Final R H E
St. Louis Cardinals (49-46)
7 10 0
Cincinnati Reds (43-51)
4 10 0
W: Hudson (9-4) L: Stephenson (2-2) SV: Miller (2)
FanGraphs Win Probability | Statcast | Box Score | Game Thread

The long-ball with the bases loaded by Tommy Edman gave the Cardinals all that they needed on Thursday night in a win over the Reds.

The Offense

Eugenio Suarez got things started for Cincinnati in the top of the 1st with a 385-foot solo home run, his 24th of the year, to put the Reds up 1-0. In the 3rd inning Joey Votto picked up an RBI on a single that scored Tanner Roark and put Cincinnati up 2-0. Suarez followed with a sacrifice fly that made it 3-0. The next time the Reds got on the board the Cardinals were up 7-3. It was the bottom of the 6th when Juan Graterol, who will be a fine trivia answer question in a few years about obscure Reds players, singled in Jose Iglesias to make it 7-4. But that was the last time that Cincinnati put a run on the board.

Jesse Winker, Yasiel Puig, and Jose Iglesias all had two hits on the night. Joey V

The Pitching

Tanner Roark got the start for the Reds and at times he looked outstanding. He allowed two runs on the day – both of those runs coming in the 5th inning when he surrendered a 2-run home run to Paul DeJong that clanged off of the left field foul pole. He finished the night with six strikeouts in his 5.0 innings and left holding onto a 3-2 lead.

Robert Stephenson came on for the 6th inning. After a pop up started the inning, Stephenson walked Dexter Fowler, then gave up three straight singles to allow a run. Pinch hitter Yairo Munoz came on to pinch hit for the pitcher and flew out for the second out of the inning. But Tommy Edman came up next and took the first pitch he saw and planted it over the wall for a go-ahead grand slam that made it 7-3.

Lucas Sims, Wandy Peralta, and Jimmy Herget all followed and combined for 3.1 innings of shutout baseball.

Notes Worth Noting

Yasiel Puig made an incredible double play late in the game.

Eugenio Suarez seems to like hitting in the 1st inning.

The Reds fall to 43-51 on the season. They are 8.0 games back in the division and ahead of only the Miami Marlins in the entire National League. The Marlins are 36-58. The Mets are still playing their game tonight, but are 44-51 on the year.

Up Next for the Cincinnati Reds

St. Louis Cardinals vs Cincinnati Reds

Friday July 19th, 7:10pm ET

Adam Wainwright (6-7, 3.99) vs Tyler Mahle (2-10, 4.82)

57 Responses

    • Jim Walker

      They probably were done previously. But now any realistically possible scenarios to the contrary are rapidly flushing down the tubes.

  1. matthew hendley

    #Free SIms/Bowman #demoteWinker

    • Scott C

      UHHH. Winker had 2 hits last night and scored a run. Played pretty decent CF for a Slow guy and had enough sense to allow Puig to catch that fly ball to hold off a run at least for the time being.

      • Pete

        Last night I made a comment I regret basically agreeing with Matthew’s sentiment. I take it back, Jesse has to play and find his way back to his 2018 production. IMO it would be far better if he did it at the MLB level and during the balance of this season. The hopes of the playoffs are gone, there is nothing let to lose making this move and everything to gain. The also must find playing time for Josh VanMeter, Phillip Ervin, Jose Peraza and to a lesser degree, but no less significant: Aristides Aquino and Brian O’Grady. Just my two cents.

      • Scott C

        Pete, I agree with you mostly. I think any playoff hopes are gone after the last week, certainly with the situation we have at catcher at the moment and the injuries to the bullpen, I don’t think we can make a recovery. There is not enough playing time for all the players you mentioned but it would help if the Reds went ahead and cut bait with Gennett. His trade value has never been high, what with the glut of second basemen, it has certainly fallen off the cliff with the injury this spring and his lack of hitting since he has returned. Then they could put Senzel back in the infield and open up center for Aguino or Siri. I’m of the opinion that Peraza’s bat does not offset his defensive liabilities. He has had a half season worth of decent play.

  2. Sliotar

    Too many black holes right now.

    Relievers out, Scooter can’t get right, catcher is just being filled in.

    It was speculated in the Game Thread that Scooter needs a re-hab stint…but what if the player doesn’t want to go on the IL? Out of sight is out of mind, especially when you are an aging player, in a contract year, who can’t get right.

    If Scooter/Puig/Roark/Iglesias are still here past trade deadline, would Reds have gumption to sit/skip/under-use them to get jump on forming the 2020 roster?

    Or, is “Mission Accomplished”, avoiding 90 losses, still the most important thing?

    Tough questions looming as the losses mount.

    • RedsFan11

      Unfortunately all past history with this ownership would indicate

      Puig would start every day over Ervin even with low possibility of re-signing.

      Scooter would start every day over josh van meter and o Grady even though they should not resign him

      Whoever this veteran minor league catcher they just signed will start majority of games over Tyler Stephenson or the other prospect we have I’m drawing a blank on his name

      I would honestly start peraza again every day over Iglasies. He has really come back to earth so unless he can sign for cheap I wouldn’t re sign

      • Reds1

        Isn’t Tyler Stephenson like In high A ball

      • MFG

        I agree with a few of your points and disagree with a few. I believe VanMeter will be a very good player and deserves a real shot. Bench Scooter and let him walk after the season. Platoon Votto and drop him in the order. Trade Puig, cut Stephenson loose and promote Sims. Sign Jose Iglasies to a short extension because he is more consistent than Peraza who should be a platoon player anyway. Ervin/Winker platoon? Wood will hopefully be back soon so we can see what he can do. If he does well we should sign him to an incentive based contract. Time to start bringing up some players from our minor league system to see what we have.

    • matthew hendley

      Roark almost certainly will be traded.

      No on Puig, either since sitting him would hurt the chance of him walking from a QO, and make him less likely to accept a discount here.
      Scooter, probably, but after he reaches 100 AB at least.

      Which iggy

      • vegastypo

        The Reds missed the boat on trading Roark. Now that the home run ball has re-emerged, I suspect his trade value is quite low. I’m not sure it was every very high, but I wonder if they’d get anything for him now …

    • George

      There was and still is some excitement about this year’s Reds team. Daily somebody talks about how many games to the wild card. Last year after 96 games the Reds record was 43 wins and 53 losses. This year after 94 games the Reds are 43 wins and 51 losses. If I remember, last year the mob was beating on the fortress gates with ropes and pitch forks to hang the manager.
      The final record for 2018 was 67 wins and 95 losses. The 2019 Reds consistent lack of hitting and the bullpen showing signs of cracking, does not offer a lot of hope. The overall weakness of the other Central Division teams adds to the delusion of a wild card for the Reds.
      The question is, can this team win 30 or more of the remaining 68 games to finish with a record of 73 wins and 89 losses or better to prevent another 90-loss season.

  3. RedsFan11

    Reds continuly fail to capitalize in the first few innings of a game.

    Ervin went 0-3 and HBP so he won’t get another start until September

    We all have a tendency to over-react either way, but this latest stretch since the 4th has seem to indicate the bullpen has run out of gas, and the offense isn’t there with even a can.

    It was a good effort. Now we need to hope Bobby doesn’t block any potential trades, especially on these one year guys

  4. Stoney

    Votto could have easily tagged and scored on Puigs bloop but didn’t costing the Reds a run. Cards player tags on a pop up to the catcher. Difference between a winning team and the Reds. Losing culture with Votto a big part of that coupled with a Manager who makes horrendous decisions (Hernandez). I was holding out hope but I concede the season is over again. Sell away!!!!

    • Jack

      Losing culture with Votto? He is one of the few left that have any experience with winning. You think he is past his prime, fine.

      This is going to be your one warning. Don’t use abbreviations to avoid the swear filter. Don’t tell people to “shove it”, either.

      • Jim Walker

        I agree that Votto’s issue is that he is aging rapidly. I didn’t see the play where he did not tag up and attempt to score; so, I won’t comment about that.

        However a younger version of Votto would have gotten the tag on the the StL runner caught off 1B to compete the double play and end the Cardinals 6th ahead of the grand slam.

        I think he tries as hard as ever; he just isn’t as capable.

      • vegastypo

        FYI, Ohio Jim, I think the play he is talking about, Votto could have tagged and gone to third on a fly ball to deep center that sent the center fielder back-pedaling. Votto went halfway and didn’t retreat toward second until the catch was made. (I’m guessing he wanted to make sure he scored if the ball had dropped.)

        Seems like he easily could have retreated toward second as the center fielder kept going back on the ball, and then been in position to hit the base as the catch was made, and take off for third, where he would have scored later in the inning.

        And given what happened with the Cardinals’ grand slam, who knows if it even mattered. But Votto is a lousy base runner.

        Note to Stoney: Not sure comparing those two plays is really fair. The catcher has to dive to make a catch going back toward the screen, ends up flat on his tummy and barely holding on to the ball and trying to slow down his momentum, and the Cardinals base runner, much speedier than Votto, could sit right on the base and see whether a catch would be made since the ball was in foul territory. He had nothing to lose. An aggressive play by the Cardinals, certainly, though.

    • Jreis

      Man stoney you beat me to the punch. I was just about to comment on Vottos lack of effort on that play. He needs to get to third base on that play no doubt.

      Joey prides himself on getting on base but is a terrible baserunner. I guess this a discussion for another day.. but I think that was the play of the game, scoring only 2 runs that Inning.

    • Hot Chili

      People take criticism on Votto as a personal matter. Yes, he’s been a fine hitter, teammate, great with fans and media. But truth is he’s been a terrible runner with dumb mistakes over and over his career, part of that losing culture you talk about.
      And being completely honest, I hate him to see him come to bat with runners in scoring position, especially in close games.
      Insults coming in 3,2,1….

      • Hot Chili

        Typo: I don´t hate him, I hate to see him bat with RISP in close games.

  5. Scott Gennett

    Well, I guess it’s just safe to say now this season is over and another last place is in the horizon. Many decisions lie ahead besides all contract year players, i.e., FO shall also think about Votto’s and Bell’s future with the club. I never liked Bell and I think he’ll never be a successful manager in the bigs.

  6. Roger Garrett

    Reds 8 position players aren’t good enough.They haven’t sorted through their players to determine who stays or who goes,they pick up waiver wire guys and guys other teams release and fall in love with them along with the rest of their players,they won’t play younger guys because they feel the vets will get it done,they have learned very little during the is rebuild,they anoint some young guys daily or throw them under the bus,once a young guy has a bad game he sets for a while,a vet has a bad game then we must try to get him going,they care about a few more wins rather then building a franchise that competes every year.They made an excellent choice in hiring David Bell but his roster has at least 5 or 6 holes.They did cut Kemp,Duke and now it seems Hernandez.They signed Gray and hired a good pitching coach.They have a bunch of money to spend next year.The fans’ excitement has lasted until almost August.

    • ToBeDetermined


      “Reds 8 position players aren’t good enough”. I think you just summed up this team in 1 sentence.

      I did not see that coming this year. I guess I need to take off my rose colored glasses.
      I saw the offense producing like they did in 2018 except:
      * with the subtraction of Hamilton and the addition of Senzel
      * with Yasiel Puig rather than Scott Schebler

      Therefore I thought they would be at a minimum at least marginally improved offensively in 2019.

  7. Grand Salami

    This team is still fun and playing near .500 ball for the season was basically my hope this season. It’s just frustrating to see the guys we thought would be leaders: Winker, Votto, Scooter being the drag on this team.

    Raisel, Roark, J. Iglesias, and Puig need to be moved if they can fetch something decent. The same goes for Dietrich if a team is looking for a utility bat (Cubs have been complaining about the lack of one all season).

  8. doofus

    The Red’s hitters are no where close to being “Savages.” They have proven this many times this season. More like harmless dweebs.

    Again, and unfortunately, Votto is a 4-ton anchor in a row boat.

  9. Pete

    Is a calm, respectfully debate over Joey Votto even possible? Is he above warranted criticism?

    • Matt WI

      No, he certainly isn’t above warranted criticism. If the critique is held to “he made X mistake on the basepaths today” is a fair and fine point. It’s when people roll up said critique into a larger editorial (a la Marty B.) that people bristle. It’s unfair to tag any one player as being responsible for a “losing culture.” But with the contract comes the target and lazy criticisms. It’s a character assessment that holds no water and comes off as trollish– same people making those comments weren’t saying that when he was rolling up MVP votes and the team was making the playoffs. But somehow when the team is losing, he suddenly “doesn’t care?”

      It’s hardly a state secret that Joey is not strong on the basepaths. He’s not hitting like we’re used to. Any Votto/Reds fan should be able to stipulate to that. All of these things are true. But if Joey is responsible for a “losing culture” so is Luis Castillo, fan favorite Scooter Gennett, etc.

      • Pete

        I would suggest any debate regarding JV not include the contract. Whether you are pro or con, what’s done is done. It’s not helpful or pertinent.

    • Big Ed

      Yes, he is above criticism on this site. His bat isn’t fast enough for the better fastballs, but we aren’t supposed to say it, strictly because his WAR when he was younger.

      Whenever I do post a Votto-is-done message, he will got 12-for-29.

      My main point on him is that if we can see it, then professional scouts and analytics staffs can figure it out, too. Teams are not pitching to him like they pitched to him in his prime, and he has not been able to adjust his way back to his old self. Pitchers don’t nibble with him anymore. In 2017, he BB/K stats were 134/83; in 2018, 108/101; and this year, 43/77.

      It is what it is. He could make up for some of it with savvy baserunning, but …

      • MFG

        Votto is one of the greatest hitters in Reds history but I think the time has come to make some decisions. He needs to sit against left handed pitchers and he needs to bat lower in the order. He cannot catch up with a fastball anymore especially inside. He plays a power position but is struggling to keep up. Look at all the other first basemen in the league. How does Votto stack up against Rizzo, Freeman, Bell and others?

      • Jim Walker

        Well said. I believe that the Run Expectancy (RE24) figures capture the arc of Votto’s career, from the very best in baseball to where he is now.

        RE24 measures how each plate appearance of a hitter measures up versus league average for how hitters fared in the same men on base/ outs situation. League average is set to 0. Above zero is better than average; below zero is worse that average.

        From 2009 thru 2017 Votto did not have a single season where his RE24 was less than 45, excluding 2014 when he missed most of the season with injuries. He was above 60 in a season 3 times in this span, most recently in 2017 when his 67.49 RE24 was the second highest of his entire career.

        However in 2018, his RE23 dropped off to 28.71. This season he is currently at 3.52

        **these figures from Fangraphs Win Expectancy table on Votto’s home page there.

      • Pete

        Reds may come to face a real conundrum if Votto’s best days are behind and he does decline further. What can they do? Bench him? Cut him? Try to trade him? Or ask him to retire and give him a great send off? I would love to see the latter, he deserves his day in the sun, fans need to see it and it will look good PR-wise for the team. A class move all the way around – similar to Derek Jeter. For many seasons, Joey Votto was one of the very few enjoyable aspects of the Reds, let’s honor him if he will allow it.

        Tigers are faced with the same issue with Miguel Cabrera and the Angels with Albert Pujols.

      • TR

        I’ll go for that. The trading of great players like Votto, unless they want to be traded, is not the way to go. Sentiment should not be overlooked in fans love for their team. The trading of Tony Perez, Pete Rose and Joe Morgan has never set well with me.

      • doofus

        Votto WAS one of the greatest hitters in Red’s history.

  10. mark

    Regarding Votto and the play where Winker deferred to Puig to catch the ball and thrown home which we knew it was coming is why in the world did Votto go over to the cutoff lane when he probably knew the throw needed to come regardless if Winker or Puig caught the ball, I think he should have been over closer to first base on that play that turned out to be pretty important to get that out at 1st base.

    • Jim Walker

      From the replay, I thought Votto just seemed to be in a weird spot all along on that play. He didn’t seem to be positioned to line up and possibly cut off the throw yet he wasn’t on the base.

      He seemed to be on the foul line but 10-15′ down the line toward home plate when he caught the throw from Graterol. Just assuming that Graterol wasn’t going to throw to an uncovered base, Votto must have been in that area already when the throw was made.

      Maybe it was it set deception play to trick the runner into thinking the base was uncoevered; and Votto just wasn’t quick enough to get to the base in time to make the tag for the out???

      • RojoBenjy

        I don’t think the Reds expected that runner to tag at first. When they saw they had the runner hung up, Votto scrambled back. It was a race to the bag. He probably could have anticipated it sooner.

  11. Roger Garrett

    Votto carried the offense for years and he no longer can do it.It just is what it is.Reds didn’t prepare for that just like they haven’t prepared for tons of other things.He still has value but the Reds must get better hitters around him to get max value out of his on base skills and his ability to work the count.Last time I looked the team was 24th or 25th in walks so its correct to say we swing as a team early and often.Setting next to last in runs scored says his OBP is wasted with some of that being on him due to his baserunning or speed.Bottom line Miggy and Albert have other guys around them but Joey doesn’t.The Reds won’t address Votto this year and probably not next year regardless of his performance because he isn’t the sole reason they are losing.When he was what he used to be the team still lost.Reds have issues at second,catcher,short and at least one outfield spot in regards to hitting so I expect them to focus on that rather then on Joey.Not saying they shouldn’t just saying that’s the last place they will go because well he is Joey.

    • Pete

      Agree, we are not at this point. But as you suggest, being better prepared would be prudent. I’d really like to see Jesse get some work at 1B, as well as O’Grady in September. Votto will not be pushed from the field and with no viable alternative, he shouldn’t.

      • Jefferson Green

        What preparation should the Reds have done? Good teams don’t groom first basemen for years in advance; it is the easiest position on the field to find/move a player to. You just move a good hit, low mobility fielder (or a mobile one if all your top hitters are mobile) into the position. The Reds could put Winker there (or Gennett, or Dietrich, or O’Grady, or Suarez, or Van Meter…). Preparation done.

      • doofus

        Winker at 1B, YES. I have only said this a few times.

      • doofus

        If 1B is such an easy position to play, why has Mr. Votto found it to be so troublesome?

      • Pete

        JG, my reference was not to the past but the future, I agree 100% with your take. It is time to take said actions as we all seem to agree.

      • Bill J

        Different sports but, Jim Brown retired after 1 of his best seasons, with 20/20 vision today wouldn’t it have been nice to have seen him retire after the 2017 season he had.

    • RojoBenjy

      “Reds didn’t prepare for that just like they haven’t prepared for tons of other things.”

      Roger- this is a great summary of all the tons of reasons why fans that understand baseball today and watch the decisions of this team are so completely and utterly exasperated. Your Castellini/Williams Cincinnati Neps.

      And there is no relief in sight, unless Jeff Bezos wants a baseball team and does a hostile takeover.

      • Jefferson Green

        Same question as above: what preparation for Votto’s decline should have been done/prioritized? If it’s time to put someone else at first, plenty of options exist in-house, not to mention on the potential FA market next winter.

    • doofus

      Grumpy old man request.

      I am sure that I am missing some important insight by my fellow Reds fans. However, I wish my fellow Reds fans would create multi-paragraph postings, instead of one great big run on paragraph that looks like a glump of words. Please strive for a 3-sentences per paragraph. It is much easier to read.

      I will not read anything that looks like it has been regurgitated by an alien cubs fan.

  12. RojoBenjy

    I was at the game.

    Scooter does not look right on his feet. A ground ball that he used to easily get to with a dive?—he pulled up and let it roll for a hit.

    Aside from Puig’s bloop double where he hustled, his body language screamed “quitter” the rest of the night—unless he happened to be sick or something. The last defender out of the dugout every time and right at the last moment. Walked super slow back to dugout after strikeout. After the catch and throw play in the 6th, he crouched down without his hat and seemed to be pouting. After the granny, he walked OFF the field through the bullpen and didn’t return until Sims was almost throwing the first pitch. So either he was ailing, or his body language and behavior says he’s not with the team in spirit anymore.

    Regarding Joey’s baserunning: it’s possible to criticize it in a reasonable way. The biggest mistake he made was not also tagging from second to third on Suárez’s sac fly that scored Winker. That stood out because he had just taken second on a throw after his single, so I thought he was waking up.

    Not sure what to say about Bob Stephenson other than he couldn’t locate his fastball, and so the slider wasn’t as effective. He wasn’t pitching slider, slider, slider, like he did at the beginning of the season. But either way doesn’t matter since it was a bad slider that got crushed.

    One more note about the sixth inning—there was a bad break on a weakly hit grounder that Stephenson induced that went to the right of the mound. The umpire did his best to avoid it, and he did, but in the process he screened the ball from view of Iglesias until it was too late for him to cleanly field it and throw to first. So it went for an infield single. Bad break.

    • Pete

      Thanks for the eyewitness account. Interesting about Puig. My preference is to see Nick Senzel be the eventual leader of this team. I don’t mind the special handshakes and rituals after HR’s but not from the leader. I really think it is better to have a serious player to assume the role. Derek Jeter was a Yankee but in my mind a great leader. Can’t ever recall him joking about, he played the game hard, smart and without unnecessary fanfare. At times the Reds have looked like losing wasn’t bothering them all that much – I hope this changes or least the perception of it.

  13. doofus

    Folks, Puig IS NOT going to resign with the Reds. His hustle and recent production is to garner a new FA contract for himself with a team that has a chance to compete. The Reds are not that team.

    • Roger Garrett

      I can agree with you doofus.I have watched very few games from start to finish but there have been times he has hustled like crazy but Rojo’s account of the game kind of gives us some clue.Gone are the days when guys go all out on every play and every day.Injuries or fear of injury get in the way sometimes but all money is pretty much a guarantee but its a new era. Since I am old school,selective hustle or hustling when I want to bothers me big time.Players are humans too and losing stinks but it should stink in a way that makes one hustle more not less.Reds have lost for a long time and there is a lot of that smell still left.Hopefully it leaves and never returns but I never for a second thought Puig would sign with the Reds.