On Friday night Tyler Mahle was removed from the game in the 5th inning after allowing a leadoff double, walking Delino DeShields Jr. and getting Elvis Andrus to pop up. He had been struggling with his control, walking three batters and hitting another one – but he hadn’t allowed runs since the 1st. Still, sitting at 96 pitches, with 2 runners on, and 2 lefties due up over the next 3 batters, David Bell went to the bullpen. Wandy Peralta struck out the first batter he faced, but then walked Asdrubal Cabrera and served up a grand slam to Rougned Odor, essentially ending the game.

After the game, Tyler Mahle was feeling frustrated. And he let it be known, throwing his manager under the bus a little bit in the process.

It certainly didn’t help that when he left the game the next pitcher gave up a grand slam. Had Wandy Peralta gotten out of the inning unscathed, while Tyler Mahle would have likely still felt he should have been given a little more room to work, his reaction post game probably would have been a little bit different. But when you literally couldn’t have done worse, it probably feeds into the “I should have been given a chance” feeling that one would get.

This is not the first time that a pitcher has not liked how manager David Bell has handled the pitching opportunities this season. Both Raisel Iglesias and Tanner Roark have voiced their frustration earlier this season. Roark had a similar complaint to that of Mahle – he wanted to be able to pitch deeper into the game. Iglesias wanted to pitch in different circumstances than he was being given.

Baseball is changing whether the players like it or not. Unless you are a bonafide Ace, managers aren’t giving you the chance to work through your struggles if you are facing the lineup for the 3rd time in the game. The numbers are quite clear – pitchers take a big step backwards once they face a lineup for a third time. Front offices and managers have figured this out and accepted that it just doesn’t make sense to “wait and see” what happens. And with the Reds, it’s been pretty clear all season that’s how things were going to be handled. They have an 8-man bullpen for a reason.

David Bell and pitching coach Derek Johnson should sit down with Tyler Mahle tomorrow and have a discussion about why this situation played out like it did. Mahle was frustrated and he said something publicly that he shouldn’t have. But maybe it’s good that he did, too. This way he should get a chance to talk with the manager about why this is happening. Had he kept to himself in front of the media on Friday night then perhaps he wouldn’t have said anything in private, either, and then this conversation wouldn’t happen. Or at least happen yet. And really, the sooner the conversation does happen, the better.

136 Responses

  1. Mason Red

    I think his quote sums up how most fans feel about the team as a whole.

    • Dewey Roberts

      I am glad Mahle said what he did. And I agree with him. Bell is over-managing. He is Sparky Anderson on steroids when if comes to pulling pitchers.

    • JayTheRed

      This is just another example of how Bell does not give his starters a chance. I have seen several games this season that have the starter is going just fine and he got pulled at 5 or maybe 6 innings if he is lucky.

      1 pitchers says something about how they are used.. That is an instance
      2 pitchers say something about how they are used. That is something that should be looked at.
      3 pitchers say something about how they are being used. Ok now that’s a pattern and not a good one either.

      I don’t care what MLB trends are! Just because a few teams tried something new and it went well. That does not mean that every team should do it.
      Also would like to say yes the stats show a pitcher tends to decline as the game goes along. As Roark and now Mahle have put it let them fight for their win or quality start. Heck let them pitch 6 at least if they are pitching well. I can think of a few games this year Louis was pitching fine and they took him out in the 6th. I remember a game or two where Gray was pitching a nice game and was removed after 5 innings.

      I honestly feel our current Cincinnati Reds manager has a quick hook and its frustrating to watch him go to guys like Peralta or Duke on a consistent basis.

  2. Dan

    If you want to find “the good” in this situation….maybe the Reds will finally designate Wandy.

    • JayTheRed

      Nope he suddenly is injured… Magically.. Erwin called up again.

  3. Reddawg12

    I think it’s concerning that the players seem to have no problem publicly voicing their displeasure about the manager. That can’t be good for the culture in the clubhouse. Mahle needs to keep his mouth shut, and pitch more efficiently if he doesn’t want to be taken out so early in games. 96 pitches in less than 5 innings is the exact opposite of efficiency. He couldn’t put anyone away. How was Bell supposed to feel good about him going through the order a third time at that point? Granted, I don’t think Wandy Peralta should even be on the roster but I guess that’s a separate issue.

    This is turning into quite a disappointing season.

    • TR

      There’s undoubtedly a lot of stress and tension in professional baseball, as in all professions, but bad mouthing the manager is not the way to go. That usually adds dissension to the clubhouse. An offense with two hits most of the game does not help either.

    • Drew Nelson

      I’m sorry if David Bells feelings might have gotten hurt. They are all adults and Tyler has every right to voice his displeasure. Given this team is 7 games under .500 it doesn’t appear our manager has grasped the best use of all his players.

      • greenmtred

        The complaints have come from pitchers, and pitching is the one thing that the Reds have done well this season, so there’s evidence that Bell actually has grasped the best use of those players. If the Reds were hitting as well as their individual histories indicate they should, the Reds would be seriously competitive.

      • Reddawg12

        What greenmtred said ^

        It has nothing to do with Bell’s feelings getting hurt. It’s about not airing your frustrations publicly. It’s a bad look in more than one way.

      • Rick

        Not to the public! He needs to man up and speak the Bell privately!

    • Pete

      Nolan Ryan? Yes, speak your mind, even publicly, Tyler Mahle? No sir, you haven’t earned it. Tell Bell your problems and if that doesn’t work, tell Williams. Don’t tell us, we don’t want to hear about your problems. Even Iglesias has enough cache to speak up some but not Mahle.

      • greenmtred

        I agree that going public with a complaint before discussing it internally is bad policy, but it would be bad if Nolan Ryan did it, too. Mahle doesn’t lose his 1st Amendment rights because he’s sometimes ineffective, just as Ryan doesn’t get more of them because he’s a HOF pitcher.

      • Pete

        Absolutely he has every right to say what he wants but with that right comes responsibilities and one is answering for his own comments: see CP’s post below.

        If Ryan had made the same comment back in his day, I would guess the manager was in trouble because I have a hard time believing Ryan wouldn’t directly approach the manager first.

        My overall point was the Reds are a heavy lift to watch and I really don’t want to hear complaining from any members of the team or staff. Keep it to yourself and improve your play on the field.

    • JayTheRed

      You didn’t mention the start when he had only gone 77 pitches and was pulled for no apparent reason.

      • Steve Mancuso

        lol. Pulled for a pinch hitter. Not no reason.

  4. Roger Garret

    Trying to win games causes issues when your team isn’t very good.I am sure he is thinking he could not have done any worse then Peralta and he is right.Any starter worth his salt doesn’t want to come out of this the game but until this team actually score some runs he is on a short leash.I am sure giving players more rope is secondary to winning games.This team is so inconsistent in how they handle players it’s mind boggling and it goes back along ways.While I share his concerns he actually is one of the few younger guys who has been given an extended look in the majors.Most have been given the job of going for doughnuts and coffee.Mahle is just frustrated and really wants to say if we could score and not have played like little leaguers in the first inning every pitch I could have been given a chance to go deeper in the game.The truth is it ain’t going to happen

  5. Ghettotrout1

    Watching David Bell pull these pitchers the way he does is terrible to watch I think someone made a good point it would be different if we actually were in contention or was a good team. There is zero chance this team wins the division so let these pitchers pitch longer and for God’s sake why is wandy on this roster he is awful and Duke is right behind him they both blow.

    • Vadapins

      Clearly I’m old school but I do understand the new baseball and how the knowledge and application of analytics are meant to improve performances. But I’m finding that the new approach is just not as much fun or entertaining to watch. There’s more walks, significantly more strikeouts more players swinging for the long ball, many more pitching changes and of course longer games. I’m sure both Mahle and Roark were taught that starters had to pitch their way through tough situations and in doing so made them better pitchers and more valuable to their team. Their reaction to Bell’s early hooks seem to suggest that they’re losing confidence in themselves and the way they learned the game. I’m curious how far the evolution of the starting pitcher goes. Do we get to the point where a starter is asked to get just 3 good innings, with teams “closing” with 5, 6 or 7 relief pitchers? Sounds ridiculous but given the recent trajectory or changes, I wouldn’t rule it out. Are the days of Koufax, Gibson, Marichal, Maddox, Clemens, etc; gone? Bottom line is that it may make for better or different statistical outcomes, but sure does make for a less interesting game for this “old schooler”. My passion for the game just ain’t what it used to be.

      • Jreis

        Amen brother. Yesterdays game seemed like a spring training exhibition game and that is the scary trend

      • JayTheRed

        Next year’s changes to the game of baseball should be interesting.

        My biggest one I can’t wait to see is, when a pitcher must face at least 3 batters before you can change pitchers unless there is an injury.

        Complete games are so rare now. Let the guys pitch if they get tired looking or can’t get their pitches over for strikes that’s when you take them out.

  6. TC Kaylor

    Eye roll. Don’t think, kid. You’re just hurting the ball club.

  7. redsfan06

    Maybe what Mahle meant was if you are going to pull me in that critical situation why throw it away by sending in Wandy Peralta.

    • Hotto4Votto

      He’d have a point. Mahle the third time through a lineup can’t be too different than Wandy the first time through.

    • Reddawg12

      This is very possible and a good point, but even if that’s the case he shouldn’t say it to a bunch of reporters. Approach Bell in private after the game.

      • lost11found

        He might have already this season. Perhaps he has and has been ignored. Then last night was the proverbial straw.

      • JayTheRed

        Good point lost11found…. We don’t know how many times a pitcher has tried to talk to Bell about this approach of his. Maybe it is a weekly occurrence. Maybe it has been at all. We don’t know and we won’t find out most likely.

        I know I am just sick of how Bell runs this pitching staff.
        Example. Oh we are losing by 1 run lets put Peralta in or Duke They should be able to handle it. Same case with 1 or 2 run leads. He uses those guys way to often.

  8. Reds Fan In FL

    “The numbers are quite clear – pitchers take a big step backwards once they face a lineup for a third time”.

    Agree with the above comment – I think the numbers are clear – Wandy Peralta should not be pitching for the Reds.

    • Vadapins

      My point is that if managers go on auto pilot and regularly pull starting pitchers after two turns of the lineup we will no longer see the development of the exceptional starting pitcher who gets better and stronger as the game goes on. Adjustments are made by both batter and pitcher, especially with the better players.

      • lost11found

        Are advanced stats becoming the new printing of the same ‘book’ that managers like to point to when a decision fails in spectacular ways?

    • James Vincent

      That is insane. No one person is the same and situations are different. It also does not account for how the pen throws. Stats are guides not step by step. People get so set in stats they don’t even understand

      • CP

        The slash line for the average hitter facing Tyler Mahle a third time is 304/.379/.571.

        That 0.950 OPS means the average hitter facing Tyler 3x is equivalent to pitching against Paul Goldschmidt, over and over again. Maybe he gets better over the course of his career, but I’ll pass.

        David Bell is doing these guys a favor and they haven’t adjusted to it yet.

      • Pete

        This is what makes RLN comments so valuable, good work CP. I would like to see an intrepid reporter ask Mahle about this.

        I like Tyler Mahle and believe he will part of the next great Reds team but this was sophomoric especially given the raw data you have uncovered. Just keep getting better Tyler the team needs you.

  9. Klugo

    Winning solves a lot of frustrations. We’re not winning. The weak link that is Wandy Peralta is just one reason why.

    • Pete

      Klu, the problem is this team can’t hit period. If we had the Mets staff of 1969, how much better would their record be? I submit, not much. I will beat this drum until they start producing runs, everything else is superfluous.

  10. Steven Ross

    Roark said basically the same thing earlier in the season when he was pulled after five innings. One would think, if Wood ever gets healthy, he’ll take Mahle’s spot in the rotation. As for Peralta, turn out the lights….

    As always, good times being a Reds fan.

  11. docproc

    I’m not a fan of Bell. He generally yanks starters too early. I get why some players aren’t happy with his managerial moves. I’m not either.

    HAVING SAID THAT….

    I watched all of last night’s game (I’m sad to report). I watched Mahle walk three batters and hit another. I watched him rack up 96 pitches in only 4.1 innings. I watched the first two batters of the 5th reach base on a double and a walk. I noted that lefties were coming to bat. At that point, I had no problem with Bell pulling Mahle for a lefty. I just wish it had been Garrett (or better yet, Cody Reed).

    I really hate that a young pitcher who has yet to prove himself is bellyaching to the press after the game.

    I am not defending Bell. I am unhappy with Mahle.

    • James Vincent

      Neve going to prove if you don’t get a chance. This kid was a top 100 prospect with 2 no no’s

  12. matt hendley

    Pretty sure that we can all say in agreement that the first time through the linup is toughest for wandy Peralta.

    Not saying he should have been left to fight for a quality start, but if the intent is to bring in Wandy, then the numbers show that you are more likely to succeed staying with your starter. If bell had bought in Garrett, or even Bowman (who i would have been completely ok with) Tyler Mahle doesn’t make this comment. Because no grand slam happens. Even Duke would have done better in that situation.

    Mahle’s belief in himself is not unfounded. This is a guy who threw 2 separate no-hitters one of them a Perfect game. Granted his development was interrupted when he was brought up to the Majors early but he should be being developed as one of these ace types. He should have been one of the ones to remain in the game to get himself out of tough situations. He should have at the very least been one of the persons that got legitimate releif pitching behind him. Is his behavior inappropriate? perhaps, but someone needs to be calling out David Bell on his incompetence soon, and it seems that the Press is unwilling to do it.

    • RojoBenjy

      Perhaps an ill-advised public comment by Mahle. But as noted by matthew, the guy has a history of being a competitor.

      Him saying in effect, “I want to get better but how can I do that if i’m never challenged” makes me like his makeup even better.

      PS- congratulations to David Bell for actually making me forget last night that a player named Jesse Winker is even on the team, as he furthers his personal campaign to get Jose Peraza into the All Star Game as a write in outfielder.

    • greenmtred

      I have small quibbles, Matt. Any pitcher can give up a grand slam. I’m not a Wandy fan, but I’d bet that his stats are better than Mahle’s when Mahle is facing the lineup the third time.

    • matt hendley

      I just want to make it clear, I understand the reasoning for Pullng Mahle and I think Mahle deep down understands. But in that situation, this is the order of appearance i think with a rested bullpen.

      1. Garrett-
      2. Bowman-
      3. Duke-
      4. Hughes-
      5. Peralta-

      5th on the list. Garrett is the most dominating Lefty the reds have. Bowman and Hughes have a tendency for Ground ball plays and while one or two of the runs may have scored Bowman has only given up a singular homer all season, and Hughes has been stingy with flyballs as well. In partucular Bowmans use in the Bullpen is a fact of some misuse. Duke’s problems have been locating the Strike Zone, something completely oposite of Peralta. May have been a coin flip.

      Hence the problem was who he was replaced with. Not with him being replaced. From my point of view. Mahle of course feels like he could of gotten the last 2 outs, but I think the unspoken point of contention is who he was replaced with.

      Oh and those claiming the Reds have a better rotation this year because of David Bell? The Reds have a better rotation because they actually went out and got better pitchers than the Scott Feldman and Tim Addlemans and attempting conversions of Releif Pitchers they continually ran out there. Unless i was asleep and missed the part where Sonny Gray came up throught the Reds system

      Matt – don’t avoid the swear filter. Choose better words.

      • greenmtred

        No argument about the wisdom of bringing somebody other than Wandy in at that point in the game. And, no, Bell isn’t responsible for the Reds having better starters than recently. But it certainly seems possible that Bell’s general policy of limiting their exposure to the other team’s batting order the third time through is helping the team’s overall pitching performance. This is, I am told, a trend throughout baseball, not just in Cincinnati.

  13. Jim Walker

    The greater concern I have is whether this situation indicates that no one has sat down with the starting pitchers and clearly articulated to them what the plan is and what the expectations are for them.

    This in turn begs the question of whether there is a fully formulated plan management is following or whether it is a seat of the pants made up as they go plan.

    • RojoBenjy

      Thanks, Jim. This really is the greater underlying concern. You articulated it very well.

    • PhP

      100% right. I think we all assume these plans were articulated, but if 3 players are speaking out, you have to question whether this has occurred. A big part of being an effective manager is communication.

    • Reddawg12

      Agreed. It’s strange because I remember reading about how Derek Johnson was such a great communicator when he got hired. It’s supposedly one of his biggest strengths. It makes me wonder if DJ and Bell are not seeing eye to eye.

    • Steve Mancuso

      We don’t know this hasn’t been explained – even over and over again – to the pitchers. Your experience in work environments might be different from mine, but just because the manager and pitching coach sits down and talks with the pitchers doesn’t mean the pitchers won’t go off on their own opinion in a frustrating moment. Let’s not jump to conclusions. Communication with players was said to be a strength of Bell and his staff.

      • doofus

        Agree. Roark is working for a new contract. He’s going to come out and voice his concern whether he has been “communicated to” or not.

      • PhP

        I’m not jumping to conclusions, i agree none of us know what conversations were had and how well it was articulated. All I’m saying is this is the 3rd pitcher to voice his displeasure. I would assume it has been talked about over and over with the pitchers but there is at least some evidence they aren’t all buying in.
        In sports, coaches and players talk all the time about the importance of buying into the system. I’m worried about if all the players have bought into the system or not.

      • Steve Mancuso

        Yes. It’s profound change. And it happened baseball-wide over a couple seasons and it has hit the Reds pitching staff full force this year. Adjustment will take place at different rates depending on the individual. That’s true for any change in any walk of life. The book Big Data tells the story of the Pirates adopting new philosophies (mostly about defensive shifts and throwing splitters) and how it was difficult to manage with major league players. It took time. Current pitchers have been taught forever that the paramount goal is to pitch deep into games. I can’t imagine it would be easy to now be told we want you to max performance over 5-6 innings, that’s all. But that’s what the data says. The most successful teams are all in (a Max Scherzer here or there excepted). It’s an accurate observation to say the Reds players haven’t all bought in at the same rate. But it’s another thing to paint a broader picture about rejecting it.

      • PhP

        Oh yeah I’m not a poster to paint a broad brush about anything. I’m just concerned about not everyone buying in right now and hope it doesn’t develop into an issue is all. I’m definitely not trying to imply I think it’s anarchy, or he’s lost the team, or they don’t respect him or anything. I’m more positive than negative on Bell as a whole and I hope he’s the right man to get them all on the same page.

      • MrRed

        Absolutely correct. And let’s not forget that this same philosophy of rotating pitchers out before the third turn has been shared by management publicly since before the season started! These guys know what the plan is. If they’re unhappy about it, there is something in their power that can change it….pitch more efficiently and effectively! I like Mahle’s potential but he still hasn’t developed effective secondary stuff and as a result, he has to pitch too fine and runs his pitch count up. This is the quintessential put up or shut situation.

    • Lwblogger2

      Ding ding ding! That’s my question too.

  14. James Vincent

    The figures it out? Lol ya that is why 8 games back? They use stats like they are rock solid and work the same for every situation and every player. Sometimes these guys can go a lot longer. How many games has bell messed up? How many runs are we missing from having a short bench. So sick of hearing but the numbers. If the numbers worked they would win. He does not know who to apply stats. Period. Need to be fired asap

      • Jim Walker

        At some point maybe they need to modify the plan a bit to mitigate for the fact the team isn’t hitting.

        Swap out a reliver for one of the RH hitting OF at AAA who are smoking right now at the plate (Ervin or Aquiño) then actually play the guy when he gets to the Reds?

        At least put the number crunchers to work on the issue (and maybe they are) of how many more runs allowed this might result in versus how many more scored it might create.

      • RojoBenjy

        @Jim

        One can only hope.

        That would be wise use of their resources.

  15. Pete

    If Tyler wants some help, learn how to hit better. This team can’t hit, see if you can help up. This should be the real frustration. Bell has to a mange the way he does because every opponent’s run is a heavy load to carry. Keep your powder, young man.

  16. Hotto4Votto

    For all those saying Mahle doesn’t have the clout to speak up, what clout has Bell earned as a manager not to be questioned as such? Mahle been’s pitching for the Reds longer than Bell’s been the manager. As Jim said above, what sort of communication is going on behind the scenes about their plans? To have three separate pitchers voice concerns less than halfway though the season seems like there’s a lack of communication/leadership going on in the dugout.
    I like Mahle’s desire to compete. I like that he wants to be challenged to improve. I like that he’s frustrated that he was taken out for a AAA reliever. I want more players like Mahle who want to be pushed and who want to compete.

    • RojoBenjy

      “I want more players like Mahle who want to be pushed and who want to compete.”

      Agreed.

    • Jim Walker

      At the least, it appears that frustrations are raising toward a boiling point and nobody in first line management has their finger on the pulse of the room to read this and get any proactive frustration avoidance measures rolling.

  17. Billy

    Tony Perez was fired at 20-24. David Bell should have been gone long ago the way this team has plated.

    • TR

      Tony Perez father was not a part of the Red’s front office and Tony’s grandfather was not a well-regarded Red’s centerfielder in the 1950’s and earl 60’s. Family connections can mean a lot, especially in Cincinnati.

    • MrRed

      That was with Jim Bowden as GM. Competent GM’s don’t put themselves in such an awkward situation to begin with. Davey Johnson was available to bring on board without having to jerk TP around like they did. Just another shameful episode in Reds history.

  18. BK

    Not only did he throw his manager under the bus, he threw Peralta under the bus. Venting to the media against your boss and coworker is unprofessional. Mahle shows real promise, but he’s not consistently putting himself in a position to work deep in games.

    • Indy Red Man

      Peralta needs to be thrown under a bus. Then a 2nd bus and a steamroller if the job isn’t complete. He has 3 quality pitches and throws 97 and still sucks? Enough of him already…Peraza too. Be gone and never return. Same goes for Jocketty. They showed the broadcast team the other day and that 86 yr old geezer was in the booth below. Are you kidding me? He’s the main reason they’re last every year. Did Ford’s Theatre invite Booth back for another play?

  19. SteveLV

    I agree with Jim that it’s concerning that the apparent frustration level is this high. Mahle may have the right to speak out, but that doesn’t make it smart, particularly after a relatively poor performance. Get yanked after 5 innings up 2-1 and then you might have a point. In this game? Mahle’s frustration should be more focused on his pitching.

  20. Tom Mitsoff

    Clearly, one of David Bell’s strategies in managing the pitching staff is not allowing pitchers to get too far through the third time through the batting order, unless they are pitching in a dominating way. Contrary to some of the opinions above, I believe this is a big reason the Reds have allowed the fewest runs in the National League. I put very little stock in individual players who are criticizing a strategy that has resulted in a fantastic turnaround in the team’s pitching results. Sure, Mahle was frustrated, but he has to know when to stop talking before throwing teammates and his manager under the bus.

    • DX

      Thank you Mr. Mitsoff for your great words. You are 100% correct. I would think a veteran like Votto, Suarez, Roark or Puig would take care of this sort of thing with the younger players.

      • Doug Gray

        Except that, well, Roark did the same thing.

    • JayTheRed

      If you go back game by game there have been several instances where the starting pitcher was pitching fine and the manager pulled them. I can think of at least two starts each for Castillo and Gray where they got taken out way to early.

      I don’t have the dates but I remember watching the games and saying to myself why is he taking them out they are pitching good games??

  21. Steve Mancuso

    David Bell made the right decision to pull Mahle at 96 pitches. Here is Mahle’s split based on times through the lineup (xFIP):

    1TT: 3.76
    2TT: 4.13
    3TT: 5.77

    That’s his career split. Here is this year:

    1TT: 3.18
    2TT: 3.52
    3TT: 5.01.

    Not only was the decision right on that grounds, but also Mahle’s splits between RH and LH batters is enormous. He was due to face LH Mazara, switch hitter who would bat LH and Odor LH.

    Mahle vs LH: 5.48
    Mahle vs RH: 3.42

    Bell’s decision was clear cut, beyond debate. Bringing in Wandy, well that’s another kettle of fish.

    If you want to read more about the Third Time Through Penalty, here’s a post I wrote about it last season:

    https://redlegnation.com/2018/06/29/pitching-revolution-and-reds/

      • Indy Red Man

        Except Wandy exudes an odor almost every time he goes to the mound. Like a dead skunks posterior

    • PhP

      I think a lot of us are frustrated with the amount of input Bell places on handedness and not necessarily quality of player. You’ve written a lot about what you think of Peralta as a player, and also Peraza. I would rather a good pitcher face a lefty than a bad left handed pitcher, and same goes for the hitters. I’d take Winker of Peraza in every situation regardless of the pitcher.

      • Steve Mancuso

        I empathize with that. I really do. And I think a case can be made to prioritize Winker’s development over short-term success in games (but that does come at a cost of run production, at least for now). But the facts are what they are, no matter how much we wish they weren’t.

        Peraza career vs. LHP: .235/.304/.333 wRC+ 69
        Winker career vs. LHP: .152/.222/.152 wRC+ 2

        In 36 plate appearances, Winker doesn’t have an extra-base hit against LHP. Peraza is terrible. But Winker is miles worse. At least as of now.

        Bell wants to win. He’s playing the numbers. I understand how people can differ about it. But the opposite strategy is playing starters in really bad platoon situations when there are better odds with players on the bench. Dusty Baker always went with established veterans no matter what (although he did play matchups with his bullpen).

      • Old-school

        Sample size and early MLB career might also explain Winkers struggles. He’s been far better than Peraza or Puig or Barnhart offensively.
        Go look at Scooter Gennett in Milwaukee. His lefty splits are horrific age 23-26. The Brewers quit on him, labeled him at 26, and he became an All star at 28 for a different team. Winker needs 1500 at bats before he’s labeled. It’s not as if the Reds are in a playoff race and have Kevin Mitchell from the right side.

    • JayTheRed

      Interestingly… He has made some nice improvements this season based on the stats you just presented. He should be given some chances to pitch at least a little deeper into games.

  22. Steve Mancuso

    Regarding Mahle and other Reds pitchers speaking out loud about the way they are used … it’s not ideal. It would be best if that communication happened between the player and his coach or manager.

    That said, it also shows the players aren’t terrified of David Bell. And while some of you might think it’s good for players to be afraid of their coaches, I don’t. Let’s hope it gets worked out, like it apparently did with Raisel Iglesias.

    • JayTheRed

      Yup it did Iglesias has been used the way he wanted to be used. More now since it came out that he was not happy with how he was being used.

  23. old-school

    Yesterday was a bad day for Mahle to vent. He wasn’t particularly sharp. But, the guy has been very good and depending upon where you draw the homegrown line with Castillo, Mahle is head and shoulders above any SP for the Reds who was actually drafted and developed. I would give him some rope. Hes young and frustrated. Tanner Roarck was/is disgruntled as well.

    Its important to note Mahle is fighting for a roster spot and in some ways an arbitration salary not that far off. Roarck is fighting for his next FA contract. While wins don’t measure a pitchers true performance, it still matters come arbitration time and FA contract time. Mahle is 2-7 yet has an xFIP of 3.71. Hes deserved better. Ill give him the benefit of the doubt.

    Wandy Peralta has the highest HR rate on the Reds, even more than Disco at 2HR/9 IP. Peralta has a 5.96/5.45/4.21 ERA/FIP/xFIP. If you are bringing in a better pitcher than Mahle, ok. The focus should not be on Mahle. It should be on Bell and Peralta.
    Peralta’s WPA for the game was -.183 and Roughny Odor’s was +.222. That at bat was the game and Bell’s decision ended the game. After Odor’s HR, the Reds had a 4.1 % chance to win the game.

    • Jim Walker

      The xFIP being substantially lower than FIP is a big warning because it is derived from FIP using a league average normalized HR/FB rate instead the pitcher’s actual HR/FB rate.

      A guy pitching in GABP as his home park is almost always going to be helped by that in the calculation of his xFIP. However that doesn’t keep any more actual fly balls in the park at GABP. It just indicates the pitcher has had “bad luck” with fly balls leaving the park. In this case bad luck is pitching at GABP as the home venue.

      • Old-school

        Good insight.
        Peralta’s HR rate is a red flag.
        They adjusted and made a move so that’s good.

        Cody Reed needs to get healthy.

  24. WVRedlegs

    One thing is clear, David z Bell has list the locker room. Players have lost confidence in him, or they wouldn’t be speaking out. He has fractured the locker room cohesiveness.
    Only pitchers speaking out? Just wait for the guys who are getting double switched for start speaking. There is also some dissent among the position players. Just wait the losing ahead will bring it to the surface. Reds are in for a rough, rough 3 weeks on the schedule.
    This won’t be the end of the dissent that the fans will hear about. More is coming.

    • Wayne nabors

      i agree wvredlegs,you know position players have got to be getting annoyed at his selection of relievers,i mean no one on this sight would have put peralta in and this isnt the 1st time he put the worst pitcher in a high leverage situation

    • Steve Mancuso

      lol. This is your made-up fantasy consistent with the blind derangement you repeatedly express toward David Bell. David Bell lost Raisel Iglesias to the point where Iglesias didn’t give up another run for a month. David Bell has lost the pitchers to the point where they are one of the top ranked staffs in MLB. That’s a gigantic improvement over the past. You have no idea what you’re talking about. None.

      • Wayne nabors

        yessir,ive pretty much watched all or part of everygame this year,and bell routinely puts in duke or peralta in wrong situation and i believe you got me mixed up with someone else,i like david bell for the most part,and i believe he will get better,and if you think it doesnt bother the players that pitchers like peralta routinely get chances to blow game ,then so be it,but i know better

      • JayTheRed

        Steve there you go again personally bashing someone. “You have no idea what your talking about.” “None”.

        Stick to your articles involving statistical analysis. Please nobody here enjoys your tirades about someone’s opinion.

  25. Jreis

    I think this year is proving that not ” having the hitting” is much more frustrating to fans and players than not “having the pitching”. Riggleman handled the pitchers basically the same last year but he was working with a much better offense so you didn’t hear any bellyaching.

    Man with each passing game this season is eerily becoming similar to the1982 season. Just not enough offense to generate a win streak but for the most part you have fairly competitive games.

  26. WVRedlegs

    Consider this, the Reds will have 2 starting pitcher openings to fill this off season. The Reds will have freed up millions of dollars of salary space. The prevailing thought has been this is when the Reds will spend big on a pitcher or 2.
    But with David Bell’s quick hook antics, what top free agent pitchers will want to pitch for him? None. The ball park will be a factor, but David Bell will be a bigger reason top.pitchers will shy away from the Reds this winter. This past winter the Reds offered a pitcher more money but that pitcher signed with the Yankees. This will be a recurring theme this.coming winter.

    • Steve Mancuso

      Please provide *any* evidence that David Bell practices “quick hook antics” compared to other major league managers with a similar staff. You must be so all-consumed by Bell that you’ve failed to notice that virtually every other manager – except those who have a pitcher like Scherzer – are managing exactly the same. This trend started several years before your hatred of David Bell began.

      • Indy Red Man

        Bell does have a quick hook, but I agree with you. The pitching has greatly improved obviously! If Mahle didn’t want to come out then PUT PEOPLE AWAY? They must’ve had atleast 20 foul balls with 2 strikes on them. Don’t be nearing 100 pitches with 1 out in the 5th!

        That being said. Why was Winker sitting last night vs a righty? Is he finally going to play Casali over Barnhart? Peraza? Really? JVM and Blandino will take pitches. They haven’t had success at the big league level, but they have the right approach. They don’t play basically full-time and rank at the very bottom in EV like Peraza. It is Bell’s job to look for offense everywhere that he can. Lorenzen is a 10x better then Peraza. I would bet Seat’s life on it:)

      • Steve Mancuso

        Bell has a quick hook in comparison to Dusty Baker and Bryan Price. But he’s managing the way the vast majority of MLB managers are doing it now. Been a lot of change in the past couple years and if you mainly just pay attention to the Reds it will seem that Bell is managing in some kind of radical way. When in fact, he’s just keeping up with the other smart teams. Reds starters average 5.4 IP per start. Only 11 teams have a higher average than that. Highest is 5.9 IP.

      • JayTheRed

        These stats provide by ESPN Team stats.

        Quality Starts – Reds are ranked 26th in MLB this season with only 20.
        Only 4 teams are worse.
        Starting Pitching Total Innings – 595.0 Ranked 28th in MLB
        Complete Games Reds – 0
        Yes I know there are a lot of teams with 0

        This does not obviously tell the whole story but it sure paints a pretty obvious picture about how the starters are being used.

        So Steve your allowed to make blanket comments about something but we are just expected to take your words as facts.
        example
        “:You must be so all-consumed by Bell that you’ve failed to notice that virtually every other manager – except those who have a pitcher like Scherzer – are managing exactly the same. ”

        Where are your statistics to back up your comments Steve.. Exactly please stop with the belittling of posters when they make blanket comments. Its one thing to disagree but its another to belittle people because of how they feel.

      • Doug Gray

        I’m not really sure what stats you’re looking at, Jay, but they aren’t exactly correct.

        The Reds rank 20th in MLB with 358.2 innings thrown by their starting pitchers prior to tonights game. Of course, the Reds had also played the fewest amount of games in baseball, so using their totals doesn’t do us much. The Mariners, for example, entered tonight having played SIX more games than the Reds. Before tonight, the Cincinnati Reds ranked 14th in baseball in innings per start. Dead middle of the league. And they’ve done so while also having the 5th best ERA among starters in all of baseball (and 2nd in the NL).

      • JayTheRed

        I was looking at total team innings not just the starters I guess. But still the quality start and lack of any complete games shows something.

      • Doug Gray

        What it shows is very little. Half of the league has 0 complete games. Five teams have more than 1. Only Philadelphia has more than 2, and they have 3.

        This is how baseball is played now. The Reds are doing literally everything the same way that everyone else is.

      • Steve Schoenbaechler

        “Only 11 teams have a higher average than that. Highest is 5.9 IP.”

        All of this is meaningless when finding out if pitchers are going to be able to pitch out of situations or not.

        You need to keep your comparisons consistent, Dude. First, you are talking about aces, then you are talking about entire staffs. If we were to call aces the #1 man on staff, I would bank on they are averaging a minimum of 6 innings pitched each time.

      • Steve Schoenbaechler

        Let’s don’t leave out, if the average if 5+, then there are pitchers who must go 6+, then (You know, that “standard deviation” that most statisticians know about, thus don’t take the average the the 100% correlation). How do you know if you have a pitcher that can go 6+? You have to allow them the opportunity. That by no means that you allow them to do it “Every Time”, but the opportunity, maybe even a couple of times, to see if they have the nerve in those situations to finish the situation.

      • Steve Mancuso

        Let me see if I have this right. “That by no means you allow them to do it every time. But maybe just a couple of times to see if they have the nerve.”

        1. The fact that David Bell pulled Mahle in the last game doesn’t mean he will do that every time. It’s one game. Pulling him from one game doesn’t mean later on Bell could leave Mahle in a “couple times” to see if he has the nerve.

        2. Situations that test a pitcher’s nerve don’t take place only in the sixth inning at 96 pitches.

        3. Tyler Mahle started the sixth inning (there’s David Bell giving him a chance) and Mahle gave up a double and a walk to a light-hitting batter. Bell’s opinion, which is about 1000X more informed and expert than yours or mine, was that Mahle was fading. Mahle’s career stats (both his handedness splits and third-time through penalty stats) show pretty clearly that Bell made the right decision by those numbers.

        4. If Bell leaves Mahle in, KNOWING that the numbers show it will hurt the Reds chances to win that game, then a bunch of fans scream about the losses and not taking Mahle out in time.

    • Steve Mancuso

      You can tell the current Reds starting pitchers are miserable under Bell and Johnson. Their ERA is 6th best in MLB, K% 5th best and xFIP 5th best. Who would want to come and be a part of those antics? lol.

    • Steve Mancuso

      Reds SP average 5.4 IP per start. Only 11 major league teams have a higher rate. Highest is 5.9. Sheer antics, I tell you. Who would want to pitch for that horror?

      • JayTheRed

        Why are our starting pitchers total innings pitching the 3rd lowest in all of baseball? Why are we ranked so low on quality starts. Please explain.

      • Doug Gray

        They aren’t the 3rd lowest in all of baseball, Jay. You were looking at the incorrect stats. Explained.

      • Doug Gray

        Because you aren’t clicking the right things?

        Go to the link you shared. Then in the splits drop down click on “as starter”. Then sort by innings pitched.

  27. Scotly50

    Bell is a rookie and acts like one. He is actually trying too hard to influence the game. It is almost vomical, like should a player roll his eyes at the plate, Bell comes running out to defend the honor of his player.

  28. Scotly50

    Bell is a rookie and acts like one. He is actually trying too hard to influence the game. It is almost vomical, like should a player roll his eyes at the plate, Bell comes running out to defend the honor of his player. I would have liked the Reds to have pursued the managerial route taken by the Braves and Cards in selecting a manager.

  29. Indy Red Man

    Yandy Diaz for Tampa….hitting .358 (.433 obp) in June. Diaz had 1 hr/109 atbats for Cleveland last year so they let him go. They found Avi Garcia (850ish ops) on the scrap heap too. They held their one big asset Chris Archer for years until the price was right and absolutely swindled the Pirates for Austin Meadowns and Tyler Glascow. Thats how the Reds got Castillo and Suarez too.

    Dick Williams…talking to you sir. Delete Jocketty’s number from your phone immediately and get to work!!!! They need to really try to feature Dietrich imo and hope he starts tearing up RHP again. He’s a year older then Scooter…doesn’t hit LHP as well and there really isn’t room for both of them.

    • Jim Walker

      Oops thought it would show the tweet not just the link.

      Peralta has been put on the IL (strained right hip flexor), Phil Ervin recalled.

      • jreis

        Jim I think Ervin needs to really play hard and keep his head in the game when he is playing this time. if he can do that I really think he can become the everyday left fielder for this club but he must mentally be ready to do this.

      • RojoBenjy

        The “IL “ is a great move.

        Maybe Peraza is feeling some hamstring tightness and we need to see the Pride of Stanford Cardinal Baseball for a few weeks.

        Ervin can be Bell’s RHH left fielder, so let’s see Blandino too.

  30. Steve Schoenbaechler

    “Unless you are a bonafide Ace”

    (I will specify, I am only speaking to last night’s situation. I haven’t looked how Mehle got pulled in his previous games.)

    That’s the point I see. How are you, how is anyone, suppose to develop into a bonafide ace if they aren’t allowed to at least try to pitch out of those opportunities? How are you, how is anyone, suppose to be able to see someone develop into a bonafide ace if the pitchers aren’t allowed to pitch out of those situations.

    Especially in that situation, alright, if we were going from Mahle to Kimbrel, wanting to make sure we get the out, alright. But, from Mahle to Peralta, that’s not that much of a difference in quality of pitcher, maybe even a downgrade.

    • Steve Mancuso

      How many pitchers ever develop into an ace? The Reds arguably have one in Luis Castillo. Although he doesn’t throw complete games. The issue your question raises is: Should a team bear the downside of 99 pitchers trying to develop into an ace by pitching them beyond when they should, at the hope that 1 of 100 will turn into an ace? I can see both sides of that, but it seems kind of clear they shouldn’t let a bunch of pitchers try to develop. My sense is the pitchers who can be aces show themselves through stuff pretty quickly (Castillo). You’re totally right about Mahle to Peralta, though.

      • RojoBenjy

        To me, Mahle to Peralta is the only beef.

      • Steve Schoenbaechler

        “beyond when they should”

        That’s the point! How does a pitcher know how far they should pitch, How does a coach know how far a pitcher should pitch, if they aren’t given the opportunities to pitch out of situations?

        As well as, if you don’t give a chance for pitchers to work out of situations, the team is going to get a rep and FA pitchers aren’t going to want to come here. And, we will never develop any pitchers.

        I never stated one word about 100 pitches, I never said one word about complete games. I specified situations. I specified giving them the opportunity, to see what they can do. Exactly what coaches are suppose to do.

      • lost11found

        Steve,

        you quoted Malhe’s splits earlier based on time through the order. Whats the sample size on each of those though? Could the third time splits be attributed to sample size variation.

        That’s the essence of what people are discussing.

      • Steve Schoenbaechler

        “The issue your question raises is: Should a team bear the downside of 99 pitchers trying to develop into an ace by pitching them beyond when they should, at the hope that 1 of 100 will turn into an ace?”

        Exactly wrong. My question, as I stated, was how do you know if you have an ace or not if you don’t allow them to try to pitch out of those situations? I would state that for all 100 pitchers you are referring to.

        As an aside, I never said to allow them the opportunity everytime. The dude is young. Not much experience. Not many knows what he can do. As well as, he could become better with experience. See if he can pitch out of it. If he can, great. If he can’t, then you know that, most likely, he’s not there yet if he will ever get there.

      • Steve Mancuso

        By your theory, you have to let all 100 of those pitchers keep pitching late into games, at huge cost of runs given up, just to maybe find 1 ace that you could have identified anyhow.

      • Steve Schoenbaechler

        And, by your thinking, you will never have an ace. Essentially, by your thinking, calling Castillo an ace is an insult to all other aces there have been ever in the league, since you would never allow them to pitch into the third time they see the lineup, much less when they have 2 on during the third time in those situations.

      • Steve Schoenbaechler

        I honestly don’t see what’s so hard to understand about this. You give a kid a shot or two to pitch out of those situations. If they produce, you have an idea what you have, a better pitcher than you thought. If they con’t produce, you and they know they still aren’t at the elite level yet.

        As well as, the kid may not have produced in those situations “this year”. Do pitchers get better with time? Many do. How would you know? One example would be to allow them to pitch out of situations like this. Every time? Of course not. Like before, you give them a couple of chances. If they make it, great. If not, then you know they can’t go any further.

        This is fairly common typical practice in most every sport.

      • Steve Mancuso

        You think Tyler Mahle hasn’t had “a shot or two” of pitching out of tough situations? You know, tough situations don’t occur only in the sixth inning.

  31. Owen

    I’m kind of surprised so many comments have devolved into criticism of Bell’s management.

    Who came into this year expecting the reds pitching staff to be the in the top 5 of the National League? Even if Bell’s pitching management is completely incompetent, it apparently doesn’t matter much.

    On the other hand, maybe the evidence in front of your everyone’s nose is actually indicative that he’s doing a good job. Wild idea, right?

  32. Big Ed

    The legit beef with Bell last night is not that he took Mahle out, but that he put Peralta in.

    Matching up with lefties and righties is not cutting edge. It would have been cutting edge to use Amir Garrett there—i.e., to use a good lefty instead of a cruddy lefty. Their only chance to win the game last night was to get a ZERO in the 5th inning. The highest chance of that happening was to use Garrett. Bell used Peralta (apparently hurt), and gave up a FOUR. Game over.

    Managers yammer every spring about changing reliever usage, but never do it. Bell had a chance to be bold, but didn’t do it.

    • Steve Schoenbaechler

      That is my first question with Bell. Exactly.

      The only other thing for me would have been, I would have liked to see if Mahle could have pitched out of that situation. When are we going to see if we have a Scherzer or a typical #5?

      Also, if we always pull pull pitchers out, never give them the chance to pitch out of situations, then we are going to find difficulty to bring in FA pitchers here in the future.

    • Steve Schoenbaechler

      Where’s the listing that ranks what all the team’s #1 pitchers are pitching? After all, #1 pitchers would probably be more likely to be allowed to pitch out of that situation. And, for those pitchers who “will become” #1 pitchers, they have been allowed at times to try to pitch out of those situations. I would be willing to bet that those #1 pitchers are very possibly averaging more than 6 innings per start.

      If we get a rep of pulling pitchers too quickly, then we are going to have difficulty of bringing in FA pitchers, being relegated, again, to trying to produce the reclamation projects, instead of bringing in legitimate FA pitchers.

      • Steve Mancuso

        I guess I can say this again, but it doesn’t seem to be sinking in. David Bell manages pitchers like virtually every other manager does now. The Reds average number of innings per start is 5.4 and league average is 5.3. 5.4 > 5.3. The Reds have kept their starting pitchers in games LONGER than average.

      • JayTheRed

        Steve there is a problem with using thr average numbers. Some starters are going only a few innings.. aka bad starts. maybe the fact is the Reds have less of those which the starters numbers kinda suggest that. Honestly I have watched most the games this year and there has been several occasions where Brll could have kept the guy in csuse the starter was rolling along pretty well. If you can’t admit that thenyour either in love with Bell and he can do no wrong or your not watching these starters close enough to see it

      • Steve Mancuso

        Hmm. “Watching the starters close enough to see it.” You know who watches the starters closest? David Bell and Derek Johnson. Probably even closer than some random anonymous fan watching on TV.

        No one says Bell is perfect. No one says there’s never been a legit time to criticize Bell.

        Guess it’s easy to be right when you mischaracterize the other side’s views.

        Again, pitchers can look good facing the bottom of the order for a second time, say in the fourth or fifth inning, then lose it quickly the next inning against the top of the order the third time through. That makes “hey, he’s rolling along” a pretty lousy way to decide.