Steve grew up in Cincinnati as a die-hard fan of Sparky’s Big Red Machine. After 25 years living outside of Ohio, mostly in Ann Arbor, he returned to the Queen City in 2004. He has resumed a first-person love affair with the Cincinnati Reds and is a season ticket holder at Great American Ball Park. The only place to find Steve’s thoughts of more than 140 characters is Redleg Nation. Follow his tweets @spmancuso.

Join the conversation! 43 Comments

  1. This has to be an April Fools joke…right? 🙁

  2. Ouch! Not good.

  3. Not the worst thing. Not a surgical issue. He didn’t pitch last year at all and so hit his limits. Hopefully mild and gets 6 months to rest and build .. Sounds like he communicated well with Reds trainers . Part of the new normal

    • After reading the quotes from Krall, it does sound more serious. Were it mild, they would have ruled out surgery, which they specifically did not. That suggests a significant elbow injury. Optimism just took a hit.

  4. I understand that arm injuries are not a new phenomenon, but have any of the precautionary measures (i.e. inning limits, pitch counts) taken in the last 10-15 years amounted to a hill of beans? Or is it just baseball voodoo to make everyone feel like they’re doing something positive. It just seems like every good-promising pitcher nowadays ultimately requires Tommy John surgery. How did the all-time great power pitchers of yesteryear make it through their careers throwing 8-9 innings per game, 300 innings per year?

    • There is actually a really good book out about this from Jeff Passan called The Arm. But basically no is the answer to your question. No one can really give a true answer on why TJ happens.

    • They also through 10 miles per hour slower than today…

    • For everyone of those guys you have a dozen whose arm fell off.

    • 1. Most of the all-time great power pitchers of the past would not be as powerful today, Nolan Ryan, Bob Feller excluded.

      2. Before Tommy John’s surgery, most pitchers’ career were over period.

    • It’s probably more complicated than innings limits and pitch counts. You would have to consider the force being generated by the various pitches thrown over the individuals life. Did the guys throwing 300 innings per year start throwing curve balls in Little League? Did they throw as hard? We’re the arm angles the same? I don’t know the answers, but what these guys do is not normal for a human arm.

    • One possible answer is that those all-time great power pitchers weren’t routinely throwing 100, or even 97 or 98. Location, location, location. Remember Cueto living at 92 or 93 and using higher octane pitches sparingly.

    • No change today from 50 or 80 years ago. The only way to eliminate injuries is a 0 pitch count or 0 innings pitched limit. Otherwise injuries will occur. I still believe stamina is the biggest key. If the body is prepared to throw 125 or 150 pitches in the heat of summer and cool of fall, the less likely an injury at pitch 80.

      The fact starters can’t go 100 pitches or 6 innings regularly, and many RPs coming out throwing high 90s, are both factors in more injuries. We may have less careers ending now, but that is due to modern surgery, medicine and rehab.

      I may be wrong, but if I were manager, I’d find pitchers that wanted to complete games and a pitching coach that stresses NOT over-throwing all game long. I also am not a proponent of throwing between starts. Give the arm complete rest for the 3 days off and run a 4 man rotation with maybe a 5th starter once a month to combine with a day off that gives the 4 starters 5 days off every month. As I said, maybe I’d be wrong, but I doubt the results would be worse and since EVERY team is going RP heavy, it is definitely time to thing SP heavy and roll back in that direction.

  5. Not the UCL. Oh my. Terrible news.
    PRP therapy awaits Hunter Greene. Hope it is successful.
    Those 17 pitches all above 100mph at the Futures Game coming back to haunt Greene . He might have gotten himself all overly ramped up to throw in that game.

  6. First Senzel and now this. Incredible. Oh, I forgot Winker.

    • And Trammell is only hitting .200 since The Futures game. Hope he isn’t hurt too.

  7. EVERYTHING IS TERRIBLE

  8. Ok, who cursed this team? Time to come clean.

  9. Maybe Hunter Greene will be a great pitcher for the Reds some day, but I am not as impressed as most are. His minor league numbers are not very good. I remember Gary Nolan as an 18 year ole major league pitcher who went 14-8 in his first season. I remember Don Gullett as a 19-20 year old major league pitcher. I just don’t see the same talent with Hunter Greene, other than he throws very fast. Now I am very sorry he has a ulnar ligament strain and I hope he recovers. But I will wait until he actually gets to the majors before I start celebrating what he is going to do there. Until then, he is a talented minor league pitcher who is struggling with winning games and his ERA.

    • Someone needs a snickers bar…

      • Nope, just old enough to remember how great Gary Nolan and Don Gullett were. We can talk about Greene’s greatness after he goes 14-8 in his first season in the majors. Greene, at this point, is just a minor league pitcher with an arm injury. My only concern is that the Reds spent a first round pick on him when the smarter move would have been to get a great position player prospect.

        The snickers bars need to go to those who are acting like the world is ending if this injury derails his career.

    • He struggled at the beginning of the year, but his numbers were impressive as the year went on. Comparing these young guys to who those who played in the 70s isn’t going to tell you much. Don Gullet as a 19 year old today would probably have drastically different results. Greene could be a bust, but the talent is there to be something special.

      • Bill, that rubs both ways. If Hunter Greene had been around in the 1970’s, I doubt that he would be throwing over 100 mph. So Greene would have drastically different results also. Players can only be judged against their own peers and eras. The point is that Nolan and Gullett were both much better against their peers at the same age. See how that works.
        At this point, Greene has proved nothing. It is major league records that count for most fans.

        • His peers are 19 and 20 year olds, which he seems to be doing extremely well in comparison to. How many 19 year old pitchers are in the Majors today? See how that works.

          I don’t see any fans showing up at the Stadium for Nolan and Gullett, but I would wager quite a few show up to see Greene pitch in Dayton and will do the same if he lives up to his potential one day in Cincinnati. .

          • See how this works, Bill. How many 18 year old pitchers have ever won 14 games or more in their rookie season in the majors? Get back to me when you have the answer. You probably are not old enough to remember Nolan or Gullett. And, by the way, both were doing well in the MAJORS at 18-19 against players older than them—not against their peers in the low minors. Once again, see how that works. And I don’t think a losing record and a high earned run average indicates a pitcher is doing well. I will be impressed when Greene does something noteworthy in the majors. At this point, I am not holding my breath until Greene becomes the greatest ever Reds pitcher. It would not surprise me if he wins less than 50 games in the majors—if he ever gets there.

          • How many 18 year old pitchers are there in the majors today. When is the last time an 18 year old pitched in the majors? Get back to me when you know that answer You obviously don’t understand how any of this works. 18 year olds don’t pitch in the majors in this era. No one predicting the Hall of Fame for Greene, but complaining that he isn’t in the majors a year after graduating High School is ridiculous.

            While your at it give us the breakdown of why Nuxhal was the greatest pitcher of all time for pitching at 15. We’re you old enough for that one? I’m sure I can get my grandpa to talk to you if you need someone older

          • Bill, good question. Do you know why there are almost no young pitchers in the majors today? I do. And the reason does not help the argument about Hunter Greene being so great. College baseball has advanced so much that the best high school players generally go that route. It was not that way 40-50 years ago. College baseball was nothing in thiose days. Hunter Greene did not go to college out of high school. He went into professional baseball. HIs 3-8 record and 4.48 ERA is not even as good as Homer Bailey at the same age.
            Meanwhile, Gary Nolan went from high school to the majors and won 14 games as a rookie. He lost out as ROY to a guy named Seaver who is in the HOF. Nolan was in his class until he hurt his arm. Gullett was also.
            Joe Nuxhall played in the majors at 15 during WWII when baseball almost had to shut down because even great players like Ted Williams were in the war. I don’t remember ever saying that Joe was the best Reds pitcher ever. He played at 15 at the same time “A league of our own” with females was holding our national pastime together.
            Greene has now hurt his arm. Maybe he will come back and be great. Maybe he will never fully recover. Odds are that this injury is going to adversely impact his career.
            Minor league players are important for an organization but I only get excited about poitchers when they do it in the majors. I have seen too many promising careers of pitchers derailed.
            You still haven’t answered how many 18 year old pitchers ever won 14 games in the majors.

          • Wrong again. The best High School players get drafted and sign for millions. Those on the lower tier of talent go to college and try to improve enough to be able to sign for millions. You just need to admit you are jealous that an 18 year old makes millions and stop talking about baseball games in 1967.

          • Because I am not impressed with Green just YET, you think I am jealous of how much he makes. WOW! I am the least materialistic person you could ever know and money is immaterial to me. I don’t know how much Greene makes and I don’t care.

            Methinks you have a man crush on Greene. Wake me up when he actually wins a game in the majors. Until then he is just a prospect who may never do much. I remember when Homer Bailey was predicted to be the #1 starter for the Reds at the same point in his minor league career.

            I prefer performance in the majors over hype.

            Just admit it—you wish you were Hunter Greene.

            I will be all in with Hunter Greene if and when he actually produces as a front line starter in the majors. Until then, I don’t get carried away with hype and fastball speed.

            Once again, the fact that almost no 18-19 year old pitchers are in the majors today only makes my case about Nolan and Gullett. I take it you are not very good at logical reasoning.

          • This will be my last response to you as you have proven to have zero ability to have an intelligent discussion. You are 100% correct that he may never amount to anything, many prospects don’t. It is obvious the only one with a crush on anyone is you with Gullet and Nolan. Your comparisons to 1960’s are completely irrelevant to today’s game yet you cannot seem to wrap your mind around that. Your entire argument is that Greene is worthless because 50 years ago someone who was 19 won 14 games. You have no worthwhile argument so you resort to childish insults and claim your superiority due to age. If you can’t agree that Greene has an incredible amount of talent you are in disagreement with every single scout on the planet. I won’t speak to your intelligence level, but I will go with the hundreds of professionals who evaluate talent for a living. Any reasonable person understands that Greene has more pitching talent than 99% of the population. They also realize his chances of being an All Star caliber pitcher is small, but far greater than almost every other 18 or 19 year old on the planet. However no reasonable person would call Greene a failure because he isn’t pitching in the majors as a 19 year old. You come across as an extremely unreasonable angry old man yelling at the neighbors to get off his lawn

        • Reminder: he just turned 19. His peers this season have almost all been 18. Seems like he is in the top tier of those guys. He is younger than the vast majority of players that were just drafted this June.

          • Correction: he is still 18 until Monday. I jumped the gun by a few days.

          • Once again, Nolan and Gullett were 18-19 in the majors and doing great against players older than them.

  10. how could anyone not see this coming?

    • That is why I haven’t joined the Hunter Greene club just yet. I feared he would have an arm injury. I will get excited about him only when he starts winning in the majors.

  11. Unfortunate for sure, but it may be an indicator that Hunter Greene will be the Red’s shortstop of the future.

  12. I’m happy to see a conservative approach that starts with rehab. He’s young and that weighs on the good side. There is time.

  13. Very, very disappointing news. All fans were hoping for a special pitcher to rise quickly to the majors and the top of the rotation, but let’s all take a breath for a moment. Pitchers, especially hard throwers, tend to have an injury (or a couple) on their way up the ladder. This is a setback, a slowdown to the hoped-for meteoric rise, but not at all the end. May it be a real learning experience for him to keep his body and arm in great shape, and his head in a place that values his health over his radar gun oohs and aahhs.

    • Gary Nolan blew his arm out in scoring training after his rookie year by trying to give max effort on every pitch. Greene throwing 19 pitches over 100 mph during the Futures game did not excite me. It concerned me. It worried me.

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About Steve Mancuso

Steve grew up in Cincinnati as a die-hard fan of Sparky's Big Red Machine. After 25 years living outside of Ohio, mostly in Ann Arbor, he returned to the Queen City in 2004. He has resumed a first-person love affair with the Cincinnati Reds and is a season ticket holder at Great American Ball Park. The only place to find Steve's thoughts of more than 140 characters is Redleg Nation. Follow his tweets @spmancuso.

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2018 Reds

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