2017 Reds / 2018 Reds

Next Year: Will The Rotation Be Better?

Baseball season is almost over, and, as has been the case for a few years, the question for Reds fans is: Will next year be any better?

Yes. It will.

In fact, I genuinely believe the Reds will be vastly improved next year. They may even contend for a wildcard spot. I’ll make this case in two columns: Today, I’m focusing on the pitching rotation, and in a couple of weeks, you’ll see one about position players.

Okay, let’s tackle this. The starting pitching has been beyond terrible this year. You know this. As has been said in other corners, if Tim Adleman leads your team in innings pitched, it’s gonna be a rough year (which isn’t meant as a put down of Adleman, but he’s not a top-of-the-rotation pitcher).

But the season is long and things change. In the first half, the Reds starters had an FIP (fielding independent pitching—basically ERA if you cancel out the fielding) of 5.95; in the second half, it’s sitting at 4.79. That’s a big swing. Granted, it took them only from being bad in a biblical way to being bad in a merely below-average way. But it’s something.

Now consider this: Luis Castillo will be in the rotation next year.

Read the rest over at Cincinnati Magazine, then come back and tell me what you think.

57 thoughts on “Next Year: Will The Rotation Be Better?

  1. I’m tracking with you here … while the bar is, as you noted, “biblically” low this year and we can’t help but do somewhat better, the improvements and maturity we’ve seen look real. And I like there are plenty of options. It will be interesting which “names” we can target and how that plays out. The paper tiger says this is a team that can pitch well, pitch far deeper and get us some much needed wins in 2018.

    Until then there is college football and college basketball – which is exactly what MBE told us to look for.

  2. I’m not on board with acquiring another pitcher. I believe we have enough arms as it is. The money should be spent on the bullpen; two or three top-end relievers for a staff whose bullpen has been at the bottom of the league for the last two years.

    • I agree that the Reds MIGHT have enough arms, but right now, there is no one in the rotation for 2018 who pitched a full season in the big leagues this year. Which is to say, there’s massive uncertainty. Bringing in a quality player would guard against that.

      • I’ve been thinking about the rotation next year and of course think an out of the box solution is best.

        Bailey
        Castillo
        Romano
        Stephenson
        Desclafani/Finnegan
        Free Agent

        Note a 6 man rotation. With the duct tape that seems to hold Disco and Finnegan together and the innings limits the youngsters will be on, why not go 6?

  3. I’m higher on Stephenson but admit his control can be shaky at times. But for a 5th starter, he’s pretty damn good and if he is able to maintain good control… He’s got wicked stuff. If we do trade for a ‘stud’ or get one who’s a free agent, this staff could rock.

    Now, let’s hope this idea of Winker batting 1st is not a passing fancy.

    • I’m afraid that if Hamilton is healthy and Price is still the manager that Winker batting first is a passing fancy.

  4. I don’t think “better” is in question, in large part because the starting pitching bar was soooo low this year. But I’m even more optimistic than you Jason about next year’s rotation. I think Bailey will actually be good – 2nd or 3rd starter level – and if they’re healthy I think Disco and Finnegan are likely to be good as well. They could fill two slots, but I hope they won’t because… I’m expecting other options to be better. I don’t see Rookie Davis in the rotation unless injuries pile up in which case none of this matters. But Garrett, Lorenzen and Reed all have enough upside that I’ll be surprised if one of them doesn’t claim a starting slot. That’s assuming of course that they don’t just get the forgotten man treatment from Price and DW. Which I suppose is a way of saying that while sorting is incomplete, the process has now turned to finding very good among pretty good, instead of finding might be good among “we have no idea”. March 2018 can’t get here soon enough.

    • I think the top starter possibilities for next year are: Castillo, Bailey, Romano, Mahle, Strephenson, Finnegan, and DeScaflani. I don’t see Garrett, Lorenzen or Reed being starters next year. We should have a lot of arms to fill the bullpen.

      I want the Reds to quit the rebuilding process (via trading away all their trade chips) and focus on winning NOW. If that means acquiring a top-flight pitcher, so be it. The starting lineup is already in place if Cozart and Gennett are retained. There are some very quality arms who have displayed elite talent in the last month to six weeks. It is time to build a winner again. I am tired of losing year after unending year.

  5. Actually in 2017 the year of juiced baseballs and inflated home runs Castillo pitched better than over half the other NL aces. He projects like the Yankees Severino, a top 5 pitcher in the AL.

    The worst thing the Reds can do now is overpay for pitching. Already saddled with Homer’s contract lets not repeat the same error.

    They lucked into finding out Stephenson can pitch well at this level despite Price’s attempts to bury him. To Price’s credit we discovered last year Finnegan has great starting potential.

    Between Castillo, Romano, Mahle, Stephenson, Finnegan, DeSclafani, Bailey, Garrett, Reed, Davis the Reds have the best staff in the NL Central. Maybe the Brewers come close. Whoever doesn’t begin the season starting will have ample opportunities – there will be injuries, poor starts, and given innings restrictions for some of the youngsters like Mahle and Castillo, the Reds will need pitching depth. It might even make sense to go to a six man rotation. In case they make the playoffs.

    The Mets in the ’80s did fine with a young staff, as well as the Braves in the 90’s after Charlie Leibrandt finished out his tenure. Let the kids grow together and have Homer serve as mentor if not Arroyo or even Feldman who helped out Mahle or Stephenson in their most recent start.

    • Finny got 31 starts and that’s how you find out about a young guy.If he had been a rookie this year he would have been in the minors learning to throw strikes.If we are healthy next year we will have 5 good starters with a chance to win every night.

    • I’m as excited as anyone about several of our young starting pitcher prospects (especially Castillo and Romano), but to say that the Reds have the best staff in the NL Central is truly looking at things through red rose colored glasses! With the hated Cardinals starting staff of Lynn, Wacha, Martinez, Weaver, and Flaherty…and the stupid Cubs starting staff of Quintana, Hendricks, Lackey, Lester, and Arieta coming back later this week…how can you make that statement? With a little more experience, maybe in a couple of years we will coming closer to having the best staff in the NL Central, but for now, we’re not there yet. Here’s hoping that the improvement continues and that everyone stays healthy next year! Go Reds!

      • The Cards are probably gonna let Lynn go via free agency and he has been their best starter this year. Wacha may or may not turn it around for good he was almost replaced in the rotation before stringing together decent starts midway thru the season. Martinez has also been inconsistent as the Cards haven’t provided him much run support. Flaherty remains to be seen. Weaver looks great so far.

        Quintana is capable of being a stud but has been up and down. Lackey and Lester are on the downside of their careers, not sure if the Cubs will retain Arrieta beyond end of contract. No doubt they will reload via free agency as well the Cards. Nice to see Mike Leake string together four or five straight solid starts once the Cards gave up on him!

  6. In terms of talent, ability to stay healthy, and expected contribution in 2018, here’s how I rank our SP candidates:

    Castillo
    Disco
    Stephenson (Aug/Sept. suppressing hits/HRs while striking out a lot.)
    Bailey (stuff is still there, his Sept. #s have settled back to his career norms)
    Lorenzen (better peripherals than those below him)
    Romano (lucky? the strikeouts to IP are actually quite low, hits allowed high)
    Mahle (didn’t allow a single HR, not striking out guys though and giving up hits)
    ______________cutoff line—-guys who I’d move to the ‘pen for good.
    Finnegan (the walk rate will always be a problem)
    Reed (bring him along like Peralta—low leverage then work his way up)
    Garrett (continue starting at AAA however)
    Davis (let his fastball/plus slider play up in short outings)

    So much uncertainty there, but there’s no way we’ll have a repeat of the last couple years, right? RIGHT?

    • Remember that relievers tend tot always have better peripherals than starters, so you have to knock Lorenzen down a peg. Plus, I know people want it to, but that isn’t happening.

      As for Romano, his K numbers are totally fine, especially since he’s adjusted during this second go round.

      Disco has pitched 1/2 of a season out of the last two. I agree on talent, but he’s gotta be several notches lower because of health. Especially because we know his UCL is partially torn.

      • I think Lorenzen’s numbers might tick down a little bit but I don’t think the drop will be as high as it is with other relievers going to the rotation or with the associated jump that starters turned relievers get. While Lorenzen will suffer having to face hitters 2 and 3 times a game, his stuff probably doesn’t drop off too much in the rotation. A lot of the failings for relievers turned starters or what ends up pushing starters to the pen, is the quality of secondary offerings. This often specifically is related to a quality 3rd pitch. Unlike most RP, Lorenzen doesn’t go with a 2 or even 3 pitch mix. He pretty much pitches like a SP with regards to pitch mix. It may help offset some (not all of course) of that drop from the move to the rotation.

        That said, the whole conversation is likely, as you point out, moot.

    • The thing I would add on Finnegan, is the shoulder surgery.
      Just like Iglesias he may be better in the BP.
      If you put the BP together properly, you may have another NASTY Boys.

    • Mahle seemed like he had to get his feet under him every time he got moved up but then took off. I just think he hasn’t had enough time yet in the Majors. He seems very mature and just needs to realize he’s got the stuff he needs. (I also think he’s been squeezed but then I’m biased as hell).

    • Agreed, Sultan. With one exception. Lorenzon has not been the consistent, And in the starting rotation, his stuff wears thin when batters see him for a second or third time. While I like him a lot, his record thus far points straight to the bull pen.

    • I like your list, Sultan, though I prefer Romano to Stephenson. Fangraphs recommends that you drop a reliever’s SIERA by 0.37 if you want to convert it to a starting pitchers. If you do that, Lorenzen still rates better than Stephenson and Romano, so if you knock him down a peg, he’s still competing. Not saying Lorenzen would be better, just that he’s in the discussion.

      I don’t think we can trust Disco to through 100+ innings. Castillo, Bailey, Romano are my top three. I probably keep Mahle down in AAA for service time considerations unless there are injuries. Lorenzen, Finnegan, Garrett, and Stephenson compete for the final two (and I fear Finnegan needs to go to the pen because of shoulder issues).

    • I’m with you on BobSteve. He’s got to get the walks down at least a bit but has the stuff to live more dangerously than most and still thrive. Missing bats like he does is largely something that can’t be taught. On the other hand, reducing BB’s can be coached. Although he is a couple of years older than Bailey was at this juncture in terms of MLB exposure, he reminds me a lot of the younger Bailey.

      Progress isn’t always linear; but, I wish he had another month or two and innings overhead to keep pitching right now to firmly implant the growth he has experienced since July into his psyche.

      • I’ll add that there is more than one type of BB. He was wild previously, averaging 3.5 BB per 9, and he’s less wild now, averaging the same. His pitches are executed better, just missing more often now, less chuck and chase pitches (true WPs) and overall seems to be nibbling and “pitching” more. These are qualitative notes and sometimes don’t show up in the stats.

        To me, Castillo is as close to a front line starter that we have. Bob Steve IMHO is a very close second. He’s a guy, like a Nolan Ryan type, who if he keeps putting miles on the tires, he discovers his accuracy with confidence and “helpful wildness” so to speak.

  7. If the right trading partner can be found, and the right deal can be struck for a solid starter, go for the gusto. The Reds will have a surplus of players at certain positions at AAA and the ML level to deal from this winter. They also can dip lower into the minors for some top talent to sweeten any deal. They will have to give up something good to obtain something good.
    If the Reds make a big deal, it might be advantageous for the Reds to make such a deal before the 40-man roster has to be set again. Not sure on the date for that, sometime in mid to late November. Winter Meetings are usually sometime in the first 10 days of December. An early deal can also assist in which players they will have to protect from the Rule V draft at the winter meetings when they set the new 40-man roster.
    Barring any unforeseen circumstances, Homer Bailey continues to shake off the rust and is getting noticeably better. He seems like a lock at #2 or #3. Castillo has locked himself in at the spot behind Bailey. Romano continues to nail down his spot just behind these two. So, we have #2 Bailey- #3 Castillo- #4 Romano or #2 Bailey- #3 Castillo- #5 Romano. That is leaving the door open for a #1 acquisition via trade in both scenarios and not free agency. And the #5 spot up for grabs between DeSclafani or Finnegan, or the #4 spot in the second scenario.
    A package of Robert Stephenson, Amir Garrett, Scooter Gennett, and one of Adam Duvall/Scott Schebler/Phillip Ervin could get a very well regarded starting pitcher. And the Reds can have those spots filled where all four of those players would play for the Reds without missing much at all. There is a trade out there for a solid starting pitcher just waiting on the Reds to take note, close the deal and make it this off-season. There is plenty of depth to alter any trade package to what a trading partner is looking for.

    • I think a “Robert Stephenson, Amir Garrett, Scooter Gennett, and one of Adam Duvall/Scott Schebler/Phillip Ervin” package would be valuable, but I am not sure it brings back a #1 starter under team control. It could easily bring back a guy with one year of control from a team trying to rebuild. I don’t think the Reds are in a position to go all in next year. If Bailey, Disco, Finnegan, all return to their previous levels and Castillo continues to pitch the way he has come trade deadline and you can make that trade for Kershaw then you go for it. I don’t think you give up all that for another #3 starter while you possibly have five other guys to fill that role already on the 40 man

      • Another potential problem with a package that includes a lot of young talent is that it may set us up to endure another rebuild in the relatively near future. The point, I would think, is to have enough talent in the minors to keep the big team stocked consistently.

    • That package may bring a good starter at a cost of what 20 mil or so and you lose Scooter and one of our corner outfielders and a potential starter.Don’t disagree it would be great to have a guy like that but that’s a steep price to pay.

      • I think the point was to land a starter who was maybe 1st or 2nd year arb and not making big money yet. Of course, I think to get a guy like that the package as discussed won’t do. I think you’d probably have to part with at least a Trammel and the ask in any such deal with probably start with Senzel + 2 other top prospects or +1 and a starting MLB player.

        • I missed that part because I thought he was talking about acquiring a #1 starter.

          • If we’re talking a guy like Archer or Stroman, then he is talking about acquiring a number 1. But a #1 who is cost controlled.

  8. I feel like a lot of these rotation questions should have been sorted out this year. This was supposed to have been a year of sorting. We gave too many starts to veterans who were never going to be in the long term plans of the club. Instead of having a full year of data on the young pitchers, we are left with a month or two at best. I’m just speaking for myself but the decision making of this organization made it really hard for me to watch what was put out on the field this year.

    • The guys who were supposed to be ready to start the year got there shot. Romano was hurt early. Mahle and Castillo weren’t ready for callups yet. That’s how it goes sometimes, but there’s no case that those last two should have been in the rotation on day 1.

      • I don’t know about Castillo? He’s 24 with over 400ip in the minors. They fed Lorenzen to the wolves at 23 with less then 200ip in the minors? Arroyo was never more then a silly marketing gig. A sports version “Come meet Brady Bunch’s Barry Williams (Greg Brady) at Best Buy”. Idiotic…he could barely throw the ball 84 mph.

        • I take your point on Castillo, but he only had 14 innings above A+ coming into the year.

          I agree that Lorenzen probably was rushed a little, especially with the conversion to starting pitcher.

  9. I guess I don’t see the renewed optimism for Homer, since his 10er debacle vs St. Louis…he’s had 7 starts with a 4.58 era. That’s not horrible, but its 5th starter level.

    I think I agree with a previous poster..Michael Hess. If we can’t get a really top-notch guy like Marcus Stroman, then take Cozart’s $ and get some high quality bullpen help. I’m still big on Finnegan as a starter, but maybe he could be helpful in the pen? We need a lefty like Mike Montgomery that can be a spot starter, loogy kind of guy. Plus another high leverage guy to help Peralta and Iggy. I personally think Lorenzen could be the 3rd-4th best starter on this team, but maybe he stays in the pen? This was a rough year for him! He needs to stick with 3 consistent pitches from 1 delivery and go with it! If Price can figure out an optimal lineup, then the offense should have no problems! I don’t know about playoffs next year, but atleast flirt with .500 and be in the discussion!

    • Offense is WAY up this year. MLB average for a starting pitcher is a 4.50 ERA, so Homer has been roughly average. AKA a #3 starter.

      • Cubs have 4 guys under a 4era and their 5th guy (Lester) is 4.30….if you count Montgomery. Brewers have 4 guys under 4.00 if you count Suter’s 12 starts. 4.50 might be average but not on a NL bound playoff team.

        • Not as a #3 anyway. That means you have 2 guys worse? That won’t cut it.

        • Perhaps not a playoff team, I’ll grant you, but on a team around .500, certainly. And some contenders will have average pitching staffs being carried by excellent lineups.

          • Average major league pitching wins a lot of games but costs lots of money.I think we have 4 or 5 guys that can approach that with only Homer making any money.I also expect our young guys to get better as they pitch more.The Cubs pitchers will not get better because Lackey,Lester and even Arietta are on the downside of their careers but they will just go buy or trade to get what they need.I would love to have a true ace or #2 put it would cost a bunch in players and a bunch in dollars to see him pitch in Cincy.Don’t see it happening.

    • My optimism about Homer comes from watching the quality of his pitches. He’s had some command issues, but I would think that that’s predictable for a guy who has a much rust to shake off as he does.

  10. Compare the numbers from Tyler Mahle’s first (and only) 4 MLB starts with the numbers from Amir Garrett’s first 4 MLB starts. Mix in the age old warning that nothing which happens in September outside of a pennant race is to be taken seriously at face value.

    http://www.fangraphs.com/statsd.aspx?playerid=16358&position=P

    http://www.fangraphs.com/statsd.aspx?playerid=14375&position=P&type=&gds=2017-04-07&gde=2017-04-24&season=

    Now tell me again with a straight face why Mahle should be considered a lock for the 2018 rotation……

    • Mahle shouldn’t be guaranteed anything. Several of his peripherals are pretty bad, though we probably shouldn’t get too worked up over such a small sample, good or bad. It wouldn’t be unreasonable for him to be in the rotation or back in AAA refining his breaking pitches, which scouts seem to be concerned about.

      • This is pretty much where I’m at on Mahle. Hopeful but cautious. The bottom line is we just haven’t seen enough of him at MLB period. That was my point with the Garrett comp.

        Given how the Reds have handled service time with their other young pitchers, I’ve been curious what they might be up to with Mahle since they’ve burned a bit over a month of service time to see him make four starts this season. Still, they would only have to hold him back until early May to keep him under a year at the end 2018.

        So, unless another rash of injuries dictate their pitching plans during the spring, you may be correct about Mahle starting the season at AAA, especially if he isbn’t head and shoulders above the pack in spring performance.

        • Mahle isn’t a converted basketball player with pitching mechanics that are different from week to week. He’s also got a slight bit of Arrieta-style crossfire action vs righties that should always be a little difficult on them. I like him a lot! He looks like a 30 yr old/6 year vet on the mound! Romano would be my #2 overall though…just a big strong kid that can throw 96 all night long and keep the ball down! Bob Steve, Lorenzen, Disco, and Finnegan. Surely, we can atleast get far away from the cellar dwellers in team ERA next year?

          I’m still big on Lorenzen as a starter! 8 hrs in 78 ip is pretty good when half your games are in GABP! He needs to just watch Lance Lynn and turn that 96 mph sinker loose! “Quit thinking meat! It can only hurt the team”

        • Those 4 starts are going to end up being invaluable for Mahle this winter. He now has a better knowledge about MLB hitters and what he will have to work on this winter. Mahle as the #6 or #7 starter will be right there if DeSclafani or Finnegan have arm issues in spring training. Stephenson or Romano could be that #6.
          It will be a dicey pecking order going into spring training.
          Bailey-DeSclafani-Finnegan-Castillo-Romano-Stephenson-Mahle-Garrett-Reed-Davis. I can see a trade happening that gets something better than Bailey and pairs with Bailey to stabilize that veteran presence in the rotation. DeSclafani and Finnegan can’t be seen as stabilizing factors at least until the end of spring training, or later. The Reds absolutely need to stabilize their rotation before spring training. Thus, the pitching dilemma the Reds will find themselves in this off-season. Keep prospects and hope they are the magic beans. Or spend a few prospects in order to get a solid MLB pitcher.

  11. I believe the FO should look at a 2018 rotation without DeSclafani, Finnegan and perhaps Bailey. In other words they have to look for 3-starters; mostly 2 from within the organization and 1 from outside.

    These 3 pitchers if proven healthy will only be a plus for the team.

    • I agree except that Bailey seems to be growing back into his prior self at least in terms of effectiveness. Still as Homer himself acknowledged after his most recent start, the really big test will be shutting down for the winter then starting back up in the spring. But start from expecting nothing, build accordingly, and to the degree any of those 3 contribute, it creates a good problem to have versus a bad one if they are counted on then fold again,

  12. Some people have mentioned trade packages.
    Others have mentioned the declining state of the Cubs rotation.
    And this has been a year when offense was up.

    Put this together, and realize that the ASKING price for a good starter is going to go up this winter. The wealthy teams (like the Cubs, Yankees, etc) are going to go shopping on the free agent market for one or two more good starters for fortify their rotations.
    A player with good offensive numbers for 2017 will not be viewed as THAT valuable. And a player that plays 81 games in GABP will also be viewed as not quite as valuable.

    I would be wary of trying to package too much to get one player. But then again, a winning team has to have a lot of high WAR pitchers and position players to get to 90+ victories in a season.

    The Reds have an iffy but PROMISING rotation for 2018. And yes, I would like to see them make a move to push them toward contending next year. They are not that far away. But it is the starting rotation, of course. The many poor starts this year have once again put a lot of stress on the bull pen.

    • I totally agree. Marcus Stroman would be fantastic, but 10 teams will offer up a ton for him. They def can’t afford another Homer-style contract either.

      I watched a little of Det/White Sox game the other night and Tiger lefty Matthew Boyd was 1 out from a no-hitter. He has really good breaking stuff! He’s only 26. They could go out and try to get a couple guys like that to increase their depth. TIgers are old and their farm system isn’t rated very highly either. Toronto is in the same boat as well!

      • Agree. While I certainly want to compete in 2018, I still think we are a year away from the push to get a top-of-the-rotation arm. I would not yet trade from our depth of prospects that we just spent 3 years accumulating. If the right opportunity for a mid-rotation starter like Boyd arises, I would prefer packaging areas of MLB depth (Duvall/Schebler and Scooter) rather than moving someone like Trammel or Mahle. Although, as someone mentioned above, the handling of Mahle this season has been curious. I would not be surprised to see them cash in on Mahle’s prospect hype and exceptional 2017 performance (packaged with an outfielder) to get a cost-controlled starter.

        Personally, I would prefer trying to sign a guy like Alex Cobb, even if it means overpaying. Not great peripherals, but he doesn’t walk a lot of guys and will be entering his age-30 season. Plus, they would not have to deplete the prospect pool to acquire him. Then, your rotation looks like this:

        Castillo
        Bailey/Disco/Finny
        Cobb
        Romano
        Mahle/BobSteve/Garrett

        During or after the 2018 season, if one of Disco or Finnegan returns to form and the young guys take steps forward, all of the sudden you have real SP depth to leverage in a trade for a Stroman or Archer-type.

  13. The answer is yes. The Reds rotation will be better in 2018 for the same reason it was lousy this year-depth (or lack thereof). There should be fierce competition for starts next year, not only in ST but throughout April, May, & into June( barring injuries of course). The starting rotation won’t be a team strength until at least the 2nd half of next year, but they will be competitive. That may be enough.

  14. I was a proponent mid-year of a mega trade for a controllable starter.
    Yet, Luis Castillo has established himself as a potential top tier starter.
    Tyler Mahle did everything asked of him and more and he has nothing left to prove in AAA. Give him the ball in ST. Sal Romano looks like Aaron Harang’s little brother the last month.
    Robert Stephenson has shown more in 6 weeks than he has in 3 years. He only needs to command his 2 seam fastball a little better and his walks are cut in half and his potential is finally realized as a potential top tier starter. Finnegan deserves another shot. Disco who knows. Bailey is progressing.

    Now is not the time to abandon the young pitching. Give these guys more time, unless another club really gives you a great deal.

    • Castillo, Mahle, Stephenson (at last) and Romano all look good for next year. Pick one to regress or get injured. Bailey may be getting closer to his 2012-2013 abilities, but really, who knows? I would bet that Finnegan ends up in the bullpen, due to physical problems, much like Lorenzen in 2016-2017. Maybe back contending for a SP job in 2019. That’s where he wants to be.
      Lorenzen again gets a shot at the Starting rotation in ST 2018.
      I hope Anthony Desclafani can come back, but to be pragmatic, expect nothing from him.

      Darkhorses: Cody Reed and Amir Garret. One of them may step up and surprise. I think Garrett was hurt for a good part of the season and the Reds covered it up.
      Longshot: Rookie Davis, Jackson Stephens

      Over the horizon: Jose Lopez pitched in High A this year, then moved up to AA and pitched better (the pitchers league). A couple times he has been discussed on TV. There are a lot of comparisons of him to Luis Castillo. A year away, or less?
      Antonio Santillian. Two years away, at least.

Comments are closed.