2017 Reds

The Scooter Gennett Conundrum

You already know about The Legend of Scooter Gennett. Born on a mountain top in Tennessee, greenest state in the land of the free. Raised in the woods, so he knew every tree. Killed him a bear when he was only three.

No, wait. That’s a different legend.

The Legend of Scooter Gennett, about which you should be familiar by now, began taking shape on March 28, 2017, when the (then-)26 year-old second baseman was waived by the only professional team he’d ever known, the Milwaukee Brewers. He was claimed by his hometown team and made his Cincinnati debut less than a week later, when he entered the game in the 7th inning as a pinch-hitter. That first at-bat, he hit into a double play. Later, however, Scooter hit a two-run ninth-inning home run and was off to the races.

At the time, the acquisition of Gennett appeared to be a solid move by Reds general manager Dick Williams to shore up the bench with a somewhat-versatile and still young infielder who had been the starting second baseman for a division rival for parts of four seasons. Five months later, Scooter has presented the Reds with a conundrum they hadn’t anticipated.

Read the rest over at Cincinnati Magazine, then come back and tell me how wrong I am.

118 thoughts on “The Scooter Gennett Conundrum

  1. It may be a callous call, but trade him (based upon the information in your article). The Reds have a boon of infielders, and when a team has the luxury to offer a guy like Gennett, they should take it.

    • This *also* may be callous, but as a business owner, at some point you also have to think about which player is going to put more butts in seats and sell more jerseys.

      Yeah, yeah, I know…and I *agree*…WINS are the thing that puts butts in seats…but just looking at the middle infield for a moment: which 2B/SS combo could potentially put more butts in seats and sell more jerseys?

      I say people have been cautiously optimistic about Scooter, given the well-documented penchant of Well-The-Reds™ to trade everyone (yeah, I wasn’t sure if that HTML tag was going to work or not) but I say if Gennett is the starter at the 4-spot in ’18, his jersey sales blow UP.

      • Owners and decision makers have to balance current and future sales/demand.

        Sure, Scooter sells more jerseys in 2018… but if keeping him isn’t the right path to lead the Reds back to the playoffs (it might be), then you’re taking away future jersey sales of players on that playoff team.

        Running a successful business is hard, I guess!

      • I doubt there’s a 2B/SS combo on earth that would put butts in the seats in Cincinnati. Maybe Joe Morgan and Dave Concepcion, but only because of the novelty of middle infielders who are each in their 70s.

        Is there really a person outside of his mother who would come to the park because Scooter Gennett is the 2B?

        That’s a serious question, btw. What do you guys think?

          • Then again, Votto is that caliber of player and I see a whole lot of empty seats these last several seasons. It all comes back to just winning a lot of games if the Reds hope to draw more fan interest.

        • Chad, very very few fans attend a ballgame to watch Joey Votto hit a baseball, Billy Hamilton fly around the bases and make incredible defensive plays or Aroldis Chapman throw a baseball over 100mph. They come to watch their home team do well. The Reds true attendance struggles to go north of 10,000 for good reason by this time of year.

    • Boon of infielders?, there is an aging 1B who is great hitter and an upcoming solid/ possibly future allstar at 3b being pushed out of position by what appears to be a cant miss prospect if he can recovery from vertigo issues.
      Where is the boon? an average fielding Peraza who has 0 power and just recently started getting on base at replacement level, Dilson who has a few hundred AB’s at AAA?, trade Scooter if you get a good deal but not because there are more valuable players on the roster

  2. Excellent summation, Chad. I agree with the conclusion, too. If he can be a piece in a great trade, why not? But it’s not a tragedy if the Reds keep him, either. The other options at 2nd are all question marks,to one degree or another, and Scooter would be a quality bench player/sometime starter.

  3. You aren’t wrong … and a trade is a more likely option given his high-end value at the moment. In the end, somebody has to get traded. That only gets worse if we get a Cincy friendly deal with Cozart for 2 years (or so).

    • The choice between a 32 year old middle infielder with a suspect leg and 27 year old middle infielder who have similar offensive value should be no choice at all. It is hard to imagine even a “team friendly” Cozart free agent deal that isn’t going to be much more expensive than locking down Gennett through arbitration (2 years) and probably a couple more beyond.

      • I’m not sold on the idea that the Reds should re-sign Cozart, but they should only do so if they feel confident that the leg will heal well with off season rest, and that it will stay healthy for 120 starts in 2018-19 (and at an acceptable $ figure). A healthy Cozart, even diminished a bit by being 32-34 years old, is a far better fielder at a more demanding position. Even limited as he has been these last two months, and even with Gennett’s hot streak in the first half, Zack has twice the WAR value of Scooter this year.

  4. Its about what you get in return of course but he has value right now.As for Cozy he will only miss more and more games unless he goes to a team that gives him a few days off to keep him healthy.Price waits for his players to get worn our hurt or both before he reacts.He would be better in the other league so he could DH some.

  5. How strong is the market for second basemen? Is his defense in the outfield passable? If it’s a sellers market he could be the price we pay for not stripping or system of prospects to get a number two or number one starting pitcher.

  6. You are not wrong . There is a glut of middle infielders and this is after all a rebuild. Somebody must go . It makes sense to cash in on Scooter’s value and age and 2 remaining years of control this off season .

    • Check my comment below. At some point a team has to take a stand and say we are at the start of our window and aren’t moving assets just to collect more (potential) talent in a general sense. If not now for the Reds when?

      • I agree 100% Jim.Its time to take a stand and say we are going forward with these guys unless we get blown away on a trade.We have Cozy and Billy that will get big raises for sure so these are the only two guys we have to sign or let go.Scooter is one of those guys we have that gives us more value then what he would bring in return if the return is prospects.He can hit and with power especially at GABP.

      • Probably when they stabilize their pitching staff. Though there have been some encouraging developments, I would say they are not close to forming a competitive staff. There are still too many question and until those questions are answered (positively), the Reds are not in a competitive window.

        • They can largely fix the pitching with a trade or FA signing this off season. Even if the true year turns out to be 2019, now is the time to start acting like they are there versus acting like they are still back at 2015/16

          • Though they shouldn’t be making decisions like it was 2015/16, is signing/trading for a FA starter this offseason really going to make them contenders? I think it could help, but in my opinion, the remaining 4 rotation spots are far from a sure thing.

            Bailey gets a spot but his health/effectiveness is still questionable going forward.

            Castillo gets a spot but his track record is limited, as are his innings next year.

            Disco gets a spot, if/when? he’s healthy. Even then, who knows how effective or durable he’ll be after so much time off and his history of injuries?

            The last spot is still very much in the air. Romano? He seems durable, but has control issues and is not likely to be anything better than average. Stephenson?
            Even worse control issues and at this rate, he doesn’t figure to stick as a starter. Mahle? He has shown promise but there’s even less track record and he has to improve his control issues (noticing a theme here). There are other candidates. Reed and Garrett would be next but they are flawed pitchers as well. I don’t mean to “close the book” on these prospects. Some or all can certainly improve with time but nothing so far is a given.

            I guess where I come down on this is that they have to solve the starting pitching before they worry about making moves as a competitive team. I think we are looking at one more season (at the very least) of sorting.

            Keep Scooter in the meantime unless they Reds get a really excellent trade offer (but has anyone tried to quantify what Scooter could bring back?). If the Reds surprise and are in contention at the trade deadline next year, Scooter could certainly be a trade piece to get help, but again, I’m not sure what help he brings in return.

          • Yes, they can fix the pitching with a trade, but they have to give up assets in order to make a trade for a good pitcher. Scooter is one of those assets. You can’t keep everyone AND get a good pitcher. (Unless it’s a FA pitcher, of course, but I don’t see many good options on the market this year.)

  7. If someone offers a good return for Scooter you have to take it, but I can see the Reds using him as the starting 2B for next year and then looking to move someone during the year if Senzel forces his way into the lineup. I don’t think Senzel is with the team on opening day, but could be called up during the year. We should know more about the Reds plans at Spring Training if either Suarez or Senzel are spending time at positions other than 3B.

    • I’ve heard someone suggest going after Smardja in a trade as his periphials are better than his era indicate. I don’t have them on me but I wonder what Jordan Zimmerman’s periphials are because it seems like he has has a down year as well. Either one of those guys could maybe be had at a lower trade price.

      • Samardzija would be a good option. Zimmerman would not, by a long shot.
        Samardzija (age 32) ERA is 4.47, FIP is 3.61, and xFIP is 3.52. A 190/29 K to BB ratio. 28 HR’s, and a 42.5 GB%.
        Zimmerman (age 31) is 6.18/5.37/5.39. A 96/42 K/BB ratio, 29 HR’s and a 33.1 GB%.
        If that isn’t enough to say NO on Zimmerman, then this should do it.
        Samardzija has 3 years and $54M left on his deal, $18M – $18M – $18M.
        Zimmerman has 3 years and $74M left, $24M – $25M – $25.

        • Never been a big Samardzija fan and still not. I think he’d give up a lot of long balls at GABP and his contract is pretty hefty. The plus side is he can give innings and you were right a few threads back when you said he’d probably cost near nothing in prospects.

          • You may be right. I didn’t like the Cub version of him. I like the Samardzija that pitches in SF at home, 8 HR allowed at home and 20 on the road. Last year it was 7 in SF and 17 on the road. A big split that would not bode well at GABP probably.
            That makes Marcus Stroman look better and better as a trade target.

  8. Scooter should be in the same boat with everyone else on the team not named Luis Castillo, Nick Senzel, or Eugenio Suarez. If there is a deal too good to refuse on the table for him take it. Otherwise what to do with him depends on where the organization thinks it is at in terms of being competitive in 2018 and 2019.

    If they think they are ready to compete in 2018 or even 2019, sign him through his arbitration seasons and a year or two beyond. The worse case scenario is that they have their super sub that can play four or five days a week rotating through several positions keeping the team fresh with little or no drop off in offensive production. And since he would be under team control at presumably a favorable rate, he would still be an attractive trade piece should the team need to either acquire talent or fill a hole find him truly excess to its needs.

    If they feel they won’t be competitive yet, then be more aggressive about shopping Gennett and move him as part of a deal that will clearly help make them competitive at an earlier date than otherwise.

    The one thing that would really upset me at this point is to see Gennett or any valuable asset moved for “talent” in a general sense. The Reds are close enough that they should only be moving valuable assets in deals directed to make specific improvements in the MLB club in the short term to midterm window with midterm meaning a player who comes onto the MLB roster immediately but still in a pre-arbitration status. If they are still about the business of collecting prospects who might or might not impact the MLB club several years down the line, heaven help us as fans to persevere.

  9. Good teams, big market teams, keep a deep stable of talent and leave it to the manager to placate the egos in the clubhouse. Knowing who to play and when is a problem, but a GOOD problem. All indications are that the Reds will seek to accelerate the rebuild with a trade for pitching to compete in 2018. You can’t lose both Gennett and Cozart and expect to have a top 5 offense, even with the arrival of Senzel, so in that sense a trade would be counterproductive.
    The Reds more than anyone know that injuries render a deep bench a requirement rather than a luxury reserved for the big spenders. The Reds roster is packed with minimum salary players, so there’s no payroll pressure weighing on this decision. And then there’s this—Gennett hits, has always hit. He gives you a professional at-bat even against elite pitchers. Guys like that don’t grow on trees.
    As for the need to acquire a starting pitcher, you’d have to pair Gennett with others to acquire a SP better than the options we currently have. Because multiple players would get moved, arbitration eligible Hamilton would be the position player I look to move first in a package.

    Keep Scooter!

    • A lot of great points, but one important one to be careful with: Scooter has not always hit. After a year and a half in the majors (2013-14), he had basically two full seasons with the Brewers in which he got over 900 PA. In those two seasons, 2015-16, Scooter’s WRC+ was 78 and then 91, which is below average hitting (and his OPS for the two seasons was just above .700, which is not strong, either).

  10. It’s cool that you write for Cincinnati Magazine and all but I wish you’d reprint (or whatever) those articles here to.

    • But I wouldn’t trade Gennett. If the reds trade him and give the starting job back to Peraza, I’ll be ticked. I’ll especially be ticked off if Peraza still sucks if he gets that second opportunity to start.

      • Peraza is so young though. I can see it both ways on trading Gennett. I think it really comes down to whether a really good deal is reachable. But I am not ready to declare that Peraza sucks and always will suck.

      • Yes, I think Peraza has reached his ceiling. He is a better fielder, more foot speed and younger. But his basic approach to hitting is not going to change. We would all like him to be more selective, but I don’t think he can sustain that.
        Imagine the Brewers’ chagrin at having a “younger and better” second baseman than Scooter Gennett, and seeing him tank while Scooter has a career year with the Reds. And they got NOTHING for Scooter.

        • While Peraza may have reached his ceiling, most 23 year-olds continue to improve for a couple more years. And he has changed his approach, the question is whether he can sustain and perform well with it over time. Scooter’s success is still a small sample size, and he has to prove he can sustain it, as well.

    • I’m happy to click over to the Cincy Magazine site as those clicks will help ensure Chad continues to write for them in the future which is both good for Chad and RLN.

      • Kyle, I always have trouble whenever I try to click on one of their articles from my phone and I don’t own a computer or laptop. I don’t see what harm it could do to reprint/retype (whatever) his cincy mag articles here.

          • LW, I kinda thought that too but then I couldn’t help but think that they are his articles. He should be allowed to do with them what he wants. Unless in some crazy world his articles that he writes for the mag becomes the mags property. I don’t see how that would work but I know it’s something that’s certainly possible.

    • Cincinnati Magazine pays me to write for them, ostensibly because they hope a few readers will come their way. They’ve been very good to me over there, so I’m happy to help them out however I can. (Remember, Redleg Nation is a labor of love, but the Magazine is a business.)

      Ultimately, I really appreciate all of you who read the dumb stuff I write, wherever it’s published. Thanks!

      • Chad, I understand that. It’s just that you always seem to write interesting stuff for the mag and I want to check them out but I can’t. So, since they pay you, does that mean that you’re not allowed to reprint them here? I’ll understand if you choose not to answer that question.

        • Chad, I guess you’re not gonna answer and that’s cool, I understand… like I said. But I just reread what you wrote and I understood what you were saying this time. “They hope a few readers come their way”. In other words…you can’t reprint those articles here. There’s another possibility here but I’m choosing to believe the first thing…that you can’t.

        • They pay me to write for their site (and occasionally for their print magazine). And it’s just one click away!

          What’s your problem with their mobile site? It comes up perfectly well on my phone — it’s actually gorgeous. Maybe I can pass along your problem.

          • Chad, I don’t know. It’s just whenever I go to read something of theirs a security warning pops up on my screen while it’s loading. I think it’s something to do with a certificate of some kind.

        • Greenmtred, I agree. He almost always writes about interesting reds topics and that’s why I want to read his cincy mag stuff.

  11. I would only trade him for mid level starter (#3 or so).
    Else, I would keep him,
    He looks like a 30 HR 100 RBI guy.
    He also needs to work his backside off on the D.
    See Nolan (COL) or Suarez as examples
    Nolan is all world, and Suarez would be a Gold Glove candidate if not for Nolan.
    At this point I have more confidence in Scooter then in Dilson.

  12. I cannot imagine the market sees Scooter as a .900 OPS 2nd baseman and so again like Schiebler you have a player more valuable to us on the field than as an asset on the market. Regardless of splits vs. LH pitching, which if honored could only make Scooters value to the club more efficient, you simply do not trade .900 OPS non firstbase men for pennies on the dollar.

    Senzel is nearly a sure thing, but so was Brandon Larsen. One in hand is worth like 4 in the bush when it comes to MLB level production.

    • Reds fans are overvaluing players like Gennett and Schebler, other teams will not follow that line of analysis. Teams will not trade their assets for those two players, which is correct on their end.

  13. Nor Cozart or Gennett should leave the team for the time being, the infield behind those two plus Suarez is just questions marks. More time shall be allowed for the likes of Sensel, Peraza, Herrera or Blandino to find out when, if ever, will be ready to take over as regular players. Sensel looks like the one closer, but still a full season in AAA is necessary.

    • No way!! Senzel hit .340 in AA. Many times AA has better pitching prospects (Castillo, Mahle this year) then the retreads at AAA. I’ve seen some comparisons between Senzel and Scott Rolen. Senzel is 22. Rolen got a taste of the bigs at 21 (130 at bats) and played fulltime at 22 (.283, 21 hrs, .846 ops). I really hope they don’t waste his abilities at AAA for months, like they did when Cozart first came up (Renteria>Cozart until June). They need to keep him down for 2 weeks (Kris Bryant scenario) and then bring him up for good!

      • To be a winning team, the Reds have to have a lineup that has a lot higher overall OPS, and generally, a team with more players and pitchers that have higher WAR. I am dubious about how WAR is sometimes determined, but it is a real metric in evaluating players.

        Clearly, do you want a 1.5 WAR player, or a 3.5 WAR player? Senzel is about ready to play in the Bigs. For future arbitration and Super 2 status, he won’t be with the Reds on Opening Day, barring an incredible Spring or a key injury. But he is part of the future. They didn’t draft him #1 to play for endless seasons in the Minors.

        And Dilson Herrera is a big question mark. He just had shoulder surgery. Maybe this at last solves that physical problem, or else his career is in the toilet. Relying on Dilson Herrera to become a key player for the Reds at this point is somewhat mind boggling.

        If the Reds want to trade somebody, trade Billy Hamilton. He is another player that has reached his ceiling, and it isn’t that high.

        Peraza is a player that has already been traded by two organizations. Perhaps this is a clue that he isn’t the player people with the Reds thought he was. Better to admit a mistake now that prolong this for several more seasons.

        • The goal remember is to win more baseball games. We all complain about injuries but look at teams like the Cardinals and Dodgers, the Rangers (usually) and the Cubs. They can have catastrophic injuries to more than one starter and they have competent reserves ready to go.

          Part of winning year in and year out is being insulated from the disastrous slew of injuries. And that means you stockpile talent, not trade it away every time it generates some value.

          I’m all for trades (see Dan Strailly), but depth will keep you in the race, and having 3-4 2.5 WAR players around can be just as valuable as having 1 7 WAR player.

  14. “His value on the trade market may never be greater than it is now…” + Senzel/Suarez, Herrera, Blandino, Long = Yeah we need to be shopping someone. We don’t have a Shortstop. Non of these are shortstops and that includes Jose peraza.

    I believe we should be shopping scooter even though he’s my son’s favorite player.

    • I don’t see a major risk at having a look at Suarez back at SS. If he still can’t do it, we now know he can cut it at 3B and move him back there. I’d like to seem them use Senzel’s (presumptive) time at AAA to see what he can do at SS which he played in college.

      • I wouldn’t mind seeing them try senzel at SS or even Blandino (could hit his way to 2 war). I hate to see the club change what Suarez has going he may be a 5 war player at 3b.

        • This is true about Suarez and 3B. The adage about not making the team weaker in two spots by moving him off 3B would normally apply except that he may well be their best SS option also. They really needed to see Peraza at SS day in and day out to know if he could grow into SS defensively.

        • I have not seen anyone who evaluates minor league/prospect talent who thinks Blandino or Senzel could handle everyday shortstop duties. Doug Gray is pretty blunt about it.

        • I’m not thrilled with the idea of moving Suarez back to SS but I find it quite likely that he’d be more suited there than either Senzel or Blandino. Blandino can do it in a pinch for short stretches perhaps but doesn’t look like a MLB quality SS on a regular basis. Senzel only played there a few times in college and I haven’t heard anything to suggest he could play SS even in short stretches, let alone as a starter.

      • I just want to see an infield of Senzel, Suarez, Scooter, and Joey! Make sure Winker leads off vs righties, and they could easily carry Billy batting 9th if need be.

        • Winker, Senzel, Votto, Suarez, Scooter, Duvall, Tucker, P, Billy

          L-R-L-R-L-R-S-pitcher-S…..that’s a balance lineup!!

          • i think this is their best lineup, you’re right. but perhaps substitute schebler & ervin as a platoon in center, batting eighth. hamilton is either traded, or used the way the royals did with their speedsters, as a late inning pinch runner/base stealer and defensive replacement in center. that’s a great lineup. cant think of many that are better, potentially anyway.

          • Lorenzo Cain would probably cost too much, but I’d rather pay him then keep Cozart, Billy, or sign some shaky free agent pitcher like Alex Cobb or someone.

        • Would be a ++ offense in the infield. I would hate to pitch with that defense, I’m afraid it would be horrific.

          • Suarez’s work ethic is pretty incredible! I think he’d be atleast average at SS. He’s a smaller man then Senzel and he’s played SS before. You have a ton to gain offensively, and not that much to lose. THey could always go another route. If Scooter came back to Earth, then play Peraza at SS for a while and move Senzel to 2b. Scooter could be a floating Ben Zobrist type vs righties!

          • The Reds have 6 guys with 20+ homers this year–more than the BRM. The season fell apart because of pitching, not offense, and pitching will be the key to regaining competitiveness. Defense figures into this equation: More than half of the outs in most games are not strikeouts.

      • It took Suarez quite awhile, as I recall, to become a good 3rd baseman. I can certainly see a scenario where it makes sense to try him at SS, but how much rope do you give him? Particularly if the Reds are contending (as they might be). It’s reasonable to think that it would take him quite a few games to extablish whether he can or cannot play good shortstop.

  15. Jurickson Profar, SS and leading off; Senzel, 3B, batting 2nd; Votto, et al.

    Package Suarez for a young starting pitcher.

    Trade Gennett if it fills needs and 2B and the bench are addressed for 2018.

    • I find it comical how some continue to push this Senzel kid. He is now potentially damaged goods who hasn’t played above AA and people are already has a mega HOF major league player. Talk to me after we get a larger sample size like 4 or 5 years with at least 2 years of success on the highest level…

      • The Cubs thought Kris Bryant would hit and he’s hit. The Red Sox hyped up Benintendi and he looks pretty good so far! Senzel was probably the best hitter coming out of college that year and they usually make it! If he busts, then the Reds are in trouble.

      • True, Trout, Bryant, Judge, Sanchez, Correa, Harper, Seager were all hyped and did not pan out in MLB.
        The Reds have one player that matches 4 or 5 years with at least 2 years of success on the highest level.
        Senzel may not be a mega HOF, but, a team like the Reds needs to utilize their assets at the most efficient level. If Senzel is really only a 3B, then something needs to be done with Suarez.

      • Benintendi last year at 22 yrs old. Half-season at AA (.295 & .872 ops)
        Senzel turned 22 this year. Half-season at AA (.340 & .973 ops)
        Kris Bryant at 22. Half season at AA (.295 & 1.036 ops)

        I think its pretty reasonable to think that Senzel will be a borderline AS atleast!

        • Many here already have him penciled in as a starter major contributer as soon as next season.

          • A “major contributor” next season is vastly different than “Mega HOF major league player.” Are you now backpedaling since fellow posters have provided evidence that players are capable of being good major league players without having played a game above AA?

  16. The outfield has been re-built. The corner INF is stable. The middle INF is in a state of flux and the re-build pieces there didn’t take hold. The starting rotation is shaking out and getting on solid ground and the bullpen has been steady, but should be better in 2018. A healthy Mesoraco to split time with, or backup Barnhart, makes the C situation a little better. The question marks all come right up the middle of the defense. The 2B spot isn’t questionable, but who they plug in there is the question. Too many options at his time. Without Cozart at SS, it is only a so-so Peraza and that is it.
    I think Scooter Gennett will have the same off-season fate that Dan Straily had. A free pickup that had a good season an is then used to help obtain a good part for the rebuild’s finished product. A quality SS that is younger than 33 and who will be around for 4-5 years.
    I look for a big trade to get a quality, young SS for the next 4-5 years. And a starting pitcher this winter. And Gennett will probably be used in one of those trade packages.
    However, there is one huge thing that is in Scooter Gennett’s favor for the Reds to keep him this winter. And that is veteranyness.
    If the Reds lose Cozart, that plays a little in favor of the Reds keeping Gennett. And that might result in both Peraza and Herrera getting traded out. For the Reds to keep Gennett, Herrera and possibly Peraza for 2B, it certainly lays down a couple of unnecessary hurdles then for Nick Senzel.
    As for a market for 2B this winter, it kind of depends on which category a team falls in. Most contending teams or reloading teams would seem to be of more interest for Gennett and those re-building might be more in for Herrera or Peraza. Those contending or reloading teams who could have a need for 2B are Toronto, Tampa Bay, LA Angels, LA Dodgers, and the NY Mets. Not a big market, but it only takes one team. Those rebuilding or smaller budget teams that could have a need or interest in Herrera or Peraza would be TB, Toronto, KC, Detroit, Oakland, SD, SF, and Boston could possibly be looking for a backup 2B and possible successor to the 34 year old and often injured Pedroia.
    Toronto keeps showing up best as a trading partner for the Reds this winter.

  17. Hey let’s just trade everyone, I mean that’s what its all about, trade and hope…that’s how to build a solid fan base…

    • It feels like that sometimes! I was just in shock when they traded Josh Hamilton for a pitcher with a couple games in the big leagues or whatever Volquez had.
      Scooter is sort of a 1 yr wonder and not rated that great defensively. I don’t know what you would get? Of course it only takes 1 partner to make a deal. I was a big Dan Straily fan, but I could’ve seen Castillo throw 1 inning and said that was a ridiculous trade! Personally, I’d try to move Billy! He could really benefit some of these teams with huge outfields!

    • The current plan has the Reds in last place with one of the worst records in baseball. Not sure that plan will build a solid fan base.

  18. It’s all about the pitching going forward. Our offense is fine with who we have now, especially if you add in who we have in the wings. We’ve scored roughly the same number of runs to date as the Dodgers have (actually 2 more than the Dodgers), but our pitchers have given up over 270 runs (not a typo) more than Dodger pitchers have. We can argue all we want about the talent we have on offense, and we do, even if there are a few tweaks for next year (Cozy leaving). WE NEED PITCHING! If DW does not go out and bring in a high quality starter in the offseason, that’ll be a clear sign they’ve already thrown in the towel on 2018 and are hoping for 2019.

    • Its not that easy though? They can’t afford the Yu Darvish types. The guys we could afford are going to cost a ton of prospects, and most of them are not any more talented then the young guys we have now?

      • I think you meant “potentially” talented. Giving up the runs our starting pitchers have shows not much “current” talent. I would not give up Scooter or anybody else. Few on our current 40 man roster would return a high talent starter. DW’s been saving $$$ the last few years. I’d get the best free agent pitcher out there and sign him for 3-5 years. Yes, it’ll cost a lot, but I’m not comfortable with only the “potential” going forward. It seems Castillo, Mahle, and Romano will pan out well, but the rest are huge question marks. We have the offense for the next very good Reds team. Now we need the pitching.

        • I just meant that a guy like Alex Cobb is ok when he’s healthy, but his stuff is borderline and there is no guarantee that he’d be any better then what we have. GABP isn’t forgiving either? Lance Lynn has always been sort of overweight. I could see a scenario where he turns into Todd Coffey if the Reds gave him a big contract. I’m probably wrong, but there are few guys I trust? I like Marcus Stroman, but then you’re probably talking 2-3 of your top prospects.

          I would take the 3 youngsters you mentioned and throw in Disco, Finnegan, Lorenzen, Stephenson, and Garrett. There’s 2 decent starters there somewhere imo, so I wouldn’t mortgage the future for a Lance Lynn type that might have a 3.60ish era once you factor in GABP.

          • OK, I want to share your optimism about the other two “decent starters in there somewhere,” but they’re all big Qs and have never showed at the ML level any kind of consistency over a long stretch except Disco and his arm is even a bigger Q post injury. I’d take a starter with a 3.60 ERA with our offense. Methinks 2018 will be another year for sorting if DW stays with the pitching we currently have. I’d love to be wrong about that, more than anything.

        • Remember that our “current” guys aren’t the same guys who were current during much of the season. These current guys are young, learning and full of potential, so it isn’t the case, barring more terrible injury news, that next year’s staff will be a moribund group of journeymen. That’s the hope, anyway.

          • Exactly…next year’s rotation is a TON better because of the subtraction of Arroyo, Adelman, Feldman, Bonilla, Wojo starts

  19. Reds tend to skimp on bench players. He would be a great bench piece on a good team. But at what cost?

  20. Okay, I get the logic here, but I’m concerned. The Reds history of being snake bit by injuries (Mes, Disco, Homer, Finnegan, Cozart, and so on) really makes me want to hold on to Scooter unless someone out there wants to drastically overpay for him and I just don’t see that happening. Although, I didn’t see Castillo coming back for Straily either.

    Until I’m absolutely 100% sure Senzel is not Nick Esasky and that Herrera’s shoulder is something more than just hamburger, I don’t see how trading Scooter makes sense in the short or long term.

    • Kyle, I agree on both counts. Obviously the front office is not going to reveal personal medical information on Senzel, but whether or not he will recover from the ear infection and alleged vertigo symptoms is hugely important to the future of this team, and that’s understating it.

  21. as I recall it was “killed him a bar” not “killed him a bear.” with bar being the folksy pronunciation of bear. I could be wrong as memory is the second thing to go.

  22. These next 3 games are more or less meaningless with the Pirates. But the Reds last 12 games of the season might all have playoff ramifications with the. That will be 3 games each with CHC, STL, MIL, and BOS.
    This will give this young team a taste of meaningful September games, hopefully helpful for next year. Those last 12 games should be fun if the Reds are playing the spoiler role.

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