2017 Reds / Titanic Struggle Recap

Recap: Reds lose. Again.

Final R H E
Cincinnati Reds (61-81) 1 9 1
New York Mets (62-79) 5 8 0
W: Lugo (6-4) L: Garrett (3-7) S: Ramos (27)
FanGraphs Win Probability | Box Score

The Good
–Nope.

Well, I guess Joey Votto had a couple of hits and a walk. Scooter Gennett and Tucker Barnhart had a couple of singles each.

Ariel Hernandez and Luke Farrell pitched shutout innings of relief after the game was over.

But that’s it.

The Bad
–Amir Garrett was working on a pretty good little outing into the fifth inning. He recorded the first two outs quickly, then grabbed his calf after a pitch. The trainer came out to the mound, manager Bryan Price came out, and all of the Nation held its collective breath. After a couple of minutes, Garrett threw a few warmup pitches and stayed in the game…

..then proceeded to allow a single to Mets pitcher Seth Lugo. And then he surrendered Jose Reyes second home run of the night. What had been thisclose to a five inning, two-run outing for Garrett became a 4-0 Reds deficit.

–Cody Reed didn’t look great in his one inning of work, though he could have escaped without any damage if he hadn’t been victimized by a Scooter Gennett error. He did give up a couple of hits and a walk, and one unearned run.

Not-So-Random Thoughts
–That’s two losses in a row, but at least the Reds are hanging out in New York City. That’s probably fun. Hope the guys get to go to a show — Waitress gets pretty good reviews — or maybe they can grab a nice dinner at Craft or somewhere. Maybe some frozen hot chocolate. I dunno, lots of fun stuff to do in NYC after the game. You know, it’s the city that never sleeps.

27 thoughts on “Recap: Reds lose. Again.

  1. Reds this year, on some games, seem to have “quiet bats”. Don’t know what happens. The opposing pitchers look like Bob Gibson or Tom Seaver against them.

  2. BLARGH!!!! x2

    BTW, I blame our own MBE for getting me hooked on that word to sum up a Miltonesque game.

  3. You know, I look forward to the day when we’ll have something to actually talk about in reds wins or losses other than the nice places to hang out in a city after a ballgame. I think I worded that right. See, since we’re rebuilding, there’s no pressure to win. So the mounting losses are no big deal and shouldn’t stress us out too much. And this has been the message all Redlegnation writers have been trying to get across to those of us who do have the tendency to stress out and those who hate rebuilds. So, talking about the nice places the players can hang out in a city after a game is a continuation of the practice of basically telling us all to chill out and relax. Ultimately, you’re right, there’s nothing we can do about it. So, I get the point. Maybe y’all are doing it to look out for our (and maybe even your) mental well being. I didn’t know you cared so much. Thank you! But, the losing is starting to weigh on me making it feel like we’re dragging our knuckles through the thick mud. I really, really, really can’t wait for this rebuild to be done and we can get back to winning/playoff baseball.

  4. Sandman,

    For what’s its worth, I took Chad’s recap with a smile.

    It was a clunker of a game, between 2 teams playing out the string. Garrett, Reed, Ervin, Peraza all saw action, so at least there was some “learning curve” time booked.

    Right now, Reds pitching isn’t close to a team of “Mike Leakes”, let alone Dodgers/Nats/Cubs staffs (or Brewers/DBacks)

    Starters for 2018….
    -Bailey (over 30, much repaired arm)
    -Castillo (under 100 MLB IP in his career)
    -Everyone else is either currently hurt, unproven (#FreeLorenzen) or just gives up too many HRs and BBs per 9 right now.

    We may have to suffer through another year of sorting (of pitching), and it could be completely the right thing to do.

    Everyone, writers, readers, lurkers and below the line commentators, are just trying to grin and bear it, IMO. I don’t think we are a “chill out and relax” group about the Reds. At all.

    • Sliotar, I’d say you’re right about us reds fans not being a “chill out and relax” kind of group. That’s why some Redlegnation writers and the reds brass through Price (Price kinda being their spokesperson) have told us from the very beginning to basically relax and “bear with us/them”. Saying such things like, “every team goes through cycles of winning and losing”. But there are a lot of reds fans that I’ve seen on social media that wanted this rebuild to happen some even saying that it needed to happen (whatever). And therefore a lot of reds fans do seem to be chill about all the losing. I’m just kinda worried that if the reds make a playoff push next year with Price leading the way that the reds brass will “reward” him with a longer contract. Of course, a lot of people believe that the mgr has little to no sway over how many wins or losses a team has and they can point out all the Sabermetrics numbers you want to “support” this hypothesis, I don’t care. I just don’t believe it but that’s just me.

      • My problem as a Reds fan hasn’t been in rebuilding but instead the manner the rebuilding has happened. 2017 was supposed to be pretty much the last year of the rebuild but here we are looking at perhaps 2018 being another “season of sorting” and 2019 may be the start of the next “competitive window”. I said 2019 after a couple trades that I hated but it turns out those trades were decent. It’s been the lack of pitching development that is holding the rebuild back.

  5. I’ve been saying above and below the line for sometime that the Reds need to try and break the losing mold in 2018 by spending resources on starting pitching. Taking the opportunities I have to say that and explain why is all I can do to try and contribute to being a part of the solution as I see it. That’s all I have control over. They either will or won’t. That’s beyond my control. Such is life.

  6. I know that it’s more enjoyable to see the Reds win. I understand that we should be working on establishing a winning culture, in theory. I do think we’re setting ourselves up nicely to be competitive next season, especially if we trade our surplus prospects/players for a top of the rotation young starter.

    But this season’s in the books. It is what it is. We should be forward thinking. The best thing the Reds can do the rest of the season for the future is give playing time to the young guys, and lose ball games. Our two best prospects in our system have come in the past two drafts, picked #2 overall. The top of the draft is where you’re more likely to find difference makers for future teams. If the Reds were to pull off a September record similar to the one they had in August, they’d be in danger of falling out of the top 10 in the draft. That shouldn’t be a possibility for a completely rebuilding team. That’s adding injury to insult.

    After losses the last two nights the Reds are in a tie for the #4 pick with the A’s and Tigers, though the Reds have played two more games than both. They were slotted into pick #7 before starting the series in NY. The Reds/A’s/Tigers are 1.5 games back of the Mets who currently hold the #7 pick, 2 games back of the Braves, 3 games back of the Padres, and 3.5 games back of Toronto who sit at #10. With 20 games remaining anything can happen. Even #11 pick Pittsburgh is only 6 games up.

    Losing will be beneficial for the Reds. While they could still get a very good player if they move down, the odds decrease that they will.

    • Losing will be beneficial? Our last winning season was 2013. We haven’t even won 70 games in two years and this year will probably be three. I know where you’re going with that comment but how much longer do you want to keep losing?

      • Losing was how we got Senzel and Greene in our system. That seemed to be beneficial. With the draft pool size we had we were able to add Trammell as a comp. pick by going well overslot as well. We’ve already have another losing season at this point. Why not keep losing in September to ensure a better draft pick? I want to keep up the losing for exactly 20 more games. Does it really make a difference in fans general happiness if we go 12-8 or if we go 8-12? Because right now 4 games is the difference between picking #4 overall and #11. I’ll take 4 more losses for the shot at drafting an elite prospect over a good one.

        • Agreed. The #4 pick would be much more valuable than the #11 pick. However, I can’t root to lose in any given game, though. I always want them to to win. Just that Reds fan deep within.

          Another note on having one of the losing-est records: it also determines waiver claim order through the winter and into the start of the next season. If other teams had been in front of the Reds, one of them might have picked up Scooter before the Reds even had the chance to claim him.

        • I’ll buy on Senzel and Green when they are thriving in MLB. I am a fan of prospects but am a bit worried as Senzel’s season ended due to vertigo, which can be horrible for a non-athlete let alone an athlete. Green has only appeared in a few games as a professional and is barely 18. A lot can happen in the next couple years with that young man. He could be great but it’s more likely he won’t be. Too far away right now to tell.You also can look at a guy like Winker and see that it isn’t all about the top 5 pick kind of players.

    • The Old Cossack is looking for specific individual performances that may impact the off season decisions and the 2018 season as the Reds finish the 2017 season. I enjoy watching a good ballgame, but that usually includes a Reds victory. As this season winds down, those victories are scarce. KNowing that the Reds are playing for nothing but individual pride rather than team glory, the draft pick in the 2018 rule 4 draft becomes more important. With that in mind…

      53-88 PHI (.376) —
      54-86 CHW (.386) +1.5 games
      56-87 SF (.392) +2.0 games

      60-80 OAK (.429) +7.5 games
      60-80 DET (.429) +7.5 games
      61-81 CIN (.430) +7.5 games
      62-79 NYM (.440) +9.0 games
      62-78 ATL (.443) +9.5 games

      64-77 TOR (.448) +11.0 games
      64-78 SD (.451) +11.5 games
      67-75 PIT (.472) +12.5 games

      Three teams are realistically ‘competing’ for the #1 draft choice.
      Five teams are realistically ‘competing for the #4 draft choice.
      Three teams are realistically ‘competing for the #9 draft choice.

      The performances by Garrett & Reed were disappointing. I was particularly disappointed that Reed only pitched 1 inning. Peraza seeing only 9 pitches in 4 PA was disappointing. Duvall needs to sit, for more than a game or two. He’s seems to be wearing down this season just like last season.

  7. I don’t think the Reds are in danger of dropping out of the top ten after the Mets ww play the Cardinals who are hot, the Brewers (Don’t expect to sweep them again) the Pirates and the Red Sox, Also our best pitcher of 2017 has been shut down.

    • The Reds are 8-5 vs StL, 10-6 vs PIT, 7-9 vs MIL this season. A cumulative 25-20 record. The Reds starting pitching has pitched better over the past month than at any other point this season. While true Castillo is shut down and he was a big part of the rotation improvement, Romano, Stephenson, and Bailey are all making strides of late. Mahle is showing he can compete at this level. It’s not like the end of last season where we sent Sampson, Adelman, and Josh Smith out there every couple of days.

      • 25-20 versus the division (minus the Cubbies) makes the case for why the Reds should be more interested in tweaking the talent in hand and making a couple of key off season acquisitions than openly tanking for another top 5 pick who isn’t going to impact them on the field until 3-5 seasons down the road.

        • That doesn’t make sense. They’ve already tanked. The last 20 games won’t have any effect on next season, but it may, like you said, 3-5 seasons down the road. They didn’t start the year out to be competitive as evidenced by how long they let Arroyo get shelled into the season (not to mention the starts to Adelman, Wojo, Bonilla, Buchannon etc). Why can’t they evaluate the talent and go for the top 5 pick? The division is lost and winning now only hurts our draft order.

          We have 20 more games left. I’m not saying run Gennett out there to pitch or to boot routine ground balls on purpose, but let’s turn September over to the young guys. Let Vincej, Turner, Wallach, and Ervin continue to get starts. Move Suarez to SS for a couple of games. What good does it do to keep running Cozart out there when he’s likely gone after the season? Let’s give Votto a couple of days off and see Wallach/Duvall/Kivlehan at first. Let Chacin, Hernandez, Shackleford, Stephens, and Reed get some high leverage relief innings.

          That way we’re evaluating for next season, for upcoming roster decisions, while also probably losing as well. That’s a win-win. What is 20 more games of Barnhart, Votto, Duvall, Schebler, Gennett, Suarez going to tell us that we don’t already know?

          • However the best plan to keep on losing is to continue to play regulars and start the washed up or never wills rather than the young guys.

          • I think all of us agree we should be seeing as many young guys as possible but it won’t happen.Price will manage just like he always has and his lineups will be basically the same.Next year will be a carbon copy.

          • The only smart thing about that post was to let Suarez play some SS. Crap like you said doesn’t fly in MLB. No player will ever want to play for the Reds if that kind of bush league stuff happened.

  8. I understand the points you’re making about the possibility of acquiring outstanding prospects as a result of losing, but I think that should be secondary. The focal point of a game should always be to win.

    • I bet, to the players, that winning is the focal point of each game. I certainly prefer to see them win if I’m watching the game, but I take the point that a higher draft pick trumps a few wins this season, even though the draft picks represent considerably delayed gratification. Rebuilds have to be continuous, but teams that manage drafting, trading and player development well may be able to avoid the sort of season that drives Sandman and the rest of us nuts.

      • I agree. Look around that clubhouse. There aren’t many guys set for life at this point. These guys are playing for their careers, be that with the Reds or somewhere else,

        Actually some of them may be playing to get out of Cincy if the the org’s plan doesn’t make sense in general or in their specific cases. They’ll be playing the games their hardest and best and not worrying or probably even thinking about draft position.

        Now that Price knows he back next year and presumably less concerned about impressing his current or potential future bosses, he may be a bit more inclined to have looks at differing folks leverage situations; but that’s about it.

        • Price knew in July that the Reds were going to pick up his option for next season. They just diidn’t need to announce it until September, so they delayed the announcement as long as possible, probably for public realtion reasons.

          Price has managed the way he will manage. There was no ‘trying to impress’ anyone. He will continue to make the same nonense moves and decisions that he has made all season(s). We’ll just have to accept that Price is the manager for another season and deal with it as fans of the team. I didn’t make it to Cincinnati for a game this season, but I almost made it to Billings for a game or two. Watching Price manage the game takes a lot of fun out of attending the games, so next season may also be a struggle to make the trip to Cincinnati for any games.

          • Duvall has a .421 OPS in September. That’s beyond slumping, yet Price continues to run him out there every game.

    • But why? I get from a truly competitive standpoint, you play to win the game. And I’m not saying the Reds should throw games or not try to do their best. I’m just hoping we’ll see this miserable season through to the best end result we can get, a high draft pick. I’ll put up with a couple extra losses if it benefits my team down the road.

      In the truest sense of competitiveness the Reds haven’t been truly trying to compete for the past two+ years. If they were Marquis, Gregg, and Arroyo would have never donned the Reds uniform over the past two seasons. Should winning come before future thought? Would you argue that the Reds should have kept Cueto and Leake past the 2015 deadline because it would have had a greater effect on winning throughout the rest of that season?

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