Final R H E
San Diego Padres (50-64) 3 8 0
Cincinnati Reds (48-67) 10 8 0
W: Storen (3-2) L: Yates (2-3)
FanGraphs Win Probability | Box Score

The Good
–The Redlegs trailed 3-2 as they came to bat in the bottom of the 7th. With one out, Jesse Winker — who was today’s leadoff hitter — worked a walk. After Zack Cozart was hit by a pitch, San Diego All-Star Brad Hand entered to pitch to Joey Votto. Votto promptly did what Votto does: he walked to load the bases, bringing cleanup hitter Adam Duvall to the plate.

Duvall struck out for the second out of the inning. Scooter Gennett, however, did not strike out: he drilled a grand slam to right-center, giving the Reds a 6-3 lead that they would not relinquish. Eugenio Suarez followed immediately with his 20th homer of the season. Five run inning, game over.

–Scooter was 2-4 with 4 RBI. That’s 19 home runs and 64 RBI for Gennett, who is still hitting .294/.342/.545 despite a recent slump.

–Joey Votto came to bat in the 8th inning with his 14-game hitting streak on the line. Of course, Votto had still had a productive day at the plate — three walks in four at-bats — despite no hits. Well, it’s a 15-game streak now, as Votto connected for his 31st home run of the season.

That’s a nice way to extend a hitting streak.

–Cozart was 2-4 with his 14th home run, two runs scored and two RBI. I’m still amazed that we’re almost halfway through August and Cozart has a slash line of .315/.401/.573.

–For the second straight day, the Reds bullpen did quality work. Wandy Peralta, Drew Storen, Austin Brice, and Raisel Iglesias combined to pitch three shutout innings.

–It wasn’t Luis Castillo’s best start, but it was technically a quality start for the rookie. Six innings, three runs allowed on six hits. Castillo did walk three, while striking out four.

–Tucker Barnhart hit a two-run double in the second to give the Reds a lead that they would soon squander (temporarily).

The Bad
–Nothing bad about a gorgeous afternoon game like this one.

Not-So-Random Thoughts
–Nice way to end the homestand, with a come-from-behind win that gave the Redlegs a series win — 3 out of 4 — against the Padres. That’s 7 wins in their last 11 games for the good guys.

Cincinnati is just two games under .500 at home in 2018; they’re 17 games under .500 on the road. Which is the real Reds team?

–The Reds hit back-to-back home runs twice today, in back-to-back innings. Gennett and Suarez did the trick in the 7th; Cozart and Votto in the 8th.

–Love seeing Winker at the top of the lineup. Would love seeing him in that spot for the next few years. He only reached base once, but he saw more pitches than any other Red besides Votto, and he just has an outstanding command of the strike zone. Winker doesn’t look like a rookie at the plate. He knows what he’s doing.

–Sure, there has been a power surge around baseball, but it’s still startling to see Reds hitting longballs like this. Suarez’ home run today made him the fourth Reds player to top 20 on the season (after Votto, Duvall, and Scott Schebler). If and when Scooter hits another, he’ll join that club. Me like.

–I have seen absolutely nothing from Luis Castillo this season that makes me anything less than extremely optimistic about his future. Great stuff, a live fastball, maturity on the mound. If this kid can stay healthy, the ceiling is the roof.

–As mentioned yesterday, the Reds hit the road now. After the last two games, I’m prepared to say that Cincinnati is the hottest team in the majors. I expect a successful road trip.

(go reds)

116 Responses

  1. TR

    The Reds have a winning homestand, 4-3. What’s happening? According to those in the know, Wojo and Adleman are not a part of the future although this season they have given the Reds starting pitching a modicum of stability in an unstable season. How about the bullpen for both, or at least one of these pitchers?

    • IndyRedMan

      Wojo might be in the rotation next April? He’s a little short on talent but he’s decent. He might be better then Homer which is sad.

      • Brian Dunn (@surrfinTexas)

        Why you giving up on HB? He’s an elite talent that has gone through two different medical procedures. Don’t underestimate him. It is very difficult to get back from Tommy John. Check how many QS he’s had since his recent return.

    • Nick Carrington

      I like the bullpen just fine for both. I disagree that they’ve given some kind of stability this year:

      Adleman as starter:
      5.47 ERA
      5.73 FIP
      5.04 ERA

      BUT first time through the order he has a 4.04 ERA and 4.32 xFIP, which is okay. He’s been really bad as a starter and part of the problem.

      Wojo as starter (28 innings):
      6.11 ERA
      5.74 FIP
      4.82 xFIP
      He was so bad as a starter a month or so ago, the Reds cut him from the 40 man and had to add him again just to bring him up. 28 innings is a small sample, but he’s averaging less than 5 innings a start. Maybe he’s learn something but based on his history, that’s unlikely.

      BUT, as a reliever, he has an excellent 1.08 ERA and 32.3% K%, which is awesome. Only 16.2 innings, but that’s 1/4 of a season for some relievers. 3.88 xFIP but that’s not terrible.

      • greenmtred

        Watchinmg Wojo pitch yesterday, I couldn’t help but be impressed. Really good control and breaking stuff and judicious use of the fastball above the letters.The one thing you can know for certain by looking at past results is what a player did in the past. People can learn and change. Maybe Wojo hasn’t, but for 5 innings, that was a pretty nice pitching clinic.

      • WVRedlegs

        Wojo’s post-game interview last night was good to see. He was asked about starting over relieving. He is just very happy to be in the Majors with the Reds. He said he was more than happy to pitch wherever the Reds want him. He is not hung up on being a starter, but you can sense that is his preference. He could be a better option than Adelman in the pen. Misses more bats than Adelman.

      • Nick Carrington

        I hope Wojo wins the CY Young for the Reds next year. Just suggesting that people may be overreacting to one good start and one decent one. The larger evidence doesn’t look great.

        If he has found the magic, we will find out soon enough.

      • citizen54

        Pretty much. I remember a couple of months ago when people were saying Adleman should be a fixture in the rotation or Garrett was going to become an ace. People tend to overreact over one, two or even three good starts. If Wojo can keep up with his 25.3 K% or his 5 BB% then ya keep him in the rotation. Nothing in his past though suggests he can maintain those rates.

      • greenmtred

        You’re right, of course, about premature celebration, Nick. I just thought that Wojo looked like a guy who knew how to pitch, not just throw. Refreshing.

      • Jack

        These are the same people who said back in May Cozart would come back to earth because of his past. I’m still waiting ….

      • Tom Diesman

        He actually did just that in June with a .769 OPS. Kudos to him for rebounding in July and so far so good in August. His inflated numbers this season at his age and with his recent injury woes has put him in a very interesting position going into free agency. The Reds need to move forward with their heads and not there hearts when it comes to the decision on whether to pursue him this off season.

    • Big56dog

      Just to clarify, are we qualifying 2 pitchers who give a combined 9.1 innings and 5 runs a modicum of stability? Sad state when we get excited as I almost agree with this

      • IndyRedMan

        Yep….3 er in 5.2 last night by Wojo or 3er in 6 w/Castillo = Lights out Nasty:)

      • Big56dog

        Castillo constantly gets through 6, its not comparable… I was referring to the Adleman and Wojo comment above and should have noted 5 runs combined over a combined 10.1 innings

  2. Jeff Morris

    Unless he some how does a big change, Hamilton will be what he is….a really great center fielder, but not a good hitter. If the Reds plan on keeping Hamilton in Center Field everyday for the next upcoming years, and be content to accept that fact that Hamilton probably will be what he is…(see above), they will have to make sure to compensate by putting better hitters around him, in the lineup. I like seeing Winker second in the lineup, but wonder many times, if he would be better leading off, and putting Hamilton hitting 8th. Winker vs Schebler in the RF Battle next year, and the year after, will be great to watch.

    • greenmtred

      Check Billy’s stats for the past 6 weeks. Or for the second half last year, for that matter. He probably won’t be a great hitter, but the narrative that he can’t hit at all seems like a knee-jerk. Plus, see comment above about Wojo.

      • james garrett

        Billy is a 250 hitter with no power and a obp under 300.He could turn it around but in two months he will have 4 years worth of data saying he is what I said he is.The Reds will pay him 6 million and give him another year I am sure of that but if it blocks Winker again its a mistake.The Reds waited all year for Schebler or Duvall to fail and they didn’t.Yes Schebler slumped badly for almost two months but then we found out about his shoulder which is the only reason Winker is now playing.

      • VaRedsFan

        He makes 2.6 million now. Is next years arbitration raise that much?

      • greenmtred

        Billy leads or is tied for the lead in MLB in triples. He has more hits than anyone on the Reds for the last 30 games. Power is not his game, as you say. Nor does it need to be. He’s not a complete player, but few are (nobody on the Reds), and he provides significant value and excitement to this corner of the entertainment industry. I agree, he probably shouldn’t be leading off, but what do I know? There’s a reason I’m not an MLB manager. Lots of reasons, actually.

      • Tom Diesman

        The obvious solution here is to deal either Duvall or Schebler for a young CF who can hit leadoff. I know, it’s a shame we have to manage around the manager. I still think Naquin from Cleveland can be had. He’d make a nice stopgap until one of our lower minors CF prospects arrives. Maybe a missed opportunity here since they were in on Martinez until the end and just acquired Bruce.

    • Carl Sayre

      I agree about dropping Hamilton in the order but I like him hitting 7th so if he does get on we don’t have to worry about him being behind Barnhart!!!!! MEZ would be hitting higher in the line up so 8th would work then. IMO Hamilton may improve at the plate goimg forward but not enough to make much of a difference. I do not however see Peraza improving at the plate any, IMO you can’t hide 2 light hitting speedsters in tje same line up. Peraza has not shpwn enough defense to justify his lack of discipline at the plate,what Walt Joke tty seen in him is beyond me
      I like a playet with speed but playing 81 games (hopefully more) a year at GABP why the love fest with light hitting speed burners?

      • VaRedsFan

        Batting Billy 8th in front of the pitcher is useless. 9th would be better
        Billy is batting .333/.385/.489 leading off the game. (104 games)
        Since you mentioned “improving”…Have you not been watching Peraza over the last month?

      • Darrin

        .367 obp since the break, 8 walks vs 5 strikeouts

  3. Big56dog

    I thought Cozart had a great first half, he actually been better in the 2nd half (58 PA). Even remarkable when he is not on fire he has been pretty consistent decent. Outside of the last 2 months last season he has not had a month with an OPS under .711 since 2014- when all months were below and 2013 when only 1 was above. Despite the injuries he has actually gotten better as a hitter this season

    • Big56dog

      Trying point out the last 2 months could be outliers if he has a decent last 2 months OPS around 720- 800 and that could make him multi- millions, pricing him out of the Reds Market

  4. IndyRedMan

    Bottom line…if Senzel adjusts ok to the big leagues then this team is going to put up enough runs! Its always the pitching! Wojo might help, but if he’s in the rotation then that’s more of a indictment on our young guys then a thumbs-up for Wojo. Disco is the key guy imo! If they had Castillo and Disco as the 1-2. Lorenzen would be decent to good…maybe the #3 guy? That leaves Mahle, Wojo, Romano, Stephenson, Finnegan, etc etc to fill out the other 2 spots. They absolutely need a guy outside the organization if Disco can’t go…and probably either way!

  5. WVRedlegs

    Scooter ought to have “G. Salami” on the back of his jersey on that upcoming nickname weekend. Scooter seems like it would be too generic now.

  6. gusnwally

    Great day!!!! ( I have Scooter and suarez on my fantasy team) Lovin me some Castillo. Looks like a future star. Fun side note. Was at Saratoga Racetrack last week. Was wearing my Big Klu 18 shirt my son had made for me. A young fellow came over and said I take it you guys are Reds fans. We of course said Oh Hell Yea. He introduced himself as Scott Meter. He is a former Reds minor leaguer pitcher. Told some great stories about Ty Howington, didn’t like Todd Coffey at all. Lotsa fun.

  7. gusnwally

    That was Scott Meyer pardon the typo.

  8. Carl Sayre

    This game is like the season in one sense it has me split about what the team should do about Cozart and Gennet! I mean Peraza does not give me the warm fuzzies. Cozart has had injury issues but his bat has looked like he is finally going to hit. He hit well last year when he was healthy and he has been injured some this year just not as much. I knpw he will be looking for a 4 or 5 year deall and I am very opposed to that but I wouldn’t mind overpaying him on a 2 year deal espeecially if it was incentive heavy tied to playing time! Gennet could be on a longer comtract if he would play for “utility player” money. The interesting decision could be what they do to make room for Winker, I have been impressed with his approach at the plate in limited times I have seen him. The fact that 81 games are played at GABP and the small amount of salary may mean the REDS keep Schoebler and Duvall both and that would mean Gemnet is allowed to walk!!! I think BHam’s speeed not only on the bases bit also in CF keeps him on the team and the field. I would like to see him hitting 7th instead of lead off. The fact is him and Peraza in the same line up isn’t going to cut it though Peraza might be the bench guy for the IF because of his cost. His contract might make it feasable to use him as a pinch runner and give the infielders a day off from time to time.

    • IndyRedMan

      Don’t forget Senzel….he’s going to be ready to go next April!

    • VaRedsFan

      Pinch runner? He doesn’t steal bases anymore. The REds bench is so short, they cant afford to replace a guy just to run. Joey and the catcher are the only ones that would be candidates, and Joey ain’t coming out


    Isn’t Votto a lock for the HOF if he has two or three 4-7 WAR seasons?

    • Derek Bryant

      No he should not be a lock. He is very good but not HOF worthy. He will never have won anything.

      • IndyRedMan

        ? I’m pretty sure Ernie Banks in the HOF. Clayton Kershaw has a 4.40 era in the playoffs and he’s never won anything. He’s going to the HOF either way. Votto is almost a lock at this point!

      • Derek B.

        The HOF should be for legendary players not good players with high on base percentage.

      • docmike

        So, there should be about 15 total players in the HOF? Since they are supposed to be “legendary”…

      • Thomas Jefferson

        While we can have a fun debate about what constitutes legendary versus good, don’t miss the joy of watching a phenomenal hitter. Votto is uniquely great in multiple ways, even if not in every way. He can not help that he is not on legendary, great teams winning the world series multiple times during the prime of his career.

      • Jonathan

        Are you not a Ted Williams fan either then?

      • renbutler

        What his team does has always been a terrible way to judge an individual’s fame-worthiness.

      • docmike

        Never won anything? Did you forget about the MVP trophy he won?

        I hope you weren’t referencing his lack of a World Series ring. Since, you know, baseball is a TEAM sport, and he is only 1 of 25 on the team…

      • greenmtred

        One guy can’t win the WS by himself, and I’ll guarantee you that there are a number of position players in the Hall who didn’t hit as well as Votto.

    • IndyRedMan

      The more I think about it….he’s obv not getting 3,000 hits or 500 HRs since he walks so much. He’ll prob hit 400 HRs if the ball keeps flying like it is now. It could be interesting?

      • earmbrister

        There are plenty of HOFrs that don’t have 500 HRs or 3000 hits …

        17 HOFrs had 500 HRs
        31 HOFrs had 3000 hits
        5 of the above had 500 HRs and 3000 hits+

        While 500/3000 would be an automatic HOF ticket, there are many who never approached those numbers. Some guy named Tony Perez had 379 HRs and 2732 hits and made the HOF. Orlando Cepeda had similar numbers (379/2351) as a HOFr.

        Votto has an adjusted career OPS+ of 158, which is tied for 16th all time. With his plate approach, I can’t see Votto’s career OPS+ coming down much. If he stays healthy (and he’s in great shape), it’s very conceivable that he can hit 400 HRs and tally 2400 hits. Those numbers, with that OPS +, should serve him well in the HOF voting.

      • Jonathan

        Its amazing how the best player the Reds have had in 30 years is the also the most polarizing. I’m a huge Larkin fan…but Votto is head and shoulders a better hit than Larkin ever was.

    • Old-school

      I think the key is to sustain his success through the 2019 season and that’s finishing in the top 10 for MVP. That would also get his counting numbers in better shape. Were the season to end today…I think Bryce Harper wins the MVP with Votto and Goldschmidt at 2-3.

      Players fade fast which is why the Reds can’t assume his greatness indefinitely. Would anyone have said 2 years ago Miguel Cabrera…arguably the only hitter better than Votto since 2010 ….. would be a below average hitter for first baseman in 2017?

    • Patrick Jeter

      You are never a lock because voters are fickle. But, in 15+ years when Votto goes on the ballot, the old timers will be dead and a lot of more SABR-oriented voters will exist.

      Unless Votto completely melts down as he ages, he’ll likely retire with a Top 25 wRC+/OPS+ in history. Think he’s tied for 11th right now in wRC+. You can’t keep one of the 25 best hitters ever to play the game out of the Hall, I think.

      Also, he’ll probably have something like 350 HR, 2400 hits, and 1300 walks. Last time I queried on BBR, every guy with those numbers was either in the Hall or Barry Bonds.

  10. msanmoore

    It was just a fun game to watch and the SD tv booth feed was a pleasant reprieve, especially when they started quoting “Animal House”.

  11. mariners77

    I was able to sneak down to GABP for a few innings on an extended lunch break. Great afternoon for a game, hardly feels like Cincinnati in August.

    Reds were ahead when I left the ballpark, but we’re losing by the time I made the short walk back to the office. I figured, well at least I saw the “good” part of the game…

    Ooops – or not!

    • TR

      Plenty of room with 15,000 for a day game in early August.


    Scooter was 2-4 with 4 RBI. That’s 19 home runs and 64 RBI for Gennett, who is still hitting .294/.342/.545….

    Yet many here said he shouldn’t be in the lineup. It’s a long season. Patience is not something many have on this thread.

    • bouwills

      Scooter seems to be a good fit behind Duvall, who’s behind Votto. Cozart is doing the job at #2 also (if he could just stay healthy). The rest of the lineup is still in flux.

  13. brunsfam

    Joey blistered the ball in his first at bat, but the SD left fielder made a nice catch running into the wall in LC. Joseph’s in a zone right now – and I’m heading to Milwaukee to see some more!
    I tell ya, we’re gonna finish 3rd in the NL Central and set the table for next year!

  14. sdkistler4

    back to back home runs in
    back to back innings. Awesome. Wonder how often that has happened?

  15. kmartin

    Joseph Daniel Votto is now the major league leader in OBP and OPS.

    • CI3J

      Unfortunately, most casual MLB fans won’t notice or care. OBP and OPS to many are still kind of foreign concepts, and I would say neither will ever surpass the mighty HR as the one stat which garners the most notice and respect from the casual fan.

      Why do even casual fans know the names Babe Ruth, Hank Aaron, Willy Mays, Barry Bonds, etc? It’s not because of their OBP or OPS.

      • Matt WI

        …because leading in HR’s proves what, exactly? Mike Trout, almost universally regarded as the best player in the game, doesn’t lead in HR’s. Would you take Judge over him if you had to pick a player? If so, why?

      • docmike

        Do you think if Votto had 50 homers right now but half the walks, that the team would be in first place?

      • Matt WI

        I don’t know what it looks like at GABP these days, but in Miller Park, they consistently list OPS next to a player’s name on the scoreboard. Sometimes it’s actually harder to find the “traditional” stats hiding in there.

      • Steve Mancuso

        If you know where to look, there are a lot of useful stats posted on various scoreboards at GABP. They even show the launch angle and exit velocity for hits in real time. Of course, the Statcast technology that was installed this year partly blocks the scoreboard from my season ticket. I was at a game in Pittsburgh last week and was struck that the Pirates have almost no advanced stats anywhere.

      • kmartin

        Ironic in that Pittsburgh management may well pay more attention to advanced stats than Reds management.

      • Steve Mancuso

        Yeah, I was surprised at how lacking the Pirates scoreboards were. If that stadium wasn’t situated with such a stunning view of downtown Pittsburgh, I’m not sure it would be considered one of the best. I thought the scoreboard was substantially worse quality than either of the big boards at GABP. Both have nice food areas inside. Pittsburgh has a better “outside the stadium” scene than GABP. And the killer view.

      • Matt WI

        Excellent. Making a loooong overdue trip to a game in Cincy against the Pirates at the end of the month. Avett Brothers show afterwards! I’m really looking forward to being back.

  16. Derek B.

    I care about reds winning. They are in last place with or without Votto.only difference would be record. Also, there are far more than 15 legendary players in HOF.legendry players make people buy tickets regardless of team’s record. Looking at Reds attendance people aren’t paying to watch Votto play.

    • greenmtred

      Legendary is not a precise word. Guys I thought were legendary when I was a kid (Rocky Colavito, Nellie Fox) are rarely mentioned now, in some cases. Yes, the Reds would be in last without Votto, too, but how can you make that an indictment of him? The team’s hitting has mostly been good this year, which is the part of the game he influences. He’s not a starting pitcher, which is the part of the game that has led us to last place.

    • Matt WI

      If you care about the Reds winning, why would you be nonchalant about their best player? Personally, I’m more worried about the other 24 roster spots and how they will help this team win. If you’re suggesting trade him for the moon, then say so.

      The same people who rag on Votto would be saying “look at what Votto’s doing over in (insert new city here) because the Reds weren’t able to keep him! They picked (insert player who pales comparison to Votto her) to play first base instead!”

    • docmike

      I get it now. So basically every player on the St. Louis Cardinals should be in the hall of Fame, since they are apparently making people buy lots of tickets to see them. Got it.

      • jazzmanbbfan

        Methinks that DEREK B is just trolling. Might be better to ignore than bother engaging in discussion? Just a thought, everyone is welcome to do what they think serves them or this site best.

      • greenmtred

        But it’s so much fun, Jazzman.

      • jazzmanbbfan

        You do have a point GREENMTRED 😀

  17. gusnwally

    In reference to Derek Bryants post. Maybe we should have Ted Williams removed from the HOF. We could replace him with Hank Bauer who won 7 WS with the Yankees.Make sense??????

    • Derek B.

      Are you really comparing a legend like Williams to Votto?

      • TR

        To appreciate a hitter like Votto takes a bit of a longer view of the game of baseball.

      • greenmtred

        You can compare a hitter like Williams to Jose Peraza: That’s what comparisons are all about. Votto and Williams are actually a pretty close comparison, and I bet that the Splendid Splinter would consider Joey the best hitter playing the game today.

      • IndyRedMan

        I hope you’re just trying to stir the pot? Otherwise….you’re clueless!!

        You said “legendry players make people buy tickets regardless of team’s record. Looking at Reds attendance people aren’t paying to watch Votto play”

        I guess Goldschmidt is a scrub then…because he plays on a playoff bound team and they’re still only 21st in attendance? Never mind his Triple Crown numbers and 30 steals. He just doesn’t pack’em in the seats so he sucks. As for Votto…I really doubt some middle aged HOF voter gives a damn about OPS and he could get left out of the HOF in theory….but he’s still a legendary player! Only the best hitter in the history of the oldest franchise!

      • Patrick Jeter

        He’s not Williams because no one is, but Votto is about as close as anyone else has got.

        Not sure you really understand how good a hitter Joey is. Right now, tied for 11th best hitter in history of game by wRC+, which is the current best measure for measuring a player’s offensive production.

      • Patrick Jeter

        Sorry, tied for 10th.

        Ruth, Williams, Gehrig, Hornsby, Bonds, Trout (!), Mantle, Cobb, Jackson, Votto/Musial/Fox.

        So, as Votto ages, his position will drop, but he’ll likely stay in the Top 25-30 when he retires.

      • Shchi Cossack

        The imminent Votto regression has been predicted since he returned for his age 31 season, after his knee and quad injuries. Votto has not only avoided this imminent regression, but put up some of the best seasons of his marvelous career during his age 31, 32 & 33 seasons.

        2015 age 31 : 177 wRC+ : 7.5 fWAR
        2016 age 32 : 153 wRC+ : 5.0 fWAR (drop in WAR entirely defense driven)
        2017 age 33 : 166 wRC+ : 4.5 fWAR (and counting)

        Does Votto begin to regress at age 34 … age 35 … age 36 …? Does Votto even follow a normal regression curve if and when he does begins a regression? Votto projects to another 6.0+ fWAR in 2017 and will likely far surpass that value. He will also likely far surpass a 170 wRC+ in 2017.

        The Old Cossack will cover any and all bets against Votto maintaining a MINIMUM of 150 wRC+ and 5.0 fWAR for any of the next 3 seasons. That takes him through the 2020 season and his age 36 season. Eventually Votto will regress, but I firmly believe that regression will be a managed regression with Votto adapting to what he can and can’t accomplish as age begins to have an impact. We’ve already seen him manage severe injury impact while maintaining his performance at an elite level. Votto is just a unique player who can really do whatever he desires with a baseball bat, possibly more effectively than any player in history with the [possible?] exception of the Splendid Splinter. I fully expect the Reds to easily and anxiously pick up Votto’s club option at the expiration of his contract.

      • docmike

        In your mind, what makes a player “legendary”?

        Since that’s what qualifies them for the Hall of Fame.

  18. Derek Bryant

    Again I ask, if Votto really is the 10th best hitter in the history of the game, shouldn’t Reds fans want to spend money to see him play? Yes the Reds are lousy, but people pay to see greatness. Votto is not a player viewed by the common fan as great or a star and does not improve attendance.

    • Thomas Jefferson

      How does Votto’s ability to drive attendance get measured? How do we know that the Reds wouldn’t draw a lot worse without him? It is certainly arguable that attendance would dip without him, and I know people for whom he is the biggest draw in heading to the park. In 2001 the Reds had two future HOF’ers on the roster (Griffey and Larkin), but they drew fewer fans than the Reds did last year. By this attendance measure, Votto could be equal to two Hall of Famers.

    • IndyRedMan

      Arizona is 21st in attendance and Paul Goldschimdt is kinda good? Phoenix is a pretty big city as well. Attendance has ZERO to do with the ability of a player.

    • docmike

      Maybe you should ask all the folks in Cincinnati why they aren’t coming to the games?

      Although I’m not sure if how a player is viewed by “the common fan” should be relevant. Since a lot of those fans probably think Dusty Baker was a great manager.

    • Matt WI

      It’s entertaining that because Votto’s baseball stats are unassailable, the last straw is now butts in seats. Why? Why is it so hard to give the man his due? That’s a most devoted acolyte of Brennamanism at work.

      • jazzmanbbfan

        Again, is it useful to respond to someone who appears to be trolling? He’s offered nothing of substance but has a bunch of posters all worked up.

  19. Derek Bryant

    Though a different sport, the tennis tournament will be sold out next week to see Federer and Nadal. Those 2 are legends in their sport and the people of Cincinnati will pay not because Cincy is a tennis hotbed but they want to see legends in their prime. Votto is very good but far from great or legendary.

    • Thomas Jefferson

      Attendance is not an indicator of legendary or great players. FC Cincinnati’s game is sold out next week, and they are a second tier team without anyone remotely legendary on the roster.

    • Steve Mancuso

      Tennis tournament is once a year. So it sells out. Baseball plays 81 games a year. Want to compare the total number of people who go to Reds games with total for W&S Open? Plus, why is watching on television or online discounted?

      Arbitrary descriptions of the number of people who attend games is really a pretty dumb way to determine how good a player is. Statistics on player performance seem a bit more reliable.

      Of all the terrible anti-Votto arguments, this one might be the terrible-est.

    • TR

      It depends on your definition of great or legendary.

    • greenmtred

      How many seats in the tennis venue?

  20. Jim Walker

    Saw some comments up the thread that said or inferred that Votto had won or done “nothing” in his career. Consider the following:

    Played on 2 Divisional Champion teams and a Wild Card team, All 3 seasons the team won 90 or more games

    Won an MVP award (2010). Has an additional top 5 MVP finish (2015). Has 3 more top 10 MVP finishes (2011, 13, 15)

    5 time All Star

    2nd in RoY (2008)

    Gold Glove winner (2011)

    This all adds up to a lot of nothing.

    • Derek Bryant

      Counting top 5 and top 10 mvp? that is reaching.

      • Old-school

        What that measures is your caliber of play compared to your peers in the era you played. There is a compelling argument to be made that Votto is the best player in the NL of this decade…2010-19 if he finishes string the next 2 years. That is absolutely a determination in HOF worthiness.

      • docmike

        You’re the one who said he had won nothing. That 2010 MVP award says you were wrong.

      • Matt WI

        Counting attendance against him? THAT is reaching.

  21. Derek Bryant

    Om I get it Votto cannot be criticized. In my opinion, HOF level players are players I have paid just to see them play. MLB Schmidt, Rose Bench Bonds and Clemens. NBA Jordan Magic, Kobe, LeBron, Steph and Durant, NFL Brady, Manning, Aikman Irvin Emmitt. Tennis Federer, Serena, Nadal and Djokovic. Golf Tiger and Phil. I am sorry I just never have said I need to go see Votto play I do not see him at the same level as those other players in their sports.

    • IndyRedMan

      I wonder what the LEGENDARY actor Macaulay Culkin is up to? A zillion people saw the Home Alone movies so he must be legendary!

      • Derek Bryant

        I tip my hat to you that was funny!

    • Jonathan

      You my friend would have a very small HOF then…Quite honestly, Votto is on the same page as Red’s Greats – Rose, Bench, and Morgan.

      Votto would be getting more attention if he played in a large market city like NY

    • IndyRedMan

      He’s not overly exciting…I’ll give you that. He doesn’t hit 460 ft HRs like Josh Hamilton or run like Eric Davis. Its just the longevity that he can hopefully put together! Bonds/Clemens/McGwire etc had roids to help out as well.

  22. Derek Bryant

    I have said my thoughts. I just do not like Votto while this entire board does. I will limit my comments about him.

    • Jack

      And there you have it!!! He doesn’t like Votto so no matter what he does its not good enough. I don’t like a lot of HOF’s but I’m smart enough to know that they are head and shoulders above other players. You sir are not.

      • Derek Bryant

        I admit he is good. He is just not a HOF player to me. I will root that he does not make the HOF.

      • Thomas Jefferson

        I am (and I think ‘we’ are) hoping that you can give objective (perhaps ‘define-able’ is a better term) reasons that you don’t like him.

  23. IndyRedMan

    Barry Bonds at 27 (1991) .924 OPS
    Votto at 27 (2010) 1.024 OPS

    I was in Texas and saw Brian Downing come to the Rangers in 1991. I lifted a lot of weights and knew instantly this guy was on roids. Its been said that McGwire/Sosa drove Bonds to roids later on but he could’ve juiced earlier?

    • David

      Very likely Barry Bonds took HGH (human growth hormone), and not Steroids. His hat size and shoe size changed. That doesn’t happen on steroids, to a grown man over 32 years old.

      Our bodies naturally produce some HGH, which aids in healing and tissue regeneration, and it is hard to analyze blood or urine and determine if somebody is dosing up (and the science may have changed in the last few years). Steroids show up in blood and urine analysis.
      HGH is also what killed Lyle Alzado. He had a slow growing brain tumor (undiagnosed) and at the end of his career, took steroids and HGH to allow him to maintain muscle bulk and keep playing football. The HGH dosages also accelerated his tumor growth, and killed him a few years later.

      • IndyRedMan

        Good point! I remember Bret Boone got huge but still had the head of a 170 lb middle infielder:)

  24. TR

    Joey Votto is in his 11th. year with the Reds and if he stays reasonably healthy for his remaining playing years he will enter the HOF. George Sisler is a HOF first baseman who played for 15 years and most of his career was with the old St. Louis Browns who never drew much in terms of attendance. A few Sisler/Votto stats compare as follows: HR: 102 / 252
    BB: 472 / 950
    OBP: .379 / .426
    OPS: .847 / .968
    The only stat where Sisler far leads Votto is SB: 375 / 70.
    With Votto’s career still going, it would be very surprising if he is not in the HOF.

    • Derek B.

      I will be surprised and disappointed if he were to make it.