The Reds have been outscored 61-20 in the 7-game home stand. They’ve given up 19 home runs. Tomorrow, they welcome Mr. Giancarlo Stanton and the Miami Marlins to GABP for a 3-game series. Hiding women and children is nowhere near enough.

Cincinnati Reds 2 • Arizona Diamondbacks 12 || Box || Play Log || Statcast

Luis Castillo pitched well after his first 11 pitches. Castillo (24) tried back-to-back change-ups against Jake Lamb and that didn’t work out. The D-Backs third baseman blasted a 3-run homer to deep straight centerfield. Castillo’s command of his fastball was off for part of the day, but his only walk was to the game’s first batter. He struck out seven Diamondbacks, including the last four he faced. In the sixth inning, he whiffed Paul Goldschmidt for the second time, the latter occasion on three pitches.

BTW, Castillo’s “get-it-over” first pitch of the game was a 95-mph fastball. He also knocked his first hit of the season, a 10-hop grounder over second base.

Tony Cingrani pitched an inning and gave up a walk and a homer. Any trade value Cingrani might have been building has dissipated during this home stand against good competition.

Ariel Hernandez gave up six runs on four hits and two walks, including a 2-run and 2-run homer. In one inning.

“Walks and home runs don’t usually add up to victory,” opined Jeff Brantley.

Eugenio Suarez drilled a pair of home runs. In the fourth-inning he homered to deep left centerfield. In the 8th, he hit a GABP Special to right. It was Suarez’s second and third solo shots in the home stand. In both games his homers proved to be the only Reds runs in a loss.

Devin Mesoraco returned after 12 days on the DL – four of which were during the All-Star break – moved up to sixth in the lineup. He was 0-for-4.

A Lesson in Sequencing:

  • Inning A: Walk, double, home run
  • Inning B: Home run, single, single, single

Inning A produces three earned runs. Inning B produces one earned run. Inning A was the Diamondbacks’ first; Inning B was the Reds’ fourth.

Was the second pitcher better than the first? According to their respective ERAs, yes. Three times better. Remember this example when someone suggests the primacy of ERA for evaluating pitchers. Pitchers have less control over the other team’s batting order than you might imagine.

89 Responses

  1. CI3J

    What’s with Reds relievers just pumping fastballs all day, every day? Do they not tell them they need to throw a 2nd pitch at least every now and then?

    Cingrani and Hernandez both got beat up because hitters were sitting on their fastballs. Doesn’t matter if you throw 100mph+, if hitters know it’s coming, they will hit it.

    • Nick Carrington

      CIngrani throws fastballs over 90% of the time. He just doesn’t have much else. Hernandez will be fine. Stuff is nasty. Still learning to command it.

      • Big56dog

        I read somewhere last season batters were hitting around .200 off his slider, do not know if that was small sample space but I know he rarely throws it. I heard he went to some camp to work on a secondary pitch any body know if this had any positive impact or was related to his April DL stint?

  2. alex

    After a while you’re just at a loss for words with this pitching. Everyone is to blame, from Dick Williams to the minor league instructors to Price and his staff to the pitchers themselves. With the exception of Castillo’s 35 innings, literally every Reds pitching prospect has spectacularly blown themselves up in such reprehensible fashion that the pitcher has to be immediately demoted. Part of the word rebuild is “build”, which the Reds and Dick Williams do not seem to grasp in the pitching department.

    • Big56dog

      What is encouraging about Castillo is he rebounded well and finished strong. Most of the rookies seemed to show a success first time through and get roughed up. Someone like Garrett gave up some runs early and then kind of lost it. If he strikes out Lamb in the first, that outing would look very impressive.

  3. sandman

    What do you mean a pitcher has less control over the other teams batting order? Ain’t that their primary job…to control the other team’s batters? Maybe I’m missing something here.

    • Patrick Jeter

      I think it was joke, literally meaning the pitcher doesn’t fill out the other team’s lineup card.

      So, if you give up walk, walk, homer in one game (3 ER), then homer, walk, walk in the next game (1 ER), you aren’t 3x better or worse between those games, even though ERA says you are.

      Basically, ERA is garbage and you shouldn’t put any stock in it to evaluate pitchers.

      • IndyRedMan

        You’re usually on point but that’s crazy talk sir! A ton of good/great pitchers gave up a lot of HRs but they didn’t do it when 2 men were on or they wouldn’t be a good pitcher. Tom Browning is one example…..thousands more

      • citizen54

        Not sure why everyone is going into full panic mode today. The Reds weren’t expected to win this year. This was supposed to be was a year for sorting out the starting rotation and it seems we have found a piece. Now we have to get Robert Stephenson, Reed once, he works out his mechanics, and Romano some starts. You could even toss Garrett in there if these three flame out. I’d rather lose 100 games and draft at 1 or 2 than finish with 75 wins and pick 8th.

      • sandman

        Patrick, I’ll accept that it might of been a joke. As far as ERA is concerned, I know that there are other metrics out there that can tell us if a pitcher’s good or not, but I still think that ERA is still an important stat. I’m not saying that it should be the sole determining factor but it was created for a reason and it still tells a part of a pitchers performance. I ain’t gonna get caught up in what’s within a pitchers control and what ain’t. That’s just my opinion. I’m also not saying that I don’t believe in the other metrics. But I think ERA and the others can coexist (if you will) and are equally important. Sorry if you and others disagree. I can’t help that I guess.

      • Ben

        Gotta disagree with you. Situational pitching is a thing, and being at your best when it matters the most is definitely a trait that some pitchers possess.

      • Jim Walker

        Cowboy Brantleyb would agree with you. I heard him say today that it didn’t matter how many a pitcher could strikeout in a game if he couldn’t strikeout a batter to keep a runner from scoring from 3rd with less than 2 outs when that’s what the xsituation required.

      • Da bear

        ERA might not be the best metric but it does get to the heart of how the game is won and lost – how many earned runs are they giving up. A pitcher thus gets rewarded for better results in high leverage situations – I.E. Minimizing damage when runners are on base – than low leverage situations, when the bases are empty.

        Just as RBIs matter – you win by scoring runs. It’s just that metric should be RBI efficiency – how many runs does a batter produce divided by the total RBI opportunities is far better than just an absolute number of total RBIs. Ultimately total bases advanced divided by total possible base advancements – including those of all runners on base – is the best metric for hitters because that weighs into account high leverage situations.

      • Big56dog

        I find it hard to take your point seriously when you say ERA is garbage, look at the top 20 season in and season out and show me an outlier. Wins I will agree with to some extent

  4. Jeff Morris

    Owner BC has to be throwing things and cursing in his office, at the way the Reds are playing in the second half…


      I doubt it. He’s probably saying we’re on track. Reds aren’t going anywhere. Remember, if you ain’t growing, you’re going. Reds are sellers (going). Whoopee…more prospects.

  5. Aaron Bradley

    As the trade deadline approaches, someone queue the “Trading Places” video clip: Sell! Sell! Sell!”

    • VaRedsFan

      Nobodys buying what we are selling

  6. eric3287

    There was something a few days ago where Dick Williams said he wasn’t looking to trade any of the “core players of the next good team” and that “the window of being competitive is starting to open.” As the Reds face off with teams that are actually contending, it is more and more apparent that whatever window he thought he saw was nothing more than a mirage.

    The Reds, by any measure, are a bottom 5-10 team. They’re getting a career year from Cozart, a career year from Duvall, and they’re almost 34 year old 1st baseman is putting up power numbers that he has literally never shown before. It’s looking ever clearer that between the starting 8 and 5 starters, there may only be 3 total that will be in similar roles for the next “good” Reds team. Everyone should be on the trade block, and Dick needs to be out there selling hard on everyone.

    • Mg2

      Look at the Diamondbacks record last year. No need to panic.

      • doofus

        Snake GM’s are aggressive; Red’s GM’s are not.

      • Big56dog

        And didn’t they make some horrible trades last season

    • sandman

      Eric3287, everybody should be on the trade block, huh? So I guess you want this team to be in perpetual rebuild mode until they somehow put together a new group of kids that magically comes together to produce a winning or even championship team? Shouldn’t keep anybody to put towards the next good team(s)? I really hope you don’t literally mean Everybody! But it’s not like the Reds would listen to you or me or anybody on the “outside” anyway.

      • eric3287

        The Reds still have a lot of talent acquisition they need to complete before even thinking about contending again, so yes, everyone should be on the block for the right price. If you can get two better than replacement players for Duvall and two better than replacement players for Schebler and 3 for Suarez and 4 for Iglesias, then you need to make those moves. I’m not saying to do a salary dump. But Dick needs to be actively working the market to try and improve the team for 2018-2020.

    • doofus

      Yeah, Cub fans were listening to that same crap for over 100 years. You got time?

  7. doofus

    Other than Votto, who will be 45 when the next “good team” arrives, and perhaps Castillo, there are no “core players” on the present 25-man roster.

    Mr. Williams has been in WJ’s liquor cabinet.

    • Keith

      What about Suarez? I’d add Romano to the list as well. He’ll be fine once he settles down. I still think Peraza has a bright future as well, but I’d prefer he be in AAA taking pitches.

      • doofus

        Suarez, Romano and Peraza are the core?

  8. TiredoftheAnger

    Reds are on pace to lose 100 games this season which, if achieved, will be the worst season under Price whose best season was his first at 76-86. To me, Price has proven he is not a major league manager and it’s time to bring someone in who knows how to bring along young players.

    • TR

      I’m with you on that but with what the GM recently said about Price, I think he will be extended come October. The rebuilding Reds need change but I doubt much is going to happen regarding the manager or trades. Ultimately Bob Castellini and his son are running the show.

      • doofus

        I agree. I believe they let the vegetables stay on the shelf too long before they put out the fresh produce. Look at what they got for Frazier. I guess they think the fans will buy whatever they’re selling.

    • sdkistler4

      I agree. Seems to me that this team is in the process of quitting on Price. Not only are they giving up double digits nearly every night, but the scoring is slowing way down!

      • CP

        I could not care less about Price coming back but I’ve seen no evidence that the squad is quitting on him. They hustle every night and they keep fighting even when getting crushed. The pitchers just stink. He’ll probably go down with the ship but I haven’t seen any of these guys looking like they’ve quit.

        Of course, there really isn’t a single ballplayer on the team that can afford to phone it besides Joey, and we know Joey Votto isn’t going to do that. That’s the nice thing about playing the kids. They’re all playing for the first real contract.

    • Bruuuuuce

      100 games? What math are you using? .421 winning % currently. That means about 67-68 wins over a 162 game season. 162-68 = 94.

      94 losses is still bad, however, 6 games is a lot.

  9. Jack

    I know they are in a rebuild but I am at a loss with this team some days. I just don’t get them and what they are thinking. It all started in the first with Billy on 2nd and Votto up and he tries to steal 3rd. A clear shot for the catcher to throw to 3rd. Even the dbacks announcers couldn’t figure it out. That is twice this year Billy had been thrown out at 3rd with Joey up. Can’t even get one run home with the bases loaded and no outs! I don’t think the outfielders made a put out either. I pull for Peraza because the guy needs a break to go his way. But man when the Reds need a big hit guess whose up? It’s like they say the weak link will show itself at the worst time.

    • VaRedsFan

      And votto grounded out. If Billy was on 3rd he would have scored. Getting to 3rd with 1 out is much more important than standing on 2nd waiting for a hit.
      Earlier in the year when he tried it with no outs, was clearly a mental error. but not yesterday. Votto has got plenty of RBI’s this year after Billy stole 3rd.

      • Jack

        Brenly had no reasoning for it and I’ll go with a guy who won a championship than a guy sitting on his couch .

      • Jack

        Brenly had no reasoning for it and I’ll go with a guy who won a championship than a guy sitting on his couch .

      • vegastypo

        We agree on a lot of things, VaRedsFan, but not this. … It’s foolish to try to steal third in that situation, and I think it’s happened more than twice. (Let me go count my scars.) … Yes, there are x more ways a runner can score from third than from second, but what does it matter if the base runner doesn’t get to third?

        And that’s not even considering that the Reds were down by three runs at the time. Heck, Votto tried to steal third a few weeks ago and should have been out by a mile. He ended up scoring because the catcher threw the ball into left field. (Maybe he was in a state of shock that Votto was running.) But when Votto tried it, the Reds were leading. Not my favorite play, but at least the Reds weren’t losing at the time.

        How Price tolerates wasting outs on the bases in that situation is beyond me.

  10. james garrett

    Hope they don’t send Castillo down after his effort today.It would be consistent though.The Reds can’t hit lefties and for the second time in two weeks made Corbin look like Kershaw,It may have been different if we had scored some runs.A 4-2 game going to the 7th is not so bad.

  11. Timmy RedLeg

    Literally every pitching ” prospect ” that the Reds have put out there has 0 command. I’m sure I’m preaching to the choir here, but if you haven’t done it, please watch where the catcher sets up before the pitch is thrown. Very very rarely will you see the pitcher hit his mit. Even if they throw a strike it is not in the location that the pitcher was aiming. That’s 1 of the main issues. There are no quality strikes being thrown. It’s hard to watch!

    • doofus

      Castillo did not have command of his slider today.

    • VaRedsFan

      Very good point Timmy. So many times I have seen the catcher sit up off the inside corner to a lefty, only to have the pitcher throw a pitch middle-in and have it rocked over the fence.


    If we assume it will take about 4 seasons or until 2021 for the Reds to become seriously competitive it is important to look at the roster and determine who could possibly be a productive member on the 2021 team. Age is an important factor. Based on what we see today, Iglesias, Lorenzen, Castillo and Surarez may be the only players who will merit being on that team. The other future 21 are either currently playing in the minors, (Senzel, Trammell, Mahle,etc) others wiil be drafted over the next couple of seasons, or acquired in trades. it also means the current 21 not viewed as long term assets should be offered in trades. This includes Votto, Duval, Hamilton, Cozart, Mesoraco, Schebler, Gennett etc. Not all need to be moved at once but it must be done over the next couple of years. The Reds will need to kick in money for another team to accept Votto but that will be the only way to get a decent player or two in return. Votto may be the best pure hitter in Reds history rivaling Frank Robinson but keeping him with the team is not a good idea for the franchise nor is it fair for Joey. The best chance for Joey Votto to make the HOF is to play for a competitive team where his production will be noticed as the team competes for championships. Teams who could use Joey include the Yankees, Red Sox, Giants, Rangers, Rockies, Cardinals, Pirates and a few others who will open up in the next year or two. Rebuilds require tough decisions that will not always prove popular with some fans.

    • CP

      4 years is overly pessimistic. Things could turn around fast if a few of the pitching prospects gets it. In a lot of ways, this team is ahead of the 2008-2009 Reds squads. People forget how inconsistent Cueto and Bailey were, and Volquez brought all the fans hope before missing most of the 2009 squads. A lot depends on guys like Desclafani bouncing back, but at least there is a lot of potential players scratching the surface AAA+.

      • doofus

        Cueto and Bailey experienced growing pains, but no where near as bad as this present group of pitchers, Castillo is the exception.

        Reed, “Luke Laroosh” Stephenson, Garrett are either approaching or are now 24 or 25 years old. At that age they should have already started to figure it out. Okay, Garrett was a late bloomer.

      • CP

        Bailey’s 0-6 with a 4.46 K/9, 4.21 BB/9, and a 7.93 ERA in 2008 was pretty darn miserable.

        I don’t know if Reed, Stephenson, or Garrett will figure things out but it is still way too early to give up on them.

      • eric3287

        Cueto – age 22, 174 IP, 4.90 FIP
        Volquez – age 24, 196 IP, 3.60 FIP
        Bailey – age 22, 21.1 IP, 6.41 FIP

        Cueto – age 23, 171 IP, 4.69 FIP
        Bailey – age 23 113 IP, 4.41 FIP
        Volquez – age 25 Tommy John.

        Garrett – age 25, 58 IP, 7.29 FIP
        Reed – age 24, 14 IP, 6.99 FIP
        Stephenson – age 24, 24 IP 6.58 FIP
        Davis – age 24, 19 IP 5.82 FIP

        The 08-09 teams also had Harang (32) and Arroyo (31) to anchor the rotation. This years “vets” are a banged up Homer, 34 year old Scott Feldman and I guess Tim Adleman?

        One of the biggest falsehoods the Reds get away with is complaining about how “young” the rotation is. Compared to the 2008-2010 teams, these guys aren’t “young” they’re just not good. In 2010 Cueto and Bailey were established ML starters at age 24; Volquez established himself at 24. Leake was in the rotation at 22. Travis Wood had success at 23. Latos was 1b. of the rotation at 24. By next year, every Reds pitching prospect save Tyler Mahle will be older than Cueto/Leake/Bailey/Wood was in 2010.

      • CP

        It’s neat that other players developed faster, but 24 and 25 years old is still young. Players don’t all develop at the same pace or get it at the same age.

        It’d be nice to have some inning eaters like Harang and Arroyo, but some combo of Desclafani, Bailey, and Finnegan were supposed to be the anchors. Feldman, Adleman, and Wojciechowski are like options 5-8-11. I don’t think the Reds were actively planning on going into Opening Day with Games 3 through 5 starters being TBD, TBD, and TBD, or that all the kids would have these types of struggles. You expect inconsistency, you don’t expect Cody Reed to go from a 2.50 BB/9 type of guy to a 9+ BB/9.

  13. Timmy RedLeg

    Are you suggesting another rebuild?

    • Sliotar

      Castillo’s stuff is electric enough to continue justifying letting him start every 5 days for as long as it takes for him to evolve from being a thrower into a MLB pitcher. However, someone mentioned above that the Reds pitchers, in general, have no command. Are Bryan Price and Mack Jenkins the guys to develop Castillo?

      Tony Cingrani was supposed to be developing other pitches, now he’s back to mostly all fastballs. Recent results of that are speaking for themselves.

      Reds pitchers are not taking a step forward in their development at the MLB level this season, aside from Castillo making the most of his opportunity.

      If we get to the end of the season, and the previous statement remains true, there is a large amount of second-guessing, re-calibrating of expectations, what was actually sorted, etc. etc. that will be brought up.

      • doofus

        I think Castillo pitches better when Barnhart is behind the plate.

  14. Mg2

    Johnny Cueto’s first year in the majors: 158 K, 68 BB
    Second year: 132 K, 61 BB
    Johnny Cueto did not have a superior K:BB ratio until his 5th season in the majors.
    Things take time. More time, believe it or not, than some of these young guys have been given thus far.

  15. IndyRedMan

    I think if Hunter Greene would’ve fell thru the cracks in the last seconds, then I would’ve given up all hope. Nothing is happening during the Votto era…..maybe when he’s so old that he’s contributing to the Reds like Adrian Gonzalez contributes for LA this year.

  16. Chuck Schick

    The Reds began their rebuild almost exactly 2 years ago.

    Over the past 324 games, they are 130-194.

    The Cubs were 127-197.

    The Astros were 106-218.

    • CP

      Remember when fans were begging for the organization to commit to the rebuild and the organization was kind of wishy washy about it? Fans can’t handle it.

      The rebuild has gone a little different than expected since I expect most people thought the pitchers would lead it, but instead the team has done surprisingly well with finding cheap, cost controlled position players.

      • Chuck Schick

        Since completing their sweep of the Cardinals on June 8th, the Reds are
        11-25 with the bulk of those losses coming against very good to great teams.

        Good teams tend to beat the crap out of not so good teams and finish .500 against their peers. The 1975 Reds were 22-21 against the Dodgers, Pirates and Phillies and anilihated the Cubs, Braves, Padres and Astros. The scheduling Gods did the Reds no favors over the past 5 weeks.

        Rebuilds aren’t linear. Progress is made and then things turn south and then more progress is made. I believe this is a 72-75 win team and we’ll see what transpires when they start playing teams in their weight class again.

      • VaRedsFan

        It’s not that people are mad about losing in a rebuild, it’s because they are losing with guys like Arroyo, Adelman, ect.

      • Chuck Schick

        Its a shame that many fans can’t recognize a band aid.

        I guess they could’ve done smart things like rush Castillo or completely destroy Reed and Stephenson instead of buying time with Arroyo…..who didn’t cost much, was easy to drop from the 40 man and the team won half his starts.

    • greenmtred

      Thanks for that, Chuck. Most of us knew at the beginning of the season that we’d see the sort of results we’re seeing now, but the Reds’ good early play raised unrealistic expectations. Also, this isn’t much fun to watch. My unease comes from not understanding what they’re doing with guys like Winker, Stephenson and Reed.

  17. jessecuster44

    Rebuild or not, the Reds have played 7 games since the All-Star Break and been competitive in exactly one. Exactly what is a fan to do while waiting for the “rebuild” to complete itself?

    Aside from Castillo, there’s not one starter worth a darn. I always love watching Joey Votto, but I’m feeling pity for him these days. It’s hard to see his efforts go for naught. Billy Hamilton isn’t getting it, prize trade piece Jose Peraza has the plate discipline of Brandon Phillips without the hitting ability, and Jesse Winker, the most interesting young position player the Reds have, can’t get any playing time. Because sorting. Pitchers can’t stay healthy, and some can’t avoid freak accidents.

    What’s a fan to do? I have enough bobbleheads. I’m becoming apathetic.

    I’d like to see this organization – top to bottom – to act like winning is important. It hasn’t in quite a while.

    • Chuck Schick

      The Astros are perhaps the best team in baseball. Were they acting like a team that felt winning was important during the 3 years they lost over 100 games? The 2012-2014 Cubs certainly didn’t act like winning was important…they even stated publicly over and over again that it wasn’t. Yet, 2 years later they won the World Series.

      I guess the Reds could just keep taking the duct tape approach they had and string some 78 win seasons together. Is that really what you want?

      • Da bear

        Agree for the most part. However….have the reds drafted as well as the Astros & Cubs? Do the Reds have Altuve, Keuschel, Correa & Springer; Bryant, Russell, Schwarber, Contreras coming up soon? And wrt the Cubs, will Cincy ever pay up to grab free agents like Lester, Fowler, or shrewdly augment via trades, obtaining an Arrieta or a Rizzo?

      • Chuck Schick

        I don’t think the Astros nor Cubs
        ” knew” what they had until it developed. How would they?

        I live in Chicago. The genius Cubs fans were making the same complaints in 2013 as the genius Reds fans are now.

      • Bruuuuuce

        Altuve & Keuchel weren’t hyped prospects whatsoever. Jose Altuve didnt crack Houston’s Top 20 in 2010, and still wasn’t Top 10 in 2011. He was even listed behind current Super Red Asher Wojciechowski! If Reds fans here were in Houston during those days, they would have been clamoring to trade Altuve because he struggled initially.

      • jessecuster44

        There is absolutely no guarantee that the 2019 Reds will turn out like the 2017 Astros. None. So forgive me if I think that there’s got to be an in-between that makes building a contender less of the misery that we’ve had to suffer since July 2014.

    • greenmtred

      C’mon, Jesse. 7 games? Can’t argue about the starters, but the presumptive core of the next rotation is young and still in the development stage. Billy has quietly been hitting lately. Still, I get it: It’s discouraging to watch since the redeeming quality of a rebuild is seeing the young players develop, and Winker and most of the pitchers are in the minors.

      • jessecuster44

        Billy has been turning it around, that’s for sure.

  18. IndyRedMan

    The problem with comparing the Reds “rebuild” to Houston’s or the Cubs, etc. etc. is that those teams drafted and developed a lot of homegrown talent! The Reds can’t develop anyone? Obviously our pitching is a trainwreck. Their C+ offense is put together with trades. You could say that developing Todd Frazier allowed them to pickup Schebler and Peraza, but overall they swing-n-miss on these guys constantly! Senzel might be the first difference making hitter since Jay Bruce. There hasn’t been a decent starter since Cueto? Meanwhile, they’ve spent how many millions on Cuban shortstops that can’t hit their way out of A ball? This “rebuild” has zero in common with anyone that’s actually rebuilt and successfully turned it around.

    • Chuck Schick

      I forgot about the long history of drafting/ development excellence shown by the Cubs and Astros…..wait, no I didn’t since both teams actually sucked at those things until recently.

      • IndyRedMan

        I’ll give you the Cubs but Houston has had some good teams. Have the Reds won a playoff series since 1990? I can’t think of one? The Royals might be another one. Many years of bad teams and cheap owners but they finally had some young guys come up and produce at the same time!

    • WVRedlegs

      No, the difference in the Rebuilds of the Reds compared to the Astros and Cubs is that the Cubs and Astros supplemented their rosters with some astute free agent signings. The Reds will never reach that stage since they won’t delve into the deeper end of the free agent pool. The Reds front office will splash around in the kiddie pool while other teams improve their rosters by going big.

      The difference in the Rebuilds are the makeup of the front offices of each team. As long as this Reds Rebuild is being overseen by Walt Jocketty and his fingerprints are still all over it, then this Rebuild is destined for mediocrity.
      And for people who want to say Dick Williams is the one in charge of baseball operations, didn’t see the telecast the other night when they showed Jocketty and Williams in their luxury box. I was very disappointed, repulsed, aggravated, and agitated at what I saw and heard. Jocketty sitting there with Williams standing in the background. And Thom and Chris talking like Jocketty was still The Man in the front office.

      As long as Jocketty is still looming around the front office this team will be nothing more than mediocre. Dick Williams and the Reds need to cut the cord with Walt Jocketty. Jocketty, self admittedly, has never done a Rebuild or gone through one, until this with the Reds. He didn’t have the taste for one either. He didn’t have any experience with one. Any.
      The question is, why is he still around in a very influential post in this Rebuild if he doesn’t have any experience with engineering one?

      • Chuck Schick

        Neither team made any free agent signings of note until they were ready to compete.

        Theo Epstein had zero experience doing a rebuild. Jeff Luhnow was a new GM who came from the Cardinals and had no experience with rebuilds.

      • WVRedlegs

        Since we are comparing to the Cubs, this trade deadline is equivalent in timing to when the Cubs acquired Jake Arrieta.
        Do you think the Reds will get a Jake Arrieta come July 31? Do you even think the Reds front office even gets a starting pitcher at the deadline?
        And with the Cubs timing, this winter should be the time the Reds get a Lester then too. Do you see that happening?
        No? The Cubs and Reds Rebuilds are entirely different. Quit comparing. You are comparing a Maserati (Cubs) to a Yugo (Reds) with comparing Cubs Rebuild and Front Office to the Reds.

      • VaRedsFan

        I agree with what you are saying WV…in the most part, that as long as Walt is still involved that they will never turn it around. But, in 2012 for the Orioles, Jake Arrieta pitched 114 innings with a 6.20 ERA. Is that someone we want the Reds pursuing?

      • Chuck Schick

        Is it possible that Castillo trade will be as good as the Arrietta trade? Perhaps.

        Will the Reds sign a Lester like free against? No. Though the Astros didn’t sign any Lester like free agents either.

      • WVRedlegs

        That is true Chuck. I hope that comes to fruition.
        The Cubs traded for/developed position players and went out and purchased a lot of pitching.
        The Astros have tried to develop/trade for pitching and have purchased quite a few position players.
        The Reds are trying to develop/trade for all their pitching and position players. That strategy and process seems to be overwhelming the organization.

      • WVRedlegs

        VRF, a 6.20 ERA fits right in with this crowd. But if he became a CYA candidate for 3 remaining years, heck I’m in.
        Reds don’t have the chips for that kind of trade unless they part with some current regulars or a package with prospects.
        But this STL trade today involving Gonzalez to SEA for OF Tyler O’Neil is interesting in that a good prospect went for a good prospect. The Reds should explore a couple of these type of trades.

  19. Tom Mitsoff

    There is definitely a roadmap for what Dick Williams is trying to do:

    Just remember that the Astros had three consecutive 100-plus loss seasons. You have to go through A LOT of bodies to find the ones that can ultimately win. And if you draft well, you’ll have some future stars moving through the pipeline. The Reds have had 13 different pitchers start games this year, and how many of them appear to be worth a darn? Perhaps Castillo. Perhaps Finnegan if healthy, which is anyone’s guess at this point.

    Castillo has shown in each of his starts that he has the stuff and the poise to make a difference at the big league level. Nobody else in the system has yet done that. Maybe they will eventually, maybe they won’t.

    It was very interesting to read the story yesterday that Peraza has been benched in favor of Gennett at second base:

    Peraza probably needs to go to Louisville to work on the plate discipline, but he will likely stay with the big league team as Cozart’s backup. It’s clear to me that Gennett is not the long-term answer at second, at least defensively.

    The last week has demonstrated just how far the Reds still are from being a good team

    • Old-school

      Nick Senzel is steamrolling thru the minors abd realistically could be starting at 2b in June of 2018. Could the reds be moving forward with an infield a year from now of Votto/Senzel/Cozart and Suarez with Gennett being a trade candidate in the off season or the 2018 trade deadline?pereza is s nice backup middle infielder

      • IndyRedMan

        Zack is awesome but he can’t stay healthy! He’s already had 2 plays on this homestand where he got to the ball but his knee/legs are so bad that he couldn’t get up and throw the ball. He needs to get traded for whatever they can get or let him walk. Suarez can play SS again. Scooter can do damage vs righties but Peraza is now LH enforcer? We’re getting shutdown by lefties constantly this year. They need to see if Herrera or Dixon might work out or even Kivlehan maybe? Sign a thumper…do something? They need to try out Herrera or Dixon this year but they won’t? Alex Blandino is another possibility. Peraza needs so much work? I’d leave him in Lville til he turns 30.

      • Tom Mitsoff

        I’m thinking with the Peraza benching that a Suarez move back to shortstop is becoming a more likely possibility (presuming Cozart’s departure), particularly when Senzel is ready.

      • Old-school

        I like that move. With Senzel progressing…there has to be plan A in place. There is certainly plenty of depth at 2b and none at SS.

      • CP

        I like Suarez and his bat plays better at middle IF, but this seems risky since Suarez’s defense would be a big question mark at SS. You could also use Senzel at 2B and handle him like the Nationals did Anthony Rendon.

        Suarez is young and cost controlled, you might as well trade him. Not necessarily for prospects, he may be valuable enough to bring back a decent SP.

  20. Greg

    Fire the coach, he hasn’t done a thing to change the losing, we need a new person in charge to change the atmosphere and get back to winning, he hasn’t won since he was named coach.

    • greenmtred

      He hasn’t pitched a complete game or gotten any hits,either, so by all means, fire him. We’ll see what difference it makes.

      • IndyRedMan

        Can’t fire the 40 man roster and Bob C. has to show the fans something. Price will go….dead man walking