2017 Reds / Milton / Titanic Struggle Recap

Recap: Reds lose. Rinse. Repeat.

Final R H E
Arizona Diamondbacks (54-39) 11 12 0
Cincinnati Reds (39-54) 2 6 0
W: Ray (9-4) L: Romano (1-2)
FanGraphs Win Probability | Box Score

The Good
–Are you kidding?

The Bad
–Sal Romano wasn’t bad, exactly, but he was not efficient and when he began to get tired, the wheels came off in a hurry. As the fifth inning began, Romano hadn’t pitched particularly well, but he had only given up two runs and the game was tied.

He was unable to retire a single hitter in the fifth. By the time he was removed in favor of Tony Cingrani, Romano had posted an ugly line: 4 innings, 6 runs allowed on 6 hits and 5 walks.

–Cingrani only tossed gasoline on the fire when he entered: fly out, double, double, home run. One inning pitched, two runs allowed on three hits.

–Lisalverto Bonilla did what Lisalverto Bonilla does: three runs allowed on two hits and three walks in two innings. He seems like a good guy, but Bonilla really has no business on a major league roster.

–The Reds only got one hit in two innings off our old friend JJ Hoover tonight.

Not-So-Random Thoughts
–I promise: the Reds will win at least one more game this season. This is my guarantee to you.

–Jose Peraza was intentionally walked, which is about the dumbest thing I’ve ever seen a big league team do.

–Zack Cozart had a single, double, and a home run. Billy Hamilton tripled, which is generally exciting.

–I still think I see a lot of things I like about Romano, but his ERA is 7.50 after three starts. Only one of his outings could be classified as good. But he’s still a kid.

–This is getting ridiculous. I think it’s time to retire Milton.

Milton was unhappy with Cincinnati’s performance today.

Today’s Tweets

75 thoughts on “Recap: Reds lose. Rinse. Repeat.

  1. Gotta wonder if Votto has lost the old wallet again. When you look over-matched against JJ Hoover, there is something going on,.

    • ^this has been a little worrisome, even the weeks leading up to the break minus a few good games.

    • Are you really even bringing this topic into the conversation? Votto has played 93 games this year, has an AVG above .300, is among league leaders in HR/RBI, has an OBP of .422, and is up there among all advanced statistics categories. Just because he has had a few games and at bats that have not gone his way doesn’t mean that he’s “lost the old wallet.”

      • maybe you haven’t watched his AB’s since the break. He has that inside, out pop out to left field, swing going again. Not driving the ball to center-right center like when is going good.

      • I was discussing with someone in the game thread about Votto’s approach and swing. His exit angle and height are way above league average = more homeruns and more fly balls. Not surprising his BABIP is 70 points below his career average.

        26 dingers is nice and all, but sustainability is the issue. Can he maintain his hitting approach and still excel? I don’t see him hitting 52 HRs this year, or even 45. Meanwhile he’s had a ridiculous amount of warning track fly balls that could be line drive doubles.

        He’s still Votto, and still not the problem with this team, but this bad run is worrisome that his regression is actually real and the HR #s are just a smoke screen.

        Of course, that could all be speculation and Votto has just gone up against some of the best pitching in baseball like the rest of the team. I’m hoping this is the case.

      • BH Scooter Cozy (and Winker’s lone start) are getting on base since the break. Yes the starting pitching has stunk but Votto has stunk since the all star break too.

  2. The Reds have now given up at least 10 runs in 15 of the 94 games we have played. That is almost once every 6 games. We play on average 6 games a week which means we have no chance to win at least one game a week. Ouch!!

    • So they should keep Cozart to avoid being shutout or no hit? Great idea. 11-0 would be so much worse than 11-2.

    • Yes, please trade him. I’d rather get pieces that will help when the team is competitive than have Cozart keep getting meaningless hits and scoring meaningless runs in a lost season.

      • Trading him is fine…I’m on board with that. But I don’t think you are going to get something meaningful for him

  3. First, never retire Milton.

    There are lopsided games and games bad enough to require that Milton be brought out. We will never know the difference going forward reading the recaps if he’s put out to baseball blog pasture.

    Second, the Reds are a bad baseball team in 2017. However, look at the starters they have faced since the All-Star Break:

    Gio Gonzalez
    Scherzer
    Roark
    Strasburg
    Ray

    All but Roark are having excellent seasons, and Roark would be welcome most places, and would be the “ace” (used loosely here) by a mile with the Reds.

    Even with the Reds abysmal starters, not much chance of making up for it with a high-scoring slugfest with that lineup.

    In the words of the late, great Dusty Rhodes (RIP)….”Hard times, Daddy.”

  4. Milton’s overuse is not his fault, he only appears when needed. I actually feel for him in times such as these.

  5. Thom’s great observation after the 3rd out in the 5th: “Cingrani stops the bleeding.”

  6. Lisalverto Bonilla did what Lisalverto Bonilla does: three runs allowed on two hits and three walks in two innings. He seems like a good guy, but Bonilla really has no business on a major league roster

    That’s the not-so-funny thing about a lot of these guys. They happened to have a Lville/Indy game on here a few weeks ago and Bonilla shut them out for 7 innings. Tonite he comes out throwing 94-96 mph and he’s always changed speeds pretty well. I left after his 1 inning tonite and he looked great. I was going to mention how much better he looked….maybe a Junior Guerra type? Whats he do when I get back? 2 outs and nobody on….walk.walk…fastball down-n-in on a tee for a pinch hitting lefty. I give up with these guys? Most of them have arms that are more then good enough but they must all have 50 cent heads? The equivalent in football (when does it start?) is “Looks like Tarzan but plays like Jane”

  7. The Reds should consider trading Hamilton… he is healthy and in his prime and probably better suited for a big ball park. Schebler is far more useful to the Reds. Hamilton tends to get hurt frequently, his value is about as good as it gets right now.

    • Schebler is batting under .200 his last 18 games. The league may be figuring him out. High fastballs. Can’t hit ’em, Cant lay off ’em.

      Billy has hit .312/.361 over that span

      • Not sure the league has figured him out but the book on him has been updated about that high fastball you mention. Also, pitchers are executing well against him. Now Schebler needs to make an adjustment. Over spans of games, pretty much every hitter has some valleys like this. I hope Schebler snaps out of it soon.

  8. I think there’s really something going bad with this organization in terms of scouting, player development and training/medical; so many bad things happening at the same time, or is it just a +/- 3 years string of bad luck?

      • Spot on Aaron and I would add that the Reds are going to continue to pay mightily for his tenure.

      • My understanding is that he worked from his home in Sarasota or some place in Florida. That’s not ideal. He should have been face-to-face with his subordinates, the Scouting and Player Development Personnel, etc. Teleconferencing only works so far.

      • Price makes questionable decisions at the big league level sometimes but blaming him for player development and injuries just isn’t fair. Criticize him for the things he has control over but don’t be mean because the Reds aren’t that good right now.

  9. Watched most of the game…Romano was tiring and couldn’t locate his pitches. Cingrani seems more like a thrower, than a pitcher. Looks like he doesn’t know where the ball is going, most of the time. He relies on his fastball, and if by luck, he can’t locate it…then he will give up mulitiple hits like tonight and walks as well.

    • I’ve never been sold on Cingrani. He’s a guy who seems to have the tools to be successful, but it never seems to pan out on the field.

      Kind of like Blake Wood, who can reach the upper 90’s with his pitches. The problem is, MLB hitters can handle upper 90’s pitches. If that’s all you got, you’re gonna get creamed.

  10. Also…Peraza seems overmatched most of the time I have seen him in the games this year. He lunges at many pitches, and is late many many times, and is lucky to foul pitches off. Also…The lineup is not hitting now. I think alot of that is due to the teams we are playing like the Nationals and the Diamondbacks. I don’t know what Price is thinking?? We are way behind on talent compared to the rest of the teams in our division, where we have mostly unproven young players, that may or may not pan out, while the other teams have proven players, that play about 500 ball in our league. We need to start bringing up the players from the farm system and give them experience. Need to start seeing what they can do up in the major leagues. Call it “tryouts” for the major league.

    • Price doesn’t set the roster. He doesn’t get to say to the GM “bring up so and so.” He has the pieces he has, and it is up to him to use them in the best configuration. His choices for those configurations can be questioned (why does Peraza ever play?) but now who is on the big league roster.

  11. All around baseball, teams are already making deals.

    White Sox cashed in on Quintana and Frazier to get pieces for their future from the Cubs and Yankees.

    Tigers traded Martinez to the D-Backs for pieces for their future.

    A’s traded Doolittle and Madson for pieces for their future.

    Meanwhile, the Reds…. Have done nothing. I don’t want to make a trade just to make a trade, but surely if all the contenders get what they need from all the other rebuilding teams, the Reds will be stuck holding the bag?

    • I’d say the Reds players on the trading block have done a pretty solid job of eroding whatever value they had in the past few weeks. Except for Cozart, maybe, whose injury will lead to questions.

    • What trade would you like to see? Our chips are Cozart, Cingrani and maybe Iglesias. Iglesias commands the most;the other two are luxuries for most teams. We have no Quintana or JD Martinez to trade. Sure wish we did.

    • Who exactly do the Reds have that anyone would want? The Reds can’t unilaterally trade people.

      Cozart is of minimal value. Feldman, before the injury, has a long history of being Scott Feldman. Storen didn’t sign a low value deal with the second worst team in baseball because he was at peak demand. Hamilton would only be appealing to a very small number of teams. Iglesias shouldn’t just be given away….and everyone else is too irrelevant to mention or should be kept anyway

      • Personally, I would explore trading either Duvall or Schebler to open a spot for Winker. Surely one of those two would have some value?

        Even if Cozart will bring back minimal return, he has to be traded. The Reds cannot afford him, and shouldn’t sign a long term deal with him in the first place. Do we lose him for nothing?

        And yes, we should look at trading Iggy to any contender desperate to overpay for bullpen help.

        If the Reds do nothing before August 1st, they will have yet again squandered their chance to make positive steps forward in the Rebuild.

        • I agree they should explore a trade of either Duvall or Schebler, but those guys may be easier to trade in the offseason. Although, maybe teams who missed out on Martinez may now be interested. The Rockies are a team that in that mix, and they want players they can control for a while. It may be a fit.

          And yes, anything returned for Cozart is better than letting him walk away for nothing. Even if that’s just future relief help, a back up catcher that projects better than Turner, or a lottery ticket in the low levels of the minors that has a long development road ahead. It may not be exciting, but it’s a cut above nothing. I think the Red Sox are missing an opportunity to get creative by obtaining Cozart for SS and moving Bogaerts to 3B for the rest of the season. Cozart’s better, IMO, than the other guys they’re targeting for 3B.

          Listen on everyone, only Votto and Senzel should be “untouchable” in this rebuild (although Castillo is making his case recently). In fact, I would put it out there that teams interested in Hand, should instead consider Iglesias as he’s controlled two years longer and the asking price can’t go much higher (the Padres are asking for two top 100 players plus other pieces reportedly).

          • Why exactly is Votto untouchable? The Red Sox could use his bat, they have a glaring opening at 1B and the money to pick up his salary without blinking an eye. I think it should be considered, this team is a long way off from being playoff contenders.

          • Votto isn’t untouchable but he’s also difficult to get a lot of value for. What type of return would you expect for a guy like Votto?

    • Notice how aggressive GM’s build playoff bound, championship type teams?

      How come Cincinnati never hires a GM like that? Aren’t we allowed to have one too?

      • Castellini spent a lot of money when he first took over. Then they got saddled with big contracts re-signing Votto, Phillips, Bailey, etc. and things things got tight pursed after that. The Bailey signing was a killer, no return on that investment whatsoever.

        • Aaron: To answer your question about Votto, he has a full no-trade clause and has repeatedly made it clear that he isn’t interested in going anywhere. If he changes his mind, trading him would likely still involve the Reds paying part of his salary. I don’t see it happening, nor do I want it to. He’s about the only reason I can find to go watch the Reds.

          • You’d have to think he would consider waiving it if it meant playing for the Red Sox in the playoffs. They are a quality organization, they just lost out on the Todd Frazier sweepstakes so they have a package to offer for a big bat. I have no idea if there is mutual interest but I think it is possible.

  12. Won’t get much for anybody not named Iggy.Right now we need to find out if we have any young pitcher that will step up and claim a job for next year.The rest of our team is what it is.Must use our dollars wisely especially regarding Cozy and Hamilton if they are being considered to be a part of next year’s team.I can’t see us spending much to keep either and personally I wouldn’t because that would cost 15 mil and its better spent elsewhere.

  13. I was so glad to see Price say this:

    http://www.cincinnati.com/story/sports/mlb/reds/2017/07/18/price-time-reds-define-2018-rotation/490344001/

    “These last 10 weeks are very important because I think we have to have a vision of what our starting rotation is going to look like in 2018, but we have to have that vision in 2017,” manager Bryan Price said. “I think it’s going to be very difficult to come in and say, talk about, being really competitive if the vision isn’t — if we don’t know what 2018 is going to look like, at least from the outset.”

    It’s not as if the Reds haven’t tried. A total of 13 different pitchers started for the Reds through the first 93 games of the season, seven of those rookies.

    Of those, it would be tough to say that any of them have removed doubts about their ability to be a part of a productive rotation in 2018.

    “I think it’s trying to define who we have in our system that’s ready to pitch here and who we can optimistically feel is going to be able to hold down a spot in the rotation instead of being on a tryout basis,” Price said of the plan moving forward.

    Just who will get the first opportunity to take Feldman’s spot in the rotation on Saturday, Price wouldn’t say on Tuesday. It could be Asher Wojciechowski, who pitched five strong innings in relief of Feldman on Monday, or fellow rookies Jackson Stephens or Robert Stephenson.

    “I’d imagine that we’d have to continue to give young guys opportunities to pitch up here and learn up here,” Price said before Tuesday’s game, as one of those rookies, Sal Romano, was scheduled to make his third career big-league start hours later. “I think we’re eventually going to have to look into finding something from outside as we move forward that can really be something to build around. A strong health history would probably be a good place to start.”

    …..

    “There’s no loss of confidence in what we think Garrett and Reed and Rookie Davis and Jackson Stephens can do,” Price said. “Now it’s a matter that you do have to perform to the level that warrants to getting another opportunity. That’s just how life is, not just baseball.

    “If you’re a teller at a bank and you’re $500 short every day, you’re not going in the right direction. You’re probably not going to be a teller very long. I think our young guys are learning that this is a performance-based business, it’s not personal. We love our guys and we’re optimistic about our guys in our system and we have faith in what they’re going to be able to do, but they also have to do it.”

    • It is a performance based business and that means Price needs to go. Obviously, there are a ton of issues that aren’t his fault but they can’t fire all the players. They also can’t exchange the franchise for the White Sox. Now that’s how you run a rebuild! They’ll be the next Astros if 1/3 of those guys pan out! Sad thing is….Price is so slow to react to anything and that has to be coming from DW? If he was bucking their plans then he would’ve been gone long ago.

      As for last night….I actually didn’t think Romano was that bad. A lot of groundballs that found holes. I like that he gets some downward tilt on the ball and generates grounders. I noticed he only allowed 1 hr in 49 ip at Lville. He still needs a 3rd pitch…change, curve, or splitter? Take your lumps this year and work on a 3rd pitch and conditioning in the offseason. If he can pepper the strike zone and mix it up better then 97-98mph with a downward tilt plays with the big boys. Get rid of Adleman and Wood yesterday. Even Bonilla has twice the stuff of Adleman and atleast could improve in theory. Feldman in middle relief. Bring up Jimmy Herget and Tyler Mahle after that. Do whatever you have to do with the 40 man but get it done. Alcantara is useless. Get rid of him. Kivlehan has some pop….like to see him play more vs lefties and see if he could produce? Why not platoon w/Scooter at 2B? There is no reason to watch these guys unless they blow it up and truly rebuild.

      • I would suggest the majors is not the place to work on a third pitch for Romano. That needs to take place at Louisville if he doesn’t have a third pitch he can throw effectively. There were a couple of seeing-eye hits, but there were also some line shots into the gaps, and he was wild all over the place.

        • I don’t know about wild all over the place. He had a bunch of pitches that were a tad off the plate that were called balls. I guess I could go back and watch the game but I’d rather watch paint dry. The guy should get a few more starts to see if he learns and improves. Anybody who thinks wojo or Bonilla should get a start needs to be removed. Those 2 plus Adleman and Feldman have no future on this rebuild. They need to be removed and sent packing. There are plenty of other average players in the minors that can long relief. Stephens got 1 start . Bring him up. Sept 1st needs to hsve A few people up here as well. Senzel needs to be 1 of them. If anything just for the experience.

  14. Is there something about this team and the big inning? I spent way more time than I like to admit yesterday trying to find some stat about how many times this season the Reds have given up 5+ runs in an inning (3 times in the last 5 games) and all I came up with is the Orioles setting or tieing a record for most consecutive games giving up 5+. If anyone knows a way to check on this I would be curious to know if this is all in my head and the Reds are doing it the same amount as the rest of the league or if we are in a league of our own. Because right now it seems like the Reds are really good (aka bad) at it.

    • I went back with the Reds numbers and changed it to 4+ runs. In 29 games the Reds have given up at least one inning of 4+ runs. They are 2-27 in those games. 4 run innings: 14 times; 5 run innings: 12 times; 6+ run innings: 8 times. Conversely, the Reds have 19 games where they have had 4+ runs in an inning. They are 12-7 in those games. 4 run innings: 13 times; 5 run innings: 6 times; 6+ run innings: 2 times.

      The optimist side is in games where the Reds haven’t given up a big inning they are 37-27. So they got that going for them.

  15. I agree with Price but what does he consider performing to the level that warrants getting another opportunity.Lets see is it the way Bronson performed or Aldeman or even Feldman who was at league average.Don’t tell me if given the same number of starts and not having to worry about being sent down if you mess up that 3 or 4 other guys could have done just as well as the 3 I mentioned.How about we give these young guys the same opportunity.Its a double standard and is not comparing apples to apples.You could be Cy Young and have two or three bad outings in a row and be sent down on this team.Yet we give a guys like Peraza 400 at bats and probably 200 more to prove he can’t get on base.

  16. I have thought this through and I am giving up hope of ever seeing any young pitcher being given more then a handful of starts before being sent down.I agree nobody has earned anything so I suggest we just let them remain in the minors or better yet lets just get rid of all of them.Nobody we have now or ever will have is not going to struggle when they come up to the big leagues and that’s a fact.If we won’t let them learn on the job in a year that we lose 90 to 95 games or next year when we do the same then lets just forget about developing pitchers.By the way Amir got the most starts of any young guy with 12.He had 5 stinkers,4 really good ones and 3 average compared to everybody else.

    • We have all said it before that AAA strike zone is different and the hutters are not major leaguers. These guys should be send down to learn for a couple of games and then brought back up. Our starting staff should be Homer and 4 rookies. They aren’t kids anymore for godsakes. They are young men. We have no problem letting 18 year Olds get shot at in Afghanstan but we csnt have our poor pitchers learn on the job and get toasted some nights? My God people it’s sink or swim . Quite babying them.

  17. Thank you Jack.Price and his comments make us think nobody should be up here pitching unless they dominate every inning and every pitch in the minors.Good grief man I have said it before as well Homer and 4 rookies and lets go.We hand starting jobs to Bronson,Feldman and Aldeman and watch them get hammered 6 out of 10 starts but we make the young guys earn an opportunity to pitch in the big leagues.By the way I believe Aldeman goes tonight so anybody want to watch him with average stuff or say somebody else when better stuff,Results may be the same but I will take the younger guy with better stuff every time.

  18. We all want to see Price turn the young pitchers loose but they have to go 5 innings! Romano didn’t make it last night. Bob Steve could barely make it thru 2 innings of long relief when he was here earlier. I will always think Arroyo was idiotic from the start but they’ll be stuck w/Feldmans, Adlemans, Wojo’s, etc til these guys can quit walking so many people and get thru some innings. Get ready for a Bartolo Colon signing in December!

    • It’s not like Adleman, Arroyo and the rest were getting thru 5 so what’s your point? The young guys might as well pitch because the old guys can’t. We are going to lose 90 to 100 no matter what so you might as well lose wirh the young guys learning on the job. I think Price has been handed so many excuses by the upper echelon that he doesn’t even know what’s going on. Let’s take Bob Steve for example. He is at the point in his career where either he gets it or he doesnt. How long they going to wait ? Until he is 30? Like,Welsh said if you get 2 out of 10 guys that make it then you are doing good. It’s time for him and Reed to come up and pitch the rest of the year. We are getting bombed anyways so it might as well be learning on the job.

      • Adleman goes 5 almost every time. They don’t allow the surrender rule at this level so the Reds must pitch for 9 innings. Romano, Reed, Stephenson, and Garrett can’t do it….or atleast haven’t done it. Reed walked 6 in 5ip last night at Lville. Don’t get me wrong, I say turn Jackson Stephens, Tyler Mahle, etc loose….or better yet, start stretching out Lorenzen and/or Peralta. Why not? They’ve already thrown away 60% of the season and its been nothing close to a full rebuild.

        • So Adleman goes 5 and gives up 5 and you’re ok with that? Who cares if he goes 5 . He doesn’t belong on a roster. And I don’t care if a guy is at AA . If he is better than what’s ahead of him then get him up here. Other teams are doing it. Mahle needs to come up and DFA Adleman,Wood,Alcantara, etc. If dome other team picks them up good for us. Our hitters can tee off on them. If the Reds are losing on purpose to get the top pick then that’s terrible ownership. It’s not hockey. Tanking for the rights to a Sidney Crosby won’t happen.

          • I’m on your side! The point I’m trying to make is that 9 innings have to be pitched….one way or the other. If the starter is so bad that he can’t get thru 5 then that puts way too much on the bullpen and someone is going to get hurt.

            For example: Bob Steve vs Toronto….Garrett against anyone post-April. So many line drives that their health was in danger and I’m not kidding. They literally got pounded out of the box. They made Adleman look like Orel Hershiser. Some of those guys have got to step up so its obvious that they’re better then Adleman.

  19. I agree we need 5 innings or more every night.However I went back and did some math an out of the 49 games that Bronson,Feldman and Aldeman started they pitched 5 innings or less 30 times.It means that 60% of the time they don’t make it past the 5th.Now we could have started 3 young guys and been worse but we know nothing because we haven’t given them a chance.Our starters have set records in being worse then anybody ever has been and we want to hold young guys to a you must earn it standard and talk about a performance based business.We are so bad right now if a guy goes 6 innings we anoint him as the next Cy Young.Remember Garrett and now Castillo.My parting words and for the last time.Let the young guys pitch please.

  20. I like the surrender rule Indy.How about if we get 5 innings from our starter and we are ahead we win because its such a rare event?That may get us another win or two and save the pen as well.Man I am stinking the place up so I am gone for awhile.Got the feeling we hammer Grienke and Aldeman goes 6 and we win.

  21. ‘Member when the Reds had all these good pitching prospects?

    Well where are they?

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