Titanic Struggle Recap

Finnegan’s ache

After Homer Bailey’s start on Saturday, Jim Day asked Bryan Price if Homer made it through the game healthy. It was asked in a positive, silver-lining sort of way. Seemed like a reasonable question/comment to me. Price blasted Day — Jim Day — for asking. Of course Homer was healthy! Don’t you know they don’t bring pitchers up unless they’ve finished their rehab and are healthy! Price went on and on, gracelessly.

I don’t know if I’m allowed to use this word at Redleg Nation, but I’m going to for now. Price came across to me as a complete ass, given the context. Really rubbed me the wrong way. Not for the first time.

Anyhow, Jim Day must be feeling vindicated today. Not that it would be anything he or anyone else would have hoped for.

If Bryan Price gets fired at the end of this year, I can’t say I’ll miss him.

Yes, the good guys got obliterated today. But they’re still 7-3 against St. Louis this year and 14 of the last 23. So there.

From the better news department: Zack Cozart is holding on to a lead in All-Star Game voting to start at the shortstop position. There are four days left to vote. Vote for Zack here. If Cozart ends up the starting SS for the NL, you have to wonder if the Reds will hold off trading him until after the game. All-Star Game is July 11. Trading deadline July 31. #VoteZack

Cincinnati Reds 2  St. Louis Cardinals 8 || Box || Play Log || Statcast

Brandon Finnegan gave up three runs in the first inning on two walks and a homer. He walked two more in the 2nd and 3rd inning. He was making his first start after missing two months because of shoulder problems. Finnegan left the game in the third inning, clearly wincing after delivering his third pitch of the 4th inning. Seemed like he was favoring his left shoulder. Devin Mesoraco noticed it and called for Price and the trainer. Finnegan didn’t push back on being taken out.

Shoulder injuries are a lot dicier than elbow problems. Surgery is much less straight forward and successful. The Reds have been through this with Raisel Iglesias. Brandon Finnegan is only 24. There’s plenty of time for surgery and restore a successful career. The Reds might have to consider using him in the bullpen after this, like Iglesias. I’m not sure that isn’t the best role for him regardless of shoulder issues.

The Reds announced toward the end of the game that Finnegan has a strained left tricep muscle. The tricep is the muscle that connects the back of the shoulder to the back of the elbow. The word “strain” means a tear. The muscle tear can be either partial or complete. Grades 1-3.  It’s a relatively rare injury. “He’s got a sore shoulder,” said Chris Welsh. Recovery times are long for strained triceps. Even minor cases can take weeks. With a full tear, surgery would result in 6 months or more recovery time.

The Reds have plenty, plenty of candidates at AAA to take Finnegan’s place in the rotation. Tyler Mahle starts today for the Louisville Bats, so he’s the SP on turn. But Mahle isn’t on the 40-man roster. Cody Reed pitched yesterday for the Bats. There’s always #FreeLorenzen

Austin Brice took over for Finnegan and pitched two innings. He gave up 5 runs on 9 hits. Brice did strike out three. Everything (.727 BABIP) was falling in for the Cardinals against Brice.

Wandy Peralta came in with bases loaded and no outs. He induced a double play and another ground ball to get out of the inning with no further damage. Peralta then pitched a clean 7th inning.

Michael Lorenzen pitched the 8th inning, gave up a hit, struck out one, no runs.

More on the bullpen tomorrow at noon.

Jose Peraza, who was leading off presumably because he won a sprint contest before the game, softly singled in the first inning. He was thrown out by Yadi Molina trying to steal 2B. Peraza had another hit later in the game.

Scott Schebler had two hits. Joey Votto had a single, double and a walk. Adam Duvall had a hit and two sacrifice flies, driving in the Reds only runs.

95 thoughts on “Finnegan’s ache

  1. Rare are the times when I start watching the game and just can’t bear to finish it, even if I have nothing else pressing. But today was one of those times.

    “Jose Peraza, who was leading off presumably because he won a sprint contest before the game, softly singled in the first inning.” … Very nice line, pretty much sums it up.

    At least Iglesias could throw strikes before he got relegated to the bullpen. If Finnegan can’t throw strikes, is he any more useful in the pen than in the rotation?

  2. Sometimes its just flat out bad luck with the Reds. Gio Gonzalez (32 this year) is going for the Nats tonite (2.96 era). I remember he shutdown the Reds with Oakland years ago and they were talking about dealing him. We paid a ton for Latos (30 this year) instead and the Nats got Gonzalez. Here we are and Latos has been basically done for 2 years now and Gonzalez is still going strong!

    • Gio was a great trade for the Nats but so was Latos. Latos had two very good seasons for the Reds exactly when they needed him to, and then you can’t forget the Reds traded Latos for DeSclafani, who won’t be a free agent until 2021. The Latos trade plus subsequent flip are neck and neck with the Suarez acquisition in my book.

  3. If it’s indeed a strained triceps and not the shoulder, then good news. But good grief, he is spreading around the injuries to the muscle groups.

    Reds just can’t win with their starting pitchers (some of it self-imposed), between injuries and sub par performances the young candidates are dropping like flies. We still have time with them and there are at least a couple more that could come on later but this is proving to be by far the hardest part of the sorting process.

    • Strained triceps aren’t as complicated as shoulder injuries or likely as serious as a rotator cuff tear. But from what I’ve read, even mild ones you’re talking about weeks to take care of it. If it’s a full tear, it means surgery and 6-9 months of rehab. I’m not very familiar with this injury, but that’s what I’ve read in the past few minutes.

      • No doubt. He’s head back to the DL list and it’s unlikely that this is just a 10 day stint. But a shoulder injury would have portended to a much greater and darker outlook for his career.

  4. I appreciate the James Joyce reference. Sophisticated crowd here at the Nation!

    • I’m sophisticated enough to have thought that Steve was alluding to the Irish bar song, but then again there wasn’t much fun at Finnegan’s ache.

  5. The Reds are probably going to maintain that this is a different injury than Finnegan’s prior injury but it is had to accept that a properly healed, healthy and fully conditioned shoulder area would suffer a second unrelated injury just 15 innings (counting rehab) post recovery.

    It is almost as if somebody decreed Bailey and Finnegan would reappear when they did regardless of whether they were truly ready.

    I hope that someday we find out why the org seems so adverse to just giving the ball to Reed and Stephenson as starters at the MLB level this year to see what they would do. It’s not like they need to be that good to be no worse than the parade of pretenders we have seen.

    • My first reaction, too. Has to be the same injury. But in reading about it and listening to the post-game interviews from Price and Finnegan, it sounds like a triceps tear. That’s a thing. It’s pretty easy to diagnose because of the location, but you really need an MRI to be sure of the severity.

      That said, it could easily be *related* to the shoulder injury. Both the shoulder joint and tricep muscles absorb stress from throwing. If Finnegan’s shoulder has been weak (which we know it has been) that could have been putting more stress on the triceps muscle all this time. Little tears along the way. Same way that the flexor mass and UCL interact in the elbow.

      They’ll know tomorrow. You might be right.

  6. In terms of Price, I have to imagine he’s frustrated constantly being question for everything he does, at the same time that comes with the job and he does give us a lot to question. I used to be big on him up until that big F bomb tirade and since then not really cared for him as a manager, especially with a lot of his moves and questionable management. In terms of the triceps, I strained my right triceps muscle two years agoI couldn’t do any lifting or physical activity with it for three months. Hopefully is less severe than mine was and he isn’t sidelined long.

  7. Wasn’t Finnagan’s injury initially called a lat issue? now they announce this injury as a strained tricep? I hope he’s back healthy next year, but shoulder injuries are difficult to come back from.

  8. I’m not saying this is the case, but players really need to be honest with the themselves, coaches, and medical staff. Young players in particular, who think they are invincible or are not patient enough. Playing through injuries can be heroic but also, in the end, let yourself and your teammates down. Of course, management can’t try to rush recuperation either. It would seem that a rehab protocol for whatever injury is pretty well documented. Either the protocol is wrong, wasn’t followed, or symptoms (lots of little tears) not caught.

  9. Is there something in the official rules about there needing to be a “live” pitcher on the mound? Can’t we just set up a batting practice pitching machine… it would cost less and do more.

  10. Maybe we should have kept J.C. Ramirez. He has 7 wins. Oh well; we have Homer with 60 career wins.

  11. I am wth Steve on Price. It would le actually gladden me if Price was not our coach next year.

  12. Tyler Mahle wouldn’t mind pitching in Finnegan’s spot. 6ip, 4 hits, 3 unearned runs, 1 bb, 9Ks tonite. Why not? If they want to reward young guys for throwing strikes? Everyone else walks 5 guys per 9 ip.

  13. Bring Mahle up and lets see what he’s got.I don’t expect that line he put up tonight especially the 1 walk because the hitters are better and the strike zone is smaller.You earn your way to the big leagues by performing in the minors.You stay by being able to make the adjustments.Castillo was a strike thrower in the minors I believe and he walked 5 in 5 innings so now lets see the adjustment in start number two.I know some don’t agree but I feel learning to pitch at the big league level is truly the only way to go.In fact you never know until they do if they can or can’t.

  14. If Bryan Price gets fired at the end of this year, I can’t say I’ll miss him.

    He could get fired tomorrow and I wouldn’t miss him for a second.

  15. Wow. What is becoming the point of all of this? I’m now 30, the reds have won one playoff series I can remember and Eddie taubensee was catching and I now think he should be in the reds hall of fame before Bronson and Brandon cause at least he won one playoff series as a red, just one. If I could sum up being a Cincy sports fan
    … “Finnegan’s first start from the 60 dl resulted in a seasoning ending torn tricep.” That pretty much does it. Or maybe, ” Steelers playoff game won, lost fumble.” Perhaps, ” 2-0 lead, historic home collapse against Giants.” “Roy Halladay was literally never good again after that but wow he no hit the reds in a play off game.” Well, on the bright side, they don’t fund themselves, they are funded by taxpayers….. Whew😎

  16. Someone disagree with me.
    This team cannot win 90-95 games in 2018 and all decision making needs to focus on maximizing 2019.
    I don’t blame anyone for the reds pitching injuries.. Julio Urias…the Dodgers phenom has major structural damage to his shoulder…a top 5 prospect in all of baseball.
    Finnegan may be the poster child for what is wrong….hard working..max effort….throw year round….110% effort guy. He’s the first player ever to pitch in the college world series and MLB world series in the same year….How? Max effort…max velocity..
    In the 1990’s ….the genesis of the PED era was not Barry bonds or Sammy Sosa…it was the middle reliever in August trying to get a contract next year…with a dead arm…it was the young gun…who wanted to make the starting rotation. Hitters now laugh at 95 mph…so pitchers are trying harder.

    Chicks dig the long ball….Well…mlb scouts and college coaches dig velocity….and if you can hit 90 mph…they’ll sign you. It’s now routine for 17 year olds who weigh 160 pounds and pitch 10 months a year to hit 88-90 mph…that’s not normal. Competitors won’t slow down…they are hard wired to do more….Billy Hamilton played after having his wisdom teeth removed. Why???
    The reds need to spend more time finding the next Bronson Arroyo ( version 1) or Mike Leake or Tom Browning or Tom Glavine. I want to see Tyler Mahle…maybe he has that profile….I thought Disco was……uggghhhh.

    • Given the Reds offense, defense, and bullpen, it all comes down to the starting pitching (which is still a huge question mark/black hole). Anthony DeSclafani, Brandon Finnegan, Homer Bailey, Robert Stephenson, Cody Reed, Amir Garrett, Rookie Davis, Sal Romano, Luis Castillo, Tyler Mahle, Michael Lorenzen, Tim Adleman…these are all potential starting pitchers for next year. If somehow the Reds can form a healthy and effective rotation using five of those, they can compete. If not, it will be another disaster of a season.

      • Given the health/durability questions regarding Bailey and DeSclafani, it would make sense for the Reds to trade for a young #1 or #2 starting pitcher this winter with multiple years of team control remaining. What would it take to get Chris Archer from the Rays? He is under team control for up to four more seasons. What about Sonny Gray from Oakland, who is under team control for three more seasons? If Toronto ends up rebuilding, what about Marcus Stroman, with four years of control left?

    • I doubt that the Reds will 90-95 games next year, but don’t believe that it’s impossible. Otherwise, I can’t disagree; with you, Old-School.

    • They only compete for a playoff spot in 2018 or even 2019 if they kick start the rotation pitching by bringing in established outside talent; they probably need 2 guys.who are solid 3+ to 2 slot guys. I’m thinking one is via FA, the other via trade.

      • That makes a ton of sense. Spend $15-$20 million/year on an ace free agent, then make a trade for a #2 starting pitcher that has several years of control left. That pitcher will be cost-controlled or just coming off the first year of arbitration.

        The worst case scenario with that plan is that the Reds wind up with too much starting pitching in 2018. They could then stash some in AAA or the bullpen, or use it as trade bait for other needed pieces down the road.

        • I wait a year….then execute this plan if internal solutions have not materialized.

        • $15-$20-million a year unfortunately doesn’t buy you an ace. It buys you a #3 kind of guy in today’s market.

      • A month ago I was of the 2018 problem solving opinion that the Reds should package a group for Sonny gray and sign the next mythical Mike Leake equivalent in FA. After seeing the draft and performance of the Reds young players…. I think they wait it out.
        Build the best farm system in baseball.
        Let 2018 be the season of starting pitcher sorting and minor league sorting. Aristides Aquino and Phil Ervin aren’t looking so good now.

        The reds now have 4 untouchables.
        Nick senzel. Taylor Trammel.Tyler Stephenson and Hunter greene. Billy Hamilton and Zach Cozart and likely Devon Mesoraco aren’t players on the next great reds team. Get another elite draft in 2018 and a year from the now the Reds have the best farm system in baseball.
        Then go for it.

  17. Price is a good pitching coach for veterans. I think he is a bad pitching coach for young unproven guys who need to develop. Wrong guy as manager for the circumstances in 2017. Great guy as pitching coach in 2012.
    With it harder and harder to envision a playoff caliber team for 2018….when do you hire the next manager? I think this off-season. They have to get the right guy though. It will be the biggest test of the new DW era.

  18. Price needs to go after the season if for no other reason than signaling to the players time to change and move this forward a notch. I hope they can find a top tier pitching coach, the kind that gets accolades, like the guy in Pittsburgh did the past few years.

    I hope we don’t end up with one of many of Reds past pitching coaches that could take lemonade and end up with rotten lemons.

  19. Thought Price should have been fired after his first season. No reason Dusty should have been fired in the first place. But it’s the Reds and I just expect things to not go well. Just fast forward me to 2020 when all the top prospects are hopefully up and we are in better position to win some games.

    • The Reds were right to fire Dusty. It turns out it was wrong to hire Price.

      We didn’t know it at the time, but Price is more like Dusty Jr. than what we were led to believe. Still stuck on old-fashioned ideas, and a poor understanding of how to win in today’s game.

        • Bryce Harper is a #1 overall pick…Strasburg #1 overall pick…scherzer high first round pick..Turner first round pick.rendon first pick..Zimmerman first pick….they have 2 cy young candidates and 3 MVP candidates. Dusty’s aunt could win 95 games.

  20. Well, just another game and another failty outing by another starter, either coming off DL or a under-performing rookie. Also, going 1-7 with RISP does not help the cause either. As told before, I don’t see this rebuiding process going anywhere.

  21. Price needs to go soon! Hire Mike Sarbaugh, let him put his staff together and work with our players the rest of this year, so that he has an idea of the players he’s dealing with. Don’t judge him on wins and losses for the second half of 2017 and let him develop the core of the future Reds. Sarbaugh is still coaching 3rd for the Indians. The first place Indians. He must be absorbing so much from Francona and will incorporate it into his already successful style of managing. Please Reds FO, go get him while he’s still available.

    • The Indians aren’t going to let him out of his contract mid season when they’re in first place without compensation. There’s no reason to give up anything of value for someone you’ll likely fire in 3 years.

      While I think it’s time for a change, you do understand that Terry Francona’s Phillies teams performed about as poorly as Price’s Reds teams? You do understand that the Francina led 2011 Red Sox had the biggest collapse in history? If Sarbaugh is such a winner, why did the Tribe blow a 3-1 WS lead? Couldn’t he have inspired them in at least 1 of those games?

      If given the same level of talent, Sarbaugh wins about as many games as Price. As does Francona. These guys aren’t miracle workers. This isn’t football where you can outscheme people ( at least in the short run) or basketball where 1 tremendous player can make a huge difference.

      • Particularly like your point about scheming. By and large It is the front offices in baseball where scheming comes into play, not on the field.
        However I do think the increased use of shifts based on analytics is bringing concepts of scheming to the field.
        Still, the decision to apply the resources into the data crunching that make effective shifts possible comes from above; and, an FO that has made that decision is not going to abide a manager that doesn’t effectively apply the output to the limit of the talent on the field.

      • Are you in the Indians FO? How do you know what the Indians will do? Are you in the Reds FO that you know the next manager hired, will be fired in 3 years? Sarbaugh is the third base coach and not the manager, but has an extensive track record as a winner as a player, coach and manager in the minors. Price had none of that before becoming the Reds manager.
        Francona is a far better manager than Price and has managed winning seasons.
        Francona is managing in his 17th season, Price will be the luckiest guy on earth if he gets to manage in the majors again in his life.

        • Francona’s winnning percentage for his first 4 years as a manager is almost the exact same as Price’s. His Phillies teams sucked. He took over the Red Sox a year removed from a Game 7 loss in the ALCS.

          Price was a pitching coach for 13 years and his teams made the playoffs 5 times and won 90+ games 7. The 01′ Mariners won 116 games.

          I’m sure the Reds will be mesmerized by Sarbaugh’s tales of greatness from his time managing the Lake County Captains and the Mahoning Valley Scrappers. If you can win in the Penn New York League you can easily master the NL Central.

  22. 1. Love the title of this blog post. The literary pun made me laugh!

    2. I think enough time has passed to say that Price is in over his head. He’s clearly not up to the job when it comes to dealing with the media. I suspect he’s not up to the job when it comes to making tough decisions that ruffle players’ feathers. In my opinion, he’s DEFINITELY not up to the job when it comes to setting the expectation to win. He comes across as whiny. He comes across as someone who has lost his competitive edge and really doesn’t want to be where he is. He comes across as someone who doesn’t have the emotional maturity to persevere despite all the obstacles. He seems to have internalized losing so much that he doesn’t expect anything better.

    Make no mistake, I understand that managing the Reds is far from an easy job. (Especially under the current ownership and front office.) But life is full of tough jobs. Winners don’t fling excuses around. Winners do the tough jobs, without complaining.

    3. Buck Showalter’s contract with the O’s expires at the end of the 2018 season. At the end of the 2017 season, the Reds should try to see if they can lure him away a year early.

    • How exactly would one ” set the expectation to win” when you’ve been extremely outmanned for the past 3 years? Did Joe Torre set an expectation to win while he managed the hapless Mets? Did Pinella with the Rays? The win one for the gipper stuff doesn’t work at the MLB level. It’s all about the talent.

      This isn’t college basketball. The Reds can’t prey Showalter away without losing picks and paying fines for tampering. Have you seen the Orioles pitching? I guess Buck doesn’t have the magic pixie dust either when he has limited talent at his disposal.

      • They weren’t outmanned by the Padres! Price needs to go, if for no other reason then you can’t fire the team. When you lose this much in pro sports then you get fired!!
        Strategy wise….the safety squeeze w/Bailey on Saturday was a microcosm of Price on the field. You give up the 2nd out to setup Billy (1-for-June) with 2 men on…inning over. Completely idiotic and verifies the fact that he doesn’t know his own personnel…let alone the opponents? Inexecusable!

        It doesn’t matter in the end….you lose this much & you get fired. He won’t survive the season. Big Bob will feel like he has to do something to show the fans that he’s still awake.

        • I actually agree that it’s time for him to go. I just don’t believe that there’s a Unicorn manager out there that wins with this team.

          Yes, Price makes strategy mistakes…Sparky shouldn’t have pitched to Bernie Carbo. Maddon shouldn’t have used Chapman 3 innings in a 4 run game. Torre should’ve walked Big Popi. Rose shouldn’t have overused Soto in the games he bet on. They all make strategy mistakes.

        • Fire, as you described it, has to come from inside the clubhouse, not just the manager’s, office.

          To that end, I liked that Bailey was obviously agitated about some things his team mates did or did not do during his short stint in DC; but, after the game put all the blame on his own shoulders to the media and fans.

          I also liked that there were some long stares from the dugout at Votto who was still still standing at 1B after the high long throw towards home on Duvall’s 1st sac fly Monday.

          Note that both these incidents involved mental lapses, not physical errors. Maybe change is starting to come.

          • I wondered about the Votto play. Seemed to me like he should have been at 2B. Throw nowhere near cutoff man. I had the audio off both radio and tv at the time (trying to get a break from the Brennamen), so I wondered what Chris Welsh said about it.

          • I “listen” to the TV feed with the volume muted and closed caption turned on. TB and Chris did discuss the play. However I lost track of exactly who was saying what. The gist was why was Votto still standing at 1st when the throw was obviously coming in high, wide and long. The final comment was “He is a very conservative base runner”. If it was made by TB, it was probably a shill cover up. If Chris said it, it was most likely said with inflection which indicated it was a facetious remark.

      • Where a manager can really make a difference sometimes is at the margins. It’s up for debate just how much that it matters as far as wins and losses. Most folks who have done the research would tend to agree with you that it’s not a lot of games worth of moving the needle. Still, 4-6 more wins when a team is actually in the hunt matters. I guess it all depends on how close you think the Reds are to competing.

    • I love the O’s and Buck has done a great job with them. That said, I am very hesitant to think he’d be the right guy to manage the Reds. The fans would probably like him, at least for a while as he is a Cincinnati type of guy. That said, he’s got a lot of old-school ways just like most managers do. If you put me on the spot about who then, I’d probably go with Dave Martinez. That said, I don’t know either of them personally and have no magical insight. I’m just an O’s fan who’s seen a lot of Buck Showalter from the outside looking in.

  23. I’n neither a pitching coach nor an orthopedic physician, but it looked pretty obvious to me that Finnegan couldn’t keep the ball down.Being Brandon, he tried too hard. This kid has yet to learn that his body has limitations. It’s pointless to argue whether Finnegan needed another rehab start , but it is pertinent to question whether Price & Jenkins learned anything at all last night.

  24. A previous post gets it right that Price is a good pitching coach with a veteran staff but not when the sorting process is going on. The Peter Principle is a dated sociological concept, but it applies to Price since he has been promoted to his incompetence.

  25. I think the pressure is getting to Price.
    After the game he was waiting (dreading/fearing) for someone to ask him if Homer was healthy enough to start.
    But that is NOT what Jim Day asked him. Price answered a different question. Day was just asking if Homer made it through the start okay but Price took it as questioning whether Homer was really ready to pitch again.

  26. Finnegan begin (rehab) again.
    Tough last 4 days to stack onto the misery of losing 10 of 11. The bullpen blowing up Friday night and giving away Castillo’s MLB debut win. Bailey’s crash and burn in his season debut was miserable to sit through. Bailey didn’t look right from the outset. Feldman rights the ship on Sunday. And Finnegan getting hurt again yesterday really gives this team a double gut punch. I’d say Finnegan is done for this season. What a tremendous disappointment the last few days have been. I’m sure everyone with the team has a disappointment level beyond ours.
    With Milwaukee and Chicago heading to town, there is no time to wallow around in pity now. This is where we see what kind of manager Bryan Price is. If his players are ready for the challenge ahead this week and play with heart and hustle, win or lose, then he has my support. No jumping from the bandwagon for me.
    But if the Reds look listless this week and look like they are just going through the motions, then it is time to move on to a new manager. This week, or rather until the all-star break, it is make or break time for Bryan Price.

  27. Being an out of towner.. pre and post game shows get cut off on the package. Where was this interview where Price carpetbombed Jim Day. Was it televised?
    Tough couple of days.

    • Post-game interview on FSO. Really tough to watch. Not as bad (or profane) as previous outburst, but totally uncalled for given the nature of the question and questioner.

      • Very, very few in the business; precious few in fact, that are as good a person as Jim Day.

  28. The Pirates pitching coach Ray Searage gets lots of accolades for getting more out of his pitchers and resurrecting careers than all other pitching coaches put together.
    But there is one interesting thing too about Searage. He is having a tough time too developing his highly regarded, young pitching prospects. Garrett Cole has had his issues at times. Taillon has come into his own this year, but it has been a long road. The highly regarded Tyler Glasnow has his pitch location problems and has been demoted. Young pitchers Trevor Williams and Chad Kuhl have had plenty of issues this year.
    Non-development of young pitching is not a Reds only issue. But it is sure tough to see one after the other fail and / or get hurt.

    • Agree with most of what you said except in regards to Taillon. He’s been great from the get go. The only thing that stopped him this sophomore year was cancer (testicular?), and he’s rebounded from that pretty well, too. He’s been everything they ever hoped for, outperforming the more hyped Glasnow thus far.

      Reed and Stephenson, OTOH….were set up to fail – or at best terribly managed – by Price from the beginning. Price gets a pass on the Garrett mismanagement, that had to have come from above, Williams (or is it still Jocketty as has been speculated…)

  29. I thought Price was a great pitching coach and I was glad they hired him. In hindsight though…they just had a lot of veterans that could eat innings effectively and save the pen. As a manager though….its been a total $#&%storm for Price. The majority of it is not his fault but some of it is! Nobody can/should survive this much losing and I’m sure he knows it! I guess they could see if they make a 2nd half run like last year but with what? A bunch of unproven kids and Bailey, Wojo, and Bonilla? They should let him go at the break. Dead man walking doesn’t make for a good atmosphere.

    • Price would probably be a very good manager for the team situation the Reds had when they had Dusty who aside from his in game lack of urgency is the perfect prototype for a manager in that situation. That manager sets the tone by talking accountability, professionalism etc while the top sergeants in the clubhouse (i.e. Rolen and Arroyo most notably for Dusty) shape and enforce it.

      Price has had no top sergeants during his entire tenure. The torch might have passed from Rolen to Votto except that Votto was immersed in recovering from injury as Price took the helm and now appears to be totally inwardly focused. Mesoraco’s emergence in 2014 might have positioned him to lead except that he then missed the next two years with injury. Same with a maturing Bailey on the pitching side.

      At the time Price was hired I thought he was a mistake because he was too much a part of the previous regime which had lost control of the team (check the RLN archives for what I said then). Now I think he is too much a part of the last two, becoming three, seasons of largely aimless futility. I’m not into playing a blame game or asking has it been a fair look for him. The issue is that what has happened; has happened; and, there is no way to clear the slate and give him a fresh start with the Reds.

      My guess is there is a strong chance that if the Reds don’t play something approaching on even keel between now and the All Star break, we will see a change made. It will probably be Riggleman as a caretaker followed by DW installing his own guy early in the offseason.

      • Price has benefitted from the fact that the Reds haven’t cared who their manager was the past two seasons. He’s dealt with a lot of injuries, and he certainly isn’t the primary reason the Reds record is what it has been. But it’s hard to see any positives from him, either. Next guy might be worse, might be better. Fodder for a longer post, but will be interesting to see how next manager plays out. Ownership decision, but GM/President play role in educating ownership about options/needs.

      • I just threw up in my mouth a little at the thought of Riggleman. Honestly, I’d rather keep Prince until the end of the season than put up with one, just one, Jim Riggleman presser. Ugh, can’t stand the guy. Very few people I can say that about.

  30. Take yesterday for example. The role of Lorenzen is supposed to be a high leverage reliever. The role of Brice is supposed to be in less crucial situations. The Reds score 1 to cut the deficit to 3-1. Finnegan is hurt and goes out. Isn’t Lorenzen supposed to pitch in 3-1 games and Brice in the 8-1 games? He brought Lorenzen into the 3rd inning in Pittsburgh even though that seems like a diff year and a diff manager now? Joe Maddon had Wellington Castillo leadoff yesterday….he hit a HR and they won by 1 run. Yes…the Reds have outscored the Cubs but we need more runs with our pitching. We can’t afford stupid lineups and guys leading off that go 4 for June? You gotta go and don’t let the door hit you!

  31. Regarding managers: There’s a tremendous book titled Evaluating Baseball’s Managers (2009) by Chris Jaffe. It’s in paperback now. My local library ordered it for me and I read it a few years ago.

    The first part of the book analyzes how to evaluate a baseball manager. Jaffe’s conclusion is that about half the manager’s impact is in the clubhouse and half is game strategy and tactics (lineup, playing time, in-game decisions). His estimate is that a manager is worth a handful of games (less than five) a year. The writing is analytical, but not overly statistical, if I remember right.

    The second part of the book covers specific managers over the years 1876-2008. That part is also interesting, although I preferred the first part. If you like baseball history or reading about recent (through 2008) managers, you would like this part. It’s quite detailed.

    If the topic of the impact managers play on an MLB game interests you, strong recommendation you try to track this book down.

  32. Reds should fire price now and replace with riggleman if for no other reason than to show players the status quo is not acceptable,not sure if there’s ever been a manager keep his job as long as him with his record,please let him go so he can go bunt some where else,reds would be immediately better

    • I think it is pretty well-documented that Riggleman, is more backward thinking than Price.

    • Yes, I received it. Great job, thanks. We’ll be using it later this week.

  33. Deconstructing think riggleman is an answer its just he’s already on staff,let him finish out year and then bring in a fresh mind like Barry larkin

  34. I think it was Tom Petty who said, “The waiting is the hardest part.” Very true words. We’ve waited and waited for the young starting pitching to develop. That development has hit the wall at 200 mph. We’ve waited for the Calvary to ride in, only to succumb upon their arrival.
    The waiting has been the hard part. Patience, but all that patience has not paid off. The waiting is now over. Time to do something else.
    OhioJim has been harping for weeks about the Reds need to go out and obtain, trade for, a starting pitcher or two. Or to get one now and one later this winter. I have been in agreement, but I am fully on board with this sentiment. We have Feldman and Adelman to start with. Castillo is there until he shows he can’t be. Go get an experienced MLB pitcher with 3-4 years of control left. They have to do something to stabilize the rotation very soon.
    Then get Cody Reed up. Get Robert Stephenson up. Go with a 6 man rotation until mid-August. Then settle on five. Give Castillo, Reed, and Stephenson a real 4-5 week go at it. If any one falter, then go with Garrett and Romano.

    • Getting decent starters is expensive and the Reds would prob get outbid but even a solid reliever like Brad Hand could help! Worse case scenario they could use Hand, Hernandez, and Cingrani to setup for Iglesias and give Lorenzen & Peralta a chance in the rotation. Desperate times require desperate measures!

      • At this point don’t make a decision born of desperation. Take a deep breath then come up with a plan to see what they’ve really got so they make more informed and effective decisions in the off season.

        I’d start by getting Reed and Stephenson into the MLB rotation and leaving them there unless they were routinely getting shellacked like Reed did last season. Romano is younger; so, I’d continue to develop him at AAA. However if he put up hugel July at AAA, I’d get him back up. Same with Garrett.

        • Don’t forget Mahle….he outpitched Castillo all year at AA.

          Overall…I guess what I was trying to say is that this season is over so why not call Peralta in the office and see what he thinks about starting. Lorenzen has already made it clear that he wants to start. They should start with Reed and Stephenson like you said but they could always go with a 6 man or put Adleman in the pen for a while or something. They need to have a plan if they want to get any better in 2018?

        • I overlooked that this is Garrett’s last option year. As soon as he shows signs of being stable again, he needs to be back up in the rotation.

    • I’d be satisfied if they waited till the off season to address bringing in starting pitching. The price is always higher in season; and, there is no need for the Reds to pay that premium given where they are.

  35. Price needs to go because he needs to go.Only problem I ever had is he doesn’t know what each player can or can’t do on his team and continues to act like he does.How much of it is his doing or is he being told to do it I don’t know..He lets his best relievers watch other guys lose the game.He believes in bunting yet his two fastest players can’t do it.He gives his worst hitter the most at bats and if he isn’s playing then he gives the next worst hitter the most at bats.He will put Wood in high leverage situations time after time and watch him fail but will not give some of his young starters a chance to fail.His lineup is really interchangeable but rarely moves anybody around.He just continues to the same things over and over with the same results.

  36. It will be interesting to see who they put in Finnegan’s spot? The Cubs come in and half their starters are hurt or sent down. Why not give Mahle a taste? Reed seems to get the Cubs every time…or they seem to get him.

  37. James Garrett is spot on,price does same thing over and over expecting different results,Einstein had a word for this,it was insanity

  38. I recognize that there are a lot of young players, particularly pitchers in the Reds system who could come up and contribute one day-many sooner rather than later. For me however, it is still hard to get excited about the future of the Reds, specifically the pitching staff, because I have absolutely no confidence that these young pitchers will be able to stay healthy. I understand injuries happen and that they are a part of the game. However, the amount of times a player in this organization-mainly a pitcher but not limited to them necessarily, has either came back from injury only to get hurt again or has taken an absurdly long time to rehab is astounding. Homer Bailey has experienced this several times. Brandon Finnegan experienced it yesterday. Anthony Desclafani has experienced multiple setbacks. Iglesias has been rendered unable to start games now. Mat Latos struggled to recover from injuries properly. Nick Travieso has been injured and reinjured.That’s just to name a few off the top of my head. I’m sure there are more. Away from the mound, we’ve seen Joey Votto take a longer than average time period to recover from his knee injury years ago. We’ve seen Devin Mesoraco repeatedly struggle to stay healthy. Again, those are just a few off the top of my head. It appears from the outside looking in that there is a systemic problem with the way this organization handles injuries and rehab and until that gets fixed, I’ll unfortunately be looking at prospects and at the future through a very anxious lens.

    • This topic drives me nuts…..Do you have any evidence that the Reds are worse at this than other teams? My guess would be the posters on the 29 other versions of RLN make similar claims. Don’t you think the MLBPA has extensive injury data and would make their displeasure public if the Reds actually had a systemic problem? One would think that a union that has fewer than 1,000 members with an average salary of 3 million per year would pay attention to things like systemic issues with injuries and rehab.

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