2017 Reds / Titanic Struggle Recap

Titanic Struggle Recap: Another big comeback for the Redlegs, but another loss

Final R H E
Cleveland Indians (24-20) 8 7 0
Cincinnati Reds (21-24) 7 11 2
W: Miller (3-0) L: Storen (1-1) S: Allen (13)
FanGraphs Win Probability | Box Score

The Good
–The Reds were down 7-3 in the bottom of the 7th, but if there’s one thing we’ve learned about these Cincinnati Reds, it’s this: they keep coming at you.

Billy Hamilton walked to lead off the inning. One out later, Joey Votto singled Hamilton over to third. Adam Duvall then ripped an RBI single, and Eugenio Suarez — pinch-hitting — followed up with a three-run homer that tied the game at 7-7.

The lead didn’t last long, but it was a fun comeback nonetheless.

–Austin Brice entered the game with the Reds down 7-3 and he pitched two perfect innings. Brice has been effective in the short time he’s been in Cincinnati.

–Votto reached base four times, 2-3 with two walks, a double, and two runs scored. Duvall was 2-5 with a double and two RBI. Hamilton reached base twice. Scooter Gennett doubled and walked.

The Bad
–Another ugly outing for Amir Garrett: five innings, seven runs allowed on seven hits and a walk. Garrett surrendered four home runs, two to our old friend Edwin Encarnacion.

–With the Reds tied at 7, Drew Storen entered the game. He proceeded to walk the leadoff hitter, and then Encarnacion reached on a fielding error by Gennett. A fielder’s choice and fly out later, Encarnacion was at third, and he scored on a wild pitch by Storen. That was the margin of victory.

It was a strange moment, and Reds manager Bryan Price certainly opened himself up to criticism. Daniel Robertson was batting — with two outs and Indians ace reliever Andrew Miller in the on-deck circle — and for some reason, Price didn’t walk Robertson. It would have loaded the bases, but Indians skipper Terry Francona would have been forced to decide between pinch-hitting for Miller — which would have been good for the Reds, as it would have taken him out of the game — or letting him hit with two outs.

Instead, Price chose to pitch to Robertson, Storen threw a wild pitch, and the Reds lost.

–Devin Mesoraco was 0-5 with two strikeouts.

–Reds had a chance to tie the game in the bottom of the eighth, but Jose Peraza was gunned down at the plate after a Zack Cozart single.

Not-So-Random Thoughts
–Ohio Cup is tied. Reds and Indians head to Cleveland next to finish out this exciting competition.

–Votto is now hitting .300/.422/.600. That’ll do, Joey. That’ll do.

Tonight’s Tweets

70 thoughts on “Titanic Struggle Recap: Another big comeback for the Redlegs, but another loss

  1. not happy the Reds lost…but the right players lost the game against the defending AL champs. Fine. Get better tomorrow. Some of these position players are really good.

  2. This team battles and doesn’t quit. I blame this loss on Price. You have to walk Robinson. Also why do you send Perazza with Votto on deck?

    • That was 100% the right decision to send Peraza. 2 outs, fast runner. No problem with that. Cleveland can walk Votto.

    • it was a great play by RF, fielded it perfectly and made great throw, better chance of scoring where that ball was hit than Joey doing something positive, plus they probably pitch around him. Peraza seemed to take a funny route and did not do much to avoid the tag-(I only saw 1 angle of relay)

  3. Am I missing something? Or is this team very close to competing? If we had any…any…semblance of starting pitching, we’d be in the hunt for a play-off spot. The offense is there and the defense has improved.

    On another note….and I love the guy…but is Joey Votto one the worst baserunners in the history of baseball ? Not only does he not hustle when on first and it looks like a double play…but he gets doubled-up incessantly. Our fundamentals have improved….slightly.

    • You are so right man. They are so close. Once the starting pitchers get better they will be contenders.

    • Said similar a few weeks ago. The hitting and team D are fine but with the gawd awful SP, it seems we’re always fighting an uphill battle. I don’t understand Price most of the time. He’s bunt happy too and I hate that.

    • I’m OK with Joey not sliding hard into 2nd, trying to break up double plays.

      • Just what he’d need is another torn meniscus or something worse. I’m fine with it too.

    • Taking a calculated risk and getting doubled up on a diving play by Carlos Santana isn’t THAT bad… Santana probably catches that ball 2 out of 10 times.

      Also, Hatcher must not have had a problem with it, either, otherwise he would have been yelling and waving at Joey to not keep coming to 3rd.

  4. It’s the 8th inning of the game, tied 7-7. Eugenio had pinch hit (for the pitcher) in the 7th inning and lined a game-tying 3-run HR over the RCF wall. Eugenio was available as a pinch hitter because Gennett had started at 3B with Eugenio getting the night off. Gennett ended the 7th inning by striking out for the 3rd out. The fact that eugenio hit the game-tying HR in the 7th or Gennett struck out in the 7th are irrelavent to the decision Price made, but that decision cost the Reds the ball game. Eugenio has been playing gold glove defense at 3B all season and finshed the 2nd half of last season with equally strong defense at 3B. Gennett is at best an average defensive 2B but is at best defensively challenged at any other position and has played a whopping total of 5 games at 3B. With the choice of replacing Suarez or Gennett, Price obviously replaced Suarez, leaving Gennett in the game to play 3B.

    Anyone want to venture a guess what happened in the 8th inning…anyone? The Clevelanders scored the winning (unearned) run after an error by…yep, you guessed it…Gennett. Way to put the team in the best position to win…NOT!

      • I don’t recall seeing Price on the field tonight. Was he playing under a pseudonym? I thought Edward Scooterhands and Storen’s air ball were the key ingredients in tonight’s losing pie.

        • Garrett, an inexperienced rookie pitcher, was in a down cycle of rookie ups and downs. The Indians lit him up and there’s another reason the Reds lost. Price may have made some bad decisions later in the game, but I thought he made a good decision when he had Garrett pitch another inning–the 5th, I think–to give him the chance to turn it around a bit, which he fortunately did.

    • There was a moment last week, or wait, maybe actually it was in the long game out in SanFran, when I found myself questioning double switch logic in general. I believe it was Duvall who had been switched out that night and every time afterward (2 or 3 times) that spot came up the game was on the line with a lesser hitter getting the AB. Tonight the offensive side turned out OK but the defense suffered.

      I think the bottom line is that I’m being more and inclined to support universal use of the DH. Or maybe they could do something really radical like allow a team one AB in each game where a pitcher pinch hitted for was allowed to remain in the game but the pinch hitter would still be done for the night. This is actually the same principle as the DH except the pitcher remaining in the game would be a designated pitcher.

      • There was also another double switch with Scooter where he tripled and scored in his at-bat was also had an error that could have cost the game. We just happened to get out of it that time.

        That said, I do like Scooter and think our bench is still a huge breath of fresh air compared to the last 4 years

        • My original thought was that when the Reds double switch a batter or two behind Votto, they are increasing the likelihood that the bat is going to be taken out of Votto’s hands because he will be pitched around since a bench player is hitting so closely behind him. Tonight it worked out well for the Reds offensively probably at least in part because both guys who subsequently batted as PH’s in the switched out spot, Suarez and Barnhart, are not typically bench players.

      • Why not just eliminate one spot in the batting order–presumably the pitcher’s? No DH, so there’s a roster spot for a real player or an extra pticher, and no pitchers batting, which I don’t mind but many seem to.

        • This is even a bit more out of the box than my designated pitcher idea so probably even less likely to ever happen; but to address the central issue, why not?

    • When Gennett made that error that same thought crossed my mind: why wasn’t Suarez out there?

      • Suarez was given the day off. It’s probably been planned for several days. Gennett is the best option available to give him a day off. Suarez would have no doubt, wanted to stay in the game. But they call it an off day for a reason. To keep guys fresh and from breaking down as the season goes on.

        If Scooter hits a 3 run game winning homer, in the 9th, what are we saying today? I don’t mind Scooter up in that situation.

    • I believe his reasoning for not keeping Eugenio in the game was that he wanted to give him a day off. I can understand the decision (not saying it’s right or wrong but you have to give players rest through out the season)

      • Yup, I still wish he was out there–the PH was in the7th inning–but I understand why he wasn’t. Other players who have the day off have ended up doing more than pinch hitting too. Technically, Gennett will field more batted balls than he muffs, just in this case it hurt, along with Storen’s wild pitch. It is what it is and hindsight is better than foresight.

  5. Francona should be fired. Why pitch to Suarez? Mesoraco has 2 more home runs than Marge Schott since 2015, but Francona was afraid to load the bases to pitch to a guy who might as well come to the plate with a wiffle ball bat or a soggy newspaper.

    Great managers are always know when to walk the pitch hitter…..like Sparkey Anderson with Bernie Carbo and LaRussa with Kirk Gibson…ok, bad examples.

    Didn’t the 2011 Red Sox have one of the most epic collapses in history? Didn’t the Tribe blow a 3-1 World Series lead? Didn’t he over use Andrew Miller to such a degree that 88 year old David Ross took him deep in game 7? My God, his record in Philadelphia was similar to Dave Miley’s and Bryan Price’s.

    Given that managers have such incredible impact I can’t believe this guy…..with his long track record of mistake after mistake…continues to receive a direct deposit.

  6. Well now, things could start to get interesting…

    .253/.329/.552 for Schebler
    .259/.306/.488 for Duvall

    After tonight’s performance going 4-5 w/ 1-2B & 1-HR…

    .307/.378/.400 for Winker

    • I don’t see Winker unseating Duvall unless Duvall falls clear through the floor or Mesoraco starts hitting like the Mesoraco of 2014 because the Reds need Duvall’s RH power to go along with Suarez’s in the middle of the order.

      Schebler’s splits this year have been stronger versus LH pitching than against RH pitching. Maybe a strange double lefty hitting platoon with Schebler against the LH pitchers and Winker against RH pitchers?? In a typical week there are 12 or 14 corner outfield starts to be had. Perhaps a three man corner outfield rotation would be a healthy situation for all of them.

      • What realistically will Hamilton’s arbitration numbers be in 2018 and 2019- won’t they skyrocket?

      • I think Schebler’s weird reverse split is just some SSS noise. He hit worse against LHP at every stop in his career before a few dozen PA this season.

        • Didn’t see your reply until after my reply refreshed the page. Guess that happens when reading when there is a bit of downtime at work.

      • I think that platoon split for Schebler is a small-sample-size skew. Schebler has looked (by the eye test) to be a much better hitter against LHP than he has in the past but his past MiLB and MLB performance against LHP was pretty bad. So bad in fact that I suggested he may need to be platooned and only play against RHP. I like the changes he’s made but I still think when all is said and done, he’s going to have superior numbers vs RHP than vs LHP over enough PA against LHP (450 or so perhaps?)

        As for WInker, I like him and have always liked him but I wouldn’t take him over either Duvall nor Schebler right now. The OBP and AVG are nice but the ISO is miserable. OBP should weigh more than SLG in OPS but the huge disparity in SLG and ISO says a lot. Plus, I don’t think Winker is as good of a defender as either of them. I can’t see an argument for him replacing either player right now. That may change at some point but right now, Winker stays in AAA if I were GM. What could change that would be a strong trade offer for Winker, Duvall, or Schebler; although I wouldn’t be actively looking to move any of them. You never know when an injury will hit.

        • Looking at the minors, with Ervin at AAA, Aquino at AA and the trio of Trammel, Friedl, and Beltre at the two class A levels, it make make sense to try and sell high on Winker

          • Jim…I respectfully disagree…Aquino has been so up and down…Ervin has been similarly….Winker just gets on base and hits. Hamilton has not demonstrated durability. Injuries always happen. I think Winker will be an important Red on the next great reds team.Hitting is hard ….and when he’s healthy….he has been consistently good.

          • Here’s my thought process. The next contending Reds team isn’t going to happen until the starting pitching gets straightened out. That isn’t going to be 2018 or probably even 2019 unless there is an injection of established talent from outside the Reds organization.

            The Reds offense is doing well enough that unless Winker can unseat Schebler or Duvall before the end of the season, his greatest value could be as a major piece in a trade next off season to bring in a frontline starting pitcher thus moving the team closer to contention.

            Looking down the pipeline, the Reds have 3 guys at class A, Friedl, Trammell and Beltre, playing outfield who project as better athletes than Winker; and, who are getting on base at a rate similar to him. Add in that with all the infielders the Reds have onboard, Senzel could end up in the outfield mix in 2-3 years also.

            Winker could well turn out to be no more than a bridge to this coming group unless he slugs in the high .400’s. This being the case why not move him to help push the team ahead and ride the horses they have now augmented by the likes of Ervin and Aquino until the wave that is likely to make the Reds a really good team arrives in 2020 or 2021.

  7. Results dont matter right now. More often than not teams will stick close to the preseason projections. We will probably lose more of these games than we win, but a lot of good signs so I am ok with it

    • I generally agree but at some points wins will start coming with greater frequency if progress is really happening. If that doesn’t happen there isn’t really progress happening. Instead there are just more nights of mismatched outstanding and offsetting poor performances.

      • The problem is the starting pitching, so progress elsewhere may not lead to many wins. But it clearly is progress, and there’s reason to hope that the rotation will improve.

        • And last year the problem was a historically bad bullpen which appears to be fixed only to have what nows appears to be on the cusp of having historically bad starting pitching. Thus my thought that the only real measure of team progress is in the won/ lost column because if all the parts are working in concert to create wins, the team isn’t progressing.

          This said, even if they don’t win a single game over the next week, they will finish May at +4 compared to the end of last May. If they continue to increase wins at the same rate over the rest of the season, that would represent 10-12 more wins for the season which would be significant improvement.

  8. The bigger concern from the events of the 8th inning, IMO, is Drew Storen not being able to handle high-leverage situations again.

    Plenty of guys can swing a bat but not play in the field (Kurt Gibson, Game 1, 1988 WS).
    It probably wasn’t the risk for Suarez to further aggravate his neck in the middle of May for a possible extra-inning game.

    The Reds exactly 50% to win at the start of the 8th. Storen walked the leadoff man. In spite of the error, they were still exactly 50% when Storen bounced a 55 footer and the go ahead run scored.

    http://www.fangraphs.com/liveplays.aspx?date=2017-05-23&team=Reds&dh=0&season=2017

    The Reds certainly had chances to score in the 8th and 9th.

    Wesley eluded to Storen’s problems in his article today. Hopefully, he gets right. When the heat and the heart of the season kick in, it is going to be all hands on deck at all positions with the runs the Reds give up.

  9. I hope this is just a bump in the development of Garrett. He has not kept the ball down in the zone since he came back up.

    • The break from pitching didn’t seem to help him any. Was a crap move to send him down and then not pitch him under the guise of “innings limits” … What a crock!

  10. Garrett will be ok. Right now he is throwing and not so much pitching. His pitches are up which to me seems like more like the yips or over throwing than anything else. He’ll be fine though he’s had enough games already to go back to and figure out what works.

  11. My question to everyone is, how does a fast runner like Peraza get thrown out at home when there was 2 outs and the ball was a “dinker” into right field? He was out by 2 steps, was not even close. His lead from second and secondary lead had to have been horrendous.

    • Great play by Cleveland, but the answer is Peraza should not have been thrown out at home.

      • That is why we have a third base coach. must have been on vacation during that play.

    • Did you watch the game, did you see how shallow they were playing? The ball bounced perfectly up to the fielder, who delivered a perfect throw. That’s baseball.

      The Red’s telecast (about as bad as it comes to showing replays) never showed much of a replay, except the throw. So I don’t know if Peraza had a good lead, or took a poor path rounding 3rd.

  12. Great comeback but when you lose you lose.Lots of blame to go around such as Amir’s performance,failing to get a guy in from 3rd with no outs in the second,Price pitching to the 8th place hitter with Miller on deck,Storen’s wild pitch,Peraza being thrown out at home(how does he not score on that I mean he is fast right) two shots in the ninth with two runners on(by the way they were probably our two slowest guys in Votto/Tucker) and does anybody think Joey would have scored on a single or Tucker could have scored on a double and Scooter’s error who should have been replaced at third by Suarez.This team is flawed on the fundamentals and Price is not a good in game manager but this team never gives up and they fight to the last out.Only once or twice this year have I got the sense they just rolled over and with the starters we have going out there,they have every right to roll over and just give up 3 or 4 times a week.The numbers show just how bad the starters really have been and yet the offense never gives up.

    • Bryan price is as good as any other manager. He doesn’t play on the field so I think better to stay the course than starting over with a new guy . Unless of course they hire Charlie Sheen as manager.

      • If every guy was the same as everyone then Dusty would have a minimum of 2 WS titles by now and the Falcons would be SB champs!

        Every current manager but Price (Dusty?) walk the guy and force Francona’s hand w/Miller at the plate. Its a no-brainer really.

  13. Although in the scheme of things it didn’t end up mattering, but why would you not pinch run for Barnhart in the 9th when he’s the winning run?

    • Too many people bench people already used and no pitcher he wanted to risk. Also since they are working with two catchers now instead of three, I’d guess if the 9th inning had ended with the game tied, Barnhart would have stayed in to catch rather than risk Meso being behind the plate in a situation that might go on indefinitely.

  14. I think a manager makes a little difference in wins and losses over a course of 162 games even though he doesn’t take the field.We certainly don’t know how each player feels or what nagging injuries they may have or how they do against certain pitchers or who is rested or who is not and the list goes on and on.All any of us should expect him to do is answer the questions if asked about why or why not he did this or that.He may have done that last night and may do that all the time.There was just so many questions from last night’s game that could have been asked.Why pitch to a guy when the pitcher is on deck?Why not put Suarez at third?Why did Peraza get thrown out at home?Why didn’t Hatcher hold him at third?Why not pinch run for Barnhart or Votto or both of them?He may have reasons and good ones for all of these questions but shouldn’t they be asked and shouldn’t he answer them.I really think he overthinks things sometimes or just does what Dusty did.

  15. The Reds would be a .500 team if just 1 of Bailey, DeSclafani, or Finnegan was healthy this season. That’s a meaningless statement, but it demonstrates that the Reds have a competitive roster. No longer does it make sense just to trade players for prospects. That’a an achievement, & a little earlier than I thought it would occur.

  16. It was either the 8th inning or 9th inning, I think 9th, the Reds were down one run and BHam was on first base. No outs. The next batter failed to move the runner over to second base in his AB. Votto comes up and singles. It should have been an RBI single for Votto to tie the game, but the batter ahead of him didn’t do his job. The next two batters got out. End of inning. End of game.
    Simple fundamentals.

  17. The earliest universities were developed under the aegis of the Latin Church by papal bull as studia generalia and perhaps from cathedral schools. It is possible, however, that the development of cathedral schools into universities was quite rare, with the University of Paris being an exception.[40] Later they were also founded by Kings (University of Naples Federico II, Charles University in Prague, Jagiellonian University in Kraków) or municipal administrations (University of Cologne, University of Erfurt). In the early medieval period, most new universities were founded from pre-existing schools, usually when these schools were deemed to have become primarily sites of higher education. Many historians state that universities and cathedral schools were a continuation of the interest in learning promoted by monasteries.[41] Christian theological learning was therefore a component in these institutions, as was the study of Church or Canon law: universities played an important role in training people for ecclesiastical offices, in helping the church pursue the clarification and defence of its teaching, and in supporting the legal rights of the church over against secular rulers.[42] At such universities, theological study was initially closely tied to the life of faith and of the church: it fed, and was fed by, practices of preaching, prayer and celebration of the Mass.

    • You seem to be educating us on non-baseball topics quite often these days… What’s up? The posts are certainly interesting and I’m not complaining, just curious.

  18. Joey Votto, for the first time this season, has the highest wRC+ on the team. Last night caused Cozart to fall to 156 while Votto rose to 159.

    • Late May and two guys who play “every day” over 150! That’s pretty impressive right there.

  19. FWIW, a reminder that tonight’s game and tomorrow night’s game start an hour earlier than usual, at 6:10PM, not 7:10PM. Probably not a bad idea for weeknight games that are before Memorial Day.

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