Titanic Struggle Recap

Mailing tickets

During a two-week stretch last April the Reds and Cubs played seven times. If you bracket off a 13-5 Cincinnati win, the Cubs slaughtered the Reds 55-7. Not a typo. Not the Ohio State-Rutgers football score. The Reds began those two weeks 5-1 and finished 9-10. We know the misery that followed. The Cubs went on to win 35 more regular season games than the Reds, as well as the 2016 World Series.

Here’s a fond memory from those days: J.J. Hoover, Caleb Cotham, Jumbo Diaz, and Ross Ohlendorf were the strength of the Cincinnati bullpen. Someone named Drew Hayes pitched in two of those early games against the Cubs.

Those seven games did more than define the Reds season. They crystalized the difference between the two organizations. Last April, I wrote about the massacre and hard lessons the Cubs inflicted on the Reds. The post made the case for the Reds organization to put more value on hitting in general, plate discipline and power over speed.

Back to this season. Joe Maddon bats Kyle Schwarber first and Kris Bryant second. They’re projected to hit 61 homers, walk 135 times and have a .358 OBP. Meanwhile, Bryan Price stubbornly pencils in Billy Hamilton and Jose Peraza at the top of the Reds lineup, two players projected for a combined 13 home runs, 62 walks and a .308 OBP. Right now it’s hard to imagine the Reds duo reaching any of those numbers.

A year ago tonight, the Reds lost 16-0 to the Chicago Cubs and were no-hit by Jake Arrieta. After the game, a friend from Chicago asked nicely if I’d send him my ticket. I did. A few weeks later, Kris Bryant went 5-for-5 against the Reds with three homers. A different friend wanted that ticket. I mailed it.

For a long while tonight it looked like the Reds were fit to push back. But one out from losing, the defending world champions punched the Reds in the gut. Two innings later they finished the job. At least it wasn’t Ohio State-Rutgers. I won’t be mailing off another ticket.

Cincinnati Reds 5  Chicago Cubs 6 || MLB || FG || Statcast

Tim Adleman did a superb job filling in for Brandon Finnegan Rookie Davis Anthony DeSclafani Homer Bailey. He pitched 6 innings, allowing 2 runs on 4 hits. Adleman walked 2 and struck out 7.

The new, fully operational bullpen appeared as though it would take care of the last three innings.  Drew Storen got into a jam in the 7th, putting runners at second and third with no outs. But he proceeded to get a strikeout and induce Kyle Schwarber and Kris Bryant to pop-up. Michael Lorenzen was an out away from finishing off the Cubs before giving up a dramatic 3-run homer to Anthony Rizzo.

Wandy Peralta continued his outstanding season, retiring the Cubs in order in the 10th, including two strikeouts. Free pizza and rejoicing ensued. Peralta has K’d 45% of the batters he’s faced.

Robert Stephenson gave up a walk to the second batter he faced in the 11th inning. A hit and a sac fly later, the Cubs had scored the winning run.

The Reds scored all 5 runs off Cubs starter Jon Lester. The key blow came from an unlikely source as Adleman blasted a 2-run double in the 4th inning after Joe Maddon had intentionally walked Tucker Barnhart. Back-to-back doubles by Eugenio Suarez and Zack Cozart had put the Reds on the board.

Adam Duvall hit his 5th homer of the season, putting the Reds ahead 4-2. In was a shot down the right-field line. “Line-to-line power,” said Jeff Brantley. Behold its dimensions:

Courtesy: Home Run Tracker

They say the great thing about baseball is you see something new and completely unexpected every night. The Reds fifth run falls into that category as it was scored by back-to-back walks to Billy Hamilton and Jose Peraza. Although in this game, Peraza swung at a 2-0 pitch that almost hit his foot and a 2-1 pitch over his eyes.

The Reds flashed leather to get Adleman through the 6th. The newly shorn Peraza and Suarez made nice plays on ground balls. Peraza ranged far to his 1B side to keep a ball in the infield and made the play at first. Here is Suarez’ play.

67 thoughts on “Mailing tickets

  1. For the life of me, I do not understand why Price did not go to Peralta with Rizzo coming up.

    • You stick with your best guys, Perralta has pitched a handful of games, Rizzo hits LHP almost as good as RHP. Lorenzen> Peralta- best decision but did not work out

  2. Keep calm, we’re still sorting, I reminded myself as Rizzo’s HR zoomed over Schebler’s head and into the stands. But why with Lorenzen 40 pitches into his night and having failed to retire both of the previous LH batters in the 9th weren’t the Reds sorting whether Wandy Peralta could get the 27th out lefty on lefty in about the highest leverage situation imaginable?

    • I am with you on this, Jim.

      (I have not seen your posts much lately. They are missed. Hope you are well).

      We are less than 3 full weeks (of 26) into the season. The “sorting” hasn’t even had a chance to get fully started.

      One of my favorite Bill James’ expressions, gleaned from one of his early Baseball Abstracts, given to me as a kid:

      “You don’t even know what you have as a team unless at least 40 games into the season.”

      • I’m as well as a CBJ fan can be after the last two weeks 😉 and now this tonight just when I’m getting back to the Reds full time! Not to mention I’ve also been getting the ducks all in a row to drop cable and switch to a streaming service. At least that worked well in its premiere tonight.

    • It was really frustrating and certainly lends itself to second guessing, but we should keep in mind how many of us want Lorenzen to be a starter. 40 pitches shouldn’t be an issue, theoretically, for a starter. He’s been mostly great this season and Iglesias would have been unavailable, so I can understand the decision, though in hindsight it didn’t work out. Rizzo hits homers and could have against anyone. It’s disappointing particularly because the Reds seem to be better than expected. But they still are. These last 3 losses have been close, hard-fought games against two very good teams. Winning is more fun–makes the coffee taste better the next morning, for one thing–but there’s a lot to like about these Reds.

  3. While we should have won and didn’t we only got 1 hit the last 5 innings against their pen.We didn’t make the pitches late and they did so we lose.This is 3 or 4 games on the home stand that we really just gave away but we are a young team and hopefully we get better.I said it last year and I will say it again this year is that I am not so much worried about our pitching as I am our hitting.We have young arms that continue to step up regardless of how many guys go down but our hitting is so inconsistent.Untill we become better at the plate in working the count and swinging at strikes we will struggle.Is this game alone we did do just what I said in the middle innings and we scored.The first two or three innings and the last 5 were like we couldn’t wait to get back to the dugout.

  4. The game tonight was in Great American Ball Park, right? I see so many blue jerseys in the stands watching the replays on mlb.com it is hard to tell.

    • It’s been like that for several years when the Cubs are in town. You’re just noticing?

  5. Call me fair weather but I’m 29 years old and have followed this team since 1995. They have had four four good seasons. Tonight’s game did it for me. I’m finished with this organization Screw the rebuild. It’s not working. The Reds have no clue on how to produce a winner.

    • ….Seriously? After everything that has happened, losing by 1 run to the defending champions is what did it for you?

    • You’ve been a Reds fan since the age of seven and you’re finished at 29? Come on, a season does not come down to one game. Better days are coming. This from a life-long fan who recently turned 80.

    • I’m with Geoff here. I was at the game. Getting embarrassed in front of a ton of Cubs fans by the same Reds we’ve known since I was old enough to remember (i was 1 when they won the 90 series). I just can’t come up with any reasons to follow them. I won’t be at any more games this year.

      • Reds fans like MP45 and Geoff are not real fans. Cubs fans waited 100 years for a winner. That’s real loyalty.

  6. Another bit of sorting I would have liked to have seen since the game got that far was Ervin instead of Alcantara used in the double switch at the start of the 10th inning.

    • Expecting Price to be logical in that situation will drive you insane, my friend.

  7. I hate to say that among the many frustrations I am holding in after a loss that never should have ever been a loss ever, I am losing my patience with Stephenson. In 6.2ip he has 8 walks. Walks kill. It’s why this team should learn how to do it instead of hacking at pitches that even a toddler wouldn’t swing at (cough Peraza cough). This team has a culture of a loser. Until Price is gone it’ll always be that way. Soldiers and Followers are the reflection of their leader which is why this team will never rise above mediocrity with him at the helm. Great coach for the pitchers. Barnacle of a manager.

      • I haven’t necessarily given up on Stephenson or the club, but I just don’t understand how someone with so much talent and plus pitches is having this much trouble with command with a “guru” like Price. You’re up 0-2 and walk a guy? Whut…? I hope Cody goes out and throws a gem tomorrow. I’m not giving up on the club, but the only thing I can come back to is the culture cultivated within this team. It’s gotta change and the best/only real way to get about that is the manager.

    • They just fell out of first place. They’ve been winning more than losing. What you ascribe to team culture, I would ascribe to team youth and inexperience.

  8. I do agree with Mancuso. Price needs to drop Peraza and Hamilton in the line-up. Billy just can’t hit and Peraza swings at any pitch. Some combination of Suarez, Votto, Duvall, and Cozart at the top, Please!!!!

  9. Two previous LH hitters in the 9th had gotten hits off of 1-2 counts. Lorenzen had faced Rizzo in the 8th and walked him. His pitch count was at 40. Lot’s of good indicators to pull him 1 out short of 2 full innings for a lefty on lefty match up. Or hey, 1B was open. Roll the dice more favorably by walking Rizzo and taking his chance with the RH hitting Russell.

    • Relief pitchers are also typically pitching harder than a starter; 40 pitches in two innings is gassing a guy, especially in high leverage. There were other options that made better sense in that moment that Price didn’t take. That’s what we’re questioning. We’re fans that’s what we do.

  10. I understand that this is a rebuilding season and a “season of sorting”. I also understand that win or lose, this is only one game. However, it has to be one of the more frustrating games I have attended.

    I really don’t have a problem with Lorenzen pitching to Rizzo, even with Lorenzen’s prior lack of effectiveness tonight. Price doesn’t have a designated closer, but in reality, the chain of command appears to be Iglesias —> Lorenzen —> Storen/Cingrani. Given that Iglesias was unavailable after pitching two innings last night, Cingrani is on the DL, and Storen was used in the seventh, that left Lorenzen. Had Peralta come in and given up the homer to Rizzo, we’d be crucifying Price for taking Lorenzen out. A lose/lose situation for Price.

    What really irritated me was Alcantara being used to lead off the top of the eleventh inning, rather than Ervin or Gennett. What is the point of that? A player with one hit this season (a single at that)…compared to Gennett, who has far more experience. I really want to know how much longer Williams plans to continue wasting a roster spot with Alcantara when there are other players in Louisville far more deserving (Irribarren, for one). How can the Reds expect Alcantara to improve his hitting or fielding skills with one start per week (if that)?

  11. I know it is extremely early in the 2017 season, but from what we’ve seen so far (and from what we know from prior seasons), what are the odds that Hamilton, Peraza, and Schebler are everyday players on the next contending Reds team? Hamilton appeared to finally be heading in the right direction in 2016, but has yet to replicate that this season. Peraza is not taking walks. Schebler has potential, but has yet to put it together.

    Like I wrote before, it is too early for the Reds to make a permanent decision about any of the above players. After all, even Votto is still struggling. I am just wondering what others are thinking at this point in April.

    • I think Hamilton will be an everyday player, at least for a few more years. His defense is so exceptional that his bat can be anemic and he’s still a benefit to the team. I’m ok with him in CF every day until that isn’t the case. What I’m not ok with is him leading off and getting more PA than any other Reds’ hitter.

  12. what are the odds that Hamilton, Peraza, and Schebler are everyday players on the next contending Reds team?

    I would say unless they get traded, pretty good.

  13. This has become a predictable pattern:
    1) Price makes decisions that don’t maximize the team’s chances of winning statistically or logically.
    2) The team loses.
    3) People criticize Price’s dumb decisions.
    4) Other people claim the complainers would be complaining about Price after every loss no matter what he did.

    I don’t see much evidence to support that. When Price makes good moves that backfire, I don’t see many people complaining about them. When he lets Votto hit for himself in the bottom of the 9th with two outs and the Reds down by a run, I don’t see people asking why he didn’t let Turner pinch hit even if Votto hits a weak grounder to short and the Reds lose. When he insists on having one of the team’s weakest hitters bat ahead of Votto and Duvall and the weak hitter ends up making the final out of a one-run game with a Votto on deck, people will complain. There actually is an underlying logic to the complaints more often than not. Price brings it on himself by repeatedly making choices that don’t maximize the chances of winning.

    • With all due respect, your premise isn’t convincing. Probably because you’re using a false argument to support it. Turner hitting for Votto? That’s not really a decision, let alone something that needs to be analyzed. As Votto would say, “C’mon now.”

      I see plenty of criticism made when Price’s decisions work out but still weren’t sound tactically. It’s the nature of being a fan.

      • With all due respect, MrRed, I think you’re missing my point. My point is that most of Price’s decisions don’t get criticized whether they work out or not and whether the Reds lose or not, because most of his decisions are perfectly reasonable. I used the most obvious example I could think of. I’m sorry if it doesn’t convince you, but it’s still true. If you prefer other examples of reasonable decisions nobody criticized even though they didn’t work out, I’m sure you can think of some. The vast majority of criticism comes from instances when he’s made illogical decisions that haven’t worked out. And there are always responses along the lines of “when the Reds lose you guys criticize him no matter what he does,” which just isn’t true.

    • You could make the case, logically, that leaving Lorenzen in to pitch to Rizzo was a good move that backfired. Lorenzen has been a very strong pitcher this year and, as a pitcher who many of us believe should start, should be able to pitch to lefty hitters. I agree with Jveith that, had Peralta given up the homer, Price would have been blasted for bringing him in. The criticism of his lineup management is hard for me to dispute.

      • Who would have “blasted” Price for removing a pitcher who’d thrown 40 pitches and allowed hits to two lefties, and replaced him with a fresh lefty who’s been very good at getting people out, to face a very good lefty with the game on the line? I simply don’t see it happening. There would be people wondering if it was the right decision, but I think almost everyone would concede there’s an underlying statistical logic to it. There seems to be this idea that some people criticize him after a loss no matter WHAT he does, and I simply don’t see it. If there’s someone here who does that, please give me the name so I can watch for it.

        • J, I think what he’s getting at is that there wasn’t clearly a right or wrong way to go on the decision last night to leave Lorenzen in to face Rizzo. On the one hand, Lorenzen isn’t just some BP guy. He’s arguably one of the best pitchers on the entire staff. 40 pitches is nothing for him. And the “hit” he gave up to Montero should have been converted into an out but Votto failed to properly get in front of that grounder. Right before Rizzo came up, Lorenzen absolutely owned the Cubs best hitter.

          But on the other hand, I can see the case being made that Peralta would have been a good match up against Rizzo, if only because of the lefty on lefty match up. But, if Peralta were used and he failed, I think you would have seen people criticize Price.

          To your other point, I think it is fair to say that Price does get criticized even when it’s not warranted. The case in point is the example above. Look at the round of comments on this thread alone and you’ll find plenty of critics. And RLN is probably the most level-headed venue. You wouldn’t want to read comments from MLB.com or other sites. Fans tend to react based on emotion rather than logic.

          • My point is that the people criticizing Price for leaving Lorenzen in would probably NOT have criticized him if he’d brought in Peralta and Peralta had given up a HR. It’s easy to say they would have, but I see very few examples of people criticizing Price no matter what he does. I see people criticizing him when questionable or bad decisions don’t work out. I don’t see people criticizing him when he does things that seem to make perfect sense. Although I haven’t said anything about it, I, for one, didn’t agree with the decision to leave Lorenzen in. He didn’t look sharp, and I thought Peralta was the sensible option. So the fact that people are criticizing that decision doesn’t seem unreasonable to me, and I seriously doubt these critics would have criticized him if Peralta had given up the HR. I just don’t see too many people criticizing him for doing what seems to be the most sensible thing. I see people criticizing him when he does something we wouldn’t do and it backfires. What’s wrong with that?

          • My point is that leaving Lorenzen in wasn’t really a bad or questionable decision. Even if you don’t agree with it, you should be able to see the logic in the other side.

            So what you have is a difference of perspective, which is fine. I just don’t get the angst over the actual decision that some folks seem to be expressing. It’s ok to be disappointed with the outcome but in this example, it doesn’t make sense for fans to upset with the decision he made.

          • What I’m saying is that people have a right to criticize Price for making what they feel is a bad decision without being told “you’d complain no matter what he did if the Reds lost.” I simply don’t see that happening. People complain when Price does something they wouldn’t do and it backfires. They don’t complain when he does the same thing they’d do and it backfires. I’m not arguing about whether people are right or wrong to criticize this particular move, I’m arguing with the assertion that these very same people would complain if Price had brought in Peralta and he gave up a HR. I believe that’s untrue and unfair. Perhaps a few OTHER people would complain about it (though frankly I think almost everyone would have seen nothing wrong with bringing in Peralta to face Rizzo in that situation), but it wouldn’t be the SAME people who complained about leaving Lorenzen in. I’m just tired of seeing every valid or potentially valid criticism of Price dismissed as “people complain when the Reds lose no matter what the manager does.” That’s just not fair to the people making valid criticisms. Price does some very stupid things that people rightly criticize. He also makes a lot of questionable moves that SOME people criticize, and I often agree with those criticisms. But when he does objectively smart things that happen to backfire and cost the Reds a game, almost nobody criticizes him for doing those things. When he brings his best relief pitcher in to face the heart of the lineup in the 9th inning with a 1-run lead, nobody complains if the guy gives up a home run because we’d all have done the same thing. If he brings in his third best relief pitcher to face the heart of the lineup in the 8th inning (because his best relief pitcher is being saved for the 9th) and the guy gives up 3 runs, people will criticize him for not using his best pitcher in the 8th. The criticism is pretty predictable that way.

  14. It doesn’t matter how you put it, this game was lost by the manager, not the players. The very same happened many times last season. Until Price is gone Reds won’t be contenders again, regardless of how good starting rotation, bullpen and/or offensive/defensive may be. There were so many wrong decisions in this game, starting with line-up and ending up with pinch hitter selection in the 10th. Anyhow, I hope there’ll be a new manager in 2018 and allow this season to consolidate the starting rotation for years to come. Go Reds!

    • Price is not the problem. Every baseball expert views the Reds as one of worst 2 or 3 teams in baseball. The Reds problem is a lack of enough talent to consistently win. Blaming the manager is foolish.

  15. … Walks will haunt.

    I have no patience for relievers who walk a batter in their only inning of work. Very Frustrating.

  16. Why not Peralta to face Rizzo? Hello? Lorenzen was at 40 pitches by then I think. Time move Peraza down and Cozart up in the lineup. Time to platoon Schebler. See, I can be the Manager for a day and have all the answers.

    • Since when is 40 pitches a lot? Not even in Little League is that a lot of pitches.

      • I agree, but it does represent 46% of the average Reds starter pitch count this season.

          • Not if he can’t throw more than 40 pitches and pitch to lefties (neither of which do I believe to be true).

  17. Wow! Welcome to Redleg (indig)Nation this morning!

    It was a tough loss, no doubt. But the decision to let Lorenzen face Rizzo wasn’t egregious. Yes, a legitimate argument can be made that Peralta (a lefty) would have been a better matchup against Rizzo. But Lorenzen isn’t some scrub pitcher. He can and does get righties and lefties out. And throwing 40 pitches for Lorenzen isn’t the same as it would be for other relievers and specialists. It was a bad break. Fastball that tailed back in and Rizzo didn’t miss. If he hits his spot, Rizzo’s bat is shattered and we have a ground out to end the ball game. It happens. There’s no guaranty that Peralta would have been successful there either. Let’s not kid ourselves. Rizzo is darn good hitter.

    My observation from that fatal inning was that Votto should have fielded that grounder by Montero. If he does, we’re not having this discussion this morning and we’re celebrating what should have been a tidy victory and another day in first place.

    Now, if you are looking for decisions to criticize, there are other examples that will have you standing on firmer ground. Start with: (1) Continuing to run Hamilton and Peraza in the 1 and 2 spots and (2) Letting Alcantara bat with much better options sitting on the bench.

    • Agree with most of your points…Votto should have had that grounder. I’d like to see Peraza bat 9th. He reminds me a little of Cozart when he batted 2nd. Swings at anything and everything.

    • An option I haven’t seen anyone bring up that I may have done is IBB Rizzo and work to Russell. 1B was open if I recall. The argument against that would be that it would have brought the go-ahead run to the plate but I don’t think I would have pitched to Rizzo there. This is a game that I was just sort of following on Gamecast though so I’m not 100% I had the situation correct.

  18. The Reds are a rebuilding team who happened to get off to a strong start. They are still sorting, testing, determining and figuring it out.

    Price let his best reliever pitch in an extremely high leverage situation and it blew up. It was a test that failed. When you’re building, every game is an opportunity to learn and sort. Until you’re ready to compete, ( which the Reds aren’t) every game is an exhibition. Learning what works- doesn’t work is more important than winning right now.

    The Cubs were very lucky in the draft, have unlimited resources and are run by brilliant baseball and business people….and it still took 3 years of complete crap to rebuild. The Reds are 1.5 years in and it’s not over. From July 2015-July 2016 they lost 108 of 162. Since then, they’re .500. The hard part is over, but the easy part isn’t here yet.

    • How long does it take to learn and sort that Alcantara should be the very last player to bat if Williams has him on the roster?

      • Most decisions aren’t made in a vaccum. Decision B is often impacted and driven by Decsion A. There are any number of things we don’t know about that may drive any given decision. We don’t know what Price wants to do vs what he is directed to do. We don’t know what Williams wants to see from Player A on a given night.

        Any person with an internet account can second guess. I may think that’s silly and intellectually vacant but it’s a free society.

        • That’s a good counterpoint. But any person with an internet account isn’t necessarily wrong to second guess the decision last night to bat Alcantara. Though there may have been other objectives at play, it’s also true that the decision to bat him there gained the Reds little in the way of knowledge and represented an opportunity cost to test Ervin.

          It’s not make or break stuff at issue here, but as is often the case in any enterprise, it’s the little things at the margins that have a cumulative effect on the outcome. In this case, I’m looking for the Reds to be more liberal in their usage of their roster to see what they have in some of these players.

      • Ha! That’s a fair point. And how much more time do we need to sort the lineup until the decision is finally made to move Hamilton and/or Peraza down in the order? I’m hoping that team management will take the low hanging fruit because there will be plenty of other, more difficult decisions to make.

  19. Billy Hamilton did not walk. He took strike 3 down the middle. Fox pitch tracker showed it wasn’t even a borderline strike but well in the zone. He froze up and got lucky. He will get credit for a walk but 99/100x any umpire rings him up.

    Peraza and Hamilton are 4th and 5th on the team in runs scored with Cozart about to push them to 5th and 6th. That’s almost impossible for 2 players batting 1/2 every game.

  20. Chad and others have made a fine and fair point about wins being a terrible way to measure a pitchers performance. I tend to agree. Let us take that same wisdom to bed when it comes to casting judgment on the manager’s decisions as well. One game is one game. We won’t know what kind of season and how well of job Price has done until the season is over. Reds make the playoffs he is a legend. Reds lose 100 games he is gone.
    A single win or a single loss is just that. A very small sample size as they say around redlegnation.
    Let me put this into perspective. Steve Carlton’s 1972 season. At one point he lost 5 games in a row… I can imagine if social media was rampant back then what would have been said… He went on to win 27 games of the teams 59. Now one win or loss doesn’t mean diddle doo but put together 27 in a season and you wouldn’t dare call the guy “lucky”.
    Sometimes you make your own luck or unluck if you will. Maybe hitters like Rizzo are just pretty good and deserve the credit instead of someone else being discredited.
    I would love to see more patience from Reds fans, after all, this is supposed to be a season where we are figuring things out. I think we figured out a thing or two last night. Let’s hope the Reds can build upon it.

  21. Am tired of all the complaining. The reds are not good but improving. I am enjoying watching them grow. Last night was a tough loss but last year they were non competitive with the Cubs,

  22. The rebuilding Reds took the world champions to extra innings and got beat by one of their best homering off one of our best. Things might have ended differently with different decisions by Price, but they are better than we are. Beats 0-16!

    Price deserves criticism for batting Hamilton-Perazza 1-2 and ph-ing Alcantara. Adleman deserves to stick with the team as long reliever, spot starter. It’s time for BobSteve to be in the rotation to make it or break it as a starter. Let the kids play and sort it out.

  23. Random thoughts: 1) “The post made the case for the Reds organization to put more value on hitting in general, plate discipline and power over speed.” You should be worried because I agree with you 100%. 2) Why do the Reds continually bring up players still considered prospects only to have them firmly attached to the bench? Something to be said for consistency. 3) Except for a few seasons in the early 2010’s, it seems the Reds have been rebuilding since the early 1990’s. To echo, those who feel frustrated; welcome to the club.

  24. The Cubs were rebuilding since 1907. Have some patience. The Reds were a playoff team for several years just a few years ago. Did you forget?

    • You’re right. Patience is a virtue. However, over a century of patience is biblical.

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