Titanic Sweep Recap

Reds recap is hit batters haunt

The Reds split the short series with the first-place Texas Rangers. They finished a tough home stand at 6-4. All three teams they faced are postseason contenders. Texas has the best record in the AL.

The Reds are off tomorrow. They head west on a road trip to play six games against teams – Arizona and LA Angels – with worse records than they have. They miss Zack Greinke in Arizona.

Cincinnati 5  Texas 6 |  FanGraphs  | Waylon and Willie

Tim Adleman gave up four earned runs in five innings. He struck out one and didn’t walk anyone. He gave up three home runs including one to pitcher (AL pitcher) Yu Darvish, the first of his career. Adleman is a nice story. But he’s 28, a career minor league/independent league pitcher. Time to stop using up scarce starting opportunities on guys who aren’t possibly in the Reds future.

It was a strange night for the offense. The Reds got five runs against Rangers’ ace Yu Darvish. That’s the most any team has scored off Darvish this year. But the run scoring was due mostly to Darvish’s wildness, not the Reds firepower. For example, the Reds scored two runs in the 2nd inning on no hits. Darvish walked six Reds, which is more walks than he had given up in his last six starts combined. Darvish had five Ks.

Offensive highlights were limited. Adam Duvall walked twice, so did Eugenio Suarez. Scott Schebler had a hit and a walk.

Michael Lorenzen pitched a clean 6th inning. He probably would have pitched more but he was pinch-hit for with the score tied. Blake Wood pitched a shutout 7th, giving up a hit. But in the 8th inning with one out, Wood hit Ian Desmond on a 1-2 count. Desmond easily stole second on Ramon Cabrera and scored on a double by Adrian Beltre. That proved to be the game winner. (FWIW, Beltre also made a terrific defensive play at 3B to end the game and prevent potential Joey Votto dramatics. Beltre is a great one.)

Adam Duvall made a great defensive play in the 7th inning chasing down a ball over his head and making a leaping catch. Billy Hamilton made another sliding catch in right-center.

Jay Bruce doubled for the Mets tonight. He left the game with an apparent injury. Turns out it was just a calf cramp.

44 thoughts on “Reds recap is hit batters haunt

  1. I’m fighting an urge to say something snarky about taking Lorenzen down for a pinch hitter when the PH is DeJesus Jr. But IDJ did hit a sac fly which tied the game….

    Unusual night for Duvall, 0/1 officially but a .750 OBP with a run scored. Maybe playing around Votto is contagious. If these “youngsters” this year are soaking up the lessons from watching Joey, what’s the excuse for all those who’ve come before?

  2. Steve, you are confusing me. I thought that walks were an attribute of the batter and not the pitcher and yet you are contributing the walking as “wildness” on Texas pitching. This is my very case about needing to modify the OBP when the walks are clearly an “error” on the pitcher. If a batter isn’t given credit to an “error” by a fielder then they shouldn’t be given credit when that error is at the hands of the pitcher either.

    • Are you really saying someone like Joey Votto does not possess a skill set other than hitting for average? Do you really believe that pitchers just happen to make a lot of errors when they pitch to him?

    • Dan, I get what you are saying but it seems that it would be tough to do such a sweeping change to the way baseball has been played for so many years. Baseball fans love their traditions!

      • I guess that old school way of thinking a batter should not get penalized for making the pitcher throw strikes is hard to let go for some. Hopefully more will come to the modern way of realizing that a batter who fouls off enough tough pitches and not swinging at 4 uninhabitable ones is just as random as the SS who boots a ball.

    • Batting outcomes – whether they are walks or hits – are influenced by both the pitcher and the batter. You don’t think that hits are “errors” by the pitcher as well as the product of the skill set to hit? There’s a famous saying that home runs aren’t hit they’re pitched. Tim Adleman made a mistake to Yu Darvish tonight. Not on a walk, but on a home run. Hitting is a skill. It succeeds sometimes and other times it doesn’t. Sometimes it’s aided by mistakes from the pitcher. Same for walks. Walking is a skill. It succeeds sometime and other time it doesn’t. Sometimes it is aided by mistakes from the pitcher.

      It’s obvious from looking at player records that walking, like hitting, is a skill that varies from player to player and is repeatable within a range from year to year.

      My sense is you have an agenda that is broader than feigning confusion over this. Look, if you don’t want to accept modern thinking about the value of drawing walks, it’s a free country.

      • Steve,

        You hit the nail right on the head with Dan. His agenda is to criticize Votto, and he’s trying to find validation to say that Votto taking walks is not his own skill, but an error by the pitcher. This is a very common theme among his posts on this website.

        • With over 2000 walks in his career and having led the league in walks 8 times, did pitchers just happen to make a lot of errors when pitching to Ted Williams? I’m guessing he had a lot to do with those walk totals.

    • Dan: There are walks, and then there are walks. When a pitcher is wild and missing the strike zone completely, any batter could walk , obviously. But when a pitcher is close to the zone, trying, perhaps, to avoid grooving anything for a dangerous hitter, working a walk requires a good eye and self-control.

      • Your arguments make little sense to those with the thinking that a batter should purposely swing at pitches out of the strike zone with the chance of padding his RBI stats in lieu of his obp and BA and most likely his ops

  3. I know we are supposed to be concerned about the process and not the outcome this year; but, darn, it is hard to swallow a one run loss when there was an unearned run resulting from yet another infield fielding fiasco, a HR by the opposing pitcher from the DH league, and the ultimately deciding run reached base on a HBP on a 1-2 count.

    • errors happen, and they are irritating but Adleman gave up too many homers. Not sure Wood or Adleman will be around next season. Not clear why Adleman is starting when Sampson made more sense and was on the roster and is several years younger. I imagine there are others at AAA that most likely will get their shot over either next year, but I would think Sampson has a little more upside than Adleman

    • O-Jim, I’m with you on that. They said on TV last night that the HR to Darvish was the 5th HR Reds pitching has allowed to an opposing team’s pitcher this year. Very sad. With Price using Iglesias and Lorenzen in the bullpen, the Reds just don’t have a real #5 starter. Sampson isn’t the answer either. Neither Reed nor Stephenson stepped up to claim the spot. Garrett might get a shot in a couple of weeks.
      I agree with you up above too about pinch-hitting for Lorenzen. Not necessary. That is the beauty of having Lorenzen in the spot he is in now. He can go 2-3 innings late in relief without having to use a pinch-hitter for him.
      I have been thinking that here in the second half, with a healthy cast, that Price is now managing more for wins than for development. However, when they expand the roster in September, we will probably see if that is true or not with how the playing time will be divvied up.

        • Stephenson had good results but pitched poorly. The sample size was small but I wasn’t aware how much he has been sketchy at AAA this year. I had hopes that 17 was going to be the year but what I have read recently it is looking like18 at the earliest. I had hopes that out of Cingrani (1 trick pony) Iggy (prone to injuries) or Lorenzen (a little of both) one of them would be a starter but that looks like that ship has sailed. I do think that Iggy and Lorenzen and to a lesser extent Cingrani make our pen much better. That does however leave us a starter short and that is if Straily continuous pitching as well as he has.

  4. The HR Adleman gave up to Ian Desmond was a joke. Only in GABP does that line drive go out. A double at best anywhere else.

  5. Just my take on it, but with a lot of the reds’ young arms facing innings limits this year, throwing adleman out for a start or two is not the worst idea ever.

  6. 3-0 Hrs to Texas and 7-0 Dodgers the other day! I understand the shift to pitching/defense but we are going to get outhomered in GABP by a tremendous margin! Joey is getting a little older and Jay is gone. We have some good hitters coming up but not alot of power. Of course they can offset that with better pitching and more groundballs but that’s easier said then done!

    • Duvall is no longer a secret; he is being pitched to very carefully. Good news, he is is learning to take the walks;and still, he is on a 25-30HR a year pace since the ASB despite missing the better part of a week with the foot issue.

      Suarez has been getting hits and taking walks and will finish with between 20-25 HR.

      They probably need one more guy they can count on for at least 20HR a year but who also gives them a decent OBP in the process..

      • How about two? Winker and Senzel both look like candidates for such a contribution in a couple years and Okey may also be making such an impact in combination with Barnhart. That could be 3 more positions with 20+ HR and good plate discipline. That could be 5-6 positions with power and plate discipline in the starting lineup to combine with speed and on-base skills from the remaining positions.

        That’s the plan, right?

        • I don’t think Winker is viewed as a guy who will hit a lot of HR. He might be good for somewhere in the range of 15-20, but 20+ is probably a bridge too far for him. But still, he’s only 22, so the power could still potentially come.

        • Cossack, What do you think about, Peraza? He seems rangy and has a whippiness to his swing, If he gains some upper body strength and learns to drive through with his legs, he might end up having some notable power.

        • If Peraza adds power, I’d view it simply as a bonus, at least HR power. Peraza’s game will be predicated on speed and defense. His offensive contribution must come from getting on base rather than hitting HR. I can see Peraza’s swing and plate approach generating extra base hits in the form of 2B & 3B, but not much in the way of HR. I also don’t see Peraza obtaining a BB% above league average with his plate approach, but that’s not necessaily a bad thing since his plate approach will also generate an above average BAbip. It’s all about hitting line drives with the development of a little more plate discipline.

          Quite frankly, I can envision Peraza and Hamilton providing a rather formidable #9/#1 hitting combination with the lineup stacked beginning with the #2 hole. Right now, get Hamilton and Peraza all the PA’s as possible, to try and get the kinks worked out this season and early next season.

        • I’m not counting on this but if Mesoraco can return to pre-injury form he would also add another power bat.

  7. Good point that Adelman shouldn’t get any more starts. I’m guessing service time has something to do with it. But at some point, you would like to see what Garrett, Stephenson, and maybe Lorenzen can do as starters in the big leagues. Get a preview before a 2017 season that could be interesting.

    • There are also innings issues for the top prospects. With a start left at AAA, Stephenson and Garrett both sit in the mid 130’s. That’s as many as RS went last year and about 10 fewer than Garrett.

      Cody Reed is at about 120 overall versus 145 last season; so, he would seem to have more in him if they want to send him back out at the MLB level.

      Stepping down a level, Sampson is at ~86 against 135 last year, if they want to go there. However they appear to have left him in the pen this time since he got sent back to AAA. Rookie Davis is at 115 versus 130 and to boot has been getting kicked around pretty good since coming to AAA.

      With Finnegan’s spot as well as Reed’s former spot and possibly even Straily’s spot (at 151 innings, the most he’s pitched since 2013; had ~140 last year) to fill, it looks like we could be in for a heavy serving of Adelman and Alfredo Simon in September.

  8. Adelman is just a fill in.He will give you just what he gives you and that is 4 or 5 innings and 4 or 5 runs.Not part of the future but I was confused that Sampson didn’t get more of a chance to start.He has got way better stuff.

  9. I was pleased with the Reds performance yesterday. As OhioJimW pointed out, this season is about the process and not necessarily the results. Adleman and Wood are not part of the solution, just placeholders. Lorenzen, Duvall, Schebler, Suarez and Peraza, along with Hamilton and Votto, may be part of the solution and those results matter most, especially against a quality pitcher like Darvish.

    The defense by Hamilton (as expected) and Duvall (he continues to surprise) are big positives. That defense means less runs required by the offense to pull out a victory. Duvall’s continued adjustment to being pitched around was promising. We’re missing the rest of the supporting cast right now to make Duvall’s offensive contribution last night fully effective, as OhioJimW pointed out, 0-1 with 1-HBP & 2-BB was a solid performance and Duvall worked all 3 of those plate appearances for positive results.

    Schebler => 1-3 w/ 1-BB was a solid performance.
    Suarez => 0-2 w/ 2-BB was a solid performance.

    The Rangers are just having a magical season as evidenced by their record in 1-run games and their +1 run differential for the season producing the best record in the AL.

    Tony Renda and Ivan De Jesus both had positive PA as pinch hitters last night. They both may have a utility role in the future, so this season is the time to provide them with opportunities. With that said, pulling Lorenzen for a pinch hitter seemed like a lost opportunity last night. Lorenzen can hit. Why not nurture and encourage such a contribution by utlizing Lorenzen as a hitter when the opportunity exists, especially when it keeps him in the game rather than pulling him for a pinch hitter?

    • Lorenzen is rolling thru innings with low pitch counts and he has the potential to be one of the top hitting pitchers in the league. He needs to start or atleast get that chance. He’s young and probably the fittest guy on the team so I’m not sure what health concerns they have if they stretched him out. I’m thinking that was only for this year but I could be wrong.

      • As everyone here likely knows, I’m all aboard the Lorenzen needs a chance to start train and spilled a bit of digital ink last week in favor of it. Unfortunately, I just don’t see the Reds letting it happen unless injuries occur next year in Spring Training to other starting candidates.

        Once a guy has some success in a role, they tend to keep him there. If the Reds had Adam Wainwright, he might still be a closer/reliever.

        • That has absolutely been the case since WJ took the reigns. The hope (and that hope, what little there was, seems to be diminishing) is that Williams will represent a significant change in operations from the WJ regime. We shall see…

  10. As SHCHI said above some players are improving their OBP which is critical going into next year and beyond.If we could field a lineup of players 320 and above we will score tons of runs next year.With another piece or two added to the lineup along with the expected pitching improvement we could stir things up a little in the playoff picture.I always look at the offense because I believe our pitching will sort itself out next year and beyond.Right now and maybe for the rest of the year we will see guys on the mound that we know won’t be part of the future.Guys like Diaz,Ohly,Wood,Adelman,Smith or even Cingrani probably won’t be here next year.The Reds have found out a lot about their pitchers this year and I just hope the last month of the season we can find out more about the position players.

  11. I would like to see Lorenzen stretch out a bit in September. Not like we are in the wildcard race. Know it is totally out of the box but if you are not going to start Stephenson or Sampson… and are hellbent on using Adelman/// perhaps tag team Adelman and Lorenzen to multiple innings every fifth day. Going to lose a weapon we are starting to enjoy in the bullpen but long term is what we are supposed to be looking at.
    Truly fear the coming storm of Alfredo Simon.

    • I love this idea. Not sure why they can’t piggy back Lorenzen and Sampson together or Finnegan and Lorenzen as Finnegan nears his innings limit. Lorenzen has pitched as many as three innings in relief already. He can probably go 4 or 5 if he is efficient. Maybe 60-70 pitches. Then, bring in Sampson or Adelman or Finnegan for 2 or 3 innings.

      After a few times of doing that, Lorenzen can probably make a few full starts. How does this not make sense?

      • I think the MLBPA and the player’s agents would throw a fit. If you assign someone ” starters innings” but bring them in from the bullpen you’re potentially harming them if they were to ever go to salary arbitration.

  12. My thinking exactly. So many possibilities with the starters pushing their limits. You can have a 16 pitcher staff come September anyway. Lorenzen, Finnegan, Strally, Adelman, Stephenson, Sampson and Reed all could be part of it because they all have limits and/ior iussues.
    Disco and Bailey stay on their turns.
    That would make for an interesting September for those of us chomping at the bit for next year already.

  13. “You can have a 16 pitcher staff come September anyway.”

    That would be the possibility for a MLB team with reasonable management in place. For the Reds, a 29 pitcher staff could become a reality with their penchant for playing short-handed and over-staffing the pitching staff…

    • Hope he first throws a gem … And then throws the fish eye to the rodeo clown that the Reds have put in charge in louisville

      • Would it not look like Deshields pushed the right button if Stephenson comes out and pitches a jewel? I have never been much of embarrassing someone by calling them out in public but the lackluster year Stephenson has put up maybe it was the answer. I know with Lorenzen being on an innings count they wouldn’t think about fall ball I wouldn’t mind seeing him get 3 or 4 starts.

  14. No. Only a guy off enough to do what Deshields did would think he was a positive force.
    You don’t do it anymore. It is not what great coaches do. Maybe 30 years ago but not anymore.

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