Final R H E
Chicago Cubs (51-26) 9 12 0
Cincinnati Reds (29-50) 2 9 0
W: Hendricks (6-6) L: Reed (0-2)
FanGraphs Win Probability | Box Score

The Good
–Adam Duvall had two hits, including his 22nd home run, and a walk. Jay Bruce singled and doubled. Joey Votto reached base four times, on a single and three walks.

–Jumbo Diaz pitched a perfect inning and a third in relief.

The Bad
–Pretty much everything else was bad. Start with Billy Hamilton, who was hit in the jaw with a fly ball after Duvall ran in front of him and completely botched the play. Go check out the highlight. The official scorer gave Anthony Rizzo an inside-the-park home run, but it should have been an error on Duvall.

Hamilton left the game. We’ll keep you updated on his condition.

–Terrible start for Cody Reed against one of the best lineups in the game: 4 innings pitched, seven runs allowed on nine hits. He did strike out five without walking anyone.

Not-So-Random Thoughts
–The Cubs were scuffling until they played the Reds. That scenario used to be reversed. Sigh…

–That’s all I feel like saying about this game. The Reds have lost 7 of 8, and 9 of 11. The Cubs scored 27 runs in sweeping this three-game series against the good guys.

What a mess…

Milton was unhappy with Cincinnati's performance tonight.

Milton was unhappy with Cincinnati’s performance today.

Blame Chad for creating this mess.

Chad launched Redleg Nation in February 2005, and has been writing about the Reds ever since. His first book, “The Big 50: The Men and Moments That Made the Cincinnati Reds” is now available in bookstores and online, at Amazon, Barnes & Noble, and wherever fine books are sold. You can also find Chad’s musings about the Cincinnati Reds in the pages of Cincinnati Magazine.

Join the conversation! 92 Comments

  1. I am baffled by all the Cubbie hate here. IF the Reds can’t be the top team in the division for me I like it’s the Cubs. I can’t stand the Cards and while Pittsburgh is okay, how can you not like the Cubbies and especially their home ballpark, maybe the coolest ballpark in all of baseball. They have some great young talent, a great manager and they are fun to watch. I hope they do well this year and hope that by 2018 we are battling them strong for the division.

    • With you on that, Maddon makes them even easier to root for. Read he brought 3 pitchers to play left field to get the players laughing and loosened up in last nights marathon.

    • I think a lot of it is that Cub fans tend to invade GABP and their fans are obnoxious.

      • Exceptionally obnoxious.

        • I have never found them to be obnoxious….you want obnoxious fans go to to either NYC teams…now that is obnoxious fans…or go to St. Louis.

          • I’ve been to both NY stadiums but that was when it was still the original Yankees Stadium and Shea. I was there in 1992, so some time ago. I was rooting for the O’s and was with a few other O’s fans. We got a little good-natured ribbing but nothing too bad. I’m mostly talking about road fans as their fans at Wrigley didn’t cause me any issue.

        • Boston fans are by far the most obnoxious. Then Cards and Yanks.

        • Just wait till the Cubs win something. Red Sox fans were tolerable pre-2004—then they multiplied in number, fervor, and obnoxiousness.

        • I’ve never cared for Cubs fans but they’re nowhere near as bad as NY or Boston fans. And I think their manager is about as good as there is in baseball, along with Showalter and Bochy. And now, to top it off, they have some players I kind of like too, Schwarber, (injured), Rizzo, Bryant, always liked David Ross.

        • University of oregon fans are the worst followed by the university of washington fans, then the cub fans

    • The Cubs were born to lose. When they win it’s a sign that the universe is off its axis. It makes me uneasy about life itself. I don’t like being uneasy about life. I like certainty—like the certainty that Joey Votto is going to give a good at bat or that Brandon Phillips is going to ground into a double play.

    • The Cubs can go to H—. I lived for 5 years in Chicago and their fans are insufferable.

    • Part of the cubbie “intense dislike” is so many all come out stating they are so die-hard when Cubs are good and talking smack, but when the next year Cubs fall flat, those same people deny being like that. I experienced that first hand in college in 80’s (84, 89), when a bunch of friends I thought were not even baseball fans all talking trash about cubs. then at my work place 20 years later, (07, 08, 09) when Reds were putting together their core and I was giving some banter to co-worker cub fans about Reds getting good and challenge to Cubs and couple of them jumped on me with jerk move of $1000 bets who was going to be better. After 2010 season and reds won division, I returned favor(not seriously, just to rub it in a bit) if they wanted put $1000 bet down for 2011, they acted like no clue what I was talking about and by 2013 stated they no longer following cubs……until the middle of last year. Go figure.

      Sure all teams have front runner fans but way too many in cubbie blue.

    • Perhaps this will help explain: Stupid Cubs.

    • I agree that Cub hate is not rational, usually, but I’m not certain that hate is the right word. “Mild contempt” might better describe it and, for me,at least, it comes from their carefully crafted lovable loser image. The fans didn’t really care whether or not they were any good, and came out to Wrigley despite the team’s perpetual lousiness. Nothing wrong with that, really, and it served the Reds and other NL teams well, having a punching bag on the schedule. Guess those days are over.

  2. Cubs fans are the worst. Many are some of the biggest bandwagon fans ever. They act like they are this super loyal, long suffering fan base base, when in reality most of them don’t know baseball is played after June.

    • Do they not pack Wrigley Field year in year out?, what is GABP attendance in comparison the past 3 seasons after June

      • Yes, the Cubs do pack Wrigley Field in a metro area of 9.5 million, in comparison to Cincinnati at 2.2 million. And the North Siders are the most popular MLB team in Chicago.

  3. This current Reds team might be the worst ever. They are routinely embarrassed 2 out of every three games, and make at least one Bad News Bears play every game.

    Examine The Rizzo inside the park HR – The CF has that play. You call for the ball. Billy Hamilton is a better fielder than Duvall. So why did Duvall botch the catch, thereby ricocheting off Billy’s face?

    It’s just plain embarrassing. I hope the players are ashamed.

    • Except Duvall is having a great season at the plate… so you have to take his mediocre defense with a grain of salt. This team needed a big bat and they managed to find one. If only the scouts were as good when it comes to relievers. Travis Wood is a guy the Reds could have used but sadly he was shipped off as part of that disastrous Sean Marshall trade that really set the team back in a big way.

      • That’s not mediocre D, that’s a blatant disregard of fundamentals by either Duvall or Hamilton.

        Call for fly ball. Other player gets out of the way. The end.

      • Until this year, Travis Wood has not been very good. Sean Marshall was a lights out lefty before he got hurt. Are you really going to evaluate that trade like you just did?

      • Jeez, guys. Most players make boneheaded plays once in a while. Duvall has been good defensively–surprisingly so. Not mediocre. And Jesse: the boys in Red haven’t lost 2 out of 3. Not yet. But your point is taken. I’d only say that we all expected something like this in a transition year.

      • i miss Travis

    • My take on it is that the Reds are not a fundamentally sound baseball team. To me that means bad coaching. Not putting all the blame on Bryan Price by any means. It seems like the Reds players cone up from the minors with a basic lack of fundamental skills. Not sure how to quantify that but it certainly seems like something is seriously wrong at an organizational level.

      • Well Duvall is not from the Reds organization and Hamilton is stellar defensively. Young teams will make mistakes. This team lacks a bullpen and is missing half the rotation… offensively they have gotten better, if Frazier was still around they would really be scoring a ton (at least in the first half)… anyhow, I have plenty to gripe about, but the bullpen mess supercedes everything else in my mind.

        • I assume you were being sarcastic when you indicated they’d be scoring a ton more with Frazier. Suarez has 86% of Frazier’s Wrc at 6.5% of the price.

        • Well maybe “ton” was an exaggeration… but Frazier is a first half player he would have added production this year… not disagreeing with the trade per se but I believe the offensive numbers would be higher with the Todd Father still on board.

    • I feel what you’re saying. The past couple weeks have been especially bad overall. As for the play yesterday however, as bad as it was, it is the type of play that happens sometimes to about every team over the long 162. Still, the lack of fundamentals and repeated mistakes with this team are why I think Price needs to go. It really has very little to do with their record.

  4. Reds are a mess. I knew that in May. Not a Cubs but what’s not to like? A solid team plus very well managed. We’re not either.

    • The sad part is when Baker was fired everybody was yelling to sign Price before somebody else did. We had a great chance to get Francona then and didn’t even interview him. FO was to Damn cheap to bring in a top notch manager.

      • Over his first 4 years as a manager, Francona’s winning percentage was roughly the same as Price’s. The Phillies were terrible and he lost…..like every other manager in history. Boche, Torre, Pinella, Anderson, Stengall, Maddon, Lasorda all lost at least 97 games when they had no talent.

        Perhaps he could have guided the Reds to 2-3 more wins a year than Price….perhaps not. There is absolutely no reason to believe that the Reds record under Francona would’ve been much different.

        No one wins with Jumbo Diaz, Kevin Gregg, Jason Marquis and JJ Hoover…..no one.

        • Every manager makes decisions that leave fans scratching their heads. Few, if any managers have a significant impact on the overall record of a team over time. Sparky Anderson isn’t the only manager who would have won with the Big Red Machine and none of the other managers Chuck mentions would have any significant impact on the number of wins this team has. Bryan Price will likely lose his job. Maybe he should, maybe not, I don’t know. But this team’s W/L record would not be appreciably different with literally any other manager.

        • You need to go look at thst Phillies roster and tell me who besides Shilling and Role was worth anything. The Reds roster had a lot more talent on it . Of course you can’t win with the said pitches but Price ran them out there everytime. For being a pitching guru the guy hasn’t showed me squat. He isn’t getting anything out of this team . Fundamentals are terrible and he has no control over this team. Anderson would have yanked these pitchers after the first walk. Price has no clue. Get over your man crush for Price.

        • The 97 loss 2000 Phillies had Rolen and Abreu in their prime…along with Burrell, Lieberthal and Glanville. Not exactly the ’62 Mets.

          The Sparky Anderson led 103 loss Detroit Tigers of 1989 gave up 4.1 walks per game. The 2016 Reds have averaged 4.3. Captain Hook made a huge difference.

          I have no man crush for Price. He’s largely irrelevant…..just like Sparky Anderson.

      • @ Jack – I don’t think that is true. Francona went to Cleveland after the 2012 season. The Reds had just won the division, so Dusty wasn’t going anywhere.

  5. Brutal!!! This is the baseball equivalent of the Philadephia 76ers… Almost as if we’re tankin’ to get a high draft pick. Cannot believe it’s helpful for a youngster like Cody Reed to get rocked like that at home. The pitching staff has to be one of the worse in the history of MLB… And that’s not just histrionics… It’s a statistical fact. Simply put… We suck… And it is embarrassing!!!

  6. Well I can live with Duvall’s defensive effort. He is diving for every ball. In stark contrast to our first baseman. He is diving out of the way of every hard hit ball hit his way. I would be embarrassed.

  7. Cody Reed should get a few more starts. But if he keeps getting lit up like this, he needs to go back down before he get shell-shocked. His first start looked electric in terms of stuff, and a couple bad location pitches. But now he’s getting beaten like a rented mule. He may have been successful in the minors with this kind of location and velocity, but he got murdered today.

    • He got lit up by the best offensive team in the league.
      Give him a chance
      He’s not our biggest problem thats for sure.
      Finnegan and Lamb are both pitching well but our pen keeps giving there wins away.They both have pitched well enough to be over 500 pitchers.
      Reed will also.
      They need to go deeper into games to avoid the pen blowing it for them.
      PRICE MUST GO

      • Jay: how is your final three words relevant to the rest of your post? Or was that just a random thought? Reed getting hammered by the Cubs is on Price? The bullpen that the Front Office provided Price is his fault? If Price leaves pitchers out longer he gets hammered for having young guys throw too many pitches (and that was a frequent comment on some message boards earlier this season). If he takes them out and hands it over to the sub-standard bullpen, he gets hammered for doing that. Reality is that Price will probably lose his job but if your post was a justification for that, it falls short in my opinion.

        • Nothing to do with tonights game.Just my strong feelings about our manager and his lack of talent.
          Sorry to through that in but I generally put that into any comment that I make.
          I think he stinks.

        • JAZZ
          Do I really need to repeat how many things that Price does wrong over and over?
          They are mentioned so often that its really not necessary at this point.I know that people post that he has been dealt a terrible hand in the pen.That is totally true,but he truly has no idea how to use these guys even though they are unreliable.He misuses Cingrani,Ohlendorf and did it for 2 years with Jumbo.
          The difference in how Maddon builds up his rather weak bullpen pitchers as opposed to how Price does the opposite over and over is glaring.Maddon gets the best of a weak bunch while our clown puts them in positions to fail again and again.
          He’s bad,period.I can’t believe you really are trying to defend him.

      • Cubs are good offensively.
        vs. San Diego – 5 innings 5 ER’s
        vs. Houston – 7 innings 4 ER’s

    • He didn’t walk anyone today and his defense didn’t help him.

      Reed will be fine. If you strike out a lot of guys and you don’t walk many over a long period of time, you are a good pitcher.

  8. Disco learned as is Finnegan and Lamb to pitch at the major league level.Reed needs the experience and young pitchers are almost always inconsistent in the beginning but he will be fine.I would love to see him start every 5th day for the rest of the year.He has swing and miss stuff with a wipe out slider he just needs to learn how to pitch at this level.

  9. They’re hit by a train

  10. I’m beginning to have serious doubts about the major league readiness of all our talented minor league pitching. Granted the Cubs have an explosive lineup but Reed is getting rocked on most nights. Finnegan shows promise in some starts but looks shaky most of the time. Lamb has his moments but too often looks like bad-Bronson Arroyo. Are these guys as major league ready as we thought or would they benefit from more minor league seasoning. While they are great prospects I’ve always wondered if they were really as good as the front office thinks. Is it good for them to taking their lumps in the majors? That can’t be good for their confidence. Like everyone else, I was seduced by the front office’s claims about our great pitching prospects. So far I’m not seeing it. I know the sample sizes are too small to make the numbers meaningful but I’m a little worried. Anyone else feel the same way?

    • Yeah, I say let them pitch at MLB and learn.
      See the early days of Tom Glavine, Greg Maddux, John Smoltz.

      The one thing they are lacking is a veteran-type pitcher (H. Bailey on DL) to help teach/guide the younger guys.

    • Hasn’t Reed only made 3 starts? He got rocked in two of them, so I guess that qualifies technically qualifies as “most nights.” But it is an absurdly small sample size, isn’t it?

  11. ANY team that seriously considers itself a contender for the World Series, 2016, should ABSOLUTELY sweep the Reds, and rack up the runs in the process. That being said, I fully expect Dusty Baker’s Nationals to completely struggle against Cincinnati the next few nights.

  12. I saw a video clip of Duvall commenting on the Rizzo HR play. Duvall said the ball was “in no man’s land” and that they were both going for it. He said he didn’t take his eye off the ball but probably “flinched” a little bit when he realized Hamilton was so close to him. Regardless Duvall owned up and said he should have caught the ball.

    So now my question. Duvall was in front of Hamilton and 1st man to the ball. He did not try to duck the blame but did state (by inference) that Hamilton distracted him. Why are so many folks dumping on Duvall and not a single person I have read suggesting that maybe Hamilton should have stayed out of the way and let Duvall make the play?

    We don’t know if the ball was suddenly tailing toward Duvall or turning over into Hamilton or was carrying on a consistent line between them. All things being equal the player the ball is moving into is the guy who should play it; and, if the guy the ball is moving away from realizes the movement of ball and position of the other player, he needs to make way.

    For my part, I think this may have just been one of those plays that happens where neither player was really at fault.

    • No! You CALL for the ball. You say “I’ve got it!” That is what you do. Basic basic fundamental.

      • It sure looked to me like Hamilton had called for the ball. Still – a couple of feet either way and it’s clearly a Duvall or Hamilton ball and this never happens. Nothing to get worked up over long term. Just one great defensive player and another hustling defensive player converging on a difficult ball. Unfortunate but not indicative of some systemic problem.

      • A player shouldn’t call for a ball until he is sure he can get it. What I was suggesting is that the situation was so fluid that neither player was comfortable calling for it.

        • Someone’s got to call for it. That’s how injuries happen. It’s the CF’s job to call it on that play.

      • You really shouldn’t call it unless you know you have it. Also, in a full stadium, sometimes you call it but the other fielder doesn’t hear you. It was a messed up play but in and of itself, it isn’t proof on incompetence. When combined with the many, many more blatant fundamental mistakes however, it shows this team lacks some of the basics.

        • That’s a pretty impossible thing to work on in practice, however. If anything, it probably shows how little experience both Duvall and Hamilton have in playing OF.

        • “full” stadium? Don’t think GABP was nearly full.

    • Exactly Jim. It was hit in a spot where neither of them were sure they could catch it, and both were giving max effort. I’m just glad they didn’t collide.

  13. Just saw a re-tweet by @wickterrell which indicated that both Nick Senzel and Chris Okey have already been promoted from Billings (rookie league) to Dayton (low A). Maybe a wind of change is starting to blow through the Reds org.

  14. Here is an interesting game stat. Cub pitchers threw 36 pitches to Joey Votto in this game. Yes, 36! With two outs in the seventh inning, a big lead and no runners on base, Maddon brought in Grimm, a right-handed pitcher, to face Votto. My guess is that Maddon thought Hendricks just didn’t have it in him to face Votto one more time.

  15. Speaking of Maddon moves, here is another one he made that I wish the Reds would.
    While up 9-2 the 1st 2 Reds reached in the inning. Maddon didn’t wait for the current reliever to give up 3 runs before yanking him. He pulled said pitcher out then and there. Put out the fire before it gets serious.

    • In all fairness though, he actually has a few good options in the pen to go to in that situation.

  16. I’m OK with letting those young arms get some experience and endurance at ML level, what I don’t understand is how come they’re still playing Philips, Suarez and Holt play on an everyday basis, they won’t get any better, play Peraza, Selsky and Curtis instead.

    • Rightly or wrongly, at this point Curtis is seen as behind the curve and too flawed. I suspect Selsky is viewed as being on the cusp of the same. I thought Selsky and Waldrop both showed well in their brief time up. BHam was on concussion protocol after the game yesterday, we could well see one of them back with the Reds this weekend.

      • When the Reds organization adjusts to see value in a player who simply hits at every level and every opportunity, rather than valuing the high SO HR hitter or toolsy players, then we will know the organization has completed (or at least begun) a philosophy change many of us have been weighting to see for a long time.

        Selsky could provide a valuable bat on the major league roster as a utility OF and pinch hitter, but the Reds don’t even give him a serious look, yet he just keeps hitting.

    • Selsky and Curtis both profile as bench guys. That’s pretty much their upsides. You might get lucky and see one them turn into a starter. Suarez however profiles as a potential MLB starter. You have to keep running him out there. At this point, an argument can be made that BP is an aging player and is no longer productive enough to warrant a spot in the every day lineup. Holt also profiles as a bench guy and I don’t think he’s getting too much playing time. Honestly, we don’t know what he can do anymore than we know what Selsky can do and they both profile and project the same way.

      • The Reds mantra seems to be they always carry a pure CF and SS backup (i.e. good glove, questionable bat) on the 25 man rather than having them “in waiting” at AAA like the 3rd catcher. That pretty much kills opportunity for guys like Selsky and Waldrop.

    • Phillips okay, but Holt hasn’t even played that much and Suarez is 3 years younger than Curtis, and 2 years younger than Selsky.

      People always forget Suarez is only 24.

  17. I am all for letting as many guys play as possible to see if they are part of the future team.As far as a manager making a difference I personally believe that they are usually only as good as the talent they have to work.However they should get better with experience and how many wins that equals to is beyond me.

  18. The Nationals have signed RHP Mat Latos to a minor league contract. That will be his 5th team in 2 years. Attitude and a bum right elbow. Even if the Reds hadn’t received Anthony DeSclafani in that trade, and just got Chad Wallach, they came out ahead.

  19. Global comment for all the people with negative Reed comments…

    In his 3 starts, his HR/FB% is 37.5%.

    From 2002 to 2016 (2002 is the earliest we have batted ball data), the person with the highest HR/FB% is Jim Thome, at 27.8%.

    So, if you think Reed’s “runs given up performance” is his fault, you think that every hitter he’s faced is 28% better at hitting home runs than the best home run hitter of the last 15 seasons.

    Thankfully, there is a stat that normalizes HR rate to be league average…xFIP.

    Cody Reed’s xFIP? 3,26

    Also, Reed’s BABIP against is .419, which is 40 points higher than the person with the highest BABIP in MLB history, Ty Cobb.

    So, if you think Reed has a problem, you inherently think the average hitter he’s faced is a mash up of Ty Cobb’s bat and Jim Thome’s power.

    IF you don’t buy that, then you have to buy the real answer… bad luck. There you go. His BABIP and HR/FB% will come down drastically. If he keeps striking guys out and controlling his walks, he’ll be a good pitcher.

    • His slider is more a put-away pitch like a splitter and not really a strike. Good hitters are going to lay off that (atleast before 2 strikes) and then its tee off time on the fastball. That’s not bad luck! He needs a change and/or curve in the worst way! The problem is that guys like Reed can make it in AAA without really developing their game so sending him down might not help much? I remember Cueto taking a beat in his first year. Young guys get in trouble so they try to throw harder! Greinke was like 5-18 with the Royals early on. Nothing to be worried about at this point….we agree on that!

      • It’s not bad luck? So Reed is the worst pitcher in MLB history by a wide margin? I mean… those are the two answers. Either it’s variance (remember, bad luck means variance, not the Webster’s definition of “luck.), or he’s the worst pitcher ever.

  20. Thanks Patrick for the data side of the Reed debate which reinforces the eye test.Been around a few blocks and I look for two things in a starting pitcher when it comes to his stuff.Does he have swing and miss stuff and his command.He has the swing and miss and just needs to work on his command which all young guys struggle with.

  21. Almost all the damage off of Reed came on the first 3 pitches of each at-bat. Clearly the Cub’s game plan was to ambush him early and often. Smart strategy imo. Granted, he didn’t hit his spots, but you do have to wonder why the Reds are so slow to adjust in-game rather than hardheadedly sticking to their game plan. It’s been a complaint of mine forever.

  22. Mark Sheldon has tweeted a Reds line up which has “the center fielder” batting 7th. That would be Hamilton or Peraza depending on whether Hamilton clears the concussion protocol:

    Cozart 6, Votto 3, Phillips 4, Bruce 9, Duvall 7, Suarez 5, the center fielder, Barnhart 2, DeSclafani 1

  23. The Reds need a LH reliever in a bad way.
    The Dodgers DFA’d LHP Ian Thomas from their AAA team and 40-man roster to make room for the just acquired starting pitcher Bud Norris. He was having a greta year at AAA. He is 29 though, but not bad for a reliever. Doesn’t throw 97mph but does throw strikes. He does have some limited ML experience.
    The Reds could get this guy when he has to go through waivers. The Phillies are the only team that can select him before the Reds can. Maybe the Reds can work out a minor trade here on this front while discussing Bruce with the Dodgers.

    http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=13881&position=P

  24. Perhaps the funniest thing I’ve read in awhile… this comes from an article about the Yankees bullpen on FG:

    “No team is more reliant on their bullpen for wins than the Yankees. Their starting pitcher WAR of 6.4 ranks 12th in the majors. Their position player of 3.3 ranks 26th, and their wRC+ for non-pitchers is an abysmal 86, besting only the Atlanta Braves and Philadelphia Phillies. Their bullpen WAR of 4.1 is second in the majors and accounts for almost 30% of the team’s total. The graph below shows the percentage of a team’s WAR so far this year that’s come from the bullpen. (I wasn’t quite sure how to classify the Reds, as their -4.0 bullpen WAR is technically 1,000 percent of their total -0.4 WAR, so I just put them at the end to indicate that their bullpen is really bad.)”

    A normal graph is unable to show the depravity of the Reds bullpen.

    http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/the-great-yankees-bullpen-sale/

  25. Fun stat…

    Jose Peraza is already 24th in the NL in cumulative base running value (BsR) at 1.6 runs above average. He’s only been on base 16 times.

    Billy is 5th in the NL at 3.4. Starling Marte 1st at 4.2.

Comments are closed.

About Chad Dotson

Blame Chad for creating this mess. Chad launched Redleg Nation in February 2005, and has been writing about the Reds ever since. His first book, "The Big 50: The Men and Moments That Made the Cincinnati Reds" is now available in bookstores and online, at Amazon, Barnes & Noble, and wherever fine books are sold. You can also find Chad's musings about the Cincinnati Reds in the pages of Cincinnati Magazine.

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2016 Reds, Titanic Struggle Recap

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