Final R H E
  Cincinnati Reds  (23-29) 0 3 1
  Aridzona Diamondbacks  (23-33) 4 10 0
 W: Collmenter (4-2)     L: Cingrani (2-4)
 Box Score |   Play-by-Play    |   Photos    |    Depth Chart   |  FanGraphs Win Probability


One of the two teams showed up tonight. Last October, when Bryan Price described how he wanted the Reds to play for him, it was the opposite of how his team looked tonight. I wouldn’t insult the goat with braces by associating him with the Cincinnati Reds’ pathetic performance. 


The Reds beat Clayton Kershaw last night.


Josh Collmenter is not Clayton Kershaw. In fact, Collmenter is one of the least accomplished starting pitchers in all of major league baseball. He’s had only one start of more than six innings this season, when he gave up four runs in seven innings to the Rockies. In May, Collmenter has made it through six innings once. Collmenter has never pitched a complete game in the major leagues, let alone a shutout. Before tonight, before tonight that is.

The Reds didn’t have an inning with more than one runner on base. They didn’t manage to draw a single walk. The next time someone tries to tell you that the problem with the Reds offense is leaving runners on base or not hitting well with runners in scoring position, think about this game. If they had knocked in every base runner they would have lost. To Josh Feakin’ Collmenter.

Not so random thoughts

There’s nothing particularly surprising or damning about the Reds losing to St. Louis and Los Angeles, especially with Joey Votto still hurt and given the pitching the Reds faced the last week. This series in Arizona, however, is different. It’s going to be a good measure of where the Reds are right now. To say they came up short tonight would be like saying the bug came up short against your windshield. Pray that this is rock bottom.

166 Responses

  1. Whoa Bundy!

    This recap was posted Jimmy johns fast.

  2. John Walsh

    Positives: Two minutes to post.

    Negatives: Forgot a picture of Milton. If any game in the history of games deserves a Milton, it’s this one.

    • John Walsh

      My apologies. I do see the reference to Milton now. I agree with this decision.

      No negatives shall be awarded. Only positives. Which are the only positives for the Reds tonight.

  3. kywhi1

    “Pray that this is rock bottom.”

    Pretty much sums it up.

    Have Jocketty or Castellini gone on record in the last day or two concerning what they think about this situation?

    • preacherj

      We came to the conclusion in the game thread that Castellini is acutally dead. Perhaps he was killed in the WAR.

      • kywhi1


        Thank you for the laughs! Much needed — on many fronts!

      • Whoa Bundy!

        Hahahah. Classic. Line of the night. If you see Jonathan Silverman and Andrew McCarthy in GABP you know what is going on.

    • greenmtred

      I freely admit that I turned the game on an hour into it–morbid fascination, I suppose–and turned it off and went to bed when the score went to 2 zip. Seemed clear it was over. My only attempt at apologizing for the front office is this: Again, consider the injuries. I wish the Reds had more help available in the minors, but their talent is evidently a year or two away from ready, and fixing what’s wrong via trades or signings–well, who is available who could actually help? What would it cost? There is simply too much missing to fix that way, I believe. They don’t need a few pints of blood, they need a total blood transfusion. But I am patient….

  4. wildwestlv

    Brutal to watch. Just…abysmal.

  5. preacherj

    Our game thread was entertaining. That’s something, I guess.

  6. Dale Pearl

    something has got to give with our offense. If we are going to take a walk as good as a hit mentality why don’t we just hire 8 short people to play league minimum and go out out and sign top dollar to every ace pitcher. Try finding the strike zone if you are a pitcher throwing to a batter who is 3 feet tall.

      • greenmtred

        He’s not lost. He may, in fact, be on to something. Didn’t Eddie Gaedel walk in his plate appearance? Face it: the boys of summer need some offense. The only problem I see with the idea is the fielding. Base running, too, I suppose, in the event that somebody hit the ball.

  7. Mister D69

    Promised a relative to go to a game in June. Buddy coming into town for the Boston series. Might get bored and go to one in August. That’s about it for me.
    Can’t see spending money on this lousy crap.

    • kywhi1

      Starting to feel the same way. In my case, it requires a 3-1/2 hour drive from eastern Kentucky plus the cost of a hotel room, etc. If you hope to make a nice weekend out of it, you can easily drop at least $700 before you know it — and that’s just for me.

  8. wildwestlv

    The good news for the offense is that Mike Leake will be in the batter’s box, tomorrow. Help is on the way.

  9. ohiojimw

    A bit of minutia. I see in the box score on that Cingrani was charged with allowing 2ER. The lead off man doubled, stole third and scored on a throwing error made on the steal attempt. The 2nd and 3rd batters were retired on K’s, the 4th batter flied out. So how does that run go down as earned?

    • ohiojimw

      Nevermind that third run in the 6th happened so quickly I plum forgot about it being allowed by Cingrani 🙂

    • AnnapolisHoosier

      Because he wouldn’t have scored without the Mesoroco throwing error. Second straight game a bad defensive play by Mesoroco has allowed a run. He’s not a good defensive catcher

  10. George Mirones

    While most reds fans want the Major League team fixed now. What we are watching is what we have. One of the other real questions for the GM is; what to do to grow our AA and AAA teams that will help the Reds stay competitive as the current players continue to age and decline. IMO none of the position players on the 25 man roster will bring much in return to make a difference this season. The only thing we have that any team in contention would want is the starting pitching. Those few victories that the Reds have would be a lot less without Simon, Leake, and Cueto and those guys will the ones that other teams will seek. The window has very quietly closed and the silence is killing all of us.

    • charlottencredsfan

      One positive that Steve missed: Marshall pitched a whole inning and not only that, he didn’t give up a run either.

      The races to make the playoffs are looking to be so tight this year, I think you could unload quite a bit before the deadline: Cueto, Simon, BP, Pena , Ludwick, Heisey, Schu, Chapman, Brox and if he recovers to any degree, Marshall. I would be willing to part with Bailey too but that is not looked upon kindly at the Nation. Let’s be honest though, HB is overrated (ERA vs. xFIP) and I think we should take advantage of that. Reds are lucky that this is the year that they are forced to rebuild because it will be fertile ground for deals. Reds are going to have to do thir very best to dump payroll so they can actually afford to pay some guys that can play. 2015 will probbaly be a tough year but hopefully we will have a very young team that we can watch develop. Watching old guys that are past their prime is not a lot of fun.

      If and when we drop out, it would be great to start extending Chapman’s innings to try to target him as an SP in 2015 and I would give Tony a crack at the closers role. A rotation fronted by Latos, Leake, Chapman, Bailey would be a very good start. Bullpen guys are a dime a dozen if you have two pennies to rub together, just stop with the 2-yaer deals already.

      • ohiojimw

        Everybody always says that bullpen guys are a dime a dozen or however they want to say to indicate cheap. However, how does that jive with the fact that the only two that seem to get the job done with regularity for the Reds are the two that are being paid big bucks???

        And somebody is going to to reply that the Reds two high paid guys are only about league average at what they do. Fine. Now tell me what the league average salary is for league average 8th inning and 9th inning guys. Sight unseen I bet it is closer to what the Reds are paying their two guys than to the minimum or or only $1M or $2M a year.

      • RiverCity Redleg

        The knock on paying bullpen guys big money (or rather, long contracts) is that they are historicly inconsistant from year to year. You have roughly the same probability of success for the year from a scrap heap pick up as you do from last years bullpen stud. That doesn’t mean that just anyone can do the job. It just just means there is a lot of variabilty risk, so there are probably better, less risky ways to spend you finite monies on.

      • ohiojimw

        “Watching old guys that are past their prime is not a lot of fun…..”
        Even less with guys that maybe never even had a prime or are mediocre and borderline as to why they are even on an MLB roster.

      • Robby20

        The current GM was hired in 2008. It seems to me that the system should have produced one solid major league position player in that time. The pitcher scorecard is much better. Leake, Cingrani and Chapman all have been drafted or signed by the current management team. Latos was acquired for players drafted in the last 6 years (none of which look like they will be above average players) If one reads the minor league update on this site it does not paint a pretty picture for the future.

      • Robby20

        The only old guys past their prime are Ludwick and Phillips. Age is not the teams’ problem. The problem is lack of talent. Same boring team that finished last season in a funk surprisingly showed up to play this season. The fact that management did nothing significant to improve the team in the off-season other than changing managers and coaches is laughable. As if Dusty Baker was the reason this team couldn’t hit and produce runs.

      • ohiojimw

        “The problem is lack of talent.”

        Exactly what I was politely trying to hint at. Mesoraco may still grow into something worthwhile but aside from him has this team developed a single average to above average position player since Votto? Frazier and Cozart are both in their 28YO season; so, I think it is fair to say what they are they are. Frazier is hanging right around average (OPS+). Cozart………

      • Eric NYC

        Jay Bruce. And Grandal if you count guys on other teams now. Most teams aren’t built with home grown players at every position. The fact that almost our entire infield is home grown and 4 of those guys are plus MLB players (and the other is an elite defensive player) isn’t half bad. Throw in Jay Bruce in the OF and if you believe Hamilton can become a plus player that’s an awful.lot of home grown position players. And 4/5 of the starting rotation. This team is horribly underperforming this year an is probably on the back end of being competitive with this group, but we were built from the ground up. If we had won it all in 2012 it would have been almost entirely with guys we drafted or signed as rookies.

      • Robby20

        The team has been horribly under performing for over half a season now. Maybe, just maybe it is who they have become. It really is just not a very good hitting team. The starting pitching and defense have been excellent but coming back to earth recently and the offense which has been an issue for more than one season is now abysmal. And you are right prior to Walt’s arrival the draft produced most of the Reds’ key players.

        Baker made a comment last year and it didn’t get much play but he was the only one connected with the team who was outspoken enough to say that maybe management had overrated the talent on the team.

        Regardless, the window on this roster has closed and the disturbing thing is how little there is in the system that appears to be on the brink to help move the team forward.

      • ohiojimw

        @EricNYC, I stand corrected on Bruce. I had it in my head that he debuted at mid season the year that Votto debuted in September but in actuality Votto was up in September the season prior to JB coming up in late May.

      • redmountain

        Schumacker, Bernadina, and Pena. I agree with much of what you say, but the front office is not to blame for the Reds not playing well.

      • liptonian

        I stopped listening too closely, but did I hear Marty say the Angels were looking at Marshal b/c they wanted a lefty to shore up their bullpen? If i heard that correctly and I were Reds management I would jump on the opportunity to unload him and maybe pick up some prospects.

      • Robby20

        He won’t bring much but I look at that as addition by subtraction.

      • jcredlegs

        Just dumping that atrocious contract would be enough.

      • ohiojimw

        Just dumping that atrocious [Marshall] contract would be enough.

        Exactly. There is still around $9M, give or take, left on the contract. I suspect the Reds would be pleased if they could get somebody to take half of it for a token “prospect” whose name we’d all forget about before the contract ends at the end of the 2015 season.

  11. Aaron Bradley

    The Arizona post game show.. I can’t describe this…but its like college baseball.. they have no team history and this is one of the greatest games for them to talk about.

    • ohiojimw

      It was said on the Reds TV that this was 13th time in MLB history a guy had faced only the minimum and not thrown a perfect game. So, it actually was a somewhat unique event.

      • Vicferrari

        Just curious how many times, there were 3 hits and still get the minimum

  12. sergeant2

    I’ll be serving plenty of crow come Sunday after the Reds complete taking 3 outta 4 from the DBacks. I suppose I could be negative like most, but the way the Reds are struggling at the moment, being negative is like kicking a dog when its down, or shooting fish in a barrel. When the going gets tough, the tough get going. (fans included) I fully expect the Reds to seek some redemption tomorrow by beating the DBacks. Go Reds!!!!!

    • pinson343

      I like it that your mind frame after a loss is the same as after a win. Going into the series, I thought the Reds might lose the first game and then win the next three. The key to getting to Bronson is the LHed hitters. I presume Lutz will be in the lineup and Bruce has to break out of his funk.

  13. Aaron Bradley

    They do have some nice deals in AZ… seem sI get a free Jumbo Jack with the purchase of a large drink … and when they score 6 runs or more you get 3 free taco bell tacos with the purchase of a large drink. Too bad I am in Nevada.

    • charlottencredsfan

      Ah man, that is great stuff. Nothing, and I mean nothing, beats gallows humor.

  14. David B

    I’m so sick of the REDS Hitters in this anemic funk…it’s really annoying watching the competition score on the REDS, in much the same ways as the REDS should be scoring on this Competition…As was mentioned Collmenter isn’t Kershaw, sad to watch mediocre pitchers leave the field with better ERA’s then they walked on the field with due to a lack of timely hitting…Start the game hitting .240 now hitting .238, Sadder still is that without virtually perfect pitching by the Pitching Staff,the game will end in a lose…

  15. Aaron Bradley

    I forgot that Leake is legendary in AZ… I think the Reds win tomorrow… despite the pathetic offense. Arroyo might give up a HR.

  16. ToddAlmighty

    Pirates are winning 6-3 against the Dodgers in the bottom of the 8th. Back to 4th place in the division for the Reds it seems.

    Reds not only lose to a team that’s 13 back before the end of May, but they do so while getting CGSO by some guy named Josh Collmenter, who is 28 and only has like 240 innings as a starter in his career.

    29th worst starting rotation in baseball and you get CGSO. Ugly. So very ugly.

  17. ToddAlmighty

    Reds are averaging 3 runs per game in May. 20.6% of their losses have been shutouts this year.

    • charlottencredsfan

      Have any positive stats to share?

      • ToddAlmighty

        Pena is hitting .286/.297/.429 in May now, and .476/.478/.619 in his last 21 AB. That’ll do backup catcher, that’ll do.

        Frazier is hitting .281/.340/.521 in May. In a Cleveland Browns-ish factory of sadness, Frazier is a true bright spot. Hopefully we have found an All-Star or at least borderline All-Star solution to 3B for the next 3-5 years.

  18. Jeff Morris

    Anyone know how long Price is signed as manager for the Reds? Is it just this year? Or longer? I can’t fault him for the Reds losing, as he is trying different lineup changes, but even he is going to get sick of the Reds not hitting every game and making pretty much every pitcher look like an All Star. I heard him say, he is tired of every pitcher throwing like an All Star against the Reds. That will be a broken record all year…

  19. David B

    Sadder still 3 hits, 1 being a double and still only 27 batters faced for a complete game…Yikes…

    • RiverCity Redleg

      …And all three hits were leadoff hits.

  20. Reds Fan in Arizona

    This isn’t Price’s fault he has to play the cards he’s dealt. Walt hasn’t given him much more than a deck of jokers to work with….

  21. RedsfanPa

    Yes, rock bottom….another mediocre pitcher makes the Red’s lineup look silly and pathetic. Yep, pathetic sums it up…..

    On another note, since the Mets fired their hitting coach and made other personnel moves they haven’t lost a game! Just sayin…..sometimes a message needs to be sent.

    This team needs a spark, changes need to be made

    On another note, Edwin Encarnacion hit 2 more home runs tonight. (16hr 48rbi)

    • Robby20

      But the Reds wouldn’t have made the playoffs in 2010 without Rolen. (sarcasm)

    • pinson343

      When the Rolen trade was made, the only complaints here were about the two “Cy Young caliber” pitchers the Reds traded. (Except maybe Chad, who was a big EE fan.)

      EE was a major defensive liability at 3rd base. And he did not start hitting for Toronto until after he was moved to first base. It was like a switch was flicked. I have to admit though that every year it gets harder to justify that trade. In hindsight, the Reds should have tried EE in LF.

      • Robby20

        No trade can be assessed in the first year or two. EE was certainly a liability at third but can one imagine having that bat in the line-up. And maybe he never reaches that potential in Cincinnati. No one will ever know. Tough watching his year unfold when the Reds can’t hit anyone.

    • ToddAlmighty

      What are they juicing up their players with up there in Canada? Last year it was Chris Davis’ 53 HR. Edwin Encarnacion turns 29 and suddenly starts slugging 100 points higher than his career average. Now he turns 31 and he’s slugging a little over .600.

      People don’t normally suddenly get more power as they go into their 30s, do they?

      • ToddAlmighty

        Ah, my bad. Chris Davis plays for Baltimore, not Toronto.

        Jose Bautista is another case where he turns 29 in Toronto and suddenly becomes an amazing hitter too.

        Bautista age 23-28: 91 OPS+, .400 SLG
        Bautista age 29-33: 158 OPS+, .566 SLG

        Encarnacion age 22-28: 104 OPS+, .453 SLG
        Encarnacion age 29-31: 148 OPS+, .551 SLG

        What’s in the water there? Awfully suspicious.

      • Robby20

        But he is from Toronto so maybe there is hope.

  22. pinson343

    I watched the last few innings, depressing. The DBack corner IFers were playing so far in on Hamilton, it was as if a weak hitting pitcher were at bat in a bunting situation. I don’t remember seeing that before with a major league hitter. He’s got to be able to hit a ground ball past one of them in that situation.

    In his 3rd and final AB, on an 0-2 pitch that’s outside and low, he seemed headed for the dugout before completing his swing.

  23. Robby20

    I have a question for all the SABR guys. When do you think the telecasts catch up with the new math of baseball and stop showing the players batting average, home runs and runs batted in? Just curious. Seems odd if those numbers are irrelevant that every baseball game telecast shows those stats for every player.

    • pinson343

      I’ve seen plenty of baseball telecasts – for years now – that show OBP and even OPS. I forget who, maybe ESPN ?

      • Robby20

        Didn’t say that. I asked why every telecast of every game shows those three statistics. During the course of the game various telecasts will show or highlight other stats but if you watch, for at least the first plate appearance of every player the station doing the telecast will show those three stats. That just seems odd to me if those are not the most important stats. Since it is so late I’ll ask the question again another time.

      • pinson343

        Oh OK you said “stop showing”. I guess the telecasts don’t want to lose the old timers.

      • Robby20

        Like me I guess. 🙂 I was being somewhat sarcastic as I believe those numbers are more relevant than many on this site believe them to be.

      • Eric NYC

        And some people also believe in ghosts.

      • Robby20

        I guess you don’t believe in ghosts either.

    • Matt WI

      I’m not sure I’d feel comfortable using the choices of network programmers as a sign of what matters… but you go ahead. Their job is to appeal to the lowest common denominator and sell things… not necessarily to appeal to common sense and critical thinking.

      • preacherj

        Wow, us old timers really aren’t thought very highly of, huh? I guess if my thinking were a bit more critical, I would be a better fan.

      • Matt WI

        Preach… I’ve never seen/heard you not fairly discuss all ideas, and I feel very confident that you’d never cite “because it’s on my tv screen” as a fact of relevance.

        Certainly in retrospect my post was harsher than I was meaning, but I was more pointing out the specific logic of what stats are shown where than overall attitude toward any of it.

      • Robby20

        Can’t have a reasonable discussion. I go to games all over the country and have been to most of the major league stadiums. Every scoreboard in these stadiums still puts up a players batting average, home runs and runs batted in. But now I know that is to appeal to a set of fans who don’t get or understand the finer points of the game.

        It is interesting that one can’t hardly watch a Reds’ game without some discussion of Joey Votto taking place on whether his approach and what he has become as a player is better than the player he was, say in 2010. This discussion takes place among people who have been around the game for most of their adult lives and they have that discussion with some saying he needs to drive in more runs and some saying he is producing runs by getting on base and not making outs.

        The point being that even people in the game disagree on the subject. One would hope one could disagree on this subject here without questioning ones understanding of the game.

        My initial question was when will the broadcasters stop showing the stats if they are meaningless. No one has answered the question.

      • Robby20

        Not very welcoming, indeed. Maybe I should change my moniker to Bruce32

      • Robby20

        That was a polite and gentlemanly response and didn’t really answer the initial question but go ahead and type away. Every telecast and I mean every telecast still shows the players batting average, home runs and runs batted in. What does that have to do with selling anything? Those statistics are shown because they have relevance. If the stats were useless they wouldn’t be shown or would be shown less often.

      • Matt WI

        One thing that does get confused is that of course the old stats still have relevance. It’s the degree to which they explain a player’s talent that the two camps diverge. Most “saber” people don’t deny those stats are of some value in knowing, but it just comes down to small percentages in player evaluation. Most of the time, but certainly not all of the time, a team will be more successful or have more success if more attention is paid beyond the basic counting stats in terms of talent evaluation. The new stats are not faultless, and I think that’s something people in the “old school” camp tend to put on the “new camp” that isn’t fair.

      • ohiojimw


        My sense is more that the “new camp” often has a chip on their shoulder and doesn’t want to hear about the shortcomings of their rate based stats despite the fact that two of Bill Jame’s primary tenets are to remain skeptical and unemotional.

        The sabremetrics course on talked about something the guy called “PhD level research” which the lecturer characterized as having enough substansive and statistical knowledge “to be dangerous” because one can paint a strong logical picture which is factually flawed without realizing that is what they are doing. I suspect we have that happening a lot with an emerging science like sabremetics

      • ohiojimw

        Speaking of being dangerous, how about embedding a quote inside HTML delimiters without stopping to think what I was doing 🙂

      • TDCMMG.COM

        Yeah, I was probably a little more defensive than need be. No harm, no foul. And I use a lot more than “baseball card stats” in my review of players. It’s just hard to put scouting reports and comparisons on scoreboards and television screens.

    • the next janish

      I’m going to say that the fab three will always be around (Avg, RBI, and W-L). Just hang out at a little league game and you’ll understand why. A lot of the great stuff that is discussed is just too advanced for probably 80% of those paying to attend the titanic struggle; but they would probably get Milton.

  24. pinson343

    Sean Marshall’s scoreless inning was sheer luck – he gave up hard line drives to 3 of the 4 hitters he faced, including the number 8 hitter and the pitcher. His 87 mph fastball is not good enough. It reminds me of how Mario Soto, after he hurt his shoulder and lost velocity on his fastball, lost his effectiveness because hitters could sit on his change up and still catch up with his fastball. In Marshall’s case, they just sit on his breaking pitches and can still drill the fastball.

    • preacherj

      He also threw one in the dirt that Mes had to smother.

    • sultanofswaff

      He was afraid to throw a fastball except when he was down in the count. Topped out at 87. Everything else was soft away. If some team is willing to trade for him, I’ll volunteer to be the driver.

  25. Big Red Ghost in this Machine

    Walt Jocketty needs to be fired.

    • big5ed

      Amen. The system is not developing offensive talent, and hasn’t since Jocketty took over.

      • vared

        That’s a great point. Whenever there’s mention of finding a right handed bat with some pop, the conversation is looking outside of the organization. I think I’m right that you can’t even say the system was depleted in a “win now” move because even the few guys traded away aren’t tearing it up either. It’s sad when no one can even say “Just wait until (fill in the blank) gets here.” Seems like a sad state of affairs all the way around right now – unless I’m mistaken about the quality of the bats at the lower levels of the system, which is possible.

      • the next janish

        But you do have to give Walt credit on those trades, as what we got back (not counting injuries) is much better then what they got.

  26. Dale Pearl

    Interesting article on about the game. Price said changes are coming here is an excerpt:

    Manager Bryan Price has seen enough and indicated changes were coming.

    “What you start to do is start to give more people opportunities,” Price said. “We have a five-man bench and we will utilize it as you’ll see [Friday] and over the course of this series and moving forward. You can’t keep trying the same things and expect a different result.

    “We know these guys are grinding and it’s frustrating. Everyone is frustrated. There is not a lack of effort by any means. There is a lack of results.”

      • Aaron Bradley

        One does have to wonder why Lutz wasn’t in the lineup.. he was one of the few bright spots vs the Dodgers. He deserves to start over Ludwick at this juncture.

      • John Walsh

        From the Enquirer version:

        “I don’t want to discredit this kid,” Price said. “He threw a very nice ball game … That’s testament to him and to the fact we haven’t been swinging the bats well. Not just recently, but for the bulk of the year.

        “We have to be the ones to make the adjustment. He threw a nice ballgame. But we’re better than 27 guys batting in nine innings. That’s beyond unacceptable.”

    • Vicferrari

      Tough to roll heads with that bench. I assume Lutz gets in there, who needs a shake-up, Frazier? Phillips? Pena? Mes?Its the awful OF- send Bruce and Ludwick to the DL, Hamilton back to the minors/
      What can Price do?

      • ProspectCincy

        What can price do?

        How bout not allow pitchers to take AB’s late in games when the team is trailing.

        How bout using his good bullpen more often than his bad bullpen. How many games has Broxton / Lecure / Chapman been in vs Ondrusek / Marshall / Hoover over the last three weeks?

        How bout anything to fire this team up? I can appreciate that he’s been dealt a bad hand, but I don’t see the passion. The season is two months in; gone are the days where we can say “Still plenty of time left”

  27. sezwhom

    Positive: Pena! At least he hits. Paging Brook Jacoby….Brook Jacoby, please report to the Reds dugout in AZ. All is forgiven.

  28. Kyle Farmer

    Really hope that Bad Bronson shows up tonight.

  29. ProspectCincy

    The pitching last night was pretty OK actually. I don’t like that Price sacrificed an AB in the 6th down 2 runs just so he could try and squeeze an extra inning out of Tony that didn’t need to be squeezed (bullpen hasn’t pitched all that much this season), but 4 runs and 3 ER in Arizona is usually good enough to win.

    27 up / 27 down against Josh Collmenter. Never would I ever.

    • Grand Salami

      The not so good guys saw a total of 94 pitches last night. That’s impressively unimpressive.

      The starting corner outfielders have been automatic outs for the last week. I hope it was ugly enough to shake things up too Steve!

      • Kurt Frost

        Hey, walking and/or working the pitcher is for sissies. GRIP IT AND RIP IT!!

  30. David B

    Time for the REDS to show some Back Bone and get in a bench clearing brawl to wake this passive team up… Getting shut-out by some clown wearing a gum bucket on his head is pathetic…show some Guts REDS…these Reds hitters are waiting on the perfect pitch too much…that’s what make hitters like S. Castro of the Cubs such an asset…that guy hits some of the worse pitches for base-hits…the pitch can be a foot away from a strike but some how hits it into play…Come-on REDS show some BACKBONE…

    • Drew

      How is not hitting showing a lack of Backbone? Are you saying they just don’t care?

  31. NCRedsFan

    There have been very few times in the 30 years I have been watching the Reds that I have been this frustrated with their hitting. It’s sad. I’m sure the players are feeling just as pissed and frustrated, or at least would hope so. With all the scouting and video and bp and coaching they get, I just wonder how it doesn’t improve. I would be interested to hear what the batting coach has to say about the players and the issues they are trying to work through. Hopefully, just as they can all slump together, they can all get hot together and at least makes this season less embarrassing. I am not asking for the playoffs at this point.

    • greenmtred

      The guys available–not on the DL–are mostly not very good hitters and never have been. I can’t see them being much better regardless of who the hitting coach is. Even with all hands on deck and healthy, the Reds did not look like a great hitting team. My hope was that they would hit enough, along with excellent pitching and defense, to be competitive. Still might happen.

    • sultanofswaff

      Not that there’s much to defend about the offense last night, but I will point out that early in the game Hamilton, Frazier, and Ludwick all got screwed by the umpire on ridiculous calls. That set the tone for the whole night IMO—-gives a pitcher confidence, hitters have no frame of reference, changes the complexion of the game entirely. I’m really ticked that Price doesn’t defend his hitters more. You think the WLB’s would take that sitting down?

  32. big5ed

    I hope Price has enough sense to start every lefty or switch-hitter on the team, x-Mesoraco, tonight against Arroyo.

  33. RiverCity Redleg

    According to Price held a team meeting and said there will be changes. I suspect Shumaker and/or Lutz will get a couple of starts. Most likely tonight vs Bronson.

    • ohiojimw

      I think Bryan Price waited a long time for this opportunity; and, I don’t think he is going to go down quietly.
      He publicly called out Votto to force that situation to a head and now he has publicly put his all players on notice that their offensive performance is “less than acceptable”. If he uses the bench guys; and, I they don’t do better, I suspect he won’t back away from publicly saying he has done all he can do with what he has to work with and that it is up to the front office to get him better players or accept what is happening on the field.

  34. gus0341

    Is there any thought on the hitting coach? Does he have anything to do with this at all or not really much of an influence?

    • ToddAlmighty

      I think regardless of the blacksmith, if you give them pigiron, it won’t be a high quality product. Not ready to blame it on the hitting coach. Frazier and Mesoraco are having career years. It’s just they everyone else is either hurt, not very good, or just playing lifeless. Doesn’t sound like a hitting coach job.

      Though I would like to talk to him about why the Reds look so awful bunting.

      • Robby20

        Said it earlier in this thread but it is worth repeating. This team was awful at the end of last season. They crawled to the finish line and were embarrassed in Pittsburgh. To address that the team let Choo walk, (really no choice), handed the lead-off spot in the order to a player not ready to fill that role, stayed with a left fielder who is past his prime, kept a second baseman in decline who blasted the owner and verbally abused a local reporter and fired Dusty Baker. Does that sound like a team addressing issues and trying to win it all?.Add to that a rash of injuries and you have what you have, a team that isn’t good enough to return to the postseason. This isn’t shocking.

        And this isn’t a one year problem. There is no talent in the system and the budget won’t allow the Reds to both keep the players worth keeping and add new talent.

      • ohiojimw

        Does anybody else think that in retrospect, Stubbs and Gregorious were a high price to pay for a year of Choo regardless of how well Choo played for the Reds (and his perceived value (by many folks) somewhat overlooks his negative impact on the Reds outfield defense)?

        I think perhaps Walt thought he was back in 1990’s or early 2000’s was going to lock down Choo like he did some guys he brought to the Cards on short control contracts.

      • Shchi Cossack

        I think the price was high but justified in the context of obtaining the one, glaringly missing, piece needed to make a deep post-season run. The Reds obtained the BEST! leadoff hitter available. That should have cememnted a deep playoff run but the opportunity was squandered.

  35. ohiojimw

    A crucial part of the job of the hitting coach is to take the fall for the players and management when the players are unable to get the job done 🙂

  36. Reed Tom

    The inability of the Reds to trade Brandon Phillips in the off-season and the absence of his usual smiling face has contributed to the funk the Reds are in after two months of the season. Pena has been a positive, but he can only do so much. At this point the Reds, in general, are a team without an offensive leader.

    • ChrisInVenice

      I actually haven’t noticed a difference in BPs demeanor.

  37. Robert Meyer (@Vandy1Fan)

    Today’s lineup for your amusement – The parenthesis value is the side they swing from
    Hamilton – 8 (B)
    Schumaker – 4 (L)
    Frazier – 5 (R)
    Pena – 3 (B)
    Mesoraco – 2 (R)
    Bruce – 9 (L)
    Lutz – 7 (L)
    Santiago – 6 (B)

    This gives you 6 lefties.

    Or you could go with –
    Hamilton – 8 (B)
    Schumaker – 4 (L)
    Frazier – 5 (R)
    Bruce – 9 (B)
    Pena – 2 (L)
    Lutz – 3 (L)
    Bernadina – 7 (L)
    Santiago – 6 (B)

    This would give you 7 lefties against Bronson.

    • ToddAlmighty

      I think even if you put Bernadina in there, you’d still really only have 6 left handed “batters”. Lol

      • ToddAlmighty

        Or 5, depending on how you view Bruce right now.

  38. enigma

    I keep hearing people defending Price on the platform of him not bein able to control but so much. Where were these people when Dusty was manager??

    What we’re seeing now is more or less what we’ve seen since 2010. A pathetic offense that can’t hit another team’s #3, led alone their ace. This is a Jocketty problem, and I’ve been saying this for four seasons running.

    • big5ed

      I was the lone poster in your corner on this. Dusty’s problem was that his offense was lousy. He said things that people misinterpreted, because he couldn’t very well say, “The organization isn’t producing any offense; the GM is lousy at drafting and development; and none of my right-handed hitters can hit right-handed pitching.”

      It doesn’t appear to be Brook Jacoby’s fault, either.

      The two things that have gone right offensively are (1) Mesoraco should be a very good hitter. (Now move him to left because he’s a liability behind the plate.), (2) Frazier has reined in his earlier tendency to fish for the low/outside slider.

      This season was doomed when they couldn’t unload Jocketty’s stupid Brandon Phillips contract.

      • greenmtred

        Well, for what it’s worth, I was in the same corner as you guys. You could look it up, I guess.

  39. Josh Mohr

    Walt needs to make changes: Every trade we have made, minus Latos has backfired.

    Encarnacion, Wood and Torreyes, Stubbs and Gregorius, we lost patience with Burton and Masset.

    Trade Marshall, Ludwick, Broxton, Phillips, Cueto, Chapman, SELL. Get young and cost controlled talent.

    Until the Reds draft/develop/sign a RH POWER HITTING LF, we will not reach out potential. We desperately need a Stanton/Springer/Puig type of player.

    • big5ed

      The RH power-hitting LF is Mesoraco. They Reds, however, want his bat in the lineup 4 times a week instead of 7.

      Everybody wants a Stanton/Springer/Puig type of player. The Reds, instead, develop Cozart and overpay Ludwick and Phillps.

      • Drew

        Why is everyone wanting to push Mesoraco into LF? If we do that and then who catches? And don’t say Barnhart cause as soon as he comes up and goes a few weeks hitting under .200 people will be screaming to put Devin back there. Leave Devin where he is comfortable and go get a true LF if we need to.

    • Dennis

      How did the Stubbs/Gregorius trade backfire? That brought us Choo, and he had his best offensive year ever with the Reds, leading them to the play-in game.

      • greenmtred

        Yeah, but they didn’t win the play-in game. The expectation was for a deep run, and it didn’t happen, so people are now questioning the trade. They could have gone home early without Choo, is the thinking, and it’s not entirely wrong. But nothing ventured etc.

    • Matt WI

      Drew Stubbs will not still be OPSsing .863 in September. Good for him for having a good start, but let’s not forget how below average he was an will likely fall back to being. Choo was the man, and without him, they likely don’t even sniff 90 wins… so would we be happy being an out of playoff team with Stubbs? And how knows how much Coors Field is playing into him right now.

      Encarnacion has been great for Toronto… fair enough. But he wasn’t going to keep playing 3rd, and he wasn’t going to play 1st. American league has a leg up on players like him with the DH.

      Wood was surplus. If it wasn’t him at the time, it would have probably been Leake.

      Burton and Masset were DL guys for significant periods of time and probably will be again. In that sense, that Reds got the best anyone will probably get out of them.

  40. Shchi Cossack

    So Bryan has reached the point of being fed up with the lack of performance? Realistically, loyalty to the players is a good quality in a manager and 2 months does not represent an overly long period of time in a relative context, especially for a 1st time, rookie manager. Dusty had years and still remained stoically loyal to the end. Kudos to Bryan for seeing the forest through those pesky trees. The problems now facing Bryan are available options for changes, unless he has the full support from WJ to make ALL the necessary changes and not just more shuffling of deck chairs.

    Roger Bernadina, 37 OPS+ (promote Felix Perez, OPS=.857, from AAA as LH utility OF)
    Ramon Santiago, 44 OPS+ (promote Kris Negron, OPS=.792, from AAA as utility IF)
    Logan Ondrusek, 5.63 ERA & 1.81 WHIP (promote Jumbo Diaz, 1.54 ERA & 0.99 WHIP, when available)

    Chris Heisey, 80 OPS+ (RH pinch hitter & utility OF)
    Ryan Ludwick, 79 OPS+ (RH pinch hitter)
    Skip Schumaker, 75 OPS+ (LH pinch hitter & utility OF/2B)
    Felix Perez, .857 OPS in AAA (LH pinch hitter & utility OF)
    Kris Negron, .792 OPS in AAA (utility IF/OF)
    Brayan Pena, 108 OPS+ (LH pinch hitter & utility C/1B/3B)

    Ryan Ludwick DFA (defensive liability & nothing left in the tank offensively)

    CF Hamilton, 72 OPS+, improve by end of June or optioned to AAA.
    3B Todd Frazier, 122 OPS+
    1B Brayan Pena, 108 OPS+
    C Devon Mesoraco, 180 OPS+, starts against EVERY! LHP
    RF Jay Bruce, 75 OPS+, if Bruce is not 100% healthy the DL him.
    2B Brandon Phillips, 89 OPS+, rest at least 1X per week
    LF Donald Lutz, 1.061 OPS in AA/AAA/MAJORS
    SS Zack Cozart, 51 OPS+, Negron is waiting if hitting doesn’t improve

    CF Hamilton, 72 OPS+, improve by end of June or optioned to AAA.
    1B Votto, 137 OPS+
    3B Todd Frazier, 122 OPS+
    C Devon Mesoraco, 180 OPS+, starts against EVERY! LHP.
    RF Jay Bruce, 75 OPS+, if Bruce is not 100% healthy the DL him.
    2B Brandon Phillips, 89 OPS+, rest at least 1X per week.
    LF Donald Lutz, 1.061 OPS in AA/AAA/MAJORS
    SS Zack Cozart, 51 OPS+, Negron is waiting if hitting doesn’t improve

    Do I expect Bryan to take such comprehensive an aggressive actions? Nope. Do I expect WJ to bite the bullet and make changes contrary to his off-season and prior decisions? Nope. Even minor changes will be welcome, but unless definitive and aggressive actions are taken, I think those actions will be perceived as soft and temporary, making any changes reinforcive of the poor performances. The players being promoted after the DFA moves may not produce any better performances than the players DFA’d, but the message would be loud and clear: Produce or be gone.

    • Drew

      Nice idea, however there is NO chance they DFA Ludwhick. The other changes I could see, but Ryan is Walt’s boy and he will ride with him till the end of the contract.

      • Vicferrari

        I have no problem with Ludwick get playing time, in the end Lutz has similar stats in AA the past few seasons that he currently has, I think he will turn it around to maybe .260/.330/..450- but I would like to at least see Lutz get a chance at least against RHP- why have him up here when he could be getting PT in AAA?


    Kris Negron. Haven’t heard that name in a while. This discussion reminds me of the scene early in Major League when they are discussing who to invite to camp. “This guy’s dead!” “Well, cross him off the list.”

  42. concepcion13

    Presenting your starting 1B for tonight’s game: Roger Bernardina. Never played an inning of 1B in his major league career, And no Lutz in the lineup. SMH.

  43. concepcion13

    Oh, and Meso is hitting 7th, sandwiched between Bernardina and Santiago. Ugh.

    • jcredlegs

      Bryan Price doesn’t have the first clue about managing a team. This team stinks because the manager stinks. I’ve said it all year. He is 90% of the problem. And we’re stuck because Bob C. is not going to eat another managerial contract.

    • Vicferrari

      I am not so concerned about the line-up but just the fact that Bernadina and Santiago are in it when you could have Lutz and Pena facing a PH Bronson, if you are going to try something radical Phillips at SS, DFA Bernadina bring up Gotay decent AAA stats (.845 OPS) MLB experience at 2B and 3B

  44. Shchi Cossack

    So Bryan has made is dramatic, game-changing, message delivery moves…

    CF Hamilton
    LF Schumaker
    2B Phillips
    RF Bruce
    3BFrazier 5
    1B Bernadina
    C Mesoraco
    SS Santiago
    P Leake

    Bryan SITS Brayan Pena (108 OPS+), one of the few hitters who is actually hitting in favor of powerhouse Roger Bernadina (37 OPS+) who has never played 1B professionally. Bryan’s other significant move is to replace light-hitting, strong-fielding Zack Cozart (51 OPS+) with lighter-hitting, weaker-fielding Ramon Santiago (44 OPS+).

    Somebody prop up the Old Cossack, because I am feeling all warm & gooey inside.

    • jcredlegs

      He’s the least intelligent smart guy I’ve ever seen. Accountability my a**.

    • charlottencredsfan

      Cossack, I really don’t understand the Lutz situation. As bad as this team has been scoring runs, the kid gets one start against Greinke and goes 2 for 3. Maybe you and I just don’t understand baseball very well.

      Every game, I’m praying Hamilton will get a night off. He is not the same player who went 50 PAs without a K. Good news is, I know that player exists he just has to find where he misplaced him. Jay could use a game or two off as well. Really felt bad for him last night when they showed him in the dugout, late in the game. Obviously disgusted, his body is unable to do what his mind is telling it right now.

      • Vicferrari

        Why bring up Lutz to begin with if he is not going to start against RH? The personnel moves and the injured handling is very poor.

    • vared

      The guy “DFA”ed a few weeks ago now starts at a critical time over not one but TWO candidates at first base. I give up. Well, not really, but I would if I wasn’t addicted.

      • lwblogger2

        I will break my moratorium to also point out that the guy in question is also playing out of position over those two better options. I haven’t missed watching, listening, or following a game on Gamecast so far this year. That streak will end tonight.

      • Vicferrari

        I am a point that this is so bad that I suspect it is a misprint. what Reds fan could possibly want to see Bernadina in place of anybody else.

    • ChrisInVenice

      My only explanation (& it’s a weak one) is perhaps he is throwing Bernardina a Hail Mary before DFAing him???

      • Vicferrari

        That is what April was for, that is what bringing him back after DFAing him the first time, if the Reds were hurting for OF’s I possibly could understand, but he is 7th Ofer on my depth chart and the 4th 1B, might as well start Mes there if you are getting this desperate. Play Shumaker at 2b and Phillips at SS

    • Michael J Hampton

      Barring injuries or illness we don’t know about, this is, to use Price’s own words, “unacceptable”. I’ve never in my life lost faith in a manager/coach this quick. Heck, I hung in with Billy Gillespie at Kentucky for over a year before I gave up on him.

    • Michael J Hampton

      We may pull out a win tonight, stranger things have happened, and Price may appear to be vindicated. But there is no exceptable excuse other than illness or injury for this travesty of a lineup considering the current state of the Reds and who is available to play. If we win it will be in spite of Price’s poor judgement not because of it. I’m not sure who he is trying to send a message to or what he is trying to say.

      • Michael J Hampton

        If Price is sending a message, I don’t get it. Pena has been one of the bright spots, he’s provided some spark. Lutz hasn’t been given a chance other than the one game. He hit the ball hard, he played hard, broke up a double play, ran hard and scored from second on that shallow hit. Who is Price sending a message to? I’ve vented enough, I’m outta here, good luck Reds!

    • Vicferrari

      I have been a supporter of Price and feel he had done a great job at avoiding the losing streaks. I started losing faith that this team stinks despite his good moves around the SD series. They really failed at not gaining ground that series and the Phillies series, then the Colorado 15 marathon made me believe and the lashing he gave them 2 games later and opening with the win against the Cards brought me back. I see nothing that builds on that, but to play the one person he could DFA for not being accountable to make some much needed room on the 40 man roster for some change is bizarre. Why not starting Lutz is bizarre, why not start Pena who seems to show some life out there. btw I like the tagging up play, took a strong on-line throw to get him

  45. ChrisInVenice

    I apologize to everyone. This tailspin happened because I finally gave in & bought premium package.

  46. charlottencredsfan

    I’m sure he was never seriously considered by the Reds but Bobby Abreu’s line with Mets: .286/.367/.452. If they insist on only plying the older guys, Bobby could have been an option. Warning: I don’t know what they are paying him.

    • charlottencredsfan

      I looked it up and it is $800K. My post was a bit misleading in that these numbers are the results of less than 100 PAs. I was really just poking fun at the Reds for sticking with Ludwick over Lutz. Sorry if I mislead you.

      As far as salaries go, I’m laying off discussing them in the name of comity. I like the posters here to a man but I can get a little too worked on some things.

  47. Eric the Red

    I like Price, but this lineup is a head scratcher. Still, here’s my best try at explaining why Lutz might sit–assuming he’s not sick/hurt, which is the easiest explanation: Arroyo is a wizard, who throws crazy and confounding breaking stuff. That’s not a good matchup for Lutz (or Heisey). He wants Bernadina’s 7/10 vs Arroyo in the lineup, and Pena probably needs a breather, so we get Bernadina at 1st. Lutz plays 1st the next 2 days, when Pena catches Cueto and when Arizona throws Miley, a LHP

    That’s all I got.

    • charlottencredsfan

      Nice point: 7 of 10 makes sense. Obviously a very small sample but I would probably do the same thing, given the degree of Roger’s success. Good research.