Cincinnati Reds sports columnist Paul Daugherty reported yesterday that he’d heard the Reds turned down a straight-up offer of Phillies CF/OF Shane Victorino for relief pitcher Logan Ondrusek.

One Reds insider said a straight-up Ondrusek-for-Victorino deal was nixed by The Club. Would you have done that? Me, too. In less than a heartbeat. You have a chance to win something, you win it. Victorino is having a down year, but he’s a good player who could bat either first or second. Maybe a scenery change would ignite him. He’s also a decent outfielder.

This item was way at the bottom of a long post Daugherty filed from Cooperstown covering Barry Larkin’s ceremony. It wasn’t even the start of a paragraph in the piece.

John Fay discussed it briefly with Marty on the radio broadcast last night and both agreed the trade would have made sense for the Reds. Fay expressed doubt that the trade was offered that way, because he thought the Reds would have accepted it. He speculated that maybe another prospect might have been involved.

On the substance of the trade, Fay also pointed out that JJ Hoover and Nick Masset are credible alternatives to Ondrusek. I’d add that Sam LeCure and Alfredo Simon have also been solid from the right side. Set-up relievers are not dime-a-dozen, but they aren’t exactly scarce, either.

On the other hand, Victorino would be a two month rental (plus playoffs) and Ondrusek is under team control through 2016. And Dusty Baker seems to love Ondrusek, so if he has any influence over the internal discussions, he might have been against it.

What say you Nation, should the Reds have accepted this trade if it was offered?

 

Steve grew up in Cincinnati as a die-hard fan of Sparky’s Big Red Machine. After 25 years living outside of Ohio, mostly in Ann Arbor, he returned to the Queen City in 2004. He has resumed a first-person love affair with the Cincinnati Reds and is a season ticket holder at Great American Ball Park. The only place to find Steve’s thoughts of more than 140 characters is Redleg Nation. Follow his tweets @spmancuso.

Join the conversation! 67 Comments

  1. I would have done it, sent my plane to pick up Victorino, and had him in uniform faster than Drew Stubbs can strike out.

  2. Something doesn’t sound right. I just don’t know how we pass on that if it was offered straight up unless we were trying to get more in the deal because of the salary we’re taking on. But clearly anyone we trade for now is going to cost more than whatever players we’re trading away…that’s how it works. So I dont’ know why that would be a stumbling block. Hopefully there’s some more info coming.

    • Something doesn’t sound right. I just don’t know how we pass on that if it was offered straight up unless we were trying to get more in the deal because of the salary we’re taking on. But clearly anyone we trade for now is going to cost more than whatever players we’re trading away…that’s how it works. So I dont’ know why that would be a stumbling block. Hopefully there’s some more info coming.

      It’d cost about 3-4 million to pick up his salary for the last two months. It’s not my money, but I think that’s a good investment.

  3. Considering the Reds overvalue relievers (after all, Chapman will be in the pen very possibly for his entire career, and Jocketty could not answer whether a great starter or a great stopper is more valuable), plus Baker loves Ondrusek as was stated, this doesn’t surprise me. But if it’s true, then it does really make me unhappy.

  4. Victorino is making $9.5 million this year. The remaining salary would be about $3 million. That doesn’t seem like it would have been enough to get in the way of making the deal.

  5. Honestly, this may have to do with Dusty’s love for Drew Stubbs not Logan Ondrusek. Stubbs has shown signs of life recently but I think Victorino would be an upgrade and would also provide a solid bench player, in Stubbs.

    Something doesn’t add up but we will see. Maybe the Phils believe Ondrusek has “closer” potential so that may be the piece that appears to be missing from the equation.

  6. The more I think about it, the Reds bullpen situation mirrors the situation they had at 1B/C/SP in the offseason: too many guys of about the same ability at SP, so they traded surplus players to try to upgrade the rotation. It hasn’t worked out (Latos hasn’t been as good as hoped), but it was the right idea.

    If the Reds don’t trade out of the pen, they’ve got too much of a logjam.

    • The more I think about it, the Reds bullpen situation mirrors the situation they had at 1B/C/SP in the offseason: too many guys of about the same ability at SP, so they traded surplus players to try to upgrade the rotation.It hasn’t worked out (Latos hasn’t been as good as hoped), but it was the right idea.

      If the Reds don’t trade out of the pen, they’ve got too much of a logjam.

      The Latos trade was still a good one. I don’t think we really miss any of the guys given up and he hasn’t been lights out, but he’s still been pretty good and he’s very young.

      • The Latos trade was still a good one.I don’t think we really miss any of the guys given up and he hasn’t been lights out, but he’s still been pretty good and he’s very young.

        Just to clarify, I still like the trade; was just pointing out that Latos hasn’t had the kind of year anyone was expecting.

  7. If it really was a straight up 1-1 I would have done it in a second. Heck, I would have driven Ondrusek myself from Cincinnati to Philly.

  8. I think there has to be something to this we don’t know about. I don’t believe the offer was straight up for a second.

  9. Maybe Walt’s waiting to see what happens with Masset in the next week? It seems like Masset/Ondrusek are interchangeable at this point. I’m torn on who I would rather keep. Ondru has been more reliable (while scary) than Masset, but when Masset is “on” he’s much better. It may also play into the teams decision with Madsen. Assuming we keep both, 1 of them could be groomed as closer with Chapman to rotation and Marshall as the 8th inning lefty and Bray as the LOOGY. Would be a cheaper option than signing Madsen and trading for Victorino. I’m ok with no trade, considering the cost, difference in contractual control, and I still have hope that Stubbs will outperform Victorino over the next few years.

  10. @AnnapolisHoosier:

    I’ m with you.

  11. This is a very odd rumor. Victorino and Ondrusek are not even in the same weight class. A 31 year old 3 time GG, 2 time All Star, and a guy always in the MVP conversation doesn’t get traded for a relief pitcher not named Rivera. Victorino in his worst year in the majors is still a decent upgrade over Stubbs. I suppose the balance tips because of the length of the contracts: 2 months of Victorino for 3.5 years of Ondrusek. I’m not as jumpy as others here to make this deal, but I would be in favor.

  12. I don’t think any rent a player is worth a major league player. If you’re gonna trade for victorino, a minor leaguer or 2 will get it done. The Phils will realize that as it gets closer to the deadline. Anyone who junmps the gun will overpay and IMHO “the Sack” is overpaying for victorino. If you want to trade “The Sack”, package him with hoover or someone else and get span from the twinkies.

    • I don’t think any rent a player is worth a major league player. If you’re gonna trade for victorino, a minor leaguer or 2 will get it done. The Phils will realize that as it gets closer to the deadline. Anyone who junmps the gun will overpay and IMHO “the Sack” is overpaying for victorino. If you want to trade “The Sack”, package him with hoover or someone else and get span from the twinkies.

      You seriously must be joking. I mean, that’s a very general statement. Miguel Cairo is a major league player, for example.

  13. TC, when was visctoino in any MVP conversation???

  14. @RKReds: 2009 and 2011.

  15. Man for man, I can’t think I would have done it. First, who would sit in the OF. Stubbs? I can’t see Baker letting that happen. Bruce? Same thing. Ludwick? He’s swinging a hotter bat right now than most anyone on the team. Vic? Trading a key reliever for someone to sit the bench, then being at most a left handed bat off the bench, paying that much money? ISorry, but with the starting lineup as Baker has it right now, IMO it would have to be Stubbs to go in that trade. Now, package him with Logan and get something else from the Phillies, then possible. But, any man for man trade, I can’t help thinking it will be OF for OF, SS for SS, C for C, not a mix. Not unless we simply drop someone. Like, if we drop Bruce, Stubbs, or Ludwick, then I could see this trade happening. I don’t think we are going to drop those three, though. And, it wouldn’t make sense to me to bring in Vic, paying that much money, to be a bench player for the rest of the season.

  16. I’m sure I’ll be in the minority on this one, but I am not too upset that the Reds turned down a deal for Victorino (but like most, I think there was more to the story here). I’ve seen him a lot this year and he looks truly awful. Maybe a change of scenery would help but we need to keep in mind that we would be paying for his numbers over the next two months, not what he has already done. He just doesn’t look like the same type of player people are hoping he would be for this team.

    The Reds aren’t a franchise that needs to be going after rentals IMO. 3 million, a very good reliever, and more than likely a prospect for 2 months of possibly mediocre numbers? Why? The Reds should look elsewhere if they really want to fill the CF spot. If you are going to give up value, at least get good value in return (like they did with Latos). We gave up a lot, but at least Latos is a very good young pitcher with tons of upside and the ability to pitch well in the majors right now.

    As always, the mantra holds true: You get what you pay for.

  17. My first thought is, yes, I make that trade in a heartbeat. My second thought is, the Yankees kicked the tires on both Victorino and Span, and then they traded for a guy who’s having a much down-er year than Victorino. Why, I wonder? Just the notoriety?

  18. It is all about options. First, Victorino is hitting.324 in his last 10 games.

    If you deal Ondu straight up for him, what probably happens:
    1) Either Masset or Hoover replace Ondru
    2) At minimum, Victorino takes Pauls place on the 25
    3) If Victorino current steak holds than he replaces Stubbs in CF

    The only downside is Victorino is a “rental”. 2012 may be “the” year. There is no promises for 2013 and beyond. If this is the best available deal, I’d make it today. But that’s “if”. I’m still holding out hope for Span.

    But is Ondrusek all that given the Reds’ bullpen depth? Deal from strength to help out our weakest link? YES!!!!

  19. Is Victorino a significant upgrade over Stubbs? He’s got a slightly better OPS (.650 vs .700), but he’s older, a lot slower, more expensive, and leaving in two months.

    For that, you’re going to give up a very good setup guy who’s not even arbitration eligible until 2014?

    If you’re gonna give up a useful part for a 2-month rental, get one who’s good.

    • Is Victorino a significant upgrade over Stubbs? He’s got a slightly better OPS (.650 vs .700), but he’s older, a lot slower, more expensive, and leaving in two months.

      For that, you’re going to give up a very good setup guy who’s not even arbitration eligible until 2014?

      If you’re gonna give up a useful part for a 2-month rental, get one who’s good.

      The idea is Victorino reverts to form.

      Ondrusek is not a “very good” reliever, and never has been.

      • @Racine Red:

        The idea is Victorino reverts to form.
        Ondrusek is not a “very good” reliever, and never has been.

        What’s going to cause Victorino to suddenly revert to form? Magic? It’s wishful thinking that some other team’s retread, a guy they’re trying to dump, is suddenly gonna catch fire. Is he more valuable than Ondrusek over two months? Sure, but is 2 months of Victorino worth more than 2 years of Ondrusek. Not even close. If you’re going to make a deal, bring in someone who actually helps.

        And you’re dead wrong about Ondrusek. Look at his numbers compared to the rest of the league. He’s one of the top-15 or 20 relievers in the NL by most measures.

        • @Racine Red:

          What’s going to cause Victorino to suddenly revert to form?Magic?It’s wishful thinking that some other team’s retread, a guy they’re trying to dump, is suddenly gonna catch fire.Is he more valuable than Ondrusek over two months? Sure, but is 2 months of Victorino worth more than 2 years of Ondrusek.Not even close.If you’re going to make a deal, bring in someone who actually helps.

          And you’re dead wrong about Ondrusek. Look at his numbers compared to the rest of the league. He’s one of the top-15 or 20 relievers in the NL by most measures.

          You know for a fact what this team has done with Stubbs, Ludwick, and Heisey all getting playing time in LF and CF – they’re 57-40. In a trade for Victorino the Reds would be gambling on him to return to form, but why make that gamble? What indication has he shown that he’ll get his OBP way back up? Why give up on Stubbs to gamble on Victorino? Doesn’t make sense to me…

  20. It’s been a long time since I believed anything that Paul Daugherty said, so my personal belief will be that they didn’t actually make an offer.

    It’s weird to be in buying mode, when for the last many many years, we’ve been in selling mode at the deadline. When in selling mode, we tended to come out on top, offloading big contracts for young cheap guys who will remain on the team for a while. I’m not sure how I like getting a rental like that.

  21. I don’t believe this.

    The Phillies would want more. They got two guys for Thome. They wouldn’t take one for Victorino. The Piratea would easily match that offer and raise it.

    This can’t be true.

  22. Man, I feel like Allan Iverson: “We’re talking about a middle reliever. A middle reliever.”

    • Man, I feel like Allan Iverson: “We’re talking about a middle reliever. A middle reliever.”

      LMFAO!

  23. I’m going too throw my hat in the “not-worth-it/we’re-missing-something-here” ring. We shouldn’t be spending 1M/month for a logjam in the outfield. And the outfielders aren’t so unservicable that we should panic.

  24. Can I remind people how it works in terms of acquiring middle relievers? Simon, who’s having a better season than Ondrusek by far, off of WAIVERS. Hoover, who pitched well for the Reds, in a trade for an almost completely useless player. Masset, as a throw in for Griffey when Griffey had zero value. Jose Arredondo, signed as a castoff free agent. These are pieces in a shutdown bullpen.

  25. Denard Span of the Twins is who the reds should go after if they want a new Center Fielder and Lead off hitter. They need a another left handed bat and they can get a true leadoff hitter.

  26. Larry, I agree. Living in PA, I see alot of Victorino. He is not a major upgrade over Stubbs. Even for just a middle reliever (who is pretty darn good). Span is not just a rental. Victorino looks very tired this year and, as one of my Phillies friends has said, has played like a knucklehead.

    And if you hold out, Victorino will be had for prospects.

  27. @Racine Red: The Reds are darn lucky to have the shutdown bullpen they have, given how they got these guys. The fact is, relievers’ performances vary a lot from year to year, and are hard to predict. It’s not that you can just go out and get a lights out reliever for nothing. It’s that you can go out and get a reliever for nothing, and he might prove to be lights out. And then he might not be the next year.

    • @Racine Red: The Reds are darn lucky to have the shutdown bullpen they have, given how they got these guys.The fact is, relievers’ performances vary a lot from year to year, and are hard to predict.It’s not that you can just go out and get a lights out reliever for nothing.It’s that you can go out and get a reliever for nothing, and he might prove to be lights out.And then he might not be the next year.

      Yes, I understand that. But at what other position do you commonly (not all the time, not even most of the time, but still commonly) get guys off of waivers/scrap heap and they do their job really well? Do you find starting pitchers that way commonly? Shortstops?

      There’s two reasons to deal Ondursek: (1) he’s not good, (2) he’s a middle reliever.

  28. @CharlotteNCRedsFan: Yes… I think in my mind this trade would happen and Victorino becomes Stubbs, Stubbs become Paul. Take the winter to decide if Stubbs is still going to be the CF or consider your other options at that time.

  29. @Racine Red: You’re completely right. Reliever is the single biggest crap-shoot in baseball player acquisition, and that’s a good reason to sell high on a guy like Ondrusek. I’m not really arguing for or against the trade. Honestly, I’m torn about it, and, like others have said, I doubt that a one-for-one was ever on the table.

  30. Considering all the crazy stuff most teams are asking for their players, I have a hard time believing Ondrusek for Victorino straight up was ll there was to it.

  31. I probably would have done the trade straight up for that, but I doubt that was the actual trade proposal. Fist, reports coming out of Philly is that they aren’t even selling, and are focused on resigning Hamels. Also, I’m sure they wanted something else other than Ondrusek, likely mid-level prospect. And yes, Victorino may be better than Stubbs, but I’m not sure if the improvement is much better. Yes, Stubbs has been horrible, but he’s exiting a slump now and should be decent for the next few weeks. He’s not going to bat .210 all the time, and I expect about a .250 hitter the rest of the way. Not great, but decent and something we can live with once Joey gets back.

    • I probably would have done the trade straight up for that, but I doubt that was the actual trade proposal. Fist, reports coming out of Philly is that they aren’t even selling, and are focused on resigning Hamels. Also, I’m sure they wanted something else other than Ondrusek, likely mid-level prospect. And yes, Victorino may be better than Stubbs, but I’m not sure if the improvement is much better. Yes, Stubbs has been horrible, but he’s exiting a slump now and should be decent for the next few weeks. He’s not going to bat .210 all the time, and I expect about a .250 hitter the rest of the way. Not great, but decent and something we can live with once Joey gets back.

      @MikiLove: It’s not Victorino vs. Stubbs, it’s Victorino replacing Xavier Paul. How much better is Ondru than Masset or Hoover? How much would the RHP bullpen suffer if you replaced: Arrendondo, Ondru, Simon, & LeCure with Arrendondo, Simon, Masset or Hoover, and LeCure. How much of an upgrade is Victorino from Paul?

      Come on people focus here. Reds have a “real” opportunity to do something this year and you are comfortable with Paul as our left-handed pinch-hitter? Oh, my!

  32. Forget Victorino. If they’re going to do it, package Ondrusek and whatever else it takes and get Pence instead.

  33. Here is a completely crazy thought that I know would never happen, but….

    How would you feel about trading for Hunter Pence, Hanley Ramirez and Denard Span?

    Yes, I said AND, not or.

    Reportedly, the asking price for Hanley and Pence is not very high since both teams are actively looking to move them. Then there is Span, whose asking price IS supposed to be high…. But I think the Reds can pull it off.

    If the Reds could trade some combination of Stubbs, Ondrusek, Cozart, Stephenson, Didi, Soto, and some other spare parts to make all of these trades happen, could you imagine this lineup?

    CF Span
    SS Ramirez
    1B Votto
    LF Pence
    RF Bruce
    2B Phillips
    3B Frazier
    C Hanigan

    I mean, just look at that lineup. It’s basically an All-Star lineup. I know the Reds would have to take on a decent chunk of salary to make it happen, but seriously, that offense would be unstoppable putting those 3 new guys in GABP. There is basically no break for the opposing pitcher; he’d have to pitch every single guy carefully, which of course with that pressure would lead to more pitching mistakes. The Reds would have a very good shot at going deep into the playoffs.

    Don’t get me wrong, I like Cozart, but I don’t see him ever being as good as Hanley Ramirez.
    The other two players I think are obvious upgrades. Then you still have a bench of Ludwick, Heisey, Mesoraco, Valdez, and Cairo. Suddenly the Reds bench doesn’t look so bad.

    But, yeah, there’s the money thing…. Ramirez is 15 million a year, Pence is 10 million, and Span is 5 million. That means the Reds would be well over 100 million, and I don’t see that happening anytime soon. Still fun to dream….

  34. @CI3J: You are suggesting replacing 3/8 of the line-up with a team that is 15 games over .500, in July? Ugh!

    • @CI3J: You are suggesting replacing 3/8 of the line-up with a team that is 15 games over .500, in July? Ugh!

      So you don’t think all 3 of those pieces would be upgrades?

  35. @gberry: Pence doesn’t play CF he is a RF from birth. Trade Bruce in a package for him? Have I walked into an episode of the Twilight Zone?

  36. @CI3J: Okay, okay how about: Stubbs & Votto for say Trout & Albert. Let’s have a serious discussion of things that “could” possibly happen. Boy oh boy!

    • @CI3J: Okay, okay how about: Stubbs & Votto for say Trout & Albert.Let’s have a serious discussion of things that “could” possibly happen.Boy oh boy!

      I would not trade Votto for anyone.

      Stubbs for Trout would never happen.

      The trades I suggested COULD happen if, by some miracle, the Reds were willing to up the salary by a lot.

      Pence and Hanley can be had without too much struggle, according to sources. Span’s asking price is reportedly high, but the Reds could pull it off if they wanted to.

      Like I said, trade Stubbs, Ondru, Stephenson, Didi, Cozart, and a few spare pieces, and you could have all 3 of those guys.

  37. @CharlotteNCRedsFan: Stubbs is the proper comparison. He’s the one getting the ABs that Victorino will be taking, so it’s his performance that is relevent. Unless you want to trade a decent MLB reliever for a guy who sits the bench.

  38. @CI3J: I don’t like that trade proposal. I love Hunter Pence but I don’t see how a sub-.800 OPS guy, who hits RH and is a free-agent next year helps the Reds much when they have Jay Bruce in RF who is simply a better player. I agree that Span would be an upgrade over Stubbs but I think it would take a pretty nice package to get him I think. Then there is Ramirez who is battling an infection in his hand, has questionable ‘makeup’, and has never been known as a clubhouse gem. Plus he makes a lot of money this year and is due $15.5-million next year and $16-million in 2014. He also hasn’t played SS this year. Then there’s the fact that when you replace 3/8 of your lineup, you are bound to change team chemistry… There’s just no way I’d do something so drastic while sitting atop the NL Central with 2 months to go and a team that is built to compete in 2013, 2014 and beyond.

  39. As for the original Victorino for Ondrusek proposal, I’d do it becuase I think it would make the team better. I think JJ Hoover would slot in the bullpen just fine and you still have Masset for depth… Like others, I’m doubting the deal was straight up. Also with Stubbs seemingly coming out of his giant slump and if Victorino doesn’t produce much better than he has so far, it isn’t a giant upgrade for $3-million.

  40. @CI3J: The only concern would be finding a place for Hanley to play and also getting him motivated. He is not a SS anymore and hardly plays an adequate third. If Dusty can light a fire under him, then I wouldn’t mind because he is incredibly talented.

    I Share the same sentiment in the fact that I will sorely disappointed if the Reds do not do anything. Walt has had sufficient time to find a lead-off hitter/cleanup and has failed. If he tries to pickup Juan Pierre and tries to sell that as an effort to win, I think he needs to find a new place. This team is so darn close to being great, and I don’t think Jocketty has the guts to make the winning move.

    • He is not a SS anymore

      Isn’t that only because Reyes is the SS? I don’t think it was because Hanley couldn’t play there anymore, just that Reyes didn’t have another position. However, I’ll cop to not following him closely enough to know if he’s not slick at SS.

      • Isn’t that only because Reyes is the SS? I don’t think it was because Hanley couldn’t play there anymore, just that Reyes didn’t have another position. However, I’ll cop to not following him closely enough to know if he’s not slick at SS.

        Hanley Ramirez was always below average with the glove, and he hasn’t been any better playing 3B in Miami this year. His bat has disappeared — he’s hitting .243 since the start of last season. In addition to his lousy glove and weak bat, he’s got two years left on his contract at $15m per… you couldn’t pay me to take him.

  41. At this point I think our only real need is a good LH bat off the bench. Kotsay is perfect and would probably be very cheap. 3 weeks ago I’d say we needed a bat in LF and a leadoff man, but with Ludwick coming on he can fit int he 4 spot and BP can go back to leading off where he belongs. Solidify the bench and this team is fine. I wouldn’t trade any prospects for a regular position player. Victorino for Ondrusek would have been fine because Ondrusek plays a relatively small role on this team as it stands and can easily be replaced by Hoover and then Masset. I could care less what you do with Stubbs for the rest of the season. Send him to Lousiville to see if he can figure out how to get on base for all I care, then bring him back up in October to be a pinch runner. But overall I feel much more confident in this roster now than I did a month ago. Ludwick was the key. If you can cheaply upgrade Stubbs then i’m all for it, but I don’t think we shoudl be desperate to find “a leadoff guy” or “a cleanup guy” because those guys are already here if we can just start using them the right way.

  42. We also keep acting like all of these players aren’t good by throwing out certain stats by Victorino, Pence, Span, etc. Compared to some of the everyday players, these would be significant upgrades.

    The 1 and 2 hitters have lines of .245/.292/.399/.692 (ZC) and .220/.289/.355/.644 (DS)
    Rolen has .210/.276/.357/.633. The catchers aren’t that great either.

    I realize the Reds are in the midst of a great streak right now so I will probably get dogged, but this offense is flawed and will be exposed in the playoffs if they reach that far.

  43. @nelly33: A lot of the offensive problems have been on Dusty. I simply do not understand this persistence he has to bat Stubbs and Cozart 1-2. It hasn’t worked all season. It’s almost August and the numbers are GLARING. It’s one reason I like the idea of bringing in Victorino because I think it would mean either trading Stubbs for prospects or sending him down, taking the decision out of Dusty’s hands. I don’t know what it will take for Dusty to make a change at this point but it might be a front office move. For the life of me I don’t understand why reporters aren’t asking him the question 10 times a day.

  44. The reaction I don’t get is “I’m torn whether I would do Ondrusek for Victorino, but the Phils had to be asking for more”. I would bet they did ask for more, but if you are torn but also think the Phils deserve more for Victorino, I don’t get it.

  45. My suggestion for a bench player on the end of the game thread a couple days back was to try and get Greg Dobbs from the Marlins.

  46. The lineup tonight has Xavier Paul batting 6th. Ludwick is not starting.

    I’m sure the idea here is to get Paul a start to keep him sharp. But he’s exceedingly unlikely to be on the Reds roster 1 week from today. If Ludwick’s tired, play Heisey.

  47. @Racine Red: Batting ahead of Frazier, no less…And Cozart back in the leadoff spot where he’s played his worst baseball. What goes on inside Dusty Baker’s brain?

  48. @eric nyc: I think he is challenging his guys to overcome obstacles. 🙄 If we lose by a run or two tonight, a lot of folks are going to be Po’d.

  49. Good gracious this thread wandered. The more I think about it to more I’m glad the deal wasn’t done. I changed my mind because I wouldn’t want start disassemble the team’s strength for a marginal return. He wouldn’t replaced Stubbs. He’d replace Ludwick and Heisey. I resend my favorable vote.

  50. I’ve been hoping for months that the Reds would avoid Shane Victorino – he’s having a mediocre season and doesn’t provide much of an improvement, despite his big salary. I don’t think Victorino is any kind of leadoff solution – he’s another name to toss into a pool but he’s not been significantly more successful at reaching base than Cozart or Stubbs.

    Ondrusek, he is just one of several relievers. He can probably be replaced by JJ Hoover, Donnie Joseph, or eventually Nick Masset. On the other hand he’s a key part of this successful bullpen.

    Hitting Stubbs and Cozart hasn’t worked for the 57-40 Reds? I disagree, if you knew on opening day that Dusty sticking with those guys would provide a 57-40 record in the end of July you would probably be all for it. The #1 and #2 spots in the lineup have underperformed but the team with that #1 and #2 hitter has exceeded everybody’s expectations.

    Disassembling key parts of the team to gamble on another guy providing a slight improvement (like a ~.030 OBP improvement at the top of the lineup might seem wise – ANYTHING is better than ____ – but there’s no guarantee it’ll work out. A while ago they moved shortstop Felipe Lopez, OF Austin Kearns, and Ryan Wagner for Bill Bray, Gary Majewski, Royce Clayton, Brandon Harris, and Daryl Thompson – after all, it was just two key people in their lineup, and the season fell apart afterwards.

  51. I still hope the Reds can acquire David DeJesus. Lefty leadoff hitter, experience in both CF and LF, ~.355 OBP, reasonable contract through next season. Unlike guys like Pierre, Victorino, and Justin Upton he is an everyday solution for the leadoff dilemma who solidifies other guys’ lineup spots also (DeJesus is the leadoff hitter, not Phillips, no debate). He’s not old, washed up, overpaid, and he’s not a part time player or short term rental… but he is a respectable lefthanded leadoff hitter who is capable of getting on base while playing either LF or CF. Being under contract next season fits in with Billy Hamilton’s timetable. Seems like a perfect fit, if the Cubs make him available.

  52. Well, I told you the Reds could get Ramirez for basically nothing.

    Still think my trade ideas are far fetched? The only thing holding the Reds back is unwillingness to take on salary.

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About Steve Mancuso

Steve grew up in Cincinnati as a die-hard fan of Sparky's Big Red Machine. After 25 years living outside of Ohio, mostly in Ann Arbor, he returned to the Queen City in 2004. He has resumed a first-person love affair with the Cincinnati Reds and is a season ticket holder at Great American Ball Park. The only place to find Steve's thoughts of more than 140 characters is Redleg Nation. Follow his tweets @spmancuso.

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2012 Reds

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