2012 Reds / Titanic Struggle Recap

Titanic Struggle Recap: Life Without Votto

Let’s recap tonight’s titanic struggle….

FINAL
Arizona 5
Cincinnati 3

W: W. Miley (10-5)
L: B. Arroyo (4-6)
S: J. Putz (17)
BOX SCORE

POSITIVES
–Brandon Phillips had two hits, including a double, and an RBI. Drew Stubbs moved into the leadoff spot and reached base three times, plus he drove in two runs. Chris Heisey had two hits and scored a run.

–After Bronson Arroyo’s poor start, Alfredo Simon came in and shut the door for three innings. Nice relieve work. Jose Arredondo also pitched an excellent inning out of the bullpen.

NEGATIVES
–Bronson Arroyo put the Reds in a hole early, surrendering four runs in the first inning. In all, Arroyo lasted just three innings, allowing five runs on eight hits and a walk in three innings.

–Bill Bray pitched the worst scoreless inning in the history of baseball (more on that later), but what irritated me most was the nonchalant way he trotted to cover home after throwing a wild pitch. Bray got VERY lucky not to have been bitten in the butt by his lack of effort/attention.

NOT-SO-RANDOM THOUGHTS
–Six game winning streak snapped, but JOEY VOTTO IS HURT! PANIC!

–As you may have heard, Joey Votto has a tear in his meniscus, and he’ll have surgery tomorrow. Votto is expected to be out 3-4 weeks. Panic!

–No, don’t panic. But it is funny to me that Todd Frazier is now expected to fill in for the best hitter on the planet, when he wasn’t even good enough to make the Opening Day roster over Willie Harris or Wilson Valdez three months ago.

–More on Bray:

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–Someone explain this to me:

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I don’t get it. If you have a quarter-billion dollar investment, a guy who is the cornerstone of your offense and your playoff hopes…why wouldn’t you go ahead and get an MRI instead of waiting for him to ask for it?

As I always say, the Reds have more information than me, and I’m happy to believe that the guys in charge are smarter than me. But I just don’t understand this.

–There’s some talk that Henry Rodriguez may get called up, but I’m looking forward to seeing the world-wide Reds Fan meltdown if Willie Harris is called up to take Joey Votto’s roster spot.

–Miguel Cairo was ejected in the seventh inning after arguing a fair/foul call.

–Yep, this is what we’re going to find out:

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–Seriously, guys and gals, don’t panic. Reds will miss Votto, but if he’s only out three weeks, the Reds can manage in the meantime. This isn’t a good situation, but it isn’t the end of the world.

52 thoughts on “Titanic Struggle Recap: Life Without Votto

  1. More details as they become available. We’ll know more tomorrow. Insert cliche here. I say we bring back WTaveris.

  2. It’s already been said over and over. All that time, including the freaking AS game, without an MRI. I can’t think of a justification.

  3. Actually CoCo pitched an even worse scoreless inning to get a save against the Mets in one of the final games of last season. He walked the first 4 guys he faced, but 1 got caught stealing. Then a guy lined into a DP. The Reds only had a 1 run lead.

  4. You can tell Votto was hurt. He wasn’t the same. We’ve been winning most games with pitching and defense. Offense now needs to step it up and carry the team for a bit. We’ll see. Roster move tomorrow.

  5. This I guess is what it will take for them to bring up a lefty bat. Let’s hope it’s not Harris or Costanzo.

  6. Frazier looked good at 1st base, who’s this Votto person you speak of?➡😀😀

  7. Didn’t Doc Hollywood do this before with someone else? Not do a MRI on someone until a couple of weeks after an injury, then find a need for surgery. It seems really familiar to me.

  8. It was completely clear that Votto’s knee was hurt on the play on Saturday when he threw the guy out at the plate. He really couldn’t move very well.

    3-4 weeks the team should be able to handle. The real question to me is will he take time to come back fully.

    There can’t be any possible justification for the lack of an MRI, can there?

  9. Can someone estimate the damage from replacing Votto in the lineup with Scott Rolen—which is pretty much what they are doing.

    • Can someone estimate the damage from replacing Votto in the lineup with Scott Rolen—which is pretty much what they are doing.

      No, that’s what they SHOULD be doing, because Frazier should be starting most games. But, in reality, they’re replacing Votto with Frazier, which is not nearly as big a loss. It will be interesting to see if Frazier will go from being a part-time guy who hits 6th or 7th to the everyday #3 hitter. And, if so, it will also be interesting to wonder if that has ever happened in the history of baseball.

      • No, that’s what they SHOULD be doing, because Frazier should be starting most games. But, in reality, they’re replacing Votto with Frazier, which is not nearly as big a loss. It will be interesting to see if Frazier will go from being a part-time guy who hits 6th or 7th to the everyday #3 hitter. And, if so, it will also be interesting to wonder if that has ever happened in the history of baseball.

        It is pretty hilarious/sad. A part-time #6 to, when he plays, a #3. Bizarre.

        They are kind of replacing Votto with Rolen, if you look at the 6 week period of May 12-June 17 plus July 2-7.

  10. Not panicking, but if ever Jocketty needed to wake up from his nap and trade for some offense, it’s now.

  11. It HAS to be HRod, no? Cairo will spell Frazier and Rolen from time to time. Rolen can’t play every day, so you still need a viable third baseman. Problem is, Dusty will bury HRod on the bench, overplay Rolen, and accelerate his demise. This is gonna be an ugly 4 weeks for Rolen. If you thought he was exposed up to now, it’s about to get a whole lot worse….

    • It HAS to be HRod, no?Cairo will spell Frazier and Rolen from time to time.Rolen can’t play every day, so you still need a viable third baseman.Problem is, Dusty will bury HRod on the bench, overplay Rolen, and accelerate his demise.This is gonna be an ugly 4 weeks for Rolen.If you thought he was exposed up to now, it’s about to get a whole lot worse….

      IF they promote Henry Rodriguez there’s not yet any indication whatsoever of the amount of playing time either would get. Votto’s injury will probably only make the Reds more concerned about injuring Rolen also – I expect Rolen to play 3, 4, or maybe 5 games a week. Lets see how much HRod is used and how well he hits before determining how he was mis-managed.

  12. My first impulse is to be as angry about the “Votto situation” as most folks seem to be. However, I seem to remember reading somewhere that swelling can make an MRI unreadable. That could help to explain the delay.

    Still if he had swelling that bad, what was he doing playing in the interim, especially during the AS break.

    I guess it is always possible he aggravated the original injury in the last several days. It really doesn’t matter now. It is water under the bridge.

    Hopefully they will make a wise decision about who they bring or perhaps actually execute a meaningful trade.

    If the Snakes are in selling mode, what would it take to get Lyle Overbay? Drop him in at 1B which would leave Frazier free to play 3B and give them a real LH bat off the bench when JOey returns.

    • My first impulse is to be as angry about the “Votto situation” as most folks seem to be. However, I seem to remember reading somewhere that swelling can make an MRI unreadable. That could help to explain the delay.

      Still if he had swelling that bad, what was he doing playing in the interim, especially during the AS break.

      I guess it is always possible he aggravated the original injury in the last several days. It really doesn’t matter now. It is water under the bridge.

      Hopefully they will make a wise decision about who they bring or perhaps actually execute a meaningful trade.

      If the Snakes are in selling mode, what would it take to get Lyle Overbay? Drop him in at 1B which would leave Frazier free to play 3B and give them a real LH bat off the bench when JOey returns.

      I don’t see why the Reds should do anything, given that they are going to play Rolen over Frazier anyways. If you get Overbay, then you have Overbay at 1st and Rolen at 3rd. If you don’t, you have Frazier at 1st and Rolen at 3rd. It seems reasonably likely that Frazier outperforms Overbay in the next month.

      Now, if they were smart and valued Frazier over Rolen, maybe an Overbay trade makes sense.

    • My first impulse is to be as angry about the “Votto situation” as most folks seem to be. However, I seem to remember reading somewhere that swelling can make an MRI unreadable. That could help to explain the delay.

      Still if he had swelling that bad, what was he doing playing in the interim, especially during the AS break.

      I guess it is always possible he aggravated the original injury in the last several days. It really doesn’t matter now. It is water under the bridge.

      I think fans are getting the impression that Votto’s knee exploded a few weeks ago without anybody noticing while he, with the knee problem, thought it was just a minor issue that would go away if he was careful with it. Maybe he had his attention on doing everything he could to help the Reds sweep the Cardinals in the first series out of the All Star Break, with or without pain.

  13. Is there any circumstance that cannot be turned into Rolen bashing?

    Cataract surgery tomorrow. No posting allowed. See you Wednesday.

  14. @seat101: Good Luck on your surgery, my fixed eye reads close to 20/20 uncorrected. It has been 20+ years since that was the case.

  15. First pitch after a long rain delay…

    Pirates tie it up 4-4 with a 3R HR in the ninth.

  16. I think a lot of people are making some big assumptions about the performance of the medical staff without any information whatsoever, let alone a familiarity with knee injuries or Votto’s medical situation. I guess in the case of an injury SOMEBODY has to be targeted and the team doctor/medical staff are the most obvious targets. It seems like some fans are taking it really overboard…

    Maybe they should impose a new rule – MRIs whenever anybody doesn’t feel good. If the player says he’s okay or believes he is getting better, ignore him, call security to drag the former MVP in for testing. That’s the best way.

    Henry Rodriguez is likely to be called up but it’ll be interesting to see how he is received – a 22 year old switch hitting top prospect hitting .339 with a .372 OBP… or a 5’10 guy who nobody ever heard of whose arrival represents the end of the Reds’ 2012 season and future. He has 11 walks, 22 strikeouts, 3 steals, 3 homeruns, and 8 doubles in 186 ABs – it looks like he’s a contact hitter, something that we rarely see out of the Reds’ organization – but how poorly will he be received since he doesn’t hit homeruns OR steal bases?

    Recently Dusty said they had a plan on what to do with Todd Frazier and Scott Rolen, but he wouldn’t say what it was – it had to wait until the end of the important Reds-Cardinals series. I guess we now see part of the plan, with Frazier switching to 1b and Rolen playing 3b a few days a week. It adequately squashes all Frazier vs Rolen controversy until Votto’s return. Big Todd Frazier supporters should recognize that THIS is Frazier’s big chance to show what he can do playing everyday.

    Joey Votto has been in a big slump in the past few weeks and the Reds have done fine, mostly due to good pitching. Can the Reds survive three or four weeks without Joey Votto? I think they can. Todd Frazier is a downgrade offensively (and defensively) but they still have the pitching they need to beat the next bunch of teams they face.

  17. @redsfanman: I’m not nearly the Frazier fanatic most people are, but I’m sorry, Frazier had his big chance already when Rolen was out for 5 weeks earlier in the season. Frazier produced an .851 OPS. How is a 3 week stretch of playing now his big chance? How many times does the guy have to keep doing it before he’s deemed the starter over Rolen? Today, for example, Frazier hit a double. Rolen’s last double was 12 games ago.

    Are you also really saying that Baker’s “secret plan” was that Frazier was going to play for Votto? I suppose it’s possible, but you are assuming that Baker knew Votto was going to have surgery…and let him play 3 games?

    • @redsfanman: I’m not nearly the Frazier fanatic most people are, but I’m sorry, Frazier had his big chance already when Rolen was out for 5 weeks earlier in the season.Frazier produced an .851 OPS.How is a 3 week stretch of playing now his big chance?How many times does the guy have to keep doing it before he’s deemed the starter over Rolen?Today, for example, Frazier hit a double.Rolen’s last double was 12 games ago.

      Are you also really saying that Baker’s “secret plan” was that Frazier was going to play for Votto?I suppose it’s possible, but you are assuming that Baker knew Votto was going to have surgery…and let him play 3 games?

      What does Frazier have to do before he is ‘deemed the starter over Rolen?’ I think the priority for Frazier is getting playing time, not ‘being deemed the starter’ at a certain position. Frazier’s flexibility is part of his value to the team as he is capable of starting at almost every position. Rolen is the starter at 3b and Ludwick the starter in LF but neither are regulars who are playing all day everyday – for them being ‘deemed the starter’ just means that they’re not permitted to do anything else. Frazier has previously shown he belongs in the lineup almost everyday and this is another opportunity for him to continue to show it.

      I’m assuming that Dusty knew Joey Votto had lingering knee problems the organization had decided to worry about once the Cardinals were out of town. With the Cardinals series over Votto got more testing and Frazier replaced him in the lineup. They’ve made it clear in the past, like with Joey Votto’s ‘inner ear infection’, that they’re under no obligation to be straight with the fans (or media) about medical issues. I guess basically I’m saying that part of Todd Frazier’s value to the team is his ability to play 1b and LF – it’s unfortunate that that’s also seen as a negative by fans (ew, a UTILITY PLAYER).

      • What does Frazier have to do before he is ‘deemed the starter over Rolen?’I think the priority for Frazier is getting playing time, not ‘being deemed the starter’ at a certain position.Frazier’s flexibility is part of his value to the team as he is capable of starting at almost every position.Rolen is the starter at 3b and Ludwick the starter in LF but neither are regulars who are playing all day everyday – for them being ‘deemed the starter’ just means that they’re not permitted to do anything else.Frazier has previously shown he belongs in the lineup almost everyday and this is another opportunity for him to continue to show it.

        I’m assuming that Dusty knew Joey Votto had lingering knee problems the organization had decided to worry about once the Cardinals were out of town.With the Cardinals series over Votto got more testing and Frazier replaced him in the lineup.They’ve made it clear in the past, like with Joey Votto’s ‘inner ear infection’, that they’re under no obligation to be straight with the fans (or media) about medical issues.I guess basically I’m saying that part of Todd Frazier’s value to the team is his ability to play 1b and LF – it’s unfortunate that that’s also seen as a negative by fans (ew, a UTILITY PLAYER).

        Your previous post did not make clear that you believed Frazier had already shown that he should be playing every day. If so, then it is important who’s deemed the starter. Injuries aren’t that common, and if Rolen is deemed (stupidly) the starter, then things happen like Frazier sitting 3 out of 4 games. If Frazier were the starter, then he plays those games, and when Votto’s hurt, Frazier, being versatile, goes to first, and Rolen, the backup, plays 3rd. I see nothing negative about flexibility, but it is when the guy doesn’t see his name in the lineup.

        • Your previous post did not make clear that you believed Frazier had already shown that he should be playing every day.If so, then it is important who’s deemed the starter.Injuries aren’t that common, and if Rolen is deemed (stupidly) the starter, then things happen like Frazier sitting 3 out of 4 games.If Frazier were the starter, then he plays those games, and when Votto’s hurt, Frazier, being versatile, goes to first, and Rolen, the backup, plays 3rd.I see nothing negative about flexibility, but it is when the guy doesn’t see his name in the lineup.

          Rolen playing 3 or 4 games a week as the starter has NOT meant Frazier spending those 3 or 4 games a week on the bench in the past few months. It has meant that he’s started 2 or 3 games a week in LF, getting a fairly consistent number of ABs despite playing two positions. Frazier’s flexibility has kept him from being entrenched at one position but it hasn’t kept him from getting regular playing time.

          For months fans have wanted some speech by Dusty Baker saying something like “Todd Frazier is the starting 3b, we’ve given up on Scott Rolen” – I didn’t understand where that would have got them then or where it would get them now. If Frazier was the starting 3b he wouldn’t be switching to 1b or LF. What matters is that he’s getting regular playing time as a starting position player on the Cincinnati Reds.

        • Rolen playing 3 or 4 games a week as the starter has NOT meant Frazier spending those 3 or 4 games a week on the bench in the past few months.It has meant that he’s started 2 or 3 games a week in LF, getting a fairly consistent number of ABs despite playing two positions.Frazier’s flexibility has kept him from being entrenched at one position but it hasn’t kept him from getting regular playing time.

          For months fans have wanted some speech by Dusty Baker saying something like “Todd Frazier is the starting 3b, we’ve given up on Scott Rolen” – I didn’t understand where that would have got them then or where it would get them now.If Frazier was the starting 3b he wouldn’t be switching to 1b or LF.What matters is that he’s getting regular playing time as a starting position player on the Cincinnati Reds.

          I’m sorry, but what you are saying just isn’t true. Frazier has played all of 5 games in left field this year, so he has most certainly not played 2-3 games in LF per week when Rolen’s healthy. At this point, if Rolen is the starting 3B and Votto is healthy, given that Ludwick has won the LF job, Frazier is not playing. Do you really dispute that? Again, I’m saying “if” Rolen is the starting 3B. Frazier’s not going to get any time at 1B when Votto’s healthy (maybe what, 1 game per month max?), and Heisey’s going to get any game where Ludwick rests, with the possible exception of taking LF on a day where both Stubbs and Ludwick are rested. Rolen can’t play every day, but that’s going to leave about maybe 3 games per week for Frazier to play, max. Again, Frazier played 1 out of 4 games in the 4 game stretch where Lucwick, Rolen, Votto, and Frazier were all available.

          I don’t know where you get that anyone wants a speech. What I want is for Frazier to unconditionally be in the game every day. I don’t care if he plays 3B, 1B, LF, or on the moon. I don’t need a pronouncement, but if Frazier’s to play every day, it’s going to have to come almost exclusively at 3B. Once in a while maybe he’ll find himself at 1B or LF, but it’s not going to be often.

  18. @redsfanman: Actually, you are making just as big assumptions as people you say are making big assumptions. You are assuming the Reds allowed a guy with a known torn meniscus to play 3 games in July before surgery. Or, you’re saying Votto didn’t tell anyone even though he was really hurting.

    I think when a guy looks like Votto running around, and everyone says he’s having trouble running, etc, an MRI is not unreasonable to demand if you are paying his salary. It’s certainly possible that Votto didn’t tell anyone, but the team should have the right to demand an MRI.

    • @redsfanman: Actually, you are making just as big assumptions as people you say are making big assumptions.You are assuming the Reds allowed a guy with a known torn meniscus to play 3 games in July before surgery.Or, you’re saying Votto didn’t tell anyone even though he was really hurting.

      I think when a guy looks like Votto running around, and everyone says he’s having trouble running, etc, an MRI is not unreasonable to demand if you are paying his salary.It’s certainly possible that Votto didn’t tell anyone, but the team should have the right to demand an MRI.

      I don’t get the impression that Joey Votto was struck by “Wow, there went my meniscus, that’s something unique, something major just happened”. I assume he was in minor pain but thought he would get over it – eventually he realized that it wasn’t growing any better and went in for testing. He doesn’t come across as a very outgoing man, let alone one who would complain about what he perceives as minor problems.

      I agree that in general it’s not unreasonable to ask an athlete to have an MRI… but on the other hand confronting the former MVP, telling him that they don’t trust his own judgment and he’s getting tested to prove he’s messed up whether he likes it or not… I don’t get the impression that’s quite so simple. “You think you’re getting better? Yes? Well, we don’t believe you, you must be messed up, we pay you too much money”. Ehhhhh.

  19. @redsfanman: No one here knows what happened, we’re upset and venting. It’s possible, as Ohio Jim suggested, that Votto tore the meniscus subsequent to the original injury. Who knows, it may have happened in the Cardinal series. A possibly important comment by WJ was that “in the last few days it’s gotten worse.”

    But whatever may have happened, the AS break was an opportunity to get better or get tested. And Joey had a valid reason for skipping the AS game. Easy for me to say.

  20. After blowing the 3 run lead in the top of the 9th, the Rockies win it in the bottom of the 9th. Giambi got a big hit to set up a walk off SF. As far as a getting a LHed bench bat goes, his OBP as always is close to .400, but he has only 1 HR in 98 ABs. And is 41.

  21. Doubt Arizona deals away even so light an asset as Lyle Overbay given they are only 6.5 games back. Maybe later. He’d be a great replacement for Cairo.

    Q. How do teams in the playoff hunt fill short-term holes?
    A. Paul Janish.

    Think Mark Kotsay, Laynce Nix, Tyler Colvin. Ryan Doumit? Only if you think he can play the outfield come August 15 (I don’t). The bet here is the Reds find a name like this to take innings at 1B during Votto’s DL stint, allow the Frazier-Ludwick-Heisey-Rolen rotation dance to continue, then be that LH bat down the stretch.

  22. Even when Votto is slumping, he is a force with other teams plotting around to avoid him, and even Votto still making the pitcher work to get him out.

    I started to really criticize Dusty in my mind, and then realized the Reds just won 6 in a row! Maybe that negative mindset about Dusty is like a disease that can’t be avoided even when he should deserve some praise.

    We’ll see how they’ll do without Votto. I’m not so sure. I’d like to think they’ll be ok, but certainly not building a big lead in the division like we hoped I’d estimate.

    I guess as far as Dusty and this team. Stubbs and Cozart at the top of the lineup is the big bugaboo. Stubbs with 2 hits tonight which is nice.

    Are all of us fans really this out of touch though, or doesn’t it make sense to put Hannigan up in the 2 spot, or Heisey in the 1 or 2 spot when they play?

    Cozart might need some help at short before the the year is up too. He’s been struggling for awhile it seems to gain any consistency. I wonder if he is tired.

  23. As far as the schedule goes within the next 3 weeks, the biggest thing coming up would seem to be the series with the Pirates at home, August 3 thru August 5. The following 3 games at Milwaukee could be a problem without Joey if they’re still in it.

  24. @redsfanman: Point noted, but at least in the NFL, they get MRIs all the time. It’s never an issue, that I can remember. I would probably have gone to Votto and said, “you look really hobbled out there, are you willing to get an MRI”? If he says no, well, then it’s complicated.

    • @redsfanman: Point noted, but at least in the NFL, they get MRIs all the time.It’s never an issue, that I can remember.I would probably have gone to Votto and said, “you look really hobbled out there, are you willing to get an MRI”?If he says no, well, then it’s complicated.

      Joey Votto doesn’t play in the NFL – he’s a veteran, a former MVP, and the Reds’ star player, not a mediocre bench player or rookie who others push around. If he says no, he’s fine, he doesn’t need testing, at what point do you force him? I think it can get complicated, far more so than some fans are considering… especially when they call for the team doctor to be fired as a result of the team not conducting testing earlier. Oh well, sometimes players get injured, I just hope he can make a speedy recovery.

      • Joey Votto doesn’t play in the NFL – he’s a veteran, a former MVP, and the Reds’ star player, not a mediocre bench player or rookie who others push around.If he says no, he’s fine, he doesn’t need testing, at what point do you force him?I think it can get complicated, far more so than some fans are considering…especially when they call for the team doctor to be fired as a result of the team not conducting testing earlier.Oh well, sometimes players get injured, I just hope he can make a speedy recovery.

        I don’t care if he’s the King of Siam, he works for this team, they’ve signed him to a contract for a stadium full of money, they’re in the middle of a pennant race….he’s got a visible knee problem and they can’t have him take an hour to get an MRI? (And I believe there’s an MRI facility in the building, if not, I know there’s one right down the street at PBS.)

        As for Kremcheck, I can’t believe people are making excuses for this medical staff. They, time and again, mis or under diagnosis injuries, leaving the team playing short. I don’t believe the front office is making these decisions with no input from the medical staff. Remember, they originally called this “inflammation”…

        • @Bill Lack:

          I don’t care if he’s the King of Siam, he works for this team, they’ve signed him to a contract for a stadium full of money, they’re in the middle of a pennant race….he’s got a visible knee problem and they can’t have him take an hour to get an MRI? (And I believe there’s an MRI facility in the building, if not, I know there’s one right down the street at PBS.)As for Kremcheck, I can’t believe people are making excuses for this medical staff. They, time and again, mis or under diagnosis injuries, leaving the team playing short. I don’t believe the front office is making these decisions with no input from the medical staff. Remember, they originally called this “inflammation”…

          Exactly. Back in 2001 I believe, Griffey tore his hamstring in spring training. Doc K said it would be a few weeks. He returned in late June. Somewhere in between, Jim Bowden said that Doc had misdiagnosed the hamstring and the likes of Marty, Hal McCoy and others ran to the defense of Doc Hollywood and chastized Bowden. Maybe he shouldn’t have used that term, but he was right nonetheless. I can’t recall all of the incidents. We sure used to talk about them a lot on the Reds usenet group.

  25. Logan Ondrusek’s fastball was in the 94 to 98 range last nite, two of them at 98 and one at 97. PitchFX had his fastest pitch at 98.1. Why such a large difference in velocity from outing to outing ?

  26. @redsfanman: You’re right that calling for the team doctor to get fired is nuts. Kremcheck is one of the most highly respected doctors out there. Players on other teams have Kremcheck do surgery for them.

    FWIW, Dusty said early on that Votto is one player that he trusts on whether he’s OK for returning to the starting line up. The whole thing is surprising. As you say: Oh well, hopefully he’s back soon, and in the meantime the Reds have to win some games without him.

  27. I don’t even understand why there’s an argument. It was PAINFULLY obvious at least as far back as the San Diego series, if not the Dodgers series, that Joey was hurt. You didn’t have to ask Joey. you didn’t have to have a medical degree. Any schlub with a television watching the guy “run” out of the batters box could tell he was hurt. If the reason they didn’t get an MRI was because he didn’t ask and there was too much “reverence” to the MVP then that’s just a stupid stupid stupid way to run a professional sports franchise. There is an entier staff of trainers that sit in that dugout every night and their job is to watch every moment of every player, ESPECIALLY the MVP, and raise a red flag when something might be wrong. If my ignorant ass is sitting on the couche for the last 3 weeks saying “HEY LOOK! SOMETHING’S REALLY WRONG WITH JOEY’S KNEE!” then I dont’ know what those guys were doing when they were sitting 20 feet away from him getting paid to watch the exact same thing and also happen to be doctors who specialize in sports injuries. He should have had an MRI the day after the slide (he should also stop sliding because he’s not very good at it, but that’s another conversation). A knee MRI takes 45 minutes and I can not think of a way that it is insulting to ask a professional athlete to get a simple medical test. “Your knee is sore? Ok we’re going to do an MRI. The end.” They have one IN THE FREAKING BALLPARK. It’s literally walking ACROSS THE HALL and laying down for a half hour.

    I think it’s perfectly fair for fans to be outraged. I’ve been on the record for weeks that Joey shouldn’t have played in the ASG. We could have been without him for 1 or 2 series, now he’s going to be shelved for a month (it ain’t going to be 3 weeks, folks) and then will probably need 2-3 weeks to really get back up to speed. With the way we’ve been winning games, I don’t know if we can sustain that. “Don’t panic” is all well and good, but this could very well sink the season. It doesn’t help that the very first game into the Votto-less Era we have to watch The Return of Badrroyo. Strap yourselves in, it’s going to be a bumpy ride…

    • I don’t even understand why there’s an argument. It was PAINFULLY obvious at least as far back as the San Diego series, if not the Dodgers series, that Joey was hurt. You didn’t have to ask Joey. you didn’t have to have a medical degree. Any schlub with a television watching the guy “run” out of the batters box could tell he was hurt. If the reason they didn’t get an MRI was because he didn’t ask and there was too much “reverence” to the MVP then that’s just a stupid stupid stupid way to run a professional sports franchise. There is an entier staff of trainers that sit in that dugout every night and their job is to watch every moment of every player, ESPECIALLY the MVP, and raise a red flag when something might be wrong. If my ignorant ass is sitting on the couche for the last 3 weeks saying “HEY LOOK! SOMETHING’S REALLY WRONG WITH JOEY’S KNEE!” then I dont’ know what those guys were doing when they were sitting 20 feet away from him getting paid to watch the exact same thing and also happen to be doctors who specialize in sports injuries. He should have had an MRI the day after the slide (he should also stop sliding because he’s not very good at it, but that’s another conversation). A knee MRI takes 45 minutes and I can not think of a way that it is insulting to ask a professional athlete to get a simple medical test. “Your knee is sore? Ok we’re going to do an MRI. The end.” They have one IN THE FREAKING BALLPARK. It’s literally walking ACROSS THE HALL and laying down for a half hour.

      I think it’s perfectly fair for fans to be outraged. I’ve been on the record for weeks that Joey shouldn’t have played in the ASG. We could have been without him for 1 or 2 series, now he’s going to be shelved for a month (it ain’t going to be 3 weeks, folks) and then will probably need 2-3 weeks to really get back up to speed. With the way we’ve been winning games, I don’t know if we can sustain that. “Don’t panic” is all well and good, but this could very well sink the season. It doesn’t help that the very first game into the Votto-less Era we have to watch The Return of Badrroyo. Strap yourselves in, it’s going to be a bumpy ride…

      Absolutely correct. Most all of us here could tell there was a problem. Dusty is in charge of the managing the team. BC is putting up a load of money. The procedure is not invasive. Players at all levels, MVP or not, have been known to lie about their injuries, very common. You don’t trust a player with an injury, ever, like Dusty said he did. It’s a “check”, not a guarantee that he is out. If the check comes out positive, then it would be best for all for him to be out.

      Just another fault of being a players manager.

  28. Lot of discussion here regarding Frazier at first. Has it been stated he’ll get the majority of the starts there? I I know he did last night and I hope he does, but I think we’ll see a steady diet of Cairo at first over the next few weeks.

  29. @eric nyc: I don’t know whether to call you Chicken Little or applaud you b/c I agree with you completely. I fear that I do indeed agree with you, but I am trying to avoid the doom and gloom just yet.

  30. The biggest difference between the last 6 games and Mondays game wasn’t that Joey Votto wasn’t in it; it’s that our starting pitcher must have decided his complete game shutout needed to be averaged out by a real downer.
    Votto hasn’t has a torn meniscus for two and a half weeks; that’s a crazy notion. It’s pretty obvious, however, that Joey probably should have been shut down from the SF series to the Cards series while he could get a legitimate diagnosis. If I’m Votto, I think I have enough money to establish a relationship with a top-notch private sports doctor to monitor my health with respect to my contract, especially after this. Votto is a smart guy, I wish he would do that.

    Just feel lucky that the Reds’ big injury this year was just a torn meniscus that should heal before the big final push. It could have been an ACL tear in that knee, in which case I would be an inconsolable mess.

    The Reds won’t be making some crazy 8 game lead before they play the Bucs, but they have the potential to play .500 ball. I’m not wishing it on the organization, but the Pirates can’t play healthy forever and they don’t have the youngest, healthiest arms in their staff.

  31. Oh should we be worried about the medical’s staff ability to treat a blister? I mean if there isn’t 100% health of Cueto’s index finger then he should not pitch tonight.

    • Oh should we be worried about the medical’s staff ability to treat a blister?I mean if there isn’t 100% health of Cueto’s index finger then he should not pitch tonight.

      If there is the least chance of making it worse, yes, that is only obvious. You are seriously comparing a blister to a knee?

      • If there is the least chance of making it worse, yes, that is only obvious. You are seriously comparing a blister to a knee?

        For a pitcher a blister can be huge, especially if on the index finger of his pitching hand. If that gets infected he could be out for a number of starts.

  32. Yes, Votto should have had an MRI after June 29, but now it’s surgery, so let’s go from here. Wheather it’s at third or first, Frazier needs to be in the everyday lineup. His offense is badly needed.

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