Let’s recap tonight’s titanic struggle….

Philadelphia 9
Cincinnati 0

W: R. Halladay (16-5)
L: B. Arroyo (8-11)

–Joey Votto is the best player in MLB. Tonight, he was the only offensive player wearing a Cincinnati uniform: 2-3 with a walk. Votto had two of the four Cincinnati hits.

That’s all I’m going to say about that.

Milton thinks Joey Votto is good.

28 Responses

  1. wildwestLV

    Maybe…within the next few hours…Cliff Lee will be eating some bad chicken wings at the hotel…

  2. Sergeant2

    On a more positive note, at least the Reds didn’t leave a lot of Men on base. 🙄

  3. Steve Mancuso

    I left after the seventh inning and pulled in to my driveway just as the game was ending. Sigh.

    Struggling to find anything at all positive to say about tonight.

    Tonight’s game does make Homer Bailey’s performance last night look even better!

  4. Steve Mancuso

    Salaries of CIN starting 8 tonight: $27 million
    Salaries of PHI starting 8 tonight: $70 million

    Salaries of CIN SP rotation: $16 million
    Salaries of PHI SP rotation: $57 million

    Annual total salaries CIN, 08-11: $74m, $73m, $76m, $80m
    Annual total salaries PHI, 08-11: $98m, $113m, $138m, $165m

    Of the $80 million the Reds are spending this year, nearly half goes to Arroyo, Rolen, Cordero, Volquez, Renteria, Hernandez and Gomes.

    • wildwestLV

      Of the $80 million the Reds are spending this year, nearly half goes to Arroyo, Rolen, Cordero, Volquez, Renteria, Hernandez and Gomes.


    • Myles

      Salaries of CIN starting 8 tonight: $27 million
      Salaries of PHI starting 8 tonight: $70 million

      Salaries of CIN SP rotation: $16 million
      Salaries of PHI SP rotation: $57 million

      Annual total salaries CIN, 08-11: $74m, $73m, $76m, $80m
      Annual total salaries PHI, 08-11: $98m, $113m, $138m, $165m

      Of the $80 million the Reds are spending this year, nearly half goes to Arroyo, Rolen, Cordero, Volquez, Renteria, Hernandez and Gomes.

      Well the whole thing is difficult to read without wanting to throw a chair.
      That last part is especially stomach churning.

      The difference between the rich teams and the “poor” teams is the margin of error for management assembling a World Series team. On the Yankees you can blow all the money you want. On the Reds blowing a big wad of cash on an Arroyo may just kill your chances of having a competent hitting shortstop or whatever.

  5. OhioJim

    Along the same lines with the salary info…. They were showing the Pfillies dugout at one point and there was Oswalt, Pence, and Lidge. They all used to be Astros, correct? And now they are Pfils and the Astros are in last place and sinking even deeper.

  6. Dave Lowenthal

    @Myles: You’ve got a little margin for error, maybe 20% even, because you’ve only got to make the playoffs and then get lucky.

    But when you make 50% error, which is what they’ve done blowing half their payroll on guys that don’t contribute or negatively contribute—well, maybe it’s more like 40-45%, as Hernandez contributes a little, and Cordero contributes a little (I know many people think he’s great, but he’s basically Logan Ondrusek who pitches in the 9th inning)—you’ve got simply no chance whatsoever.

  7. OhioJim

    Well there are still the call ups to look forward to I guess. Sounds like they are going to call up quite a few guys. Walt told the media they would have some guys there on Thursday with the rest coming in after the Louisville season ended (on Monday I believe).

    Personally I would rather see fewer guys up and have them get more playing time each than have an army of guys playing once or twice a week. Of course given what has gone on in the last 6 weeks, who knows how much any of them will play. And on top of that they are making serious noise that Rolen may start playing as soon as next week.

  8. wildwestLV

    @OhioJim: Walt says that, but do you think Dusty will really play any of those guys? In what series? He’s not playing any of them against the Redbirds. Dusty won’t be shown up against the Cubbies, or the Rockies, or the Cubbies again. Then, it’s the Brewers. I’d bet on not seeing any of ’em until the Astros, and then, maybe. Remember, Dusty’s fighting for every last win here.

  9. Jason1972

    I hate playing the high payroll teams, it just feels like you are in a lower level league. It just ain’t fair, in my life the Reds will never be able to field the kind of talent the Phillies do.

  10. OhioJim

    @Jason1972: Anybody else a fan of European Football (aka soccer in these parts)? Sometimes I find myself wondering what it would be like if we had their relegation system in baseball. At least then there is almost always something to play for right down to the end. You are either looking to move up/ make a super side league or else fighting to avoid going down.

  11. Steve Mancuso

    @Jason1972: I feel the same way although just four years ago the team payrolls were not too far apart ($98m vs. $74m). Now it’s more than double in the Phillies favor, with no sign of the gap abating.

  12. coolpajim

    While I agree it is more difficult to compete when there is such a $ deficit between teams, it is certainly not impossible. Everything rises and falls on leadership. If the Reds’ leadership from the front office to the field is superior then they can field a superior team like our beloved Big Red Machine. Keep the faith fellers; I think things are trending in the right direction.

  13. PeteInPhilly

    Full Disclosure: I’m a long time Phillies fan, living in Philadelphia area for the past 23 years.

    I’ve never followed the Reds on a season by season basis, but I’ve always admired the fans and organization. Cincinnati is one of the truest baseball cities there has ever been, so what I say is entirely in the good spirit of a fellow baseball lover.

    In regards to payroll, the Phillies have a number of worked-for advantages over other clubs:
    1.) An excellent farm system. We have a lot of high priced talent, but a number of them have been Phillies their entire careers, having started in our farm system. Rollins, Ruiz, Utley, Rollins, Worley, and Stutes to just name a few. That helps a LOT in building up an excellent team spirit.
    2.) A very savvy general manager in Ruben Amaro, Jr. (who also grew up around the Phillies; his dad was a Phillie back in the early 60s). Not only has he been able to work out some terrific trades, he’s had the minor league prospects to pull them off. Yes, it weakens our farm system. But every year we seem to bring up more top prospects, both for our Phillies and for trade. And RAJ has a bunch of money as well, due to:
    3.) Outstanding attendance at Citizens Bank Park. Now approaching its 200th consecutive sellout, the 45k+ seat CBP has generated the money because of reasons 1 and 2. They all build on each other.

    Cincinnati is a terrific baseball town, and have the fans to prove it. Once you guys put together a solid farm system (which you may already have; I don’t honestly know) and have the front office staff to manage, trade and build, (again, I don’t know your front office), then the Reds will be an annual contender, with a packed stadium every home game and a huge road game presence.

    Good luck to you! (Except when you play the Phillies, of course.)

  14. littleleo1

    I know Arroyo was bad again .. 36 homers or something like that. However part of his issues and Arran Harang before him is the bandbox ballpark the team plays their home games. Howard’s Homer settled into the second row of seats in right field. I know both teams play under the same conditions at GABP, but our pitchers play 81 games there. Harang mentioned it a couple of years ago. Has anyone heard anything from management about perhaps taking out three or fours rows of seats from the edge of the visitors bullpen to the end of the deck under the smoke stacks ? It would help the pitchers out some for sure. Its not that many seats. Create a ‘notch’ in right field, add a little more character to the park and save a few cheap right field “GABP” homers. Is this even possible? Near checked swing popups turning into homers to right has to be tough on our pitching. Any break we can give them might help

  15. Sultan of Swaff

    @littleleo1: I’ve made an identical suggestion before. The cheapest homers are to the gap in right-center. Turn a few of those cheapies into triples and you make it more exciting for the fans while rendering the park a tad more ‘neutral’.
    And while we’re talking about the park, I’ve never understood why the smokestacks and paddlewheel are disconnected from the actual riverboat atop the batter’s eye. Makes no sense and waters down the impression they’re trying to create.

  16. Sultan of Swaff

    Jocketty says ‘quite a few’ will get call ups in September.
    Does anyone think he’s deliberately forcing a showdown with Dusty?

  17. PeteInPhilly

    Citizens Bank Park in Philadelphia has virtually identical dimensions as GABP. In fact, GABP is four feet deeper at RC and LC. (Though four feet shorter in straight away center.)

    Don’t look for the solutions in the ballpark. Look for it in front office mental approach.

  18. Dave Lowenthal

    @PeteInPhilly: Payroll is the first-order difference between the clubs. Attendance is the logical result from the payroll differential (which results in winning). Good for the Phillies. But let’s not pretend that the farm system is the difference (the Reds have just as good of a system).

    The Reds ought to up their payroll. But one treats prospect for vet trades completely differently (like the Pence trade, or the Halladay trade) when you are going to be spending 160M on your team. Let’s not act like Amaro is some kind of genius for pulling those off, or for signing Cliff Lee. That isn’t exactly rocket science. Prospects have much lower value to your club when you know you can go on the open market and drop a lot of money for players. If the Reds knew they could go sign Cliff Lee, they could go trade Aroldis Chapman tomorrow, for example.

  19. Steve Mancuso

    I appreciate the comments of PeteInPhilly – welcome to RedLeg Nation, Pete!

    A few quick thoughts about them.

    1. The Phillies are in many ways a model organization and the strength of their fan support is impressive. Fans come to see winning teams, which the organization has provided in the past few years.

    2. That said, other explanations aside, there is no getting around the fact that the Phillies spend almost $100 million more on salaries than the Reds. Home-grown talent or not.

    3. The Phillies have an amazing team now because they signed Roy Halladay ($20 million/year), and Cliff Lee ($21 million/year). Without those two pitchers, they would still be an outstanding team, but not much different from Atlanta, St. Louis or Milwaukee. Howard, Utley, Rollins, Polanco and Ibanez are not the players they used to be.

    4. The Phillies could afford the gigantic contract to keep Ryan Howard, the Reds won’t be able to afford one for Joey Votto. That isn’t about farm systems, it’s about money. The Phillies are paying Howard $165 million over the next six years.

    5. Ruben Amaro may be brilliant, but he may also just look a lot smarter because he doesn’t have meaningful salary limits. Walt Jocketty would look a lot smarter if he had $100 million more to spend a year, too.

    Look, the Phillies aren’t cheating. The inequities they exploit are part of the system that is tolerated by the structure of major league baseball.

    I admire what the Phillies have done. And spending money doesn’t guarantee a winner every year. Ask the Mets. Small budget teams can occasionally break through and make the playoffs, but not consistently.

    As my old debate coach used to say, “Whether you’re rich or poor, it’s good to have money.”

  20. Bob Purkey

    You know, Todd Frasier hasn’t played much SS since he was in the Little League World Series, for the Toms River, NJ world champions when he was also the winning pitcher(just thought that I would throw that in there so Kelch, Brennaman, Welch & Grande would know that I am listening. . .), but he did OK over there in some spot play the other day, and I would really like to see him there over there and in the 2-hole instead of Renteria and Janish.

  21. PeteInPhilly

    @Steve Mancuso: No, no. I agree with you; it’s not about our farm system alone. Nor about our general manager making the blockbuster deals. You’re right; it is about the money. But they all work together. Winning increases attendance, at least in baseball towns like Philly and Cincy. (I feel sorry for the Braves fans; even when they’re doing well they have difficulty filling the seats.) The greater the zeal, the greater the support, financially and otherwise. After all, loyal fans buys a LOT more than just tickets. The Phillies weren’t this way ten years ago. But because of the fan support, the front office changed their approach and seemed to strike on the notion that money begets money. Mix in the growing desire of players WANTING to play here – after all, Lee turned down about 50 million more from the Yankees to play here – and the payroll goes up while also being supported by the fans. We couldn’t have paid what we’re paying Halladay, Lee, Howard and etc. a few years ago. It took building up to do it. Our payroll was $41 million in 2001 and increased to $141 million in 2010. We started our series of Division Champions in 2007 (Payroll: $89 million.)

    Yes, the Reds obviously need to step up their payroll. But like the Phillies, the Reds have a solid farm system (taking Dave L at his word), and an unquestionably large, solid and loyal fan base. It’s not a quickie solution. You can’t just toss $100 million out there to see who you get; you need the right kind of front office personnel in place. But while it may take five or six years, it WILL happen. Not every city with a baseball team could say that.

  22. Dave Lowenthal

    @PeteInPhilly: No one ever said that you increase the payroll to 180M next year. That would be stupid. But if you made the decision to be a 180M payroll team in a few years, you’d start making very different decisions.

    (BTW, most farm system rankings have the Reds and Phillies in the top 10.)

    For accuracy, Pete, Cliff Lee didn’t turn down 50M more from the Yankees. The contract lengths were different (yes, he did turn down a guarantee of 50M more, but that is not at all the same thing). I’m not sure of the exact difference, but the per-year values weren’t *that* different. If the the Yankees would have offered Lee 30M per year and the Phils 20M per year, I’m sorry, I know you folks have built a great organization, but I think Lee would have been wearing pinstripes.

    • PeteInPhilly

      @Dave L: (How do you get the name link to post.) You’re right, I went with the “maximum” number. No intent to mislead. But it was certainly more than cab fare. 😉 But yeah, we loved it when Lee chose the Phillies for less money. He hasn’t been backward about saying how he felt, either. Glad to be traded to the Phillies in 2009, shocked he was traded away, then overjoyed and double-shocked when he was able to come back this year.

      And you’re probably right: Had he been offered $10M/year by the Yankees, he’d have gone. Still… as you’ll see tonight, Cliff loves to play “Phillies ball” and he looooooves to bat. The Yankees couldn’t have given him the two home runs Cliff’s already hit for us this year. Sometimes it’s not ALL about the money. *lol!*

  23. rightsaidred

    I have been to PNC Park and it’s great. One thing we haven’t brought up is market size. If the Reds made the playoffs again this year and win a WS next year, there still wouldn’t be 200 consective sellouts over next season and those that would follow. Like Boston, Philly has tapped into a huge surrounding Eastern seaboard population. While the 10 million citizens of the state of OH are nothing to shake a stick at, Red’s fans from 150 miles away are not investing in season ticket packages anytime soon.

    The Reds can be to the Phillies what the Twins are to Red Sox.

  24. Dave Lowenthal

    @PeteInPhilly: Don’t get me wrong, I wouldn’t care about 10M/year when I have more cash then I could spend in 10 lifetimes, but that’s not the way players seem to make decisions. The utility value of money is something most people don’t seem to understand, but that’s just the way society is. Note: I’m not bedgrudging people from making as much cash as they can, it just amazes me when they don’t consider city most important when they compare 20M to 30M.

    Hit the reply button to get the name.