New owners always cause a ripple in the fans world, especially if that ownership is tied to a larger wagon of cash or a swifter team of businessmen. Replacing the 86 year old Lindner and perhaps the long running Allen (who is without a 2006 contract) could be the starting point to an era of Reds baseball that is free of the taste of Schott-Allen-Lindner triple dip weÃ¢â‚¬â„¢ve been licking off the floor for the past 9 years, giving the Reds one good run in 1999 and ending up with the worst pitching in team history.
Chances Dan OÃ¢â‚¬â„¢Brien has probably been making a few feeler calls the past couple weeks that had as much to do with him as the Reds. In the next 30 days the sale should be approved by MLB, leaving the early December owners meetings at the launching point for the new regime.
Of course the new guys arenÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t really that new, they have Cincinnati roots and the treasured Ã¢â‚¬Å“local connectionsÃ¢â‚¬Â a term that is as old and as evidently as important as the teams name being the Reds. There already is lots of talk about that fact on the chat boards and the streets, fresh blood gives the illusion of change and change is needed to this franchise as much as any other in the sport.
One thing of note is the Reds have had local ownership for over 100 years, and aside from a 10-year window in the 19th century they have been locally owned since their inception. So in honor of the new ownership group and the sliver of hope that change is indeed on the horizon IÃ¢â‚¬â„¢m going to try and run down the list of the Reds owners and some of their accomplishments and failures.
Instead of starting out with Champion and the 1869 team weÃ¢â‚¬â„¢ll jump to 1882 and even forget the 5 or so guys that owned the Reds when they entered the National League the first time around (1876-1880) weÃ¢â‚¬â„¢ll leap directly to the Gibson Hotel in downtown Cincinnati and into a room where Enquirer columnist O.P. CaylorÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s held a meeting to form a new professional league to give the ousted Red Stockings a formal setting to show off their skills, as well as generate a little coin for the principals.
The principals in the early years were a group of men like Caylor, local businessmen with a sporting interest.
In the years from 1882-1886 the ownership group was not the most stable of animals. In that time period the group had 4 owners (Stern, Caylor, Thorner, Herancourt) sold the team to a fifth (John Hauk) who in turn sold it back to Aaron Stern who led the team in 2 of their most important moves in the 19th century.
In 1884 a St. Louis businessman decided he would form a competing baseball league, one that didnÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t depend on the reserve clause. The Union Association was a disaster in many ways, lasting only a year before fading into the crowded history of failed leagues. However the UA did affect the Reds. The 1880 Reds owner (and brief owner of the AA Reds) Justus Thorner became interested in the UA and decided to run the Cincinnati entry. The importance of this lies in the fact that Thorner locked down the Reds playing field on Bank Street as the venue that his team would call home, leaving the Reds homeless.
Lucky for the Reds Aaron Stern found a site a mile or so south of the Unions on the corner of Findlay and Western, in an abandoned brick yard. Securing the lease on the land by the spring there stood a new park, which was the Reds home for the next 87 years.
Stern’s next move might have been the best of his career. In 1890 another new league created the opportunity as it had before when the Reds lost their ballfield. The Brotherhood League helped weaken the AA leaving the weaker teams to wallow in a pool of lesser talent and the stronger teams to look for more robust opponents. In search of better business opportunities Stern reapplied to the National League. In November of 1889 the Reds were restructured to take care of the departed Brotherhood players and along with Brooklyn they were readmitted to the National League, where theyÃ¢â‚¬â„¢ve been ever since.
Stern’s and company had a tenure that was marked by the Reds 1st League championship in 1882 and was highlighted by players such as Bid McPhee and Tony Mullane. One note is that the Enquirer did not like the Reds too much back in the 1880Ã¢â‚¬â„¢s and showered them with a torrent of bad press. This mostly is due to an acrimonious relationship with Caylor, who jumped to the rival Commercial Gazette about the time he became involved with the Reds and the AA.
Ownership Group #1 YEAR PLACE W L PCT GB TITLE 1882 1st 55 25 .688 +11.5 AA CHAMPIONS 1883 3rd 61 37 .622 5 1884 5th 68 41 .624 8 1885 2nd 63 49 .563 16 1886 5th 65 73 .471 27.5 1887 2nd 81 54 .600 14 1888 4th 80 54 .597 11.5 1889 4th 76 63 .547 18 1890 4th 77 55 .583 10.5 WINS W L PCT 1 Reds 626 450 .582
In 1890 Stern flipped the Reds for a small sum to an Indianapolis department store owner named John Talleyrand Brush. For his first move Brush exhibited a trait that would become all too familiar in Cincinnati over the years, he obtained a washed up superstar(s) with the signing of Hoss Radbourne and Pete Browning and promptly finished 30 games back.
Brush was an owner in the era of Ã¢â‚¬Å“Syndicate BallÃ¢â‚¬Â and had an interest in the Giants as well. His tenure will always be marked by the Christy Mathewson incident, but he also presided over a few changes that were for the better, if not innovative. Among his accomplishments was hiring former Providence manager Frank Bancroft, Banny was an institution with the Reds until his death in 1921. Together he and Brush can take responsibility for genesis of Opening Day and the pomp and circumstance surrounding the event as well as instituting the first use of a farm team with the Reds deal with Indianapolis in the mid 1890Ã¢â‚¬â„¢s. It was also underneath the Brush administration that the field dimensions were changed in 1894, when the diamond was moved, with the former spot for home plate becoming right field. Perhaps BrushÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s greatest achievement as a Reds owner was the installation of the Palace of the Fans and the famous rooters row in League Park in 1902. Based on the architecture exhibited at the 1892 Worlds Fair the park took on an air that was not found at any other ball field in America.
Some of the players for the Reds in that era were.
Buck Ewing, Arlie Laham, Charles Comiskey, Jake Beckley, Dummy Hoy, Bug Holliday, Bid McPhee to name a few of the popular players who wore red.
Ownership Group #2 YEAR PLACE W L PCT GB TITLE 1891 7th 56 81 .409 30.5 1892 4th 44 31 .587 8.5 1892 8th 38 37 .507 14.5 1893 6th 65 63 .508 20.5 1894 10th 55 75 .423 35 1895 8th 66 64 .508 21 1896 3rd 77 50 .606 12 1897 4th 76 56 .576 17 1898 3rd 92 60 .605 11.5 1899 6th 83 67 .553 19 1900 7th 62 77 .446 21.5 1901 8th 52 87 .374 38 1902 4th 70 70 .500 33.5 WINS W L PCT 1 Reds 836 818 .505
In August 0f 1902 Brush sold the Reds to a local group of businessmen headed by the Cox political machine and the Fleischman yeast family, which also included Cincinnati Mayor Julius Fleischman. Cox machine member Garry Herrmann (who was the water works commissioner) became the team president of the group it would be a title he would hold for the next 25 years.
One thing about the Reds ownership situation is that it has often been the responsibility of a group of locals as opposed to the singular leader at the top of the food chain. Herrmann was the appointed leader of the Reds for a quarter of a century, presiding over a team that was within 7 games of first only 4 times in that span, winning the league only once in 1919.
Never a rich franchise the Reds employed 12 managers in HerrmannÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s tenure, looking constantly for the right fit. Employed were player managers like Tinker, Kelly, Herzog, Ganzel and Clarke and even the umpire from Merkel incident was given a year as manager for the Reds. All and all the franchise wasnÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t a pillar of strength and had accomplishments that are faded to light sepia in the glow of the Reds from the second half of the century. HerrmannÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s greatest achievement as the owner would be his involvement in helping develop policy in MLB as he served on the governing board prior to LandisÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s appointment. He helped cement CincinnatiÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s involvement in the National League, making it harder to ever suggest moving the team in the future. He also presided over the opening of Redland Field in 1912, the all concrete and steel stadium ushered in the era of modern parks in the Cincinnati area.
Tainted by the gambling scandal the Reds 1919 championship never fully belonged to the city, in the 20Ã¢â‚¬â„¢s they fielded a club that had more stability than ever before and perhaps the best pitching of the franchises history. Alas the hitting was more often absent in the cavernous Redland than present and by the end of the 1927 season the Reds brief window of opportunity was closing fast.
After the 1927 season Herrmann resigned due to increasing deafness and the ownership mantle passed to board member C. J. McDiarmi, who took the business as usual approach until another rustling of a new owner was heard in the late parts of the 1929 season.
Some of the players during the Herrmann era included, Noodles Hahn, Cy Seymour, Mike Donlin, Clark Griffith, Bob Beschler, Miller Huggins, Hans Lobert, Pete Donahue, Edd Roush, Rube Bressler, Dolph Luque, Bubbles Hargrove and Ethan Allen to name a few.
Ownership Group #3 1903 4th 74 65 .532 16.5 1904 3rd 88 65 .575 18 1905 5th 79 74 .516 26 1906 6th 64 87 .424 51.5 1907 6th 66 87 .431 41.5 1908 5th 73 81 .474 26 1909 4th 77 76 .503 33.5 1910 5th 75 79 .487 29 1911 6th 70 83 .458 29 1912 4th 75 78 .490 29 1913 7th 64 89 .418 37.5 1914 8th 60 94 .390 34.5 1915 7th 71 83 .461 20 1916 T7th 60 93 .392 33.5 1917 4th 78 76 .506 20 1918 3rd 68 60 .531 15.5 1919 1st 96 44 .686 +9 WORLD CHAMPIONS 1920 3rd 82 71 .536 10.5 1921 6th 70 83 .458 24 1922 2nd 86 68 .558 7 1923 2nd 91 63 .591 4.5 1924 4th 83 70 .542 10 1925 3rd 80 73 .523 15 1926 2nd 87 67 .565 2 1927 5th 75 78 .490 18.5 CJ McDiarmind 1928 5th 78 74 .513 16 1929 7th 66 88 .429 33 WINS W L PCT 1 Reds 2036 2049 .498
Sidney Weil a local businessman secretly purchased up enough shares of the Reds in late 1929 to become the owner, to obtain control of the team Weil bought up 3200 shares, valued at $50 a share for up to $200 a share. On October 4th 1929 Weil took in the game at Redland, as the owner of his favorite team, not just a fan.
In a show of faith he inked 4 current players to salary increases, obtained Bob Meusel from the Yankees and Harry Heilmann from the Tigers. While Weil was wheeling and dealing his personal worth was taking a large hit from the stock market crash. Like many WeilÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s worth was paper in nature and when the nature of the paper changed so did his worth. Thus beginning the worst run of luck the franchise had ever experienced, being highlighted by 3 straight last place finishes and the endless stream of washed up stars like Babe Herman and Chick Hafney.
By the end of the 1934 season Weil could no longer bail the water out of the bottom of the boat and relinquished his control of the club to the Central Trust Bank, who held the paper on the team after WeilÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s stock market problems. Leaving a team swashed in bankruptcy, a depleted park and empty seats. Perhaps his greatest legacy will be the treatment he afforded players like Leo Durocher, whom he guided thru a tumultuous transition from the Yankees to the Reds. Weil also could lay claim to obtaining Ernie Lombardi as well as Paul Derringer (who the Reds got for Leo)
Ownership Group #4 1930 7th 59 95 .383 33 1931 8th 58 96 .377 43 1932 8th 60 94 .390 30 1933 8th 58 94 .382 33 WINS W L PCT 1 Reds 235 379 .383
On November 7th 1933 the Central Trust Company hired former Cardinals employee and Columbus owner Larry McPhail to run the Reds. This was the first time the Reds turned to a Cardinal employee for help in righting the franchise and as seen in the recent purchase itÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s certainly not the last.
In less than 90 days Larry had persuaded local businessman Powell Crosley to buy the Reds. Spending a scant $175,000 dollars for the Ã¢â‚¬Å“controllingÃ¢â‚¬Â stock Crosley took an option on 80% of the remaining stock (which he eventually obtained) Crosley held the Reds from 1934-1961, the longest continuous ownership reign in Reds history; he also created the basis for the legacy that propelled the Reds into the Big Red Machine era with a semblance of success that was at least better than the Philles and Pirates.
Like an ocean liner turning around a moribund franchise is an easier task spoken than one done. CrosleyÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s first year as owner also happens to be the year that the Reds had their worst winning percentage of all time, finishing 42 games behind the Cardinals who had finished first 5 times in the nine years since the Reds had last won 80 games. Crosley not only put the Reds on the baseball map, he helped bring night ball to the major leagues, installed WLW as the flagship station in Cincinnati as well as the whole Ohio Valley and made Crosley Field into a pleasant relic that captured the imagination of the locals until the day it was nothing but a parking lot.
Crosley brought in another Cardinal in 1936 when Warren Giles took McPhailÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s place and brought a couple of guys with him that would become GMÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s in the 50Ã¢â‚¬â„¢s, One Frank Lane was known as the premier wheeler dealer in the American League in the 50Ã¢â‚¬â„¢s. The other Gabe Paul was an assistant with Giles in the CardinalÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s system and took the GM duties from Giles when Warren became NL president in 1951. He guided the Reds through the 50Ã¢â‚¬â„¢s, an era in the minds of many locals that is rich in lore as being the last vestige of the ballplayer as a local community member, not a star, not a demigod, but a man who played ball for a living and drank beer out of the bottle.
Paul resigned in 1960; Crosley was advancing in age and had recently rejected overturns from NYC to move the Reds there. In PaulÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s absence he turned to another baseball man with roots that led to St. Louis and the Cardinal organization and hired Bill DeWitt to run the Reds.
IN 1961 The Berlin Wall was constructed, Powell Crosley died and Nuxhall was traded, of course the Reds came out of nowhere and won the National Leagues last title in an eight team league.
Fate is a funny thing, sometimes it leaves out major players.
After the 1961 series DeWitt purchased the Reds from the Crosley estate for 4.6 million dollars, ending CrosleyÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s run as the Reds owner, the longest in club history leaving a legacy of 3 NL Titles and a World Championship. Bringing legends to the Reds like Ted Klusiwski, Bucky Walters, Frank McCormick, Ewell Blackwell, Gus Bell, Frank Robinson, Vada Pinson, Roy McMillan, Johnny Temple and Billy Weber.
Ownership Group #5 1934 8th 52 99 .344 42 1935 6th 68 85 .444 31.5 1936 5th 74 80 .481 18 1937 8th 56 98 .364 40 1938 4th 82 68 .547 6 1939 1st 97 57 .630 +4.5 NL CHAMPIONS 1940 1st 100 53 .654 +12 WORLD CHAMPIONS 1941 3rd 88 66 .571 12 1942 4th 76 76 .500 29 1943 2nd 87 67 .565 18 1944 3rd 89 65 .578 16 1945 7th 61 93 .396 37 1946 6th 67 87 .435 30 1947 5th 73 81 .474 21 1948 7th 64 89 .418 27 1949 7th 62 92 .403 35 1950 6th 66 87 .431 24.5 1951 6th 68 86 .442 28.5 1952 6th 69 85 .448 27.5 1953 6th 68 86 .442 37 1954 5th 74 80 .481 23 1955 5th 75 79 .487 23.5 1956 3rd 91 63 .591 2 1957 4th 80 74 .519 15 1958 4th 76 78 .494 16 1959 T5th 74 80 .481 13 1960 6th 67 87 .435 28 1961 1st 93 61 .604 +4 NL CHAMPIONS WINS W L PCT 1 Reds 2097 2202 .488
The establishment of a stronger scouting system than the Crosley era marked Bill DeWittÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s tenure; he also continued the move towards acquiring hitters over pitchers as Paul had done in the 50Ã¢â‚¬â„¢s. The DeWitt Reds were a good team, compiling a .546 winning percentage in his 5 years as owner, finishing 1 game out in the famous 1964 race and 8 the next season. However the Dodgers and Giants played .580 ball those five years and the Reds were constantly looking up at them rather than down.
DeWittÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s failingÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s could be found in 3 areas, number one would be the never forgotten trade of Frank Robinson, number two would be the in the hiring of Don Heffner as manager in 1966 (a mistake later repeated by Howsam with Vern Rapp) and number three would be his undoing.
Woefully inadequate in the car driven 60Ã¢â‚¬â„¢s Crosley Field was beginning to show its age.
DewittÃ¢â‚¬â„¢sÃ¢â‚¬â„¢ first suggestion to fix the problem was in 1964 when he announced that Crosley should be expanded. Like the idea to expand Riverfront in the late 90Ã¢â‚¬â„¢s the idea was deemed to expensive for the final result, soon after other options began to be explored, one idea floating about was a Riverfront location, one that DeWitt was against, preferring on building a new stadium in Blue Ash instead. By mid season 1966 a multi use stadium was approved by the city council. Rather than commit to a long-term lease DeWitt sold the Reds to local interests, led by Frank Dale for 7 million dollars in December 5th.
Among the players DeWitt marked his tenure with were, Tommy Harper, Joey Jay, Pete Rose, Tony Perez, Lee May, Deron Johnson, Jim Maloney, Leo CÃƒÂ¡rdenas and the first draft with Carbo and Bench coming in back to back.
Ownership Group #6 1962 3rd 98 64 .605 3.5 1963 5th 86 76 .531 13 1964 T2nd 92 70 .568 1 1965 4th 89 73 .549 8 1966 7th 76 84 .475 18 WINS W L PCT 1 Reds 441 367 .546
As previously mentioned one thing that is prevalent about the Reds is that they are often owned by a group of local business men with one ace of spades share floating around like the old maid card in a childrenÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s deck, however the power in this card wields positive power as opposed to the negative power the old maid card holds.. In 1967 Frank Dale held the card, his first duty as the new Reds owner was to find a man to run the team. Once again the Reds turned south, bringing Bob Howsam and his Rickey roots to an already blossoming team in hopes of getting it to flower, a task that DeWitt was only able to achieve prior to his ownership of the team.
The rest is history, known by all Reds fans and talked about in living rooms all over the tri-state area.
But like an Old Maid card the controlling share moved around during the Big Red Machine era, moving from Dale to Louis Nippert in early 1973 and then to the Williams Brothers in 1981. During NippertÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s reign the Reds achieved their greatest success and in 1978 Howsam moved aside and Dick Wagner stepped in, any mention of his deeds are unnecessary WagnerÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s reputation as an executive is only eclipsed by his utter lack of knowledge when it came to judging talent. That said it was known that he could squeeze pennies out of any contract, a part of the Reds organization that is as old as the teams nickname.
It took the Williams brothers and the 1982-1983 seasons to finally rush Wagner out the door in July of 1983, his replacement was his mentor Bob Howsam who brought back Pete Rose and Tony Perez, washing the grey walls of Reds baseball with the paint of the past while he attempted to fix the teams beleaguered infrastructure. In the autumn of 1984 Howsam stepped aside into the background again and the Reds had their 7th General Manager in their history Bill Bergesch, who was not a Cardinal product, the first Reds GM that wasnÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t. His prior job was director of baseball operations for the Yankees.
On the first day of winter in 1984 the old maid card found a new holder when it landed in the hands of Marge Schott.
IÃ¢â‚¬â„¢d list the players during this era but I think thatÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s not necessary.
Ownership Group #7 1967 4th 87 75 .537 14.5 1968 4th 83 79 .512 14 1969 3rd 89 73 .549 4 1970 1st 102 60 .630 +14.5 NL CHAMPIONS 1971 T4th 79 83 .488 11 1972 1st 95 59 .617 +10.5 NL CHAMPIONS 1973 1st 99 63 .611 +3.5 NL WEST CHAMPIONS 1974 2nd 98 64 .605 4 1975 1st 108 54 .667 +20 WORLD CHAMPIONS 1976 1st 102 60 .630 +10 WORLD CHAMPIONS 1977 2nd 88 74 .543 10 1978 2nd 92 69 .571 2.5 1979 1st 90 71 .559 +1.5 NL WEST CHAMPIONS 1980 3rd 89 73 .549 3.5 1981 2nd 35 21 .625 0.5 1981 2nd 31 21 .596 1.5 1982 6th 61 101 .377 28 1983 6th 74 88 .457 17 1984 5th 70 92 .432 22 WINS W L PCT 1 Reds 1572 1280 .551
The Reds franchise was valued at 22 million dollars at the end of the 1984 season, when Indian Hill resident and local businesswoman Marge Schott dropped down a miniscule 9 million dollars for controlling interest of the 102 year old franchise. With the townÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s favorite son running the team Schott hoped to ride the wave of Reds baseball to the top of the Cincinnati bylines.
The problem is she eventually got there for all the wrong reasons, too numerous and repeated often enough to be approaching legend status throughout the seven hills and up into the plains of central Ohio and beyond. Rather than bore you with the details, weÃ¢â‚¬â„¢ll focus on the accomplishments. Howsam once again built a stronger Reds team, the 85 team was perhaps the oldest Reds team ever, with no regular younger than 28.
The 1987 team held the teamÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s crown jewels close to the vest in July of 1987Ã¢â‚¬Â¦ sitting in first late that month the team was 2nd in the league in runs but working on their 3rd straight month of a team era of 4.80.
Rather than part with OÃ¢â‚¬â„¢Neil, Larkin or Daniels the Reds GM did his best Pat Gillick in Seattle impression and rode the tight race out with the cards dealt him, the result cost the GM Bergesch his job in the fall and the 8th general manager Murray Cook came aboard, not a Cardinal but another Yankee (Expo GM too) two days after his appointment he traded Kurt Stillwell to the Royals.
After the 1989 season (An experience that still troubles me) Cook was jettisoned by Schott and Bob Quinn another Yankee was brought in to run the show, three years later he was also putting his resume out there in hopes of finding a new position as the Reds dumped him and brought in 31 year old Bowden (another Yankee) to run the show.
Despite the World Championship and the 1995 team the Reds were mostly just completive during SchottÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s tenure, never dominating, never a sure thing.
Some of the players that arrived in this ear would be Browning, Dibble, Larkin, Boone, Sanders, Meyers, Oliver, Gant, Mitchell, Jackson, Reese and Taubensee.
Ownership Group #8 1985 2nd 89 72 .553 5.5 1986 2nd 86 76 .531 10 1987 2nd 84 78 .519 6 1988 2nd 87 74 .540 7 1989 5th 75 87 .463 17 1990 1st 91 71 .562 +5 WORLD CHAMPIONS 1991 5th 74 88 .457 20 1992 2nd 90 72 .556 8 1993 5th 73 89 .451 31 1994 1st 65 48 .575 +0.5 1995 1st 85 59 .590 +9 NL CENTRAL CHAMPIONS 1996 3rd 81 81 .500 7 1997 3rd 76 86 .469 8 1998 4th 77 85 .475 25 1999 2nd 96 67 .589 1.5 WINS W L PCT 1 Reds 1230 1133 .521
In 1999 Schott sold out to Carl Lindner who had been a partner for years, Lindner had tried to wrest control of the team back in 1982 only to lose out to the Williams brothers. His entrance was marked with much of the same ballyhoo that is being bantered about this week about the new Reds owners and the future of the franchise. The result has been a run of bad seasons that are only matched by the Weil years and the post war doldrums of the tail end of Giles run as GM. To complete the picture the Bowden years ended in 2003 with the mid-season dismissal of the once Boy Wonder, whose run as GM only was recently matched in Cincinnati history by Howsam Big Red Machine run.
BowdenÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s replacement is the ying to JimÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s yang, the conservative, and cautious approach of Dan OÃ¢â‚¬â„¢Brien (whose daddy was the GM in Texas in the mid 70Ã¢â‚¬â„¢s) has led us to where the Reds sit today, hoping that the new owners can right the ship, turn around the ocean liner, spend money, pick better players, market better, be more honest with the fans etc.
Ownership Group #9 2000 2nd 85 77 .525 10 2001 5th 66 96 .407 27 2002 3rd 78 84 .481 19 2003 5th 69 93 .426 19 2004 4th 76 86 .469 29 2005 5th 73 89 .451 27 WINS W L PCT 1 Reds 447 525 .460
So here we sit waiting for the sale to go through, waiting for the future to be breeched, for something good to happen, and once again itÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s a local connection, but this also has a twist of the past too, itÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s once again coming from the Cardinals.