2012 Reds

No Gold Gloves for the Redlegs

The Reds had six finalists for this year’s Gold Glove awards. In order to perfectly cap off this terrible October, they went — of course — zero for six.

People are going to complain about Brandon Phillips losing out to Chicago’s Darwin Barney, but the fact that Jimmy Rollins won at shortstop was a much bigger joke. It’s ludicrous. Zack Cozart was one of the other finalists, and he would have been a much better choice than Rollins. Rollins can barely play the position anymore.

The other Reds who were denied: Jay Bruce, Drew Stubbs, Joey Votto, Bronson Arroyo. Surprised Ryan Hanigan wasn’t nominated at catcher.

Oh well, can we just start forgetting the last few weeks, please?

57 thoughts on “No Gold Gloves for the Redlegs

  1. Zack Cozart, Brandon Crawford, and Mike Trout all missed out on Gold Gloves – I think it’s extra tough for rookies to win and if Trout got overlooked for that reason I’m fine with Cozart being left out also. It gives Cozart something to shoot for next season.

    Brandon Phillips losing to Darwin Barney, that was a joke. Even the ESPN guys announcing the award were surprised. Brandon Phillips was snubbed for both the All Star Team and a Gold Glove.

    It’s a shame when the guy who hits better gets a boost in the Gold Glove voting, which I think is what happened with Andrew McCutchen – I think Stubbs was just as deserving. Bruce and Arroyo also deserved it. I’m fine with Joey Votto losing – consider the denial of a Gold Glove punishment for a knee injury, and something to prioritize next season.

    In the ESPN show announcing the winners I liked when (first time Gold Glove winner) Chase Headley said he models his defense after Scott Rolen. At least somebody recognized a Reds player.

  2. Having watched BP and Darwin Barney in 2012, I’m amazed that Barney won this. My first reaction is that managers and coaches are punishing BP for “hot dogging”. But the Fielding Bible had Barney by a wide margin over BP, due to “runs saved”.

    The defensive metrics are still iffy, I think. And of course the managers and coaches didn’t make their choices based on that.

  3. @redsfanman: Offense shouldn’t be a factor, and it almost always is. J. J. Hardy winning over Brendan Ryan is a joke. I knew Stubbs didn’t have a chance, based on his 2012 offense.

    The years that Biggio won the GG for 2nd base, Brett Boone was an obviously better defensive 2nd baseman. Jeff Kent is a butthead but at least he was honest: “They aren’t going to give a GG to a guy like that”, he said of Boone, whose offense was weak in those years.

    Rollins winning is a “veteran who’s done it for years” kind of guy that the managers and coaches love to choose.

  4. @pinson343: PS The media “experts” of course aren’t always right, but the one thing they all agree on is that BP is the best defensive 2nd baseman in the major leagues.
    The managers/coaches saying otherwise does not sway me. But I would like to hear from someone who understands what “runs saved” is based on.

  5. What I don’t get is how can the Reds more or less be universally considered one of the best defensive teams in all of baseball yet they don’t win a single GG?

    I guess the fact the Reds got 6 finalist is testament to the fact that the Reds have great defense everywhere on the field, but apparently they are not the best at any given position.

  6. IMO, its basically a “hypothetical” draft. If you had to choose players in order from best to worst,like they do in the draft, you choose BP over DB all day long. I think every coach in the big leagues would make that choice as well, if tasked to do so. If offense doesn’t matter, then your overall team record should matter, if DB is better than BP, defensively, on a team like the Cubs,then its obvious it still wasn’t good enough. Who else was making plays at 2nd and in reality also having to worry about ALWAYS being there to back up Votto’s inadequacies at first? BP played 150%, especially in the post season, he knew Votto wasn’t all there, and he knew that when called upon he had to be there, behind Votto, in the event Joey couldn’t make the play. We all saw it, especially in the post season.

  7. Reds come home with zero awards this year, in all categories. They must have had a bad year.

    Forgotten, Chad. Just like the Reds.

  8. BP is the best defensive 2B in the game. . . Period. Is there any way to know how close the votes were? . . .

  9. On a side note, I actually thought Darwin Barney was probably going to win. Flash notwithstanding, he is a very solid defensive 2nd baseman.

  10. Was drunk Tony LaRussa picking the Golden Glove awards this year? BP was robbed. Also, shouldn’t Todd Frazier have been nominated (and won) for 1B, 3B, LF, and RF?

    • Shouldn’t Todd Frazier have been nominated (and won) for 1B, 3B, LF, and RF?

      I think someone just stepped on Todd’s cape.

  11. I can’t believe the Reds didn’t get a single gold glove. Well…should we be surprised, the past few weeks have been awful.

  12. God forbid baseball have exciting, charismatic, personal, fan-favorite, hard-working, and fun baseball players like Brandon Phillips. It’s sad to think that managers and coaches have their feelings hurt so much by Brandon Phillips they have to vote for someone that has a slight edge in select statistics because Barney “didn’t rub them the wrong way.” Boo. Hoo.
    Not as ridiculous as the Cozart rob. He statistically and aesthetically outperformed everyone in the NL at shortstop, but since he isn’t some hailed grizzled ancient from the armpit city’s luxury tax loving baseball team that had a down year, he didn’t stand a chance in the eyes of the voters.

    I will complain about votes for everything in baseball (BBWA, Coaches and Managers, the godforsaken AL v. SF/STL All Star game voting) but I literally pulled hair out after this one.

  13. Darwin Barney? Darwin Barney? I still wasn’t over Soto beating out Votto for ROY. My Cubs Hate Index just invented a new color of maximum hate warning: Red wasn’t sufficient. It’s really, really, red now.

    • Darwin Barney? Darwin Barney? I still wasn’t over Soto beating out Votto for ROY. My Cubs Hate Index just invented a new color of maximum hate warning: Red wasn’t sufficient. It’s really, really, red now.

      If you must dislike the Cardinals, it should be for a reason. You should just hate the Cubs on principle.

  14. Win the 2nd most games in MLB behind statistically the best defense in either league and win ZERO Gold Gloves. I actually used to think the GG’s were one of the more genuine awards in baseball. Yes, guys tended to hold onto them as legacies maybe a little too long sometimes (Albert Pujols) but at least it wasn’t a silly fan vote like the All Star game. Guys tended to get it on the basis of playing consistently well even if there was little or no statistical data to say how good they were. You had to actually WATCH a guy’s body of work over 162 games and usually the right guy won. But this is an absolute joke. Darwin Barney is a very very good defensive 2B. Elite, even. And he might just end up being a better all around 2B than Phillips. But how anyone could watch BP’s play this year and think that ANYONE in the league fielded a better 2B is just absurd.

  15. I just watched a bunch of highlights from Barney. He’s elite. And he’s just as showy, so I don’t know if BPs flamboyant nature had anything to do with it. BP may have to step up his game a bit because Barney may just be the best defensive second baseman in the game right now.

  16. Barney was better this year, that’s all. But his body of work the previous two years tells me a regression is probable, and why BP is still the better bet.

    The Gold glove has been meaningless for me since the late 80s when Ozzie Smith was taking home gold gloves long after Larkin surpassed him. Then the Boone fiasco sealed it for me.

  17. Hey, the Reds’ medical staff won the Dick Martin award. What more can a fan-base want? :mrgreen:

    • Hey, the Reds’ medical staff won the Dick Martin award. What more can a fan-base want?

      I feel pretty sure that was done just to rub salt in our wounds! That was probably more ridiculous than getting zero gold gloves. I’m still confused as to why Votto didn’t get an MRI in SF!

  18. I follow baseball rather closely and I honestly had never heard of Darwin Barney. (Probably because I ignore the Cubs on principle.) Oddly, though, the fact that Barney is not a household name means he probably was pretty darn good to have won the award.

  19. Maybe there is a lesson in this for Brandon Phillips. Turn down the theatrics and hot-dogging a notch or three. Just play ball. Get rid of the DatDude persona. What are you, a Nyger Morgan?? Just play ball. And finally go out, hustle, and just play ball.

    • Maybe there is a lesson in this for Brandon Phillips.Turn down the theatrics and hot-dogging a notch or three. Just play ball. Get rid of the DatDude persona. What are you, a Nyger Morgan??Just play ball. And finally go out, hustle, and just play ball.

      Brandon Phillips thrives on attention and spreading excitement for the sake of selling tickets. If he turns down the theatrics I’m not sure he’s worth the contract he was given – I think his ability to draw fans is part of why he got so much cash. Joey Votto goes out and plays ball well… but he’s booooring.

      • Brandon Phillips thrives on attention and spreading excitement for the sake of selling tickets. If he turns down the theatrics I’m not sure he’s worth the contract he was given – I think his ability to draw fans is part of why he got so much cash. Joey Votto goes out and plays ball well… but he’s booooring

        I have to disagree. Winning sells tickets. Winning. Not a bunch of wannabe ganster rapper stuff. If Phillips hits .300 then he is worth his contract. We aren’t paying for the hotdog mustard and relish. Just his play and his contributions to winning.

        • I have to disagree.Winning sells tickets. Winning.Not a bunch of wannabe ganster rapper stuff. If Phillips hits .300 then he is worth his contract.We aren’t paying for the hotdog mustard and relish. Just his play and his contributions to winning.

          So you’re saying no one every bought at ticket to GASP to watch Junior Griffey?

    • Maybe there is a lesson in this for Brandon Phillips.Turn down the theatrics and hot-dogging a notch or three. Just play ball. Get rid of the DatDude persona. What are you, a Nyger Morgan??Just play ball. And finally go out, hustle, and just play ball.

      Toward the end of the season, at least two NL managers were on record as saying they weren’t gonna vote for Phillips. Davey Johnson was one, the other name escapes me here, but it was because of his showy (showboating?) style of play. Barney was perceived to be more steady, less look-at-me but still making the plays. And that long errorless streak goes get attention. … I didn’t see a ton of Barney’s games, but I find it hard to believe that he covers as much ground and makes as many difficult plays as Phillips does….But if two NL managers were saying it out loud, I think it’s likely that others were thinking that way, too.

      • Toward the end of the season, at least two NL managers were on record as saying they weren’t gonna vote for Phillips. Davey Johnson was one, the other name escapes me here, but it was because of his showy (showboating?) style of play.

        That’s rich coming from Davey Johnson. Ever read “The Bad Guys Won?” You probably won’t ever find a team of more arrogant jerks than the ’86 Mets (which is why it was a great book to read) and he’s hating on Phillips, who people don’t like because he smiles and self-promotes? Yeah, Dwight Gooden and Darryl Strawberry were much more gentlemanly in their day. Never mind that whole cocaine thing.

  20. I told a Cub-loving friend of mine yesterday that I was sorry I missed seeing Barney’s defense this year because I was too busy seeing highlights of Phillips. Let the Cubs have this one, since there is so little joy in Wrigleyville. It’s no worse than Orlando Hudson and whomever taking away the three other Gold Gloves BP should have. Barney will be on his third club five years from now, and Phillips will still be drawing people to GABP. When he retires, everyone here will go from “I’m not sure he’s really worth his contract” to “boy, we got a bargain having him here all these years.”

  21. @vegastypo:

    I think the other one was Pittsburgh’s Clint Hurdle. I know the Pittsburgh TV announcers hated Phillips and his hotdog antics. Even they were singing the praises of Barney for the GG.

  22. @WVRedlegs: nobody ever goes to a game just to see a certain player because they like him and his style? Nobody ever saw someone like Phillips make a fantastic play that made them want to come back to the ball park? And the “wannabe gangster rapper stuff“… good heavens. That made me so sad to see. Poor taste and poor context. A black man playing baseball with a little bit of, dare I say it, fun, does not make him someone who espouses violence, drug use, or the dehumanizing of women.

  23. I’m amazed there are people here who think BP is a showboat. I can see that coming from a fan of another team that doesn’t watch him play every game. If all you know of BP is the Sports Center plays you might think he’s doing what he’s doing for the attention. But anyone who watches him play regularly knows that those highlight reel plays are plays that WOULDN’T BE OUTS if he had done them any other way. I’ve never seen him make a flashy play that he COUDL have made simpler just to show off. Bottom line is, 31 other starting 2nd basemen in the league would simply take all of those balls and leave them as infield hits. No one would say a word because they would think “No way to make that out”. BP goes between his leg or off the seat of his pants, turns a hit into an out, and people complain about it. Yeah, I’m sure other managers hate it because he’s robbing them of hits and he’s doing it with a huge grin on his face and getting famous for it.

    • Yeah, I’m sure other managers hate it because he’s robbing them of hits and he’s doing it with a huge grin on his face and getting famous for it.

      Agreed. In his Prime, you’d see Griffey on every commercial break smiling and shilling a product with his whole “love of the game” thing, but with BP it’s all showing off. Baseball is so stupid sometimes. I’m not saying I’d rather see people do stupid dances after every play like they do in NFL, but a little emotion once in a while can only help get people involved. The one exception being whatever that seizure is that Sergio Romo does after getting the last out. I never wanted to see Brian Wilson pitch so bad.

    • I’m amazed there are people here who think BP is a showboat. I can see that coming from a fan of another team that doesn’t watch him play every game. If all you know of BP is the Sports Center plays you might think he’s doing what he’s doing for the attention. But anyone who watches him play regularly knows that those highlight reel plays are plays that WOULDN’T BE OUTS if he had done them any other way. I’ve never seen him make a flashy play that he COUDL have made simpler just to show off. Bottom line is, 31 other starting 2nd basemen in the league would simply take all of those balls and leave them as infield hits. No one would say a word because they would think “No way to make that out”. BP goes between his leg or off the seat of his pants, turns a hit into an out, and people complain about it. Yeah, I’m sure other managers hate it because he’s robbing them of hits and he’s doing it with a huge grin on his face and getting famous for it.

      That’s a fair point, because I can only remember one or two plays where BP made one of his slick fielding gems and then threw the guy out by 10 feet. And on those plays, it could have been the case where he didn’t realize how much time he had to try to get the runner, so he rushed even though he didn’t need to.

  24. BP is probably more like the guys on the BRM in the way he carries himself on the field than any other of the current Reds. No one here ever heard that Pete Rose was considered a hot dog in his day? Or seen replays where the Bench stare down was obvious? And Joe and Tony had their edgy ways of letting the opponents feel their superiority too. Lots of smiles all around on the field by those guys. It was obvious they were enjoying themselves as they beat the living daylights out of folks.

    The biggest difference I see between then and now was that the actual execution of the plays wasn’t as demonstrative. For instance, infielders didn’t hold the ball before throwing to force guys to keep running, things like that which we see now didn’t happen much then. And there was nearly so much celebration after a hit of big defensive play.

  25. Just saw where Ludwick and Madson declined the mutual options on their contracts with the Reds. I wonder what the market will bear for each of them?

    • Just saw where Ludwick and Madson declined the mutual options on their contracts with the Reds. I wonder what the market will bear for each of them?

      Everyone knew Ludwick would decline. He already said he’s very interested in working out a multi-year deal with the Reds. He wants to stay, he’s just earned a slightly longer deal. I’d be fine with 3 years, though I’d prefer 2 with an option. Doubt he’ll sign for less than 3.

      Madson surprises me a bit. I would have been less surprised if the REDS had declined the option, but I don’t know what Madson thinks he’s going to get coming off TJ surgery and missing an entire year when there was barely any market for him last offseason coming off a career season. But who knows. He bungled the negotiations with the Phillies so maybe the guy just isn’t very bright.

      • Madson surprises me a bit. I would have been less surprised if the REDS had declined the option, but I don’t know what Madson thinks he’s going to get coming off TJ surgery and missing an entire year when there was barely any market for him last offseason coming off a career season. But who knows. He bungled the negotiations with the Phillies so maybe the guy just isn’t very bright.

        Now that Madson and Ludwick have declined their side of the mutual options, do they still receive the buyout money?? I would assume yes, but I am not completely up to speed on the new Collective Bargaining Agreement.
        And isn’t Madson due $2MM today, 11/01/2012?? Plus a $2.5MM buyout. Not bad for not throwing one pitch in a regular season game. Let Madson and Borass walk, and get busy signing Broxton back. Take Madson’s money, add it to what Bray (non-tender) would have made, and add in Masset’s $3.5MM (trade Masset) and the Reds can afford Broxton with no trouble. I would also entertain the thought of trading Arredondo this winter to add Cingrani to the bullpen mix for 2013.

        • @WVRedlegs:

          Now that Madson and Ludwick have declined their side of the mutual options, do they still receive the buyout money?? I would assume yes, but I am not completely up to speed on the new Collective Bargaining Agreement.
          And isn’t Madson due $2MM today, 11/01/2012?? Plus a $2.5MM buyout. Not bad for not throwing one pitch in a regular season game. Let Madson and Borass walk, and get busy signing Broxton back. Take Madson’s money, add it to what Bray (non-tender) would have made, and add in Masset’s $3.5MM (trade Masset) and the Reds can afford Broxton with no trouble. I would also entertain the thought of trading Arredondo this winter to add Cingrani to the bullpen mix for 2013.

          Some good thoughts in there. I’m a little reluctant to trade Masset, but something’s go to give. If losing Masset, Bray, and Arrendondo is what it takes to retain Broxton, I’m in. I especially like your idea of putting Cingrani in the bullpen. I’d be very surprised if he is more than a back of the bullpen type guy eventually. Broxton should be the priority and target for closer.

  26. So Mark Simon has an interesting idea:

    The conversation starts with …the combination of centerfielder Drew Stubbs and starting pitcher Mike Leake, but that’s not too appealing considering they were worth a combined 0.4 WAR last season.

    The conversation gets intriguing if …the Reds open the door to some of their more appealing names. Homer Bailey and Todd Frazier seem like unrealistic asks (unless the Reds were in immediate position to sign Wright long-term), but catching prospect Devin Mesoraco would seem to have significant value if the Mets deem him ready for everyday work.

  27. @rfay00: I thought $8.5 mil (11 – 2.5 buy out) for one year seemed like more than I would hope to pay him. I’d be surprised if he got much more… Maybe they think someone will give Madson a 2 year deal despite his injury last year?

  28. @BenL: Boras is always looking to deal his clients for multi-year deals. That’s why I think the Reds won’t be signing him back.

  29. Can anyone explain the “runs prevented” or any of the other defensive stats that claim Barney was better than BP? I’d like to learn a little. I only saw Barney a few times; I watched BP all year, and I’m amazed there was someone supposedly better.

  30. Darwin Barney is a very good second baseman. Not better than Phillips, but he may have had a better year this year. I think he set a MLB record this year for second basemen, by going so many games without committing an error. I think it was 80-some or 90-some games he went before commiting an error. That is hugely impressive for a second baseman. It may have been Phillips’s record that he broke.

  31. I heard on the MLB Network radio that the Reds and Angels are having good trade discussions. It would seem to center on Peter Bourjos and Mark Trumbo from the Angels, and Leake, Redmond, and former Angel Arredondo just to start with, and at least two other high ranking minor leaguers. The Angels are dumping 2 or 3 highly priced veteran starting pitchers and OF’s, and are in the market for SP. Lower priced SP, I would imagine. Greinke is a FA, they just traded Santana and Haren is on the trading block.
    Don’t know much about Bourjos, but Trumbo would be an excellent pickup. He could play 3B or LF with Frazier taking the other spot. Trumbo is probably a reach, but the Angels are dealing right now and open for business. Go Walt. Go west old man, just like last off season in getting Latos.

  32. FYI – Madson declining his half of the mutual option is an extremely classy thing to do. Now apparently he is in discussion for a new contract with the Reds. (The Phillies are in talks as well).

  33. BTW – Bullpen guys coming back from TJ surgery is not as difficult than coming back as a starting pitcher. I wouldn’t mind them trying to resign Madson. Reasons:

    1.) Starters must stick to a 5 day rotation. RPs can go any time they are available.
    2.) It takes longer for a starting pitcher to build up innings. A RP can go 1 inning, or 1 hitter.
    3.) Starters have to get all 3+ of their pitches ready again. RPs typically work on fewer pitchers.
    4.) Starters have to practice both their windup and stretch. RPs usually work strictly from the stretch.
    5.) Moving a RP back and forth from AAA if he is not quite ready at the opening bell is less disruptive for both Louisville and Cincinnati’s staffs than moving a SP.
    6.) A RF can get more side work than a SP who has to stick to a 5 day rotation regiment.

    Negative:
    1.) A RP usually has less time to warm up than a SP.

    Advantage of Madson:
    Madson does not rely on changing arm slots and secondary pitches. He has three primary pitches: the fastball, circle change, and cutter; three pitches which are easy on the arm. The benefit here is that the arm movement is the same on all three pitches, only the grip changes.

    • Jim Salisbury of CSNPhilly.com has a pretty good article regarding Bourn

      http://www.csnphilly.com/baseball-philadelphia-phillies/phillies-talk/Phillies-offseason-targets-Michael-Bourn?blockID=796115&feedID=693

      :arrow: He’s a top-flight defender who can chase down any ball.
      :arrow: He’s a proven base stealer.
      :arrow: He struck out 155 times in 2012, way too many for a leadoff man.
      :arrow: Word on the streets is that Bourn is looking for a huge payday, possibly as much as $100 million.
      :arrow: He hired high-powered agent Scott Boras before the 2011 season to aid in that quest.
      :arrow: He is a “legs” player who turns 30 next month.

      Right now, I’m becoming less and less enamored with the possiblity of Michael Bourn playing for the Reds in 2013.

      • Mark Polishuk at MLBTrade Rumors makes the following observation:

        The Giants have declined their $10MM club option on Aubrey Huff for 2013, buying the veteran outfielder out for $2MM, reports Andrew Baggarly of CSNBayArea.com (Twitter link). The move was seen as foregone conclusion given Huff’s lack of performance over the last two seasons.

        Huff signed a one-year, $3MM with San Francisco before the 2010 season and exploded for a .290/.385/.506 campaign (plus a .957 OPS in 20 World Series plate appearances), helping lead the Giants to a championship. Huff signed a two-year, $22MM contract with a $10MM option for 2013 in the aftermath of his big season but hasn’t produced nearly as well since, hitting just .239/.309/.359 in 674 plate appearances.

        It’s possible that Huff could consider retirement given his injuries, his age (he turns 36 in December).

        Something to consider considering Ludwick’s stellar performance last season and his age (34).

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