2013 Reds

Daugherty Dreams…

From today’s Cincinnati Enquirer, here is Paul Daugherty:

By the time he left here, traded to Texas for some kid pitcher with attitude issues, Josh Hamilton somehow had gone from thrill-a-minute heartwarmer to entitled eggshell. The Reds dealt him for Edinson Volquez, a trade that is just a few floors and a fast elevator from Manhattan-for-beads and Robinson-for-Pappas.

How about we bring him back?

Crazy, you say. Outrageous, risky, irresponsible and entirely unReds-like.

Perhaps. Especially the risky part.

But not entirely out of the question. You want a centerfielder? There’s your centerfielder.

I generally don’t read Daugherty’s stuff (stuff like the shot at Griffey and Dunn makes me crazy because I’d bet he spent close to no time in the Reds clubhouse during the period in question)…but I did read this and thought it might provoke some discussion.

Realistic? Possible? IF possible, would it be a good idea? What are the issues? Do you think the Reds would even consider it? Should they?

41 thoughts on “Daugherty Dreams…

  1. If the Reds were to do this, then they could legitimately be expected to repeat the 97 win 2012 performance. He would be a beast in GABP. Given that there are, as far as I can remember, very few LH SP in the Central, I don’t think too much of the notion of having three lefties in the lineup. Also, I can only imagine what Votto could do with Hamilton hitting behind him.

    All things considered, a one year deal is most likely the deal that Hamilton will take if he comes to Cincinnati. If it happens, it will likely be late in the game and only after he believes that he will get better offers after 2013.

    I sure hope this happens. I suspect the Milwaukee will end up with Hamilton. However, I hope Walt is just devious enough to feign serious interest in a four or five year deal just to apply more pressure on Milwaukee so that they offer above market for Hamilton.

  2. By the way, would someone take down that NLDS Prediction Poll that I have to look at each time I am on the site. It is simply dispiriting.

  3. Hamilton already said he’d go to the place that gave him the most money. You don’t think the likes of San Fran or L.A. wouldn’t give him infinitely more money than he’s worth? The only way the Reds even entertain the possibility is if the market for him dies and the Reds get him for a one year, “show everyone what you’re worth leaving your prime” deal. I agree, he could destroy the world in GABP.

    BUT with all the talk of this team being the closest of any team these dudes have ever been on, bringing in a self-righteous, spotlight seeking star to a small market may not be the best for team chemistry. And by may not be the best, I think he would really hurt the clubhouse.

    If the Reds want to go for a splash move, finding someone to fill in left more permanently may be the way to go. They said they won’t listen, but I don’t believe them at this point, but Carlos Gonzalez may be able to be had from the Rockies. We all know about Justin Upton and his availability. Nick Swisher would be a more likely option in free agency than Hamilton is. Plus, we’ve got Billy Hamilton almost ready for the jump. Sometime next year, unless Stubbs is just lights out all year, we could see B-Ham up and Stubbs on the trading market by the deadline.

    The trade route would be a tough one because of what would have to be given up. I don’t imagine Billy Hamilton being dealt when he’s this close. Likewise, I’m not sure Didi Gregorious would be included in a deal, but maybe he would for an Upton or CarGo. One of our pitching prospects(Cingrani, Corcino, Stephenson) would likely have to be in any deal.

    All things considered, I think the Reds should make a run at Swisher, bring him back to Ohio, plant him in left for 3 or 4 years. He can bat anywhere in the lineup, and being a switch hitter means matchups don’t matter. The only thing with Swisher, is that he is undoubtedly going to get a too-big contract because of the lack of depth in the free agent market. Pipedream.

    • All things considered, I think the Reds should make a run at Swisher, bring him back to Ohio, plant him in left for 3 or 4 years. He can bat anywhere in the lineup, and being a switch hitter means matchups don’t matter. The only thing with Swisher, is that he is undoubtedly going to get a too-big contract because of the lack of depth in the free agent market. Pipedream.

      Not sure Swisher is the answer if your issue is with clubhouse chemistry. I’ve heard (and obviously I’m not in the clubhouse) that the Yankee players can’t stand Swisher.

  4. I would be shocked if the Reds went out and made a signing like Hamilton. I see a more likelihood of a trade starting with Bailey and Stubbs for a top tier OF. Bailey has finally started to reach his potential but will be demanding a higher arbitration number. Stubbs still provides value even with his pathetic K rate but is also reached the arbitration level so his value begins to go down. Right now would be the time to package those two and move Chapman into the rotation in Bailey’s spot. There will have to be others involved, but the package would likely start with those two.

  5. Pitching and defense, pitching and defense.

    Our smartest bet to keep winning into the future is to use our scarce dollars to lock up Latos, and to a lesser extend, Bailey. Find those releivers (Madson) in a saturated market and get them for below market value. Leverage your pitching prospects (Leake, Corcino) to pick up the hitting you need from teams who have outfielders to spare (Marlins, D-backs) or those who are totally rebuilding (Twins-Willingham).

    To me, Hamilton would signal a return to the Griffey days of being unserious about winning. Besides, there’s no way we have the money to pull off even a one year deal.

  6. Hamilton is a great player, but his injury risk is more than a team like the Reds can afford. I see Hamilton in LA or NY, where old overpaid players go to play…

  7. @rfay00: I believe that Hamilton would take less on a multi-year deal to go to Milwaukee. Obviously, the Reds will not give (even) a three year deal to Hamilton. IF Hamilton could be had for a one-year/15 million dollar deal, I could not imagine Walt not jumping at the chance to add this much offense to the club with no long-term strings attached.

  8. Nah.

    Even in the article, they say Hamilton is an old 32 years old. To me, he is a ticking time bomb waiting to go through his “Griffey Years”.

    Plus, yeah, he wore out his welcome in Texas with his melodrama and every little molehill being turned into a mountain, and I don’t think the Reds need that in Cincinnati. The Reds are a no drama/no ego club, something Josh Hamilton definitely does not adhere to.

    The numbers are fun to dream about, but the reality is it has way more chances to backfire than it does to work out. The money would be much better spent elsewhere or internally to lock up the talent we have.

    • Nah.

      Even in the article, they say Hamilton is an old 32 years old. To me, he is a ticking time bomb waiting to go through his “Griffey Years”.

      The numbers are fun to dream about, but the reality is it has way more chances to backfire than it does to work out. The money would be much better spent elsewhere or internally to lock up the talent we have.

      CI3J: Totally agree. The Junior deal would look good in comparison. Has anyone seen Hamilton play CF recently ? I don’t mean the muffed fly ball against the As. A few days before that, he dropped a pop up that was hit right to him and whiffed on a ground ball that he didn’t even charge. Apparently something was still wrong with his eyes. There’s so often something wrong with him.

      But I admit that I’m afraid he’ll sign with the Cardinals and hit 50 HRs a year.

  9. The Reds aren’t trading Homer Bailey. I would almost guarantee that with the way he’s pitched lately. If anything, he’ll be extended sometime next season.

    • The Reds aren’t trading Homer Bailey. I would almost guarantee that with the way he’s pitched lately. If anything, he’ll be extended sometime next season.

      This.

      My belief is that the Reds are very happy with the team chemistry/character and will not want the baggage that Hamilton or A-Rod, etc. bring. I don’t anticipate any major deals.

      • Personally, I don’t care if 130 RBIs and 40 HRs acts like the love child of Jack Parkman and the lady from Fatal Attraction. There is just something about winning that seems to create “chemistry.”

        This.

        My belief is that the Reds are very happy with the team chemistry/character and will not want the baggage that Hamilton or A-Rod, etc. bring.I don’t anticipate any major deals.

  10. Screw it, go all in. Sign Hamilton and put a package together to get Ellsbury or Granderson. Ahhh a fan can dream. I think the most realistic option is to try and rework a deal for Ludwick which I find to be risky if its more than a one year deal and maybe get a guy like Pagan to patrol center for a year before Bham is ready to go. Not sexy but we were good enough to win the World Series this year and I dont think a huge shakeup is necessary. However if my first sarcastic suggestion were to happen I would lose my mind.

  11. Chemistry is probably overrated by sportswriters and fans, but that’s not to say it’s not important at all. Having Hamilton on the roster might work if Rolen were around, but I’m not sure it’d be a good idea otherwise (this is leaving money out of the equation). From what I’ve heard from people who were in the clubhouse regularly back then, the other players (particularly the good black players who had trouble connecting with Cincinnati fans) truly couldn’t stand Hamilton and were jealous of the attention he received after squandering his talents to smoke crack. Plus, his injury history and age are legit concerns.

    I’d rather save the money and lock up Bailey and Latos.

  12. What was the Reds achilles heel in 2012?? It was lack of offense or lack of timely hitting. Even when Votto was healthy and 100% this was the Reds most glaring problem. Hamilton’s offense could get the Reds over that offensive hump. I would play him in LF though. The Reds need another LH bat and Hamilton brings a BIG LH bat to any lineup. Hamilton’s private life can use a small market atmosphere. Dallas-Ft Worth didn’t work too well for Hamilton, so why do some fools think Hamilton would go to LA or NY?? The Reds gave him a chance to get back into baseball. Maybe he re-pays them some with a FA signing. For a slugger of Hamilton’s type, what better ball park to hit in than GABP?? Remember Hamilton got a late start and he may want to put up some gaudy numbers to pad his career numbers before it is too late. There are other things than just $$$ when it comes to signing a FA Hamilton.
    PS–The Yankees will be dumping alot of old worn out players and their contracts this winter and may make a huge push to sign Hamilton. But would Hamilton want to play in the non-stop glare of NY spotlight?? Probably not.

  13. Anyone have a link to the Daugherty comments about Griffey and Dunn?

    I just want to read them to add to my growing hatred for him. I don’t need them to prove he’s a jerk. We don’t need a Steelers fan covering the Reds and Bengals in Cincinnati.

    • Anyone have a link to the Daugherty comments about Griffey and Dunn?

      I just want to read them to add to my growing hatred for him.I don’t need them to prove he’s a jerk.We don’t need a Steelers fan covering the Reds and Bengals in Cincinnati.

      It’s in the linked article.

  14. Anyone else find it interesting that the man who likes to talk about clubhouse and locker room “cancers” from one side of his mouth is advocating for the signing of a man who if we are to believe the scuttlebutt already wore out his welcome in the Reds clubhouse previously and apparently has done the same in Tejas from the other side of his mouth?

  15. The last chapters of the Josh Hamilton story have yet to be written, and there’s no guarantee that story will have a happy ending. The trends don’t look so good.

    It would certainly be interesting. But I wouldn’t do it.

  16. Apparently there are others not terribly fond of Daugherty. A good writer, but one I usually avoid due to an often overlay of sarcasm regarding Cincinnati sports.

  17. I try not to read articles from people who know less about baseball than my girlfriend’s 5 year old daughter.

  18. Sorry but at what the cost would I just don’t see it returning enough value. I think we have seen the best of Hamilton. I really think Walt will trunk Ludwick to a 3 year deal for around 21-24 milion and that will be about it this off-season.

    • Hamilton’s too risky. I keep thinking that Angel Pagan would be a nice FA signing.

      Pagan certainly had a share of good hits that did damage to the Reds this year. Then he topped it off with the diving inning ending catch in the bottom of the 8th of game 5 of the NLDS which likely saved the game and series for the Giants.

    • Hamilton’s too risky. I keep thinking that Angel Pagan would be a nice FA signing.

      Pagan’s been hugely impressive in the post season. Great defense and he’s a good hitter, and a switch hitter. But wouldn’t he want a long term deal ? And isn’t Billy Hamilton probably the Reds CF in 2014 ?

      • @RKReds:
        @pinson343:

        Hamilton’s too risky. I keep thinking that Angel Pagan would be a nice FA signing.

        Pagan’s been hugely impressive in the post season. Great defense and he’s a good hitter, and a switch hitter. But wouldn’t he want a long term deal ? And isn’t Billy Hamilton probably the Reds CF in 2014?

        Yes, Pagan would be a great option and upgrade for CF, but also yes, he will require too many years and too much $$$ to sign as a FA. If the Reds go after a FA CF and Torii Hunter is available, I like him as a better fit than Pagan or Bourn. He’s 37 so a long-term contract shouldn’t even be a question and he will certainly want to go somewhere with a real shot at the post season.

  19. I am like several others in that I think Hamilton’s time as a Red should remain in the past tense but I would hate to see him end up anywhere else in the NL Central except maybe Chicago.

    The Reds should spend their money on a true CF who fills their offensive and defensive needs and who will play 130+ games.

  20. I’d consider moving Leake and Gregorius to Arizona for Upton, then move Bruce to CF. If both Chapman and Cingrani can be moved to the rotation, then I’d also consider moving Bailey for a middle of the order guy, either a corner OF or 3B.

  21. Here’s a thought: Since Oakland just traded for Chris Young, I wonder if we could land Coco Crisp as a stopgap solution until/if Billy Hamilton is ready?

    He makes 7 million, so the A’s would have to pay some of that, but it might be worth a shot.

    • Here’s a thought: Since Oakland just traded for Chris Young, I wonder if we could land Coco Crisp as a stopgap solution until/if Billy Hamilton is ready?

      He makes 7 million, so the A’s would have to pay some of that, but it might be worth a shot.

      I’ve never been a big fan of CoCo Crisp. His career OBP is .329, compared to Drew Stubbs’ .312. Is that a big enough upgrade? True, Crisp strikes out much, much less. But unless you’re giving up next to nothing in a trade, and also getting Oakland to pay part of his salary, couldn’t the Reds pay Stubbs much less for the same production?

      • I’ve never been a big fan of CoCo Crisp. His career OBP is .329, compared to Drew Stubbs’ .312. Is that a big enough upgrade? True, Crisp strikes out much, much less. But unless you’re giving up next to nothing in a trade, and also getting Oakland to pay part of his salary, couldn’t the Reds pay Stubbs much less for the same production?

        I think it’s somewhat misleading to use career stats when talking about Stubbs, because he is not the same player now that put up those stats.

        What I mean is, for every year he has been with the team, his stats have been trending downward. Drew Stubbs is not the kind of guy that, when the season starts, you can say “You have a pretty good idea what you’re going to get from him” like you could with more consistent producers like Joey Votto, Brandon Phillips, and….Yes, Coco Crisp.

        This past season, Crisp had an OBP of .325 vs Stubbs .277. Crisp is also signed to just one more year, perfect for our situation. Yes, I don’t want the Reds to give up much to get him, and I don’t want to pay his full salary, but if things worked out, I think it might be worth looking into. The A’s might agree to a trade like that to clear up their logjam in the outfield rather than just losing Crisp for nothing next offseason.

        • This past season, Crisp had an OBP of .325 vs Stubbs .277. Crisp is also signed to just one more year, perfect for our situation. Yes, I don’t want the Reds to give up much to get him, and I don’t want to pay his full salary, but if things worked out, I think it might be worth looking into. The A’s might agree to a trade like that to clear up their logjam in the outfield rather than just losing Crisp for nothing next offseason.

          Co-Co Crisp is a lockerroom cancer. One of those “Its all about me” type of players. Just the type of player that is NOT needed in the Reds clubhouse chemistry. A big NO on CoCo Crisp.

  22. Here’s an idea: Bailey and Henry Rodriguez for Alex Gordon from KC. He’s a gold glover in left, another left handed bat, can bat leadoff, second, or fourth and is a stud. The Royals have that Myers kid waiting and a need for pitching. According to ESPN, they’d be willing to move Billy Butler or Alex Gordon for pitching. Bailey’s value may never be higher, and even though I’d be perfectly okay with not moving him, I’d be okay with this move as well. I don’t know the money, but it can’t be that big of an issue. If Leake is necessary, maybe we’re looking at a rotation of Cueto, Latos, Chapman, Arroyo and Cingrani. I’d be quite all right with this.

  23. Let’s think about history here. The 1970 Reds won the NL Championship and then lost to the Orioles 4-1. Tolan went down in 1971 and we were horrendous. Bob Howsam pulls off the Joe Morgan trade. We returned to the World Series and were one Gene Tenace home run and a Joe Rudi catch from winning that series. In 1973, the Reds lost to the Mets in the LCS who got hot at the right time. Did Howsam make a big trade? No. The Reds were somewhat competitive in the 1974 season but did not make the playoffs. Again no major moves. With that being said, timely hitting is needed. Will the Reds’ young hitters mature and rise to the occasion in 2013? I think that Mr. Jocketty will stand pat during the off season. I would expect some “adjustments” but we would be crazy to trade Homer Bailey unless we were getting the house and the kitchen sink in a deal for him.

  24. @icee82: So you are suggesting that the Reds have 5 guys on the team right now, who, by the end of their careers, will be Hall of Famers, or at least in the discussion? No they don’t. They have one in the discussion now in Votto. If Bruce continues to mash homers, he maybe too. And BP might be in a small discussion at some point because of his glove. But surefire HoFers? No. We don’t have a Rose. We don’t have a Morgan. Votto is as close to Bench as we’ll get and Bruce is a poor man’s Perez at this point. Maybe BP is Concepcion. To me, 2012 offseason is the ’73 in your history narrative.

    It would be perfect for the Reds to make a move and land a guy to bolster their offense, because they can. We have an abundance of pitching. We have good prospects that are major league ready. And we have a chance to make our team better. With the opportunity there to make the team better, you take it. You make your team better. Because the Reds are flawed. We relied on a man who needed a career jumpstart, and we’re lucky we got it. We relied on a career back-up catcher, who walked to his place behind the plate everyday with excellence, and we’re lucky there too. We relied on 2 rookies most of the year, and were lucky that neither broke under the amount of pressure the Reds put on them. And we still trot out one of the worst starting center fielders in all of baseball, who is an atrocity at the plate and perhaps the most overrated defender in all of baseball. Because he’s fast.

    The team is flawed. We could use upgrades in center and left. We could afford to bring in a third basemen(Chase Headley?) and use Frazier in left or off the bench. The Reds were lucky this year. The Machine in the ’70s wasn’t lucky. They were dominant-good.

  25. Sign Bourn to play center if money permits, then get somebody on a one-year deal to play left field. If it’s Ludwick, great. If not find somebody else. Then by 2014, when Billy Hamilton is ready for the major leagues, put him in left and have a batting order of something like Hamilton, Bourn, Votto, Frazier, Bruce, Phillips, Hanigan and Cozart.

    2013 would still have Bourn, Phillips, Votto, Ludwick, Bruce, Frazier, Hanigan and Cozart.

    Just unsure how much money the Reds might have available to make a move for Bourn depending on how much Walt will spend in arbitration, or to go longer term and buy out some arbitration years …

  26. In 1973, Dick Howsman made a very nice trade. He acquired a 1-7 Freddie Norman from the Padres. Norman went 12-6 for the Reds in 1973 and went 7 straight years with double digit wins for the Reds. I would count that as a significant move. Norman was a solid #3 or #4 starter on the BRM days. They had of course, Don Gullet, Jack Billingham and Gary Nolan to go with Norman.

  27. It sounds like the Diamondbacks once again are exploring the possibility of trading Justin Upton. Or, if they keep Upton, they may trade Jason Kubel.

    IF Upton is available, do you go after him? Homer and Gregorius for Upton? He’s young but he’s already owed quite a bit for the next couple of years. He has the tools to be a superstar, but it seems like he’s grown stale in the desert and may just need a new environment.

    With the way Homer pitched at the end of the season, it’s hard to envision the Reds parting with him. But, if there is any thought at all of going all in and making a move to better this team even more for the next couple of years, the Reds are going to have to give up someone valuable to get a valuable piece in return.

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