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It’s an off-day, so here’s an open thread to discuss whatever you’d like. I want to begin with a quick project, first.
I have two brothers who currently live in China. Earlier this afternoon, one of them emailed me and said they were sitting up (it was 2 AM at the time, over there) and discussing the Reds, as Dotson boys are wont to do. Anyway:
Basically we’re trying to come up with a definitive list of recent history Reds that came up in the franchise, only to go on to be awesome for other teams. Like Paul Konerko or Paul O’Neill.
Can we get Redleg Nation to crowd source this or what?
Sure!
Give us your thoughts on this, or any other topic on earth…
Depending on what you define as “recent”…Frank Robinson
Trevor Hoffman
Jeff Montgomery and B.J. Ryan come to mind.
Boo wallowing.
I’m not sure if Josh Hamilton counts but it’s the same spirit.
And Aaron Boone certainly DID something awesome.
Trevor Hoffman
Edwin Encarnacion and Adam Dunn, although a small sample size so far.
I wouldn’t count Dunn. He had more success in Cincinnati than anywhere else.
Does is surprise anyone else to see a strong argument can be made that Ryan Freel was better than Drew Stubbs over his first three seasons with the Reds?
Freel, ’03-’06, 421 Games: .274/.368/.384/.752 96 (OPS+), 8.9 WAR
Stubbs, ’09-current, 461 Games: .244/.316/.395/.711 89 (OPS+), 5.9 WAR
Free never played in more than 75 games in a season again after ’06… Chad’s question about people successful after the Reds all of a sudden made me think “boy, I don’t miss anyone like Ryan Freel..”
I miss Ryan Freel. He was my favorite Reds player but was never fully appreciated by the team. It’s probably not a tribute to the Reds that (with a ~.370 OBP and ~35 steals per season) he is probably the best leadoff hitter they’ve had in the past decade.
No, it’s not surprising. Freel was 27 years old when he made the big leagues to stick. Stubbs was 24.
Most players who don’t make the majors until 26-27 are out of baseball by 33. (I’ve been wondering whether that’s applicable to Todd Frazier).
David Freese is a player (relevant but unrelated to the Reds) in the same boat as Todd Frazier. He made his MLB debut at age 26 and I don’t get the impression that he’s nearing an early retirement. I don’t think Frazier is either.
@Chris Garber: Yep or maybe he turns out more like Warren Spahn.
Freel runs a camp here in town and just got hired to coach Baseball at a small catholic school here in St. Augustine Fl.
Konerko came over in a trade with the Dodgers. He didn’t really come up thru the system. I don’t recall if it was in the Danny Jackson trade or not. Maybe it was a little after that. John Franco might be one. He did have some success in Cincy before moving on.
@Jared:
Eric Davis did some nice things in LA afetr being in Cincy. The bulk of his career was with the Reds, though, so I think he is in the same category as Dunn.
Ask that question a year from now and we’ll probably be lamenting Grandal and Alonso.*
*Still for the trade, however.
john wetteland
Quote of the day.
When asked about playing Frazier at SS or RF to get him bats, Dusty Baker responded “You see how close our games are, we can’t just give away outs”
Josh Hamilton. Although not drafted by the Reds, Sean Casey. He only played a year at Cleveland before coming the Reds for 7 years. Hit .322 his final season with Red Sox. Sell out.
Dan Wilson comes to mind…
scratch wetteland, missed the part about those that came up with the franchise
jeff montgomery
Since Konerko was acquired via trade, and wasn’t with the Reds very long, I wouldn’t include him in this list.
However, someone in a similar vein as that would be Bret Boone. Played a few years in Cincinnati, but had his better years later with Seattle after being traded.
Trevor Hoffman is a good one to include, as he was not protected in the expansion draft and never played a game as a Red.
I like BJ Ryan as an somewhat obscure candidate as Johnsw mentioned above. He actually did play in one game as a Red before getting traded to Baltimore for Juan Guzman at the trade deadline in 1999.
How about Kurt Stillwell? Though I guess he falls short of the “awesome for other teams” part. His first two years with KC were good.
@Matt WI: The way Cueto tried to bunt for a hit and ran his ass off the other day made me think of Freel. In a “this guy is willing to do whatever it takes” sort of way.
i think the big one could have been Kal Daniels…the guy just hit but couldn’t stay healthy. i was 15 when he was traded, so that may have been a driver for being dealt.
Bret Boone.
Brett Tomko had a long career as an innings eating, only 3 with Cincinnati.
Jeff Russell
Mike Cameron? Not sure if he counts, dmitri young had some good years in detroit.
@redsfanman: Ouch!
Small sample size – Jeremy Horst
Good bench hitter – Ben Broussard
@redsfanman: I think the team appreciated him, but I think like Ryan Hanigan, Freel played best when he didn’t play every day. For Freel it was his all out play that made him more prone to injury and wear & tear playing everyday. I think the second half of 2006 after Kearns was traded and Freel was forced onto the everyday lineup exposed that. He was a great 4th/platoon outfielder, though.
I agree that Freel was best when he wasn’t used every day (in some ways like a predecessor to Chris Heisey), but when he was in the lineup he provided the Reds with a decent leadoff hitter who was capable of consistently reaching bases and stealing bases. That, even in a part time player, isn’t something the Reds have had since he left. Memorable diving plays into the stands, excellent showmanship. and a great deal of success all made him fun to watch.
Billy Hamilton might be the Reds’ first good leadoff hitter since… Ryan Freel? Or how far back do you have to go back to find a Reds leadoff hitter better than Freel?
Tomko makes me think of Mike Cameron. He’s another outside the scope of the question, but he had some decent years after his time in Cincinnati.
John Franco.
@Greg Dafler: Yes, plus Freel almost killed poor Norris Hopper.
Jeff Montgomery and Jeff Russell were names I was trying to dredge up from the ol’ faulty memory bank – I kept thinking “Jeff Reed… “
We’ve actually been very lucky in terms of not giving up a lot of the ‘homegrown’ talent. The one’s that come to mind are all closers (Franco, Montgomery, Hoffman).
The majority of the guys the Reds have given up haven’t really upped their games upon leaving. In recent years, I hated seeing Kearns & Dunn go, but hopefully the Alonso/Grandal/Boxbarger and Wood departures wind up like those two trades.
Until recently, they haven’t had a lot of homegrown talent to give up. They had terrible drafts for about a decade that left the farm system with little talent. Little talent for the Reds and little talent for other teams. It’s not until recently that the Reds have had so much young talent at one time.
Dan O’Brien was hired as the Reds’ GM with the goal of rebuilding the farm system from scratch. It’s unfortunate that he was fired before it pays off, in the long run he was very successful. Wayne Krivsky also. In hindsight both did a much better job than in their short times with the Reds than Jim Bowden ever did.
The problem is that the Reds didn’t produce much homegrown talent for 25 years.
Paul O’Neill
Reds have never had a Cy Young winner.
They have never traded for one. I’m not sure if Tom Seaver won the Cy Young with the Mets or not but he wasn’t the reigning Cy Young award winner when the Reds got him.
They have never traded a future one away.
Willie McGee came up in the Reds organization. Had a good career with St. Louis. Did he ever actually play for the Reds?
@RedForever:
You must be thinking of somebody else; McGee was drafted by the Yankees before hitting the big-time with the Cards. He was never in the Reds system.
That’s right. i’m not sure why I thought he was in the Reds organization.
Reggie Sanders
I suppose his years with the Mets disqualify him from this discussion, but I’ve always found it interesting and unfortunate that Randy Myers was the first member of the Nasty Boys considered expendable yet he easily had the best career.
I guess hindsight is 20-20, but damn it!
Sorry, but this got me geeked, so I had to sneak a peak off Baseball-Reference. Draftwise, have had success at not letting guys go. Here’s a few since the inception of the amateur draft:
(67) Chris Chambliss (won ROY); (72) Ron Hassey (serviceable career, only catcher (at one time) to catch two perfect games (Barker & Martinez); (78) Otis Nixon; (80) Danny Tartabull; (82) Bobby Witt; (88) Paul Byrd; (01) Nick Markakis (never knew he was picked by Reds – 35th round!); (05) John Axford (our loss, our gain!)
Picked but not signed, right?
Both Paul Konerko and Sean Casey spent time here in Indy with the Indians when the Reds AAA team was here. Well at season end the tribe put all the jersey’s up for sale and I couldn’t decide which one to buy, well I went with Casey. A season or so later at a Redsfest when a HUGE snow storm hit, I was able to get Casey to sign the jersey and talk with him because there was like maybe 100 people at Redsfest due to the snow storm. He couldn’t believe I had purchased his game worn AAA jersey but was more then nice to sign it, take pictures with it and such.
Joaquin Andujar had some pretty good seasons, including back-to-back 20 win seasons for the Cardinals. Never played an inning for the Reds though; they traded him to the Astros for a bag of broken bats in ’75.
Curt Flood. But that was hardly recent – he was signed two years before I was born.
No, wait… that IS recent!
Curt Flood is an infamous one, because it’s been claimed thru the years (I don’t know if true) that the Reds traded Flood to the Cards because they were worried about their fans’ response to an all-black OF of Flood, Pinson, and Robinson. That would have been an OF for the ages.
A few weeks back I had the chance while on vacation to check out a couple newer ballparks and get an inside tour of a classic ballpark.
My first new ballpark was Citizen Bank Park in Philly. Not only did I get to see a great game (Phillies vs. Cards) and watch the Phils win. As for the ballpark it’s very nice, the views are good, there is a section in CF where their version of the HOF plaques were and around the stadium they had tributes to a number of different players. What I thought was cool was on two different parts of the ballpark they had former Phillies meeting with fans and signing autographes. On this night one of them was Von Hayes. The ballpark is open and very nicely set up and has easy access to the Philly mass transit system as we parked downtown and took the subway out. Overall while not the best ballpark I have been in (that goes to Citi Field) the Phillies park is a great place to see a game.
My next visit was to see “New” Yankee stadium. WOW…talk about bland, boring and not impressive. Yes the area in CF is neat, but that is about it. Their so called “HOF” inside the concourse area is a very small room with not much. Cool part about it was an autographed Tony Perez jersey as they had a section dedicated to Hispanic players in MLB. But overall the rest of their HOF is bland. The upper concourses are narrow and well prices are like Wow. Overall there ins’t much to ‘NEW” Yankee stadium that would ever lead me to return to see a game there unless the Reds were playing.
Lastly I was able to tour Wriggly in Chicago when the Cubs were heading to Cincy to play. With this we were able to go into both team clubhouses, up to the press box, into the Cubs dugout, onto the field, out into the bleachers and such. It was interesting to see just how small the visitors clubhouse is, and not how much bigger the Cubbies one is. But a chance to go into the rooms where Pete Rose, Johnny and other members of the Reds hung out before games was cool. I love seeing a game at Wriggly no matter who is playing, but a chance to go behind the scenes to see everything is cool.
Nothing, and I mean nothing beats an evening at a ML or minor league ballpark in my opinion, and we have a almost new state of the ART football stadium here in Indy..and sorry it’s no where as cool as a baseball ballpark.
http://www.lobshots.com
Check them out. I e-mailed them about the Corn Field Portrait and he posted it. Funny site.
Charlie Leibrandt went on to post a 30.9 WAR and finish 5th in Cy Young voting in 1985 for KC.
Check out http://www.baseball-reference.com/draft/index.cgi?team_ID=CIN&year_ID=1997&draft_type=junreg&query_type=franch_year
You can see a history of every player drafted by the Reds and their career stats, starting with WAR.
These are all “older” names from 60′s and 70′s:
Claude Osteen
Tommy Harper
Mike Cuellar
Mike Caldwell
Cesar Tovar
Lee May
I’m a huge fan of the Latos trade, but I think Yonder Alonso will be an answer to this question in two years. Have to give up good players to get a great one, though.
Aloso is the next Chris Dickerson.
Aroldis Chapman.. we got some years out of him as the best closer in the league, but then he left us, became a starter like he should have been with us, and went on to win 4 Cy Young and 1 MVP awards.
God Bless America, that better not come true. Because it very well could the way things are going.
Hal McRae- even though it was as a DH.
John Franco had one of my favorite quotes- Closing games in the big leagues is a lot like landing airplanes. A successful effort rarely warrants notice and a failure is considered a full-scale disaster.
anyone guess where jeff montgomery is from?
Paul Janish
I was bummed about how short Cody Ross was a Red even though he didn’t come up with them.
Just read on MLB.com that Charlie Manual benched Jimmy Rollins for not hustling to first on a popup. Rollins basically claimed he is pacing himself over a 162-game schedule. Apparently Old Charlie wasn’t buying it and put Rollins butt on the bench so he could get some much needed rest. I like it. Interesting.
I’m not sure about picks like John Franco – he was just as good for the Reds as he was for the Mets. The Reds got Randy Myers, the Nasty Boy closer, in return. There were no surprises in terms of how either performed after the trade.
But sure if Frank Robinson is going to be included, Franco should be.
Late to the party, read the blog daily, first time commenter. Any topic on Earth, huh? Ok, I enjoy a single malt & a fine cigar as an adult every bit as much as I did PB&J as a kid. Just goes together like ramma-lamma-lamma and lamma-lamma-ding-dong.
@redsfanman: Bret Boone did not come up with the Reds organization. He was with Seattle before and after his playing time with the Reds.
Reggie Sanders was not better with his many other teams than he was with the Reds.
But he did play for a number of playoff teams after leaving the Reds while meanwhile the Reds dropped out the role of being a playoff participant/ contender.
@redsfanman: Dan O’Brien invested heavily in the farm system and Wayne Krivsky continued that trend and made some excellent trades (also some bad ones). They were both hamstrung by cheap ownership. I agree with you in terms of liking both of them more than Jim Bowden.
Neither of them would have done as good a good a job as WJ has. And neither of them has been asked to interview for a GM position elsewhere.
Sean Casey did not come up with the Reds and his best seasons by far were with the Reds. But I agree that the trade of him for Jerome Williams was a Dan O’Brien dud.
Pokey Reese……….kidding
@pinson343: On Flood…. wasn’t his eventual challenge to the reserve clause also starting to percolate around the time the Reds traded him?
And a few years after Flood, Robbie would be painted as an “old 30″ and sent packing infamously as you so aptly put it
how about Brett Boone…even tho it was aided by other things
@OhioJim: Is the success of the teams that he played for relevant ? I thought we were talking about the performance of the player.
I think you are right on the original premise. I was suggesting that perhaps folks saw Sanders’ post Reds performance in light of the success of the teams he played on versus the lack of success of the Reds who by and large and been contenders during his tenure in Cincy.
@De_Here: Bret came up with Seattle.
@pinson343: I’m aware but he didn’t get his real shot until he was traded to the reds
@OhioJim: Flood’s challenge to the reserve clause developed when the Cards tried to trade him to the Phils many years later. As a minor leaguer, no way that Flood was seen as a threat to the reserve clause.
@pinson343: OK on Flood, I was just a small town boy then who was trying to make sense of things that didn’t make sense until I was much older and learned much more about the world.
@De_Here: Brett was the starting 2nd baseman with Seattle before being traded to the Reds.
You’re right that in his 2nd time around with Seattle, he was obviously “aided by other things.”
@OhioJim: Just a small town boy, huh ? Me too. Reminds me of a song.
Didn’t see it anywhere above so I’ll throw in that the Nats crushed the WLB tonight. If the Nats can take 3 of 4 or sweep in that series and the Reds win at least 2 in Houston, the NL Central could be all over but for the official countdown of the magic number.
Love to have a 10 game lead with 25 to play.
Speaking of Freel, someone’s username here is Farney. I simply love it.
I love that too. Farney posted the other day, was thrilled to hear from him (or her).
Speaking of the Cards, their only run in the last 3 games came courtesy of a throw by Ryan Zimmerman that would make Edwin Encarnacion wince.
@dn4192: Thanks for your park tour. I agree with you about Citizens Bank (there many times) and the new Yankee Stadium.
I still haven’t made it to Wrigley, that’s a must.
It’s sad, other than some closers and Reggie Sanders, there hasn’t been squat out of the Reds minor league system from 1990-2000.
Da Meat Hook Young is one who had success elsewhere, if you want to count him…
Dmitri came up with the WLBs (even though they weren’t really WLBs at the time).
@BJ Ruble: Not just by chance. Marge Schott said scouts were a waste of money and took apart the Reds once strong scouting and development system. Bowden went along with it and things didn’t change until Dan O’Brien.
The Reds typical number one draft pick during this period was a pitcher who would ruin his arm before he made it to the majors. The problem there was both scouting and development, probably. Another first round pick: Branden Larson.
Tidbit – in 7 years with the Reds, BP has played along-side 21….. yes, 21 different SS. Yikes!
@WVRedlegs: very few nice things…he quickly got into trouble out there with Strawberry ie. firecracker incident.
@hydeman: That’s cool. I’m glad I looked him up, my memory didn’t really tell how good he actually was for awhile.
Cincinnati
St. Louis: 8.5
Pittsburgh: 9.0
Also, as the Tribe continue to lose, the availability of Manny Acta goes up. Just sayin’.
Why would the Reds want Manny Acta??? They have a manager who has “managed” the team to the best record in MLB despite himself and despite having the lamest batting coach in MLB. Just asking. I just don’t get it when it comes to the love affair some on here have for Acta. What has Acta accomplished as a manager???
If you are interested in a new manager, lets not go Acta’s way. Lets throw some money Buck Showalter’s way. He has done a tremendous job resurrecting the Baltimore Orioles. A yeoman’s job to say the least. Maybe he would put a boot up some players rears and get them going again, i.e. Stubbs and Bruce.
@WVRedlegs: For one, he has a significantly more profound understanding of strategy related to OBP. I don’t know… if he’s a schmuck of a guy than it’s not worth it, but I’ve not heard any complaints from Tribe fan friends that Acta is not well regarded. I’d wager if Dusty were at the helm of the Tribe, things wouldn’t be a lot better… it’s a young team with a small core of talent. I’d settle for Acta as a bench coach with strategy related authority… now that would be out of the box thinking.
Dusty: “Manny, quick. Big time. Help me out here. I’m a stranger in these times and don’t know how to change the lineup. It says here, SS or CF bats first. How can I change that? Is that even allowed?”
@WVRedlegs: For instance… the OBP of the top 3 hitters for the Tribe in yesterday’s game:
Kipnis- .327
Cabrerra- .336
Choo- .365
For the Reds, that might look like:
Phillips- .335
Frazier- .354
Votto- .465
I like how the math works out. It’s not even on the same level of risk of daring to try Chapman as a starter. You don’t even have to change the players on the roster. Just reorder them. There is NOTHING to fear here.
I just know it’s not meant to be:
.287
.287
.335
Boy, this got off-topic fast.
1. Christy Mathewson
2. Frank Robinson (although he was great for the Reds)
3. Trevor Hoffman
4. Paul O’Neill
5. John Franco
Caveat on the relievers is I don’t think a closer is all that important to a team.
Steve
Would Franco really count? If I read the original post correctly, it’s about players who came up through the Cincy system, then moved on to good things. But Franco was a Dodger farmhand when the Reds acquired him for the immortal Rafael Landestoy in 1983. But if you’re including guys who played in Cincy & then went on to great careers, by all means he belongs on there.
That’s right, I forgot Franco was brought in via trade. Although he never played for LA, just a few years in their farm system. Not sure if that counts. Just looked at Franco’s minor league stats, not very good. This day and age he probably wouldn’t get a call up. Steve
Speaking of Reggie Sanders, isn’t he a Reds Hall of Famer?
Edwin Encarnacion. I realize its really only been 1 season, but I’ll take his 2012 over Rolen’s.
Pete Rose, Mariano Duncan and David Wells. Rose is obvious, I’d say, even though he came back. Duncan and Wells, like Paul O’Neill, went on to play really well for great Yankees teams and each won at least one World Series. I think Duncan hit .340 for the Yankees (not sure of the other stats that most of you guys are into, but I’d bet that his numbers were better than decent). Wells not only pitched well for a few more years with the Yanks, but also tossed a perfect game.