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Let’s recap tonight’s titanic struggle….
FINAL
Cincinnati 5
Philadelphia 12
W: R. Halladay (7-7)
L: M. Leake (5-8)
BOX SCORE
POSITIVES
–The Reds scored five runs off Roy Halladay. Why couldn’t they have done that in the 2010 playoffs?
–Jay Bruce reached base four times: 3-3 with a double, a walk, and two RBI. Bruce is finally heating up, and it couldn’t happen at a better time.
–Chris Heisey went 3-4 with a double, a run scored, and an RBI. Brandon Phillips had two hits and two runs scored.
–Todd Frazier didn’t even start the game, and he STILL got on base twice in two plate appearances (a hit and a walk). He’s a beast.
NEGATIVES
–The Reds pitchers allowed 12 runs. That’s the most they’ve allowed in a single game all season long.
–Mike Leake gave up ten hits and seven runs in four and a third innings. Ugly outing today for the young guy.
–Sam LeCure, Jose Arredondo, and especially Logan Ondrusek were pretty bad out of the bullpen.
–Some goofy baserunning tonight, especially by Chris Heisey who somehow failed to score from second on a Jay Bruce double.
–If you include the 2010 postseason, the Reds have lost 15 of their last 16 games against Philadelphia. That’s bad.
NOT-SO-RANDOM THOUGHTS
–Let’s just forget about this one, shall we?
–Logan Ondrusek seems like an awfully good guy, and I don’t mind having him in the bullpen, throwing middle relief. I really hope Dusty Baker doesn’t use him in late-game situation anymore, though. He isn’t dependable. Walks too many guys.
–I’m serious: let’s forget about this one. See you guys and gals tomorrow.
Source: FanGraphs
Ph*ck the Phillies. Yeah, it’s not classy, but neither is that city or its fan base. Jeesh, I hate these guys. Yeah, H-A-T-E.
You wonder if its a mental thing for the Reds when they play the Phillies.
Maybe Dusty will finally realize Ondrusek is a middle reliever and Sean Marshall is a setup man. Arredondo and Logan walk too many guys to be 8th inning guys. Not holding breath…
How many times over the years have those 5 words resulted in wishful thinking?
Momma said there’d be days like this. I missed most of this game. Once I started getting an urge to put my beer through my television, I turned it off. Here’s to tomorrow, ladies and gents.
Whoa boy howdy. Go into this series worrying about 3 ace pitchers and end up giving up more runs than we have to any team the whole season? Against a stripped down club with 3 legit major league hitters on the roster? We’d better get it together or we’re welcoming St Louis in this weekend on the heels of a 4-game losing streak.
A number of the Reds debacles versus the Pfils over the last several years have actually been close hard fought games that either the Pfils found ways to win or the Reds just plain did not close when they had a chance to. So, I am not ready to panic just yet.
The Padres are 3 up on the Pirates half way through that one. Hopefully the Pads will prevail; and, the net loss for the day will be half a game to the WLB.
The Reds need to keep after things and not make it easy for the Birds or Bucs but time is on the Reds side now and an extra opponent for both of the chasing teams every night when they take the field.
John Fay says in his blog tonight that apparently a decision is close on the timing of Mesoraco’s appeal or if I read his inferences correctly maybe MLB may be floating an offer to drop the suspension to one game just to get the matter cleared.
http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/2012/08/20/update-on-mesoracos-case/
The part I don;t get is all the angst about getting another catcher (presumably Navarro) up for the term of the suspension.
Yes, they will be playing with 24 men while the suspension goes on; and, yes, anyone sent down to make room for the substitute catcher will have to stay down for 10 days (barring an injury).
This said, is it really that tough to play short a pitcher like Ondrusek for 3 days to make room for Navarro then when Meso comes back to option Navarro and bring up Hoover who at this point is probably preferable to Ondrusek anyway???
There are some positives to take from this. One is Dusty’s choice of mopup relievers – he did not use Braxton or Marshall or (obviously) Chapman. Those 3 guys will be ready for closer games. The Phils have a LHed dominant lineup and Marshall and Chapman can shut them down. The Phillies bullpen is weak, all the Reds need to do is stay close.
The Reds did not go with their A lineup, which is just as well in that the game would have turned into a rout anyway. They did manage to score 5 (should have been at least 6) against Halladay with their B lineup, and now 4 guys in the A lineup have gotten a day of rest.
All the same, Bailey and/or Arroyo have to come thru here. The Phils lineup is not as potent as it used to be, just pitch well. Even with Cueto pitching, can’t count on a win against Hamels.
@OhioJim: The Reds view Ondrusek as a vital piece in the bullpen. Hoover is probably preferable right now but they don’t view it that way.
@pinson343: Agree right down the line.
The resilience to come back and take the lead after blowing it once was also a positive. It wasn’t the fault of the Reds offense they lost tonight as it has often been against the Pfils.
I am so sick of Marty’s crusade against Jay Bruce. What is his problem? He doesn’t even make an effort to appear objective. He has been the same way with certain past players too.
Volquez helped us out with 6 2/3 strong innings vs Pittsburgh tonite.
LVW; Right, he struck out 10. If the Padres hold on, Volquez has done us a solid. The Pirates have to be weary, 19 innings and then flying to SD.
@Jason1972: I’m tired of Marty’s crusade against Bruce too. When Jay is slumping, it gets vicious. He talks about the other team disrespecting Bruce, when he’s actually just projecting his own feelings.
Drew Stubbs also. The other day Marty went on a rant about Stubbs’ stupidity when he was doubled off first on a line drive. Brantley interrupted and said Stubbs had done nothing wrong. I watched the video, Brantley was right.
That does mean Stubbs has been deserving of any lashing. Even after his recent surge, he still isn’t up to last season’s batting debacle.
@pinson343: IMO, Stubbs and Bruce are the two most athletically gifted guys on the team. Marty probably sees them as underachievers and I don’t believe that is exclusive to him. Some of us that hold that belief have come to accept this fact and just appreciate what we have, rather than expect what is not there.
People are who they are and seldom change their level of ambition, beyond a certain age. There are exceptions but rare. I love Marty but I wish he would take a “little” lighter approach to these guys. In their minds, I’m sure Bruce and Stubbs are giving it all they have. In my mind, they do take AB’s and sometimes games off. It really makes me appreciate all the more a guy like Mike Trout, who is not only incredibly talented but plays smart and very hard Trouts are like needles in haystacks. Very hard to find. I would recommend to all enjoy the benfits of Jay and Drew but live with the limitations. I don’t think they are going to change but are valuable to the club.
yay, Bucs lose … hope that’s a pattern for the next week or so …
His comments about Bruce yesterday were unprofessional bordering on offensive. There was a time when I’d have my TV on mute and the WLW broadcast team tuned in while I watched the game. Now I only listen to him when I have to.
Everyone said the games in Philly would be a good sample of how The Reds would do in the postseason. So far I am heartened. The offense did pretty well against Mr. Halladay. Unless something very bad happens, Leake will not likely be pitching in the postseason so I don’t take much away for his performance last night.
@Jason1972: This is nothing new for Marty. He was the same way with Adam Dunn.
So Mike Leake is suffering from the Verducci Effect? Is that what that’s called?
I’m certainly not thrilled with the pitching performance, but the hitting against Halladay was encouraging, especially considering the lineup was gutted. The one thing that simply jumped out and hit anyone upside the head, hard, who is willing to take notice, was the performance of Heisey against another RHP. I’ve made the point before but it is so obvious and so significant, I’m making it again. Drew Stubbs kills LHP. Drew Stubbs flounders against RHP. Chris Heisey hits LHP merginally. Chris Heisey hits RHP pretty good. Those trends and results have been consistent.
Drew Stubbs *** vs LHP **************** vs RHP:
2010 *** .240/.310/.479/.789 *** .262/.338/.427/.765
2011 *** .319/.418/.478/.896 *** .226/.298/.338/.696
2012 *** .288/.330/.529/.859 *** .205/.282/.327/.610
Chris Heisey ** vs LHP **************** vs RHP:
2010 *** .169/.242/.303/.546 *** .321/.389/.536/.925
2011 *** .197/.258/.295/.553 *** .271/.324/.541/.865
2012 *** .262/.304/.477/.781 *** .283/.323/.385/.708
Just compare the average yearly OPS for both players.
Stubbs: .848 v LHP & .690 v RHP
Heisey: .626 v LHP & .832 v RHP
Even this year with Heisey’s OPS against RHP down from the previous two years, it’s still .100 points highr than Stubbs. With a strict L/R platoon in CF, the Reds could have not only a reasonable top of the order contribution from the CF position, but an excellent top of the order contribution from the CF position and have another effective PH with speed and power available from the bench. That’s the one thing I do not want to “just forget about this one”.
OK, I’m through venting again and I feel better. Time for another cup of joe.
@rfay00: Probably more like the ‘anti-gravity’ effect. None of his pitches were down in the zone.
I agree with Pinson, last night’s game provided some clarity with our relievers. Sometimes winning masks the flaws of a team. In this case, Ondrusek and Arredondo. You have to believe one, if not both, are on the hot seat given the performance of Hoover and the imminent return of Bray. Dusty will have a lot of weapons at his disposal come September. You gotta like that there will be a heated competition to see which relievers make the postseason roster.
Rhetorical question—why does Cesar Izturis, who owns a higher average/OBP/OPS than Wilson Valdez, get DFA’d yet Valdez still has a job?
@Sultan of Swaff: I wasn’t able to watch the game, but I believe you in regards to Leake keeping pitches up. He has been doing that a lot this year.
Here is the answer to your Valdez question – Valdez has playoff experience.
And he can pitch…
Valdez and Cairo continue to suck up potential offensive production. There is no justification beyond “experience” for keeping either or both around.
There are guys in AAA and who have been DFA’ed or released who inarguably offer more in every other category of contribution.
EDIT: There are guys in AAA and ‘guys’ who have been . . .
@BloodyHo: Good post. I was railing about the same thing at the trade deadline—about the need for a lefthanded bat to complement Stubbs in CF. I guess that’s what’s so frustrating about this situation and the bench, that there are upgrades and remedies available in trade and the minors, yet management buries their heads in the sand. I’ll say it again, they trust a pair of rookies to man half the infield all season, yet they’re the first to trumpet ‘veteran leadership and experience’ when assessing an underperforming player. Sorry fellas, you can’t have it both ways. Performance is all that matters.
I was watching the game last night and Chris Welsh, whom I normally like because I think he knows the game more than anyone else that announces the Reds (by far) and also because he shoots down Thom Brennaman’s idiotic comments (lol), was talking about Valdez and how he was on the Phillies when they made the playoffs and now he’s on the Reds. He said something to the effect of “He’s been a good contributor for the Reds this year. Say what? I’ve heard Welsh criticize players before so I was shocked to hear that. How can anyone who has seen the Reds play for five months think that?
MMMMMM Boy, the caffeine is kicking in and the kids are all off to school. I feel like getting a couple other things off my shoulders now.
Heisey, what were you thinking!?!?!?!? I thought maybe the shot that Bruce hit off the wall was hit so hard that it wasn’t a legitimate double until I reviewed the replay. Bruce was standing on 2B when the ball reached the relay from the RF. There was absolutely no excuse for Heisey not scoring from 2B on the double by Bruce. If Heisey scores, runners on 2B & 3B with no outs and the Reds up 2-0 against Halladay. Maybe the Reds still lose the game but that was a BIG mistake.
Ludwick and Frazier both out of the lineup for the same game? Mr. Baker what were you thinking!?!?!?!? Ludwick, Frazier & Phillips all need a day off during the Philly series, no doubt about it. Resting Ludwick (.000/.000/.000) against Halladay in favor of XP was a good decision. Sitting Stubbs (.200/.250/.200) against Halladay in favor of Heisey (.500/.500/.750) was a good decision. Frazier hits everybody and everything, but not so much Cairo. Frazier should have played 1B yesterday. Man would I have liked to have seen Frazier up after Bruce in the 1st inning! Cairo has simply killed Lee (.421/.476/.632) and Hamels .400/.400/.800). Rest Frazier against Lee & rest Phillips (.156/.182/.281) against Hamels. These are all night games against Philly so Rolen should be good for all four games. Quit giving games away games by resting half the productive starting lineup on the same day, over & over & over!
Here comes the first bus home. I’m outta here.
I completely agree! Why does Dusty rest 2 and 3 players at a time instead of rotating them? It’s lunacy.
Agreed as well. But if you’re not already used to it, better brace yourself for much, much more. Didn’t Castellini just say a few days ago that he wants Dusty around for many years to come? Whatever the exact wording was, I find it quite deflating …
I don’t have a problem as much with that but when does he do it. If you are going to do something like clear the bench, you should probably be doing it when we have the series clinched with a game left, like we recently had (I believe it was the Mets), not in the first game of a series.
@pinson343: I am on the same page as you and Jason1972 on this. Not only does he really get down on some players, his opinion affects the opinions of the fans that listen to him. Marty is a terrific play-by-play announcer. How he handled the head-shaving bet and what he did for charity was also first-class all the way. I used to run into him fairly regularly when I lived nearby and although I never spoke to him at length, he was also cordial and always smiled. Why can’t more of that personality show through on his radio work these days? Was it the years of calling games for a bad Reds team? All I know is I can barely listen to him with all his negativity and that’s a crying shame.
@Sultan of Swaff: “Probably more like the ‘anti-gravity’ effect…” That’s one of the funnier things I’ve read on here in a while. Nice one!
Leake absolutely has to keep the ball down and only elevate for effect (out of the zone) in order to be productive. His stuff just isn’t good enough for him not to be locating and he wasn’t locating very well last night.
@Sultan of Swaff: Izturis is also a better defender IMO.
Just wondering how many heads here will explode when Dusty inks another 2-3 year deal?
I wonder, with all the stupid moves Dusty makes, how did this team get to the record they are at, and doing it since Mid July without Joey Votto?
Obviously, they would have at least an .800 winnning percentage without him screwing them up twice a week at least.
For all his warts, this year (so far) is not a real good one to be waiving the FIRE DUSTY flag.
Chance Discovery: The Frazier-Dusty Divide?
From the preview for tonight’s game:
The Reds probably didn’t anticipate this kind of production from Frazier.
“It’s hard to say what you expect because you don’t know what to expect,” Baker said. “He’s been one of our top prospects for a long time, and you really don’t know what to expect when a guy has an unconventional, non-orthodox way of hitting. But it works for him.”
@rightsaidred: Yeah, that’s a backhanded compliment if ever there was one. As a former hitting coach, he should be the first to recognize a player’s ‘style’ prior to the stride foot landing is unique to every player. Once that foot lands, everyone is the same, including SuperTodd. If by unconventional he means Frazier lets ‘er rip with <2 strikes and cuts down his swing w/ 2 strikes, then yes, he's unconventional. Of course, conventional is relative, and relative to a league where productive at-bats are given the same standing as strikeouts, he's an outlier.
@Redgoggles: I don’t care what kind of year the Reds are having, I truly don’t understand some of the things he does which seem like he’s putting the team at an unnecessary disadvantage. Most of the time I chalk it up to him having more information than me and the fact he played with Hank Aaron and I didn’t. But there are times that common sense seems to fly in the face of his decisions.
I have no doubt he is an absolute gem of a manager where we don’t get to see him operate, else the players wouldn’t be so devoted to him. That said, I am in favor of him getting his extension. Especially if that keep David Bell out of the Reds dugout.
Or Tony LaRussa. Talk about a board meltdown.
I think I need a shower after reading that comment.
The thing we sometimes forget is that he has access to much more information then we do and he takes into account the human element which I don’t think some here do.
@TC: Just curious because I played with David Bell and thought him a decent guy and a guy who knew a little something about baseball; why don’t you care for him? I’m not saying I want him as Reds manager, just more a matter of being curious as to why you seem to dislike him.
@rightsaidred: Dusty would have had Ichiro riding the bench in his first year in Seattle. He had an unconventional approach to hitting, how could you know what to expect?
Geez, there are still a bunch of people unhappy about Monday night’s lineup after they scored 5 runs off Roy Halladay. ROY HALLADAY. The Reds scored a bunch of runs against him, I thought people would be impressed.
It seemed to me like a disappointing performance by several Reds pitchers, yet Miguel Cairo seems to be getting a lot of blame.
Somebody here disapproves of David Bell. I don’t want somebody with the reputation or history of Jim Riggleman. Some fans won’t want a rookie manager like David Bell. Some fans want a former star player like Barry Larkin after Mike Matheny had been hired in St Louis. Some won’t want a washed up veteran like Terry Francona. Some won’t want a minor league guy like Rick Sweet taking over this contending team. Some want a guy who is harder on players. Some need the team to be led by a white guy, whether they admit it or not. There’s no perfect manager who’s going to make everybody happy. I think the Reds have done well with Dusty Baker and Castellini is making the right decision by keeping him.
@dn4192: I think most of Dusty’s strongest critics (and I count myself in that group) are resigned to the idea that he’ll be offered a contract extension unless the Reds collapse. And I’d even admit that he deserves it, if the team wins one round of the playoffs. A two-year extension seems the most likely outcome as things stand. There are two scenarios I’ve been thinking about in relation to Baker’s rehiring, though.
1. Suppose the Reds lose/lose badly in the first round of the playoffs? Would that change the assumption he would be rehired?
2. Suppose some other club makes Baker a really expensive offer? It’s possible that even though the Reds like Baker, their desire to extend him is driven more by the “how would it look if we didn’t” factor more than the “just gotta have more Dusty” factor. If another team makes a strong offer, maybe that takes the Reds off the hook. Maybe Baker overplays his hand trying for a third year or a raise.
I’m no expert about Baker’s parting ways with the Giants. What I’ve heard is that Baker was still popular in SF but that the Cubs offer was just too big for him to turn down.
@TC: Love the avatar.
@BloodyHo: Nice argument. It will be interesting to see who starts in CF against Worley tomorrow night. Maybe Baker has switched to a platoon. I think Stubbs is a better all around player (power, speed, defense, walks) but those hitting numbers make a pretty compelling point.
@LWBlogger: Think of it like giving the keys to the Porsche to a 16 year old. I realize he hasn’t had much talent to work with at Louisville, but I really don’t want a guy who manages a last place team in AAA with he worst record in the Independent League to skipper the Reds in the National League.
@Steve Mancuso: It may be entirely possible the Reds are waiting as a favor to Dusty. This is pure speculation, but what if Castellini said, we’ll extend you 2 years at the same salary regardless, but you are welcome to see what your market value is first.
The Louisville Bats’ final game is on Monday, September 3rd. What’s that, 14 days away?
If they promote Hoover he’ll be eligible for the postseason roster. Masset would be eligible anyway if he’s activated from the DL in September, right? Then they could leave the 5th starter (Leake) or a long reliever (LeCure) off the postseason roster? Does Masset’s rehab stint end before September 3rd?
@Steve Mancuso: Thanks by the way.
Career stats for Jay Bruce:
Batting average: .257
Bases empty: .253
Runners on base: .263
RISP: .250
Bases loaded: .250
Jay Bruce may not be the player some of us hoped he would be yet, but you just can’t fairly make the case that over his career he has trouble with so-called clutch hitting – even assuming that’s a defined skill, which it isn’t. Bruce has the fourth most home runs in the National League. And the sixth most RBI in the league. To hear Marty and others talk about it, you’d think he was sixth on the Reds.
@TC: Fair enough on David Bell
@Steve Mancuso: RE: Bruce… I fully agree!!
Tonight’s lineup. Standard post-Votto lineup except Hanigan catching Bailey.
Cozart 6
Stubbs 8
Phillips 4
Ludwick 7
Bruce 9
Rolen 5
Frazier 3
Hanigan 2
Bailey 1
Possible reasons Mesoraco may be sitting:
A. It’s the start of his suspension.
B. It’s Baker saying that Hanigan is swinging a lot better bat.
C. Mesoraco is banged up.
My guess is A. So do we call up another catcher or risk only going with Hanigan? Got to believe one of the AAA catchers will get called up.
C, they said they activated Dioner Navarro and sent Logan Ondrusek to AAA. I didn’t see that one coming… Ondrusek being shipped out. In retrospect it isn’t much of a surprise. It’ll be interesting to see who returns sooner, him or JJ Hoover.
I was at the game on Sat night and was wondering why the Reds picked Redmend to start? Also it would have been nice if the Reds had kept Tomko around and then called him up, he had been pitching well in AAA, and now he is a Diamondback…
Mesoraco serving two game suspension. Navarro called up. Ondrusek sent down. Per Sheldon:
So what happens after the two days? Logan can’t come back up for 15 days, do they call up Hoover or what will they do?
It seems like JJ Hoover is the obvious solution. He’s pitched well in AAA and nobody seems happy with Logan Ondrusek lately. Or they could stick with an 11 man pitching staff until September.
Two questions for the group here..
1. Will we see Roger Clemens pitching in the major leagues this year?
2. Should Melky C. get a longer suspension because he tried to fib his way out of his testing positive?
I hope so. I’ve always been an irrational Clemens fan. I’d love to see him back pitching – as long as he doesn’t embarrass himself physically.
Glad to see you you are a Clemens fan too. I feel the same, as long as he doesn’t embarrass himself. Let him have a go at it. He is not the Rocket Roger of old though.
As for Jay Bruce, you know I am NOT a fan of his, but I am glad to see him start to hit. Like you said, it couldn’t have come at a better time. Over his career, Bruce will get hot for only a short spell, maybe 3 to 3 1/2 weeks at the longest, then he goes as cold as he was hot. My question is, will Bruce maintain this hot streak over a period of time, or should we expect Bruce to cool off drastically here in a week or so, like he has every other time in his career he has gotten hot??? The Reds don’t need him going cold at the last half of September heading into October.
This means Ondrusek won’t be eligible for the postseason roster.
Thank the lord for small miracles. Christmas in August. This guy has been brutal since June 1. About time they sent him packing. What took so long??
Masset might get called up instead of Hoover, once Mesoraco is back. I think the limit on Ondrusek’s return is 10 days, not 15.
I thought anyone sent down had to stay down for 15 days?
@dn4192:
I wondered this last night……or is Masset ready? Does this also mean Ondrusek is not in the (hopeful) post-season plans?
I figured they would DL Lecure, and bring up Masset or Hoover whenever the fill-in catcher went down. Hope Bailey/Arroyo have at least 6 in them or the bullpen is going to be somewhat short after last night.
Hoover makes the most sense because of playoff eligibility, but there’s Bray also.
Public school math, folks.
I think (since today is the 21st) Ondrusek will be eligible to come back on the 31st, the day of eligibility.
At the risk of sounding impetuous and since it is coming to that time, there are no “playoffs” in major league baseball.
Not to worry… Even ESPN gets that one wrong.
The playoff roster is comprised of all the players who, as of August 31 are (a) on the active roster of 25 players, (b) on the disabled list, (c) on the suspended list, (d) on the bereavement list, (e) the military list. So this pool might have 25 players, 27 players, 30 players, etc. depending on how many are (b-e).
Each team has to designate 25 players for each playoff series from that pool. If a team advances to a second (or third) round of the playoffs, they can adjust their roster.
If a team has an injury in the middle of a series, they can replace that player but it must be with a player of the same position and the injured player cannot return to subsequent playoff games.
So, it does look like Ondrusek won’t make the post-season player pool, unless something happens (injury) that allows him to come back from AAA sooner than the 10-day limit. Tricky stuff.
Actually, my mistake… I forgot, there is now a one game wildcard playoff in each League.
Just wondering…those here if you were running the Nationals…what would YOU do with Strausburg?
Shut him down. Team looks to compete for many years there are 3 other pitcher in the rotation who will do very well in the postseason.
@dn4192: I am very happy I don’t have to make that decision. I think they needed to limit his innings by skipping him and keeping his pitch-count low over the course of the season but they haven’t really done that. Now they are faced with shutting him down… I think if I were running them now I’d have to look at what his pitch-counts were and how often he’s had to work under duress. If I don’t see too many 100+ counts and I don’t see much work under duress, maybe I try to get by on skipping him so that he’s working every 9th or 10th day. Most probably however I’m going to see a good share of 100+ pitch starts with him working out of a few jams and out of the stretch a lot. If that’s the case, coming off his injury and with such a young arm, I think I’d have to shut him down completely.