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Let’s recap today’s titanic struggle….
FINAL
Cincinnati 4
Chicago 2
W: B. Arroyo (8-7)
L: J. Russell (5-1)
S: A. Chapman (27)
BOX SCORE
POSITIVES
–Excellent outing by Bronson Arroyo: eight innings, two runs allowed on five hits. Arroyo was shaky early, but he settled down and pitched superbly.
–The beat goes on for Todd Frazier: 2-3 with a walk and an RBI. Brandon Phillips was 3-5 with a double and two runs scored. Ryan Hanigan had two hits. Ryan Ludwick collected two RBIs on a double.
–Aroldis Chapman was Aroldis Chapman. Great.
NEGATIVES
–Zack Cozart and Drew Stubbs — who hit at the top of the lineup for some reason — struck out three times each.
–Baserunning blunder by Ludwick cost the Reds a run in the eighth. Fortunately, they didn’t need the run, but we’ve seen some shoddy baserunning at times this season.
NOT-SO-RANDOM THOUGHTS
–Two wins in a row!
–Nice outing for the Cubs by our old friend Travis Wood: seven innings of one-run ball. The Reds couldn’t get any traction until the bullpen took over.
–Reds try to take three out of four tomorrow afternoon, with Johnny Cueto on the mound.
Source: FanGraphs
Man thats a fast recap!
Mets and Cubs next week, they be good, I just wish Cozart and Stubbs woulf take some pitches, that one strike out by Cozart was awful
We will be making our annual visit from Syracuse next week for the Cubs series. Any interest in a Nation get together at Morleins or Rock Bottom before the Saturday PM game?
Phillips was 3/5 with a double and 2 runs scored. 1 of the 2 plate appearances he did not reach base was an 8 pitch at bat. That would be a pretty good line for a leadoff hitter. Ludwick & Frazier were a combined 3/7 with a double and a BB. Between them they had 3 RBI. Those would be pretty good lines for the 4 hole & 5 hole hitters. Cozart & Stubbs hitting #1 & #2 were a combined 2/10 with 6 SO. There aren’t a lot of options until Votto gets back but once again the obvious is sitting there in plain sight for anyone willing to look.
Padres up early again, 2-0 over the Pirates.
@BloodyHo: The problem is the guy who makes the decision isn’t willing to look. It’s getting more and more frustrating watching Cozart and Stubbs in the 1 and 2 spots. Also Valdez/Cairo hitting before Hanigan/Mesoraco every time they play is maddening.
@Larry1980: You’ll need to be more specific.
Pirates losing 5-0 were getting no hit, if they lose tonight its 6 out of 9, I think last night was the turning point for them, where they revert to being the Pirates, any body agree?
For now I will settle for them making 9 outs before they score 5 or more runs….
@Larry1980: I’d still hate to see them in a playoff series. We’d send Cueto out against Burnett, Cueto would throw a complete game and give up 2 runs and we’d lose 2-0.
Bit early to say Pirates are flopping. You could say the same thing about the Reds the last week or so. Teams are always going to have ups and downs as the season goes. Cards are looking like they’re putting some games together right now.
Yet they were destroyed by Roy Halladay last night…
@OhioJim: Pirates scratch out an infield single in the 7th but do not score…..
the last 10 Reds position player rookies to get over 2 WAR in their rookie season
obviously there is lots of season left for our two rookie position players to increase their total
WAR
5.2 Austin Kearns (2002) 3rd in ROY voting
4.0 Votto (2008) 2nd in ROY voting
2.9 Reggie Sanders (1992) 4th in ROY voting
2.6 Josh Hamilton (2007) No ROY votes??
2.5 Norris Hopper (2007)
2.3 Adam Dunn (2001) 4th in ROY voting
2.3 Chris Stynes (1997)
2.2 Hal Morris (1990) 3rd in ROY voting
2.0 Todd Frazier (2012)
2.0 Zack Cozart (2012)
Is it just me or does anyone else still get irrationally angry that Votto didn’t win ROY in 2008?
Yeah I felt he shoulda beat out Geovany Soto
Soto did have a GREAT season but I think Votto’s was a little better
Overbay is a good OBP hitter and a LH bat, for which the team is in short supply (on both counts). Since he has been designated for assignment, he doesn’t cost the Reds any prospects – only what they agree to pay him for the rest of the season. When Votto returns, Overbay can be a LH bat off the bench. Plus he presents another option for the playoff roster in case Paul goes south.
No shame in getting beat by Halladay. Just saying even if the Pirates go down a bit it doesn’t look the Cards are going anywhere yet. We just need to keep going till Votto shows back up then finish strong at this point. Get some rest for our starters maybe, it’s hard to say if the recent fall off has been due to arm stress or just a series of bad games.
So to pick up on the “Votto situation”…. Count me among those that think they need to make a player move. I don’t think it matters whether it is a 1B or 3B type. Frazier is good to go on either corner; and if/ when Votto is healthy the guy is going to sit regardless in favor of Frazier (or possibly Rolen if he returns to health). Mr Jocketty needs to just go out and get the most bang for for the least bucks.
I agree with that, just not at all sure it will happen. I’d even like them to call some guys up from AAA to give them a shot while we’re stretched so thin but that also doesn’t seem likely.
@SirRibShack: and Kearns was robbed in 2002. Jason Jennings?
Its is over over in Pittsburgh. Pirates walk the plank.
Back to a 4.5 game lead then, I’ll take that considering this last week.
When I see Cardinals’s Allen Craig hitting .294/.355/.565 with 17 HR 59 RBI in 269 AB and hitting .384 with RISP and doing this for 500,000 it makes me ask the question, why are we paying Jay Bruce 10 times that much and eventually 10+ mil to do significantly less.
It is the way the system works. In 2 years Craig will cost what Bruce costs or more…
When I heard about the Votto complication this afternoon. the first thing I thought of wasn’t so much the balance of this year. It was the fact that the Reds have $225M~250M tied up over the next decade plus in a guy that probably no matter how well he does won’t be nearly the same player that he was before this injury.
With what we’ve heard so far, I’d guess there is a good chance Joey will have major knee surgery before the main contract kicks in after the 2013 season. Let’s hope they do it preemptively to cut back on or eliminate lost playing time.
And at this rate Craig will still be by far the better value.
This is not an injury or a medical procedure that is going to have any permanent effect on Votto. Honestly I’m not sure where your’e even getting this from. Before this latest complication (which is a VERY minor complication, not a sign of anything more serious) no one was talking like this. Often times after a minor injury and surgery like this a player’s joint will actually get stronger because the rehab builds up more muscle around the ligaments. I don’t see any reason whatsoever to be concerned that this is the beginning of a decline for Joey and frankly I think it’s a little sensationalistic to even suggest it. If had to get something repaired, maybe we could talk, but this was a minor scope and then a very minor followup.
@mike:
Per Baseball-Reference.com, Norris Hopper’s WAR in 2007 was 1.1.
I got my WAR totals off of fangraphs which uses a different defensive metric in their WAR. fangraphs valued Hopper’s defense thru the roof!
@OhioJim: The most frustrating part is that he was obviously playing hurt before the AS Break but they continued to play him. If they sit him then does his knee get this bad? I feel like the obvious answer is yes but who really knows. It’s just frustrating that the injury seems like it could have been avoided or not allowed to progress to the point of surgery and then a second procedure.
Also I hear from Thom and Chris about how the Reds training staff is “the best in the biz” but I don’t see how. I see other teams DL players the day after injuries all the time but I honestly can’t remember the last time a Reds player was injured and then put on the DL right away. I guess you could say Bray a week or two ago but who knows how long that was going on.
WAR, what is it good for? Absolutely nothing.
HUH! say it AGAIN!
Votto will recover just fine. He works way to hard to let this surgery set him back. I too was a little worried this would be a Junior type career ruiing injury. I love how Frazer and cozart are playing like vets. Gotta love the college drafts.
Votto will recover just fine. He works way to hard to let this surgery set him back. I too was a little worried this would be a Junior type career ruiing injury. I love how Frazer and cozart are playing like vets. Gotta love the college drafts.
@BloodyHo: Been that way all year…every 4 or 5 games the Top twins do well and Dusty figures he told us so…Forget the bad ones just remember the good one!
@rfay00: We were destroyed by Travis Wood….I like Wood but really. We need to get better against better pitching!
@Mwv: The Pirates are losing at PNC Park now 4 out of 6, the Reds lost 4 straight away from GAB
@hydeman: How long have youbeen waiting to say that?
Here’s another stat for Allen Craig: .246/.298/.412 with 4 HR, 18 RBI.
That’s from his age 25 season, the same one Jay Bruce is playing now, on pace for 30 HR and nearly 100 RBI.
The Jay Bruce bashing here has really gone off the deep end.
That was also his rookie year and most of that damage was in April and May when he had a total of 19 ABs. Once he got recalled from the minors after the ASB he hit .284/.330/.484 with 4HR 18 RBI in 95 AB. And not to mention the difference in their home parks………..Great American Smallpark vs Busch Stadium.
@Steve Mancuso: It’s hard to keep Bruce’s age in perspective because it seems like he’s been around so long. I think Jay will probably reach 30 HR, not sure if he’ll quite get to 100 RBI’s. And that’s a very good season. But I think everyone here who has watched Jay come up knows he’s capable of playing better than he has this season. He’s had more down time than up, and it’s difficult not to think about what kind of numbers he could be putting up if he was even having a normally paced season for him. But you’re right, people are too hard on him. I imagine he’s pretty hard on himself. You look across the division at Ryan Braun and Andrew McCutchen who, when they signed their contracts, wer supposed to be Pittsburgh’s and Milwaukee’s Jay Bruce. They’ve both exploded since then and Jay hasn’t really taken the next step since getting his payday.
I’ve said before and I stand by it – before it’s said and done I think Jay Bruce wins an MVP. I’m not sure if that means he’s going to have a terrific career as a whole and I don’t know that it will necessarily happen in a Reds uniform, but I’d bet money it’ll happen one year. It’s just not going to be this year.
@Steve Mancuso: Jay Bruce’s “off year” cound be anther player’s career year.
@eric nyc: What you are saying is the accurate “textbook” prognosis for the primary (index) injury. However Joey is now on his third related injury within 2 months (the index is the slide at San Francisco, the second the reinjury on the slide versus the Cards and now this latest one).
In many cases like this, the “little nicks” don’t stop until there is an operation to “stabilize” the joint. And no, I’m not a Dr. and I don’t know exactly what that means but I have seen many athletes in various sports go down the same road and heard the terminology.
These injuries are not likely to keep him from going on to have a stellar and even Hall of Fame career. That said, he is not likely to nearly the savvy and aggressive base runner he has made himself into. There is also a good chance that his lateral movement will suffer to the point where he won’t be the lights out defensive guy he was also becoming. Finally I’d guess it is very possible that at a much earlier stage in his career he will begin to sacrifice average for power, becoming a 4 or 5 slot hitter as opposed to a 3.
@OhioJim: I just think you’re making a LOT of assumptions. This does not seem to me at all like an injury that should have any lingering effect.
And what worries me most about this kind of talk is that in the very short term, your’e right. When Joey comes back this year he will in all likelihood not play like he did before the injury…when he was having a historic season. And with talk like this, if we fall short of winning it all and see Joey struggle even a LITTLE then we’ll have to spend all offseason talking about whether or not Joey will be the player he used to be. And then the reporters will start asking him that. And does Joey seem lik the kind of guy who wants to spend 6 months answering that question over and over again?
It’s perfectly valid to look at an injury to a great player and wonder what effect it might have down the line, but in this case I think it’s yelling fire when there hasn’t even been a whiff of smoke.
@eric nyc: For me, I guess the whiff of smoke was this latest setback.
Did you happen to catch the replay of it they showed yesterday on the Reds telecast? He was running at less than full speed long the sidelines and sliding onto a padded area they had put down and still managed to pop loose cartlige.
When Kremchek or which ever of his associates did the first scope job, they certainly looked around in there to make sure the job was completed before they cleared him for an aggressive short suspense rehab. So to me that indicates an underlying issue with the entire joint.
Or a freak occurrence. Or pushing his rehab to quickly. If anything that’s what I think caused it. And again, “it” isn’t even that major. Joey Votto does not now suddenly have fragile ligaments in his right knee. He had a random injury, an operation to clean it up, a very aggressive rehab period, and a small setback. I think what you’re experiencing now is just a little panic. It will pass.
Having had a lot of experience with scopes and knees I can say the first procedure was done with three or fewer accesses. This is done to speed up the healing, so the idea of fishing around for floaters was not an option. That would have required more accesses and longer healing.
5 to 6 accesses is 6-8 weeks off, with his being 3-4 it is assumed the doctor used only the accesses needed, thus no searching around for floaters.
When the floater was removed the doc used an old access.
IMO – The doc did his job and the floater was dealt with more efficiently this way that searching around for it with the original procedure. Joey got lucky his floater was within reach with an existing access. The injury was not from a lose knee, it was from jamming it. The ligaments should not have been injured with a straight jam and no distortions.
On a completely unrelated note, I was just watching highlights from yesterday and see the media gushing over Mike Trout snatching another HR from over the CF wall in Anaheim. Why hasn’t anyone brought up the fact that theCF wall in Anaheim is about 6 feet high? I’m pretty sure I could rob a couple HR’s over that wall. Not that Trout isn’t an amazing talent, but Drew Stubbs has made more impressive plays than that a lot this year. I think the catch he made up against the ivy yesterday was a more impressive play.
@eric nyc: Only time will tell and my druthers are you are right but…..
@eric nyc: I don’t think it’s just because he’s robbing home runs on that short fence but I’ve seen a few where half his body was over the top of the fence when he caught the ball. I haven’t seen the one from last night so I don’t know about that one but some of his others were very impressive.
@SirRibShack: Just talking about the one from yesterday. The big one that’s been all over the media all year was a damn impressive play. So was the one last night, just not in the same category and I think a play like the one Stubbs made yesterday is actually much more difficult and rarely gets the same attention.