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It seems like only yesterday when all we had to worry about was Todd Frazier’s playing time, a deluge of sacrifice bunts, Juan Pierre and the incredible disappearing Aroldis Chapman. Where did those far happier times go?
Welcome Nation, to the new, grim reality of obsessing over Joey Votto’s left meniscus.
Obligatory outrage section.The Reds management watched Joey Votto struggle to run, hit and field for nine games on the recent road trip after the first baseman injured his left knee sliding into third on June 29 in San Francisco. That’s not exactly right. Votto was hurt badly enough that Dusty Baker saw fit to give him more than two games off. So, more accurately, Votto played noticeably injured in only seven games on the West Coast. And when our favorite Canadian slugger did take the field, he produced very unVotto-like numbers, zero home runs and one RBI. His sudden slump was another MVP-sized tell that something was wrong.
Yet it apparently didn’t occur to anyone who is responsible for the success of the Reds to ask their $225 million investment to take a simple MRI. Hey, we’ve got a players manager! And apparently a players GM, and training staff and medical team. Leave the diagnosis up to the player. I assume he’ll be doing the surgery himself, too.
Apparently, no one said something like, “You know, we’ve got the All-Star break coming up. Just on the off chance that our most important player has to miss some time, why not have him take an MRI now so that part of his recovery will be over the four off-days. Plus, you know, it might also be nice to see what’s wrong.”
If the Reds don’t have anyone with enough common sense to say something like that, well, they should hire me. Or any of a hundred other citizens of the Nation.
It’s simply stunning that the organization didn’t take a single proactive step out of concern for Joey Votto’s well-being, or more crassly, out of attention to that part of the newspaper where they keep track of wins and losses. Either way.
Enabling Votto’s continued play may have worsened the meniscus tear, made the surgery more serious and lengthened the all-important recovery time. Seriously, if I were the owner of the team, someone would get fired over this. And I don’t mean the team doctor. Whoever has the job of watching our players, using their judgment about whether they’re playing hurt and doing something about it. That person.
If the Reds had acted like a competent professional sports organization, Joey Votto would now be two-and-a-half weeks into his recovery. Yes, the Reds would have had to do without his recent relatively unproductive stretch of games. The National League would have had to do without Votto’s three routine outs. But at least now we’d be close to the end of it. Instead Nation, circle your calendars for August 15 and say your prayers.
The upcoming easy schedule. It’s true that on paper, the Reds have a pretty easy schedule the next 3-4 weeks. Like when we played the last place Minnesota Twins at home. The Reds have three more games against the defending NL West division champions, then three vs. the defending NL Central Division champion Brewers, at Houston, at the always-easy-to-beat-in Colorado Rockies, the Padres, the Pirates, (the freakin’ PIRATES!) and the division-rival Brewers again, in Milwaukee. That takes us three weeks out.
Please don’t write or say that’s easy. You know what schedule was easy? The four-day All-Star break.
BTW, the Reds are 0-1 on the easy schedule, so far.
The surgery and recovery. The surgery to repair Votto’s meniscus is scheduled for this morning. Of course, you have an abnormal curiosity about it. So here’s the Mayo Clinic, the NIH and WebMD, plus a short video of what they’ll be doing to JoeyMVP’s left knee, probably right around the time you’re reading this.
But what we really care about: How realistic is the 3-4 week recovery window? That estimate was peddled by the Reds in a reassuring manner last night. In reality, they can’t possibly know yet. It depends on a number of things, including whether the surgery ends up being a ”trim” (4 weeks) or a “repair” (Pirates division champs). Read this somewhat unsettling line in the WebMD piece on recovering from meniscus surgery:
But heavy stresses, such as running and squats, should be postponed for some months.
Out of sheer horror I’m holding to the belief that being a major league baseball player, and hitting, sliding, fielding, spitting, running etc. would not be considered “heavy stresses” by the interns who write at WebMD.
Other players have had this surgery recently, but there’s not much definitive to learn from their examples, other than there is a great deal of variability. On the optimistic side, Mets reliever Tim Byrdak had the surgery on March 12 and pitched on April 5. But Royals catcher Salvador Perez missed half the season (had to type that three times before I got it right). Travis Hafner had surgery on May 29 and played five weeks later on July 4. Lance Berkman just returned after being out eight weeks. Variation, but I did notice the inconvenient truth that none of those recoveries were just three weeks long.
Bottom line: Reds management won’t have an accurate estimate on the duration of the recovery until after the surgery, if then. Commence holding your breath. And Votto’s recovery could easily be longer than 4 weeks. Raise your hand if you have confidence in the organization’s fitness to estimate and manage his recovery.
The Reds roster. How should the Reds replace Joey Votto? Moderation, not panic, is called for. Assuming he’s only out about a month.
Based on Frazier’s glove skills last night and the way he’s hit all season, pencil Super Todd in as your everyday first baseman and worry more about third. Miguel Cairo can back up Super Todd, if necessary. Absent a move for an additional third baseman, the Reds will be relying on 37-year-old Rolen and 38-year old Cairo (another terrifying sentence to type). Neither has hit well this year and both have already spent time on the DL. The Reds should acquire a solid backup third baseman, they don’t need a regular like Chase Headley. If all goes well, in a few weeks, we’ll want Super Todd back fighting for time at the hot corner.
Votto’s injury removes one of the two left-handed bats in the lineup. At least we won’t have worry about crossing the streams for the next month. While acquiring a backup third baseman would be cheaper than finding a full-time first baseman, the handedness issue is maybe a reason to acquire a first baseman instead, as lefties there are much more common. In terms of Jocketty’s previous agenda from back in the good old days, ESPN’s David Schoenfield points out that Votto’s injury may strengthen the case for acquiring left-handed Shane Victorino.
The Reds lineup. Speculating on the lineup with Dusty Baker as manager always has two distinct parts – what should he do, and guessing the outcome of WWHD.
What should the lineup be? Phillips, Frazier, Bruce, Ludwick, Stubbs/Heisey, Rolen, Catcher, Cozart, Pitcher.
What will it be? You have to think that Baker won’t continue to bat Frazier third, as he did last night. Baker might have been in shock or denial when he did that. Or maybe the team hadn’t had time to replace the preprinted lineup cards showing the first baseman batting third (CF batting first, SS second, catcher eighth etc.). Prior to last night, Baker hasn’t been willing to bat Super Todd higher than sixth, and barely that. Hard to believe the rookie will bat third. Then again, he’s stubbornly used a rookie with an .287 on base percentage to hit lead-off.
On the other hand, maybe last night’s lineup does preview how Baker will approach a Vottoless batting order. Frazier-batting-third was posted at least four hours before game time. My guess is that Baker will return to what the lineup has basically been all year, except for moving Jay Bruce to #3 and sliding everyone below Phillips up. Baker loves lineup stability. Expect: Stubbs, Cozart, Bruce, Phillips, Ludwick, Rolen, Frazier, Catcher, Pitcher.
The word cataclysm means “a momentous and violent event marked by overwhelming upheaval and demolition; an event that brings great changes”
It’s Day One of the Vottoclysm, Nation.
No mention of Bill Bray. He can’t be healthy, can he? (I’m trying to block all things Joey Votto from my mind for a few weeks)
If you are a players manager you do whatever your veterans want. Joey wants to play so leave him in there. Good thing I am not the owner because Walt “Cardinal” Jockety ,Dusty,and our crack medical team would be looking for a new employer this morning
250 million dollar player and you can’t run a cheap non-invasive test . Criminal 
Leave the diagnosis up to the player. I assume he’ll be doing the surgery himself, too.
That was my favorite part. But hey, if anyone can do it, Votto can.
I’ve finished with the crying for now (I’m dehydrated from the effort). All we can do is wish you a speedy recovery Joey.
Jay Bruce… now would be a great time to get white hot.No pressure though.
Jesus, stop overreacting to this already.
First of all, the Reds were not winning with their offense. They were winning with pitching and defense. This was against some good teams. Against weaker teams, they should be able to manage without Votto. It IS an easy schedule, and you have to admit that.
Second of all, as John Fay pointed out:
Minor leaguer Chris Valaika had the same procedure recently and was back in 3 weeks.
Yes, we don’t know if Votto is worse than Valaika. We also don’t know if it’s not as bad as Valaika. But I’m willing to bet, based on other athletes that have had this procedure, 3-5 weeks is a fairly accurate timeline.
Third of all, why WOULDN’T Baker continue to bat Frazier third? As others have pointed out, this makes the most sense since it requires the least amount of lineup shuffling.
Fourth of all, CALM DOWN. Let’s see what happens before we all climb up on the bridge together.
Seriously, it’s gonna be alright.
No it’s “not gonna be alright”. We have not only our best player but one of the top 5 players in baseball out for at least a month maybe more. We have a totall lack of professionalism in how this was handled. Did the Blue Jays wait to get an MRI on their guy this morning? Did the Red Sox wait on their guy last night? What if Votto didn’t say anything and kept playing and did sever damage to the knee, maybe career threatening damage..then what. People need to lose their job over this, this practice of letting the players self diagnose themselves needs to stop.
As an Athletic Trainer, I am honestly shocked that they were not able to get an MRI sooner than yesterday. Now, the way you handle professional athletes may be different than the collegiate athletes that I deal with, but if you feel like there is a problem, you get an MRI. Knees don’t just swell up on a guy that has been healthy pretty much his whole career. Again, maybe somewhere in Votto’s quarter of a billion dollar contract it states that he has to request an MRI before he has one, but I highly doubt that. The organization really dropped the ball on this one.
That being said, depending on the surgery, I could see the 3-4 week timeline working out. If all they have to do is shave some of that meniscus off, he could be back in that time frame. The WebMD recommendations are written for the general population, not the genetic freaks that all professional athletes are. If the procedure is what we hope it is, he could begin rehab as soon as tomorrow with some of the lighter exercises. Again, we don’t want to rush things and screw things up, but I have worked with football players that have come back from that procedure in 2-3 weeks. So it definitely can be done. But, those guys also aren’t worth $225 Million so there is a difference. Now, if they have to repair it, we’d be lucky to have him back by the end of the season, considering he won’t even be able to bear weight for 5-6 weeks. But I don’t even want to talk about that.
I remember a Cardinal trainer getting fired over something regarding Ron Gant (?). To me, this falls on Doc Hollywood. I think I even remember something similar happening before to another player in the organization (Griffey?) I have a son who has had two scopes done due to football injuries (elbow, shoulder. Elbow was done by Dr. Andrews in Birmingham, which was a GREAT experience) and I know management in charge of him (ME) would have had him MRI’ed immediately and we obviously don’t have the resources the Reds do. It’s just inexcusable, and I agree completely that someone should lose their job over it. As a friend of mine who is a Cardinal fan said this morning when I explained the situation to him, “That’s just crazy stupid.”
@ArkansasRedsFan: Great post, thanks.
As far as the actual TEAM goes, I guess we will now find out who can step it up and who can’t. Simple as that. Probably going to be make or break time for Jacoby now, though.
@CI3J: I don’t think you can overestimate how big of a deal having Votto out is. You don’t win with your offense or defense, you win with both. I personally think he could come back to a team that’s still in first place, but you could hardly fault someone for thinking he’ll come back to a team under .500.
Of course, in this division, it’s entirely possible both could be true.
I’m not ready to give up while Votto is out. Look what the Reds did since Votto’s injury. They went 8-4 over the end of the dreaded west coast trip and 3 games against rival St Louis. Yes, Votto was playing but he hit .257 with 0 homers and 2 RBI. I, for one, think Frazier can perform better than that. As long as the pitching stays on track there is no reason this team shouldn’t be near first place in 3 weeks.
You make a good point. I’m hoping that now that he’s OFFICIALLY out that guys like Bruce, BP, and even Rolen step up and put the team on their shoulders. That’s why Rolen’s still here, right? I don’t think you can ask any more from Frazier than what he’s been doing, and he’s probably do for a bit of a downturn anyway just being realistic. Those three, and to a lesser degree Ludwick, are the key to surviving this.
@eric nyc: See your point but I think Drewc Stubbs is the one who steps up. The guy can be no lower than he is right now and sometimes that is not a bad place to be. Nothing to lose, he can do no worse, and exceptions are nil. With the Reds really needing someone(s) to step up, this is Drew’s big time opportunity to take the ball and run with it. He looked very good, at the plate, last night and the best, he has, in “quite” a while. Never even looked in danger of K’ing. I’m pulling really, really hard for the guy and if I’m right maybe we come out of this mess in the same shape we are going in.
If Stubbbs emergence is tethered with a red-hot Jay Bruce, we may even gain a game or two in the standings. Less confident in Bruce because he has already had his super month but who knows, maybe this will prompt him to put this team on his shoulders.
Stubbs has considerably more upside to potentially attain then anyone else on the team. I think this is Drew Stubbs’ time to turn his career around. Sometimes circumstance provides what nothing else can or will. Here is hoping I’m onto something.
@ArkansasRedsFan: Great post. Thanks for the info.
I just don’t know how the head trainer isn’t fired today. I can’t remember his name, but he’s that bald guy with glasses that is in the dugout EVERY day. If Jeff freaking Brantley is saying “Votto looks hurt” on TV every night for 3 weeks, how is that guy not jumping up and down in the dugout trying to get someone’s attention? Even if Votto says he’s fine, that’s not his call to make. The only way it’s not the trainer’s fault is if Bob Castellini himself said “Listen to Votto, no MRI.”
I’m going to brace myself for Votto being out until September 1. That may be pessimistic, or it may be optimistic. Guess we’ll know more soon. But if we play .500 ball between now and then (I think that’s doable with our pitching staff) is that going to be enough?
Problem is we don’t know what the medical staff did or didn’t say. Maybe they went to Dusty and Walt and said he needs an MRI and both said they spoke with Joey and he says he will be okay. I do agree someone needs to be fired, but unless we get all the info, there is no way to know.
Wait, we don’t know what they did, and there’s no way to know…
…but “someone needs to be fired.”
You’re all over the board here, guy.
No, Joe Fan will never know, but I would hope that the owner would look into and get answers. If I was Bob I would be speaking with the medical staff, Dusty, Joey and Walt. When I have all my information…then I give out a pink slip.
The guy had what he thought was a minor injury. He tried to play through it, just like Phillips and the hamstring earlier this year. Dusty followed a similar pattern, giving him more days off and whatnot.
Will you all stop with this “someone needs to be fired” line? Some people miscalculated, including Votto himself. No one knew how serious it was, because in watching the play it looked routine. If you have ever played sports, you know lingering aches and pains are part of it. It just turned out this lingering ache was worse than others.
No one needs to be fired. Votto just needs to get healthy and the Reds needs to hold the fort until he gets back.
Not panicking yet. Just a couple questions. Joey Votto, hitting nearly .350 all year with power, did not even have 50 RBIs, presumably because of the lack of folks who could NOT get on base in front of him. I would be curious to know what other great hitters have had similar years with a similar lack of RBI production.
I have to agree with Steve that Dusty what will not do what is smart, but will continue to bat Cozart and Stubbs in front of whoever is number 3, a hitter who will be decidedly inferior to Votto. Do you think the new number three hitter will produce anywhere near the RBI that a healthy Votto struggled to?
Phillips, who at least had Votto in front of him, and on base frequently, will now have somebody on base a lot less in the three slot, plus the MIA number one and two hitters. Will he start pressing to hit homers because there’s no one on base in front of him? So, assuming, and it’s a big assumption, the Reds do not acquire anyone with offensive skills before the trade deadline, where does the offense come from?
So who is the replacement on the roster? Henry Rodriguez would get my vote assuming he can play 3B. Let him split time with Rolen instead of Cairo. He is unproven, but has been plaing well in AA and brief time in AAA. Also, he is a switch hitter.
@CI3J: I think that people are reacting to Todd Frazier hitting 3rd moreso because it’s inconsistent with how he’s been used so far and how sharp of a contrast it is compared to previous decisions.It wouldn’t be the worst thing in the world to have him hit #3, but I think it’s also highly possible he gets a little overexposed there. IMO, Bruce is the one for that slot. See if he can’t rise to the occasion. There are no perfect choices here.
Not sure where Fay and others come up with three weeks for Valaika. Here is Fay’s own reporting on June 12 that Valaika had the surgery.
http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/2012/06/12/reds-lineup-bray-update-valaika-hurt/
And here is the story reporting that Valaika was reactivated a month later. He first played on July 12.
http://www.courier-journal.com/article/20120712/SPORTS07/307120088/New-look-Louisville-Bats-no-luck-loss-Braves
That seems like four weeks to me.
Obviously, I hope Votto comes back right away. But I also don’t want to get fed unrealistic estimates and inaccurate data.
Brilliantly written, Steve. Again.
Although, I was feeling optimistic this morning, telling myself “this too shall pass.” After reading this, I just threw up in my mouth a little bit.
@ArkansasRedsFan: Thanks for the informative and expert perspective. Based on your experience, is it possible that continuing to play with a tear could make it worse, possibly moving the surgery from the category of “shave” to “repair”?
Yes, that is possible. However I have definitely seen it happen the other way around. Just this last year, I had a football player with a meniscus issue in July. The Dr. said that it was a case where he would probably have to repair it. He was given the option to play through it and have surgery after the season. He was a senior, so he decided to play through it since he didn’t want to miss a few weeks of his senior year. At the end of the season, when he finally had his surgery, his meniscus had basically healed itself enough to a point where the Dr. had to shave it down and not repair it. So it can definitely happen both ways.
This also could have been a situation where they may not have found damage on the initial evaluation. Votto may have responded well to some treatment and they may have both decided that he could try to play through it, and then after the break and through the WLB series it got a little worse. That still doesn’t excuse not getting that MRI 3 weeks ago when he first hurt it. But, I wasn’t in the room evaluating Votto, so who knows what exactly went on.
I saw on Twitter that Todd Redman is being recalled? Does that mean Cueto is not starting tonight or they want another arm in a tired bullpen?
@CI3J:
I have to agree with you:
“Jesus, stop overreacting to this already.”
Why is there an “Obligatory Outrage Section”? Because like with so many issues here, there is the Obligatory Rush to Judgement. We have “perhaps” 5 or 10% of the information that the principals involved have. We don’t know what conversations Votto had with Baker, Votto had with the front office, Votto had with the medical staff, etc.
I’m of the mind (like most guys) that you don’t go running to the doctor for every injury that comes down the pike. If Votto was downplaying the injury, or mischaracterizing the injury (e.g. I just have a slight hamstring pull), the Reds would not have had much to go on. He may have looked a bit lame running down the first base line on routine outs, but he was fielding his position well, and was still being productive at the plate (like always, he looked and was dangerous with a bat in his hands).
If (and that’s a big if) Votto was more forthright with his injury concerns, the medical staff may have weighed in that he did not risk significant further injury by playing. I find the timing of his shutting it down to be less troubling than others here. Votto (with or without the Reds input) may have decided to see how the knee responded to a few rest days and the ASG break, and try to gut it out through the all important series with the Cards.
But like everyone here, I’m just guessing at most of the facts.
So there’s no real need for Obligatory Outrage or the blame game. The real facts will come out over time, and if they’re not to everyone’s satisfaction there will be plenty of time for Monday morning quarterbacking.
Exhale.
Exactly. I can understand theNation being out of sorts, but injuries are part of team sports. If this team is going to win the World Series, someone besides Joey Votto was going to have to step up, or the results would have been similar to 2010 when he just got pitched around.
There is still a long way to go and the trade deadline in still 2 weeks away. Lets see if the rest of the guys on the team are up to the challenge.
If it was easy, then it wouldn’t be worth so much effort.
@AnnapolisHoosier: Probably, just so they have a Plan “B” for when Bill Bray goes all Private Pyle (from Full Metal Jacket), on the clubhouse.
@earmbrister: My point was there was plenty of evidence that something serious may have been wrong with Votto’s knee. Baker held him out for more than two games. Do you know the last time that happened? Then there was the sudden drop off in production. Plus anyone who watched him play could see it. Then there’s always the physical evidence of the swollen knee, which our professional trainer here said just doesn’t happen with otherwise healthy players.
My point of “outrage” is that, given all this evidence, the Reds should have gotten the MRI done before the All-Star game so that four of the recovery days would have been when there were no games scheduled. That’s not a small consequence of inaction.
@Steve Mancuso:
My point is that we know very little about what was going on with Votto, i.e. it’s not apparent that there was “plenty of evidence” that something may have been wrong with Votto’s knee.
As far as I saw, Baker held him out for two games, not more. There was no SUBSTANTIAL drop off in production. Votto went three striaght weeks in April without a home run; his production recently didn’t drop off a cliff like it did even back in April when he was fully healthy. We all saw that there was something wrong with Votto’s lower half, particularly on running to first on probable outs, but it wasn’t preventing him from being productive at the plate or in the field. He was still making diving Gold Glove plays at first base. As for the “physical evidence of the swollen knee” what evidence are you referring to? Was it swollen? Was it swollen initially or over time” Did Votto share that information with Baker, the front office, and/or the medical staff. Should Baker or the trainer have followed him into the showers if he was sharing any information with the Reds staff? If Votto did share the information, when did he share it and with whom? Did all of the parties involve come to the decision to wait until after the ASG or after the Cardinal series?
The point is we don’t know much yet as to how and when this all went down. So outrage may or may not be warranted.
I am tired of playing a man short evry season with these Reds. The Reds and the Bengals- in this health care – they are about the same level. We have Quacks who are wearing white closing on the so call medical staff and in reality they are about the same as Kramer with the uniform of the meat cutter who plays Doctor Vanostron in the comedy Seinfeld!
I agree completely on the accountability part. Sadly, there are no beat writers with the b*lls to ask the Reds these questions. They are just puppets for the most part. Erardi would, but he just does special columns. Reminds me of a few weeks ago when Baker pulled (I think it was Leake) in the 8th when he had a low pitch count and was a better hitter anyway than the PH and John Fay said in his column the next day: “I forgot to ask Baker about why he pulled Leake”. Forgot? Sigh.
Why call up a starting pitcher who couldn’t make the Braves team to replace an injured MVP first baseman? Oh yeah, there’s no help in the minors. “Don’t panic,” said the people with towels.
Must be one mean blister on Cueto. He’ll probably
just get a routine night offtwo weeksthree to four weeksmiss only one start.Sheesh, maybe because Cueto is iffy and Simon is unavailable? Both of these concerns will disappear in a matter of days.
@earmbrister: Still being productive at the plate? You must be joking.
@CI3J: Yeah, the old “winning with pitching and defense”. As jared said, you win by scoring more runs. Removing Votto from the lineup is going to hurt a lot. The idea that maybe Votto doesn’t matter all that much because the Reds win with pitching and defense is beyond me.
Sad day indeed, Man sucks as i was FINALLY getting back into REDS baseball on a daily basis.. and now IMHO our heart and soul of this team is watching from the bench. This sucks. I really really hope Bruce/Stubbs/Rolen can pull something together and keep us in the hunt for when votto returns. I also hope that the Pirate return to normal and start to lose which would be a relief for us.
One can hope and dream right?
Cueto’s blister will heal fully with another moved start…or two. That, and some “Dr. Scholl’s Moleskin”. And “Dr. Scholl’s Moleskin” is really code for Tommy John Surgery. Everyone, relax.
well, it’s officially come full circle in 2012. Rolen completely healthy, Votto completely shelved
@earmbrister: You are correct on one count, it’s not our responsibility as fans to make rash judgements or officially evaluate anyone’s job performance. That’s ultimately Big Bob’s responsibility delegated through individuals with expertise he has hired or endorsed for others to hire. You are correct on another count, we were not privy to conversations or discussions regarding Votto’s knee. We do know that the injury was his knee, not his hammy. Everyone involved also knew it was his knee not his hammy. Everyone also knows when the injury occured. Based on Votto’s approach to playing the game, I’m reasonably sure he advised the pertinent individuals (manager, trainiers, doctor) at that time that it was nothing serious and he could play through the discomfort. I’m also sue the trainers and doctor made a cursory evaluation at that time. Up to that point, I have no problem with anyone’s actions or inactions. The issue I have is that after the injury, the problem worsened, the knee swelled up (or swelled up more) and Votto had to take time off to rest the knee. As soon as the knee worsened, the pertinent individuals (manager, trainers & doctor) had a responsibility to determin the exact nature of the injury before risking further injury. At that time an MRI was not only indicated, but necessary. If the swelling was severe enough to invalidate an MRI, then Votto doesn’t play again until the swelling subsides and an MRI can be completed. If the pertinent individuals did not have that conversation with Votto, then they were irresponsible and negligent. If the pertinent individuals did have that conversation with Votto and Votto resisted, than Uncle Walt needs to be involved if he wasn’t involved already. My point, and this is the same point I made yesterday is that everyone answers to Big Bob and if anyone was irresponsible or negligent, then Big Bob is responsible for making that determination. Any and all of those individuals should lose their jobs, immediately, if Big Bob makes that determination. That’s not overreacting. That’s holding people responsible and accountable for protecting Big Bob’s very sizable investment. It is possible that all pertinent individuals, including Votto and Big Bob, were involved in making the decision to not have the MRI until yesterday, for whatever reason. If such is the case, then it is what it is and life goes on.
A medical exam Monday night detected the tear and Votto will have arthroscopic surgery on Tuesday.
General manager Walt Jocketty said Votto didn’t have an MRI earlier because the first baseman didn’t think he needed one.
“He didn’t request it until then,” Jocketty said. “He said it wasn’t a problem until the last couple of days.”
Oh brother! This is really tick me off. Who is th boss here? Votto is not a doctor and uncle Walt just did not want to take any blame. The Reds on this case SSSSSSSS.
@Bumbum: Hear no evil, see no evil. Classic case.
@CharlotteNCRedsFan: yep- The three monkies- Uncle Bob, Uncle walt and Dustman…..
I was thinking more like human-nature. What we don’t know won’t hurt us. Although, we know it can, we are built a certain way. Until the Almighty comes up with a better version, we are stuck with each other. I place no blame and am ready to move on and hope the guys on that roster are too.
My take, anyone and everyone from Votto himself to Baker to Walt to the doctors and trainers to BC, whoever even suspected an injury (so not necessarily saying all of them but whoever suspected an injury), were wrong for not having Votto get an MRI. I believe Baker admitted that he said he trusted Votto when Votto told him his knee would be OK. Baker should never have even asked about it. At minimum, he should have talked it over with the medical staff. If the slightest bit suspected, like what would have warranted even asking Votto about it in the first place, you get the MRI done, period.
As for the lineup, all kinds of options available. Obviously, players will need to step up. I thought Stubbs would do well last night. That’s been his trend, after a change like batting order, he goes good for maybe a week, then trends back down. I wouldn’t put money on Stubbs for any game, but I wouldn’t be surprised he steps up tonight as well.
The pitching has been stepping up, all year. It’s now time for the offense to step up. Baker will need to drop his stuff about benching good bats “in order to get (fill in the blank) going”. Like last night, frankly, IMO, I would have gone with Ludwick instead of Stubbs. Baker needs to go with “who is going”, not with players who “we need to get going”. So, Baker needs to step up.
Focusing on individual players, first, they all have to keep up with what they have been doing. So, like if Frazier gets more 3 hole starts, he needs to be able to keep up how he’s been hitting all year, just in the 3 hole. It would be great if he can get going even better. The same with everyone else. If any player who needs to step up, who needs to play better, it’s Stubbs. If he keeps up his regular batting trend, he will be useless during this time and should sit IMO, definitely no higher than the 7 hole. We are going to need more offense with the loss of Votto, not someone struggling on offense.
Joey Votto out 3-4 weeks? Might as well start calling up AAA players, this season is over.
Yes, the Reds are losing, arguably, the best hitter in baseball today. However, they still rely on a very solid pitching rotation that has the 3rd best ERA in all of baseball and the 3rd best defense (in most statistical categories that matter) in the league. The offense was mediocre prior to Votto, now it may get worse. For what it is worth, I am going to be a typical fan and throw some “what if’s” and “maybe’s” out there for us to chew on.
1.) Bruce finds his stroke and goes on his typical Jay Bruce tear. If he can get that bat swinging again, move him to 3rd in the line up and watch him hit anything/everything. The Reds NEED him to step up and stop mentally screwing himself every time he is up to bat.
2.) Stubbs learns to bunt for hits. Might as well try, right?
When one reaches that part of your post, one needs read no further.
What a steaming pile…
@byoung1989:
Stubbs needs to start making consistent contact and he will be more than alright. His time is now and we need him. He may be the most important Red going forward. We basically know what we have in Votto, Phillips, and Bruce. Stubbs is the only other one that can play to those levels or better. I think he just needs to relax up there and have some fun. Playing baseball should not be a grim experience. The greatest fail about 7 out of 10 times so just get over yourself and start smacking that little round, white ball!
John Fay reports that the reds have called up Todd Redmond, in case Cueto can’t go for long today.
What are the implications for a deadline trade? Presumably, Walt’s been working the phones to get a deal done by July 31. Does the injury make a deal more important? Does it give the Pirates a leg up if they make a big acquisition while the Reds are without Votto?
The White Sox played it right by getting Youkilis in advance of the trade deadline. If he hadn’t been moved to the Chicago earlier this month, I’m guessing that he would have been in a Reds uniform by the end of this week.
I’m surprised more hasn’t been made of the trade implications yet. I would very much hope that this has lit a fire under Walt to help the Reds offense soon. If they were already looking to do that, then this obviously becomes the time to do it.
The Reds have some tough choices to make though, and that has to be done before a trade is made. There are clearly areas that can be improved in this offense, but are the Reds ready to bench the guys they have? I haven’t seen much indication that that’s the case.
The three worst offensive performers this year have been Cozart, Stubbs, and Rolen in decending order. Cozart, while he should not be leading off, is here to stay for sure.
So really, if you want to talk about improving the offense, you’re talking about benching Stubbs or Rolen. Who else, you know? You could bench Ludwick and Heisey in left, but they have been very productive over the last month.
You don’t want to trade for a guy to play 3B longterm if Votto is only out a month, because Frazier will need a spot to play when he come back. But Rolen has been considerably worse than Stubbs this year, so he’s really the guy that you’d like to get to the bench during this stretch.
But really we’re talking about trading for a new CF, or just getting a little more for the bench. Does anyone see them cutting bait on Drew Stubbs?
This all just makes me think that we’re not going to do anything because we’re too attached to our mediocre guys.
@ArkansasRedsFan: Thankfully, we have some reasonable speculation based on actual education and experience.
Thanks, ARF…
One potential positive is that our hitters have a huge opportunity to gain confidence in themselves (individually/collectively) outside of Votto-dependence, similar to the perceived one Bailey received by working through adversity. Hopefully this can pay off down the stretch or in the playoffs, if we can get there.
I hope Dustman will know how to manage without his Big Star for awhile. J Bruce needs to step up because lately he was stepping down several floors. His average is dipping down. This dude is hot and cold what is the matter with him. Can’t he learn to adjust what the pitcher was given it to him? Oh brother, why can’t he grow out of this habbit – hacking it the pitches outside a foot and inside about a mile, when it is in the middle , he either foil or pop it up. The hit is far and few!
@Greg Dafler: I don’t know about that Yoki was not in the plan and I don’t think he would be even after this problem of Votto’s knee. this is my personal opinion and not challenging your thought in any way, Ok. Bro.!
The no-MRI thing for 18 days is hard to understand. The red flag to me was the game when he swooned after hitting the ball, barely trotted to first base, and left the game. That’s when they should have done the MRI.
But it is what it is, and they have to deal with it. They now have 5 guys (Frazier, Rolen, Heisey, Ludwick and Stubbs) to play 4 positions (1B, 3B, Lf & CF). All are right-handed hitters, and Dusty is going to have to mix and match, plus fiddle with the lineup. We’ll see. I do think it makes a Victorino trade more likely.
@Redgoggles: very positive thought. This will show if they all have their own backbone a nd pride to chip in for the winning of the team or not. last night, thye were not real shy. They did not get the break- 1st inning Cozart just couldn’t resist- DP and that usually kills the chance of having a big inning. They were blessed to get one run in that inning. AH- No-YO put the team in the hole very early and that did not help! Then when he gave up that Hr… He just put another pressure on his team because one run down is better tah to have tow runs down and especially with your best hitter was out and a short man last night! Last night Ugly Ah No Yo went to pitch and the good one stayed home!
Saw this on ESPN, and I think this just sums up the lunacy of over-reaction:
BURNER8585: “Reds are screwed. Their only offensive player just went down, now the Reds will slip into 4th-5th place in that span. BOOK IT.”
So let me get this straight… In a month, the Reds are going to go from 11 games over .500 to about 5 games UNDER .500?
Let’s say Votto returns August 17th (4 weeks).
That’s about 30 games.
So for the Reds to fall to JUST 4th place, they’d have to be worse than the Brew Crew, who are 8 games behind the Reds.
So you’re telling me the Brew Crew is suddenly going to win 8 more games than the Reds in that stretch? If the Reds go 15-15 (which I think is the worst case scenario given the teams they are facing) the Brewers need to go ONLY 23-7.
Give me a friggin’ break. And 5th place, behind Houston?
It’s not like the Reds are suddenly going to get shut out every game from now on.
The best way to retain sanity is to avoid the comment sections of ESPN and the Cincinnati Enquirer. The vast majority of those comments are either ill-informed or intentionally trollish.
Point taken.
NOBODY knows what is going to happen. I seriously doubt many here would have believed this team was going to open the second half with a sweep of the defending WS Champs (esp. w/ a walkoff hw from Ryan Ludwick, a clutch hit from Scott Rolen AND a convincing, dominant, step up pitching from fan favorite Homer Bailey, on national television to boot). Heck, who seriously thought Bill Bray was going to get out of that inning last night, unscathed? I’ll keep watching because, as the Cards proved to everyone last season, you never know what going to unfold in this game of baseball.
And of course, if the Brewers do that, the Pirates and Cardinals would have to at least match their record so THEY don’t fall to 4th.
Never much cared for the guy, but remember Jim Edmunds ripping the Reds’ doctors when he left? Just one more little nugget that’s got me wondering what’s going on with this group.
@BloodyHo I believe it is our responsibility to evaluate the staff’s performance. The revenue earned from fans with tickets, concessions, and merchandise sales provides salaries for these individuals. If we don’t keep these guys in check, what is there incentive to provide a quality product?
Also, for those of you who do not think this is a major reason to panic, look at how poorly the offense has produced with Votto in the lineup. What evidence supports the notion that guys will now begin to step-up? A player’s impact like Votto starts at the top of the lineup down to the bottom. Stubbs was in the best situation possible hitting in front of Votto as was Phillips behind him. Pitchers wanted to pitch to Stubbs and were more likely to throw strikes whereas Phillips had the luxury of having a guy with an OBP of .465 hitting in front of him. Without a trade for a significant player as well as changes to the lineup, this is going to be an extremely tough patch for the team. I don’t think it’s reasonable to expect more out of the pitching staff that has already produced above average results. A realistic expectation at this point is for the Red’s to still be 3 to 4 games within the division after Votto’s return (hopefully by the end of August).
Shouldn’t the goal be to build a Championship caliber team, not just a playoff team? We have a lot of great tools, but we need more and soon.
@CI3J: You know, when I read your first comment this morning, complaining about over-reaction, I wasn’t really sure what you were referring to. Now I know you were talking about the dumbest comment you could find at another blog. Which you apparently then had to re-post here so we knew what you were answering. Because not a single comment here has made an argument even remotely like that one from ESPN. I wonder why you just didn’t respond to that comment over there. I can only speak for myself, but my post preached moderation, not panic. I’m a lot more upset about the way the Reds management handled the injury than I am at the prospects of how the Reds will do if Votto is out only 3-4 weeks.
@Steve Mancuso:
Actually, Steve, I just found that comment myself a few minutes ago, but I think people need to tone down this “someone needs to be fired” rhetoric and whatnot.
Also, the Reds are not going to tumble down the standings. Despite what you said, this IS an easy stretch of their schedule, one they still have the offensive, pitching, and defensive firepower to thrive in. As I said, I think a .500 record is the worst case scenario.
Those are the other over reactions I was referring to. And see someone on THIS blog who said the “season’s over”. You’re trying to tell me that’s not over-reacting?
Bottom line: No one needs to get fired, the Reds are still going to keep winning during the easy part of their schedule, and the season is not over.
Over-reaction by some fans, or in the case here 1 person who has said it in a comment, isn’t representative of the fan base. Don’t fall into the same trap that Mark Sheldon and John Fay do.
However, it DOES seem bad when people keep saying someone needs to be fired over this. No, they don’t. That’s like saying someone needs to be fired if Phllips tore his hamstring when trying to play through it earlier in the year. Yes, Votto was injured, but he and everyone else thought it was a minor thing he could play through. It only became apparent recently just how bad it was.
It was a miscalculation on everyone’s part, but it is not worth firing anyone over.
So you don’t believe in accountablity? Also under your view why even employ a medical staff, just let the players self diagnose and treat. There was gross negligence in this case, and when that happens, someone should be fired.
So firing people is the only way to hold them accountable for the way they perform their jobs? And you know more about the situation, sitting at a keyboard, than the people who have been there every step of the way? You really think that the people putting millions of dollars at risk to run this business wouldn’t fire an employee for gross negligence?
If the Reds were really that stupid, they would have folded by now.
With what has happen the only option is to fire. How do you slap someone on the wrist for this? We are talking a 200+million dollar investment here, not some low level rookie.
If you went to a doctor and he said you were okay and then 3 months later you found out he was wrong and you are now having to have major surgery due to his neglegence you would do nothing?
You completely missed my point. It’s as if you read only the first sentence.
I get what you’re saying. I’m not someone who is always for firing this person or that. But in my judgment, this one was a really, really bad mistake, by someone. You just absolutely somehow have to reach the conclusion before the All Star break to get that MRI done. There is no downside to the test. There is a gigantic possible downside to not doing the test. We don’t yet know the result of the surgery this morning. Hopefully it is the minor “trim” variety and not the major “repair” kind. But if it’s the latter, and that means the end of Votto’s season, that’s gigantic. You can talk all you want about pitching, defense and say the magic words “step up” as much as you want. This team isn’t going to make the playoffs if Joey Votto is out for the rest of the season. The owner made a huge investment to reach that outcome. An employee or several who jeopardized that through not doing their jobs properly should pay the price.
Bingo
@earmbrister: You’re going to great lengths to say there was no evidence of swelling. The public reports from as early as June 30 used the words “inflammation” maybe that’s different from swelling. On June 30, Votto alleged there was nothing structural wrong with his knee but it hurt enough that he was pulled out in the middle of that game and then two more.
You’re absolutely right that we don’t know exactly who dropped the ball here. That’s why I was careful in the original post not to place blame anywhere. My point is, that if I was the owner, someone would be accountable to me for making sure that the Reds weren’t playing Joey Votto (or any other player, really) when he was hurt and possibly needed surgery. Someone has to be responsible for making and failing to make in this case that call. Whoever that is, that’s who you blame. That’s what I wrote.
It’s really hard for me to imagine there is even another side to that. Either that protection is in place and failed, or the GM failed by not having that protection in place.
@earmbrister: You can keep saying there was no substantial drop in production, but a .785 OPS from the time he had to leave the lineup for 2 days is a substantial drop in production.
@Racine Red:
As I said before, Votto had a large drop off in production from April 8th to April 28th, as in he was batting .274 with ONE home run thru 4/28. We all knew Votto was hurt to some degree, but he was hardly moving like Kirk Gibson was in the WS. He was still hitting better than most of the Reds lineup and was still diving for balls and making the plays in the field.
What we don’t know was how Votto felt, and what he shared with the Reds staff. He strikes me as a “SUCK IT UP” kind of guy, more so than most players.
Dead on and he probably thought it was like every other time in his life when a knee, elbow, wrist, hand, etc. was bothering him – it would past. Hope we can all move from this topic soon it’s getting a bit tedious (to me).
Neftali Soto (.233/.294/.385) picked the wrong year to have a bad year.
This is probably a ridiculous stretch, but how about calling up Navarro (LH) to both beef up the bench or allow either him or Mez to spot start at 1B when Frazier is at 3rd/LF? Maybe Miggy gets it going, but I would rather see someone with some pop and I really would like to see Mez get more regular AB’s to see if he can get something going.
@renbutler:
It is a little hard to note my sarcasm in the post. After reading, 30-40 replies about how the Reds wont play .500 baseball until Votto returns, I just wanted to add the cherry on top.
In all seriousness, they will be fine. Mediocre? Probably. But overall, with the current circumstances, Reds will remain around the top spot in the NLC. If not in 1st, my prediction when Votto returns, is 1-2 games out. They are too good of a team to fall that far, regardless of how the offense plays. Remember, they still have to face some below average teams with below average pitching.
Yeah, I actually just went back and read your post and I see the sarcasm now.
And yeah, I agree 100% with you. The Reds are not going to roll over with Votto out.
Honestly, even if he’s out for the rest of the season, I think the Reds still have a shot at the playoffs. It really depends on what they do at the trade deadline. Leadoff hitter and shoring up the bench (LH hitter!), please?
If Votto were to be out for the year the Reds don’t do anything substantial in terms of moves, it’s unlikely they will make the playoffs. Very unlikely. 3-4 weeks, they still have a good shot.
Go ahead now and post how I said “the season’s over”.
http://ramsey.mlblogs.com/2012/07/17/tuesdays-reds-lineup-whos-your-red-to-rock-7/
NO Bruce????????????? That means we don’t have a lefty in the lineup…
This is the stuff that drives people nuts about Dusty.
I’d recommend reading Doug Gray’s post this afternoon about potential call-ups from Louisville. No one knows more than he does about the Reds farm system.
http://redsminorleagues.com/2012/07/17/tuesday-news-and-notes-50/
@CI3J:
A lead off hitter would be substantial. Some players (Bruce, Stubbs, Rolen) need to actually start playing baseball again. This is a perfect time for the Reds to get on a roll and prove to everyone else that they are a dangerous team.
Amen, brother, amen.
Frazier from 3rd to 6th and no Bruce in the lineup? There’s no way he needs a rest this soon after the break so is this ANOTHER injury? And what is it going to take for Dusty to mix up the 1-2 spots? At this point our leadoff hitters are on pace for a HISTORICALLY bad season. What is even going on around here anymore?
So Dusty is going to sit Bruce against an untested right-hander…he couldn’t wait for a few days until the D-backs throw a lefty?
Haven’t you watched Dusty manage all year? You are surprised by this lineup? I wouldn’t infer a Bruce injury just because he is sitting. He probably struck out three years ago against today’s starting pitcher.
At least I’m not the only one who is driven nuts by this cr**. Like I said, you think Baker, errr, Faker, finally has put it altogether, he does something else stupid.
The injury is his mental state. Some major mistakes in the outfield and on the bases as well as a .131 average over the past 10 games. I’m not sure I would read too much into that other than a day to get his head straight.
The top two spots is an absolute travesty of mismanagement. This teams seems to find a way to win despite themselves and managerial decisions.
A RHP on the mound who simply sucks against LH hitters and no Bruce in the lineup. That’s disturbing…
Stubbs 8
Cozart 6
Phillips 4
Ludwick 7
Rolen 5
Frazier 3
Heisey 9
Hanigan 2
Cueto 1
@CharlotteNCRedsFan: Ok with me. I have already fogot about it. Still a lot of games left and I think Uncle Walt will pull a rabbit out of his hat again. Go Reds
@antisocial21: Dusty is not going to change the overall scope of the lineup, regardless. This is absolutely insane when your 1 and 2 dont do anything. Sorry Dusty, but Votto is not going to get you out of your idiotic lineups like always. With him on the DL, you are ACTUALLY going to have to construct reasonably sound lineups.
@AnnapolisHoosier: Nothing Dusty does really shocks me, but why pick THIS moment to just go completely nuts? How do you not have your ONE left handed batter in the lineup?
At least we have a quality LH batter on the bench tonight.
Jocketty was just on MLB Network, The Rundown. His comments:
(1) The surgery went well, and it was what they anticipated: 3-4 weeks for his recovery.
(2) Jocketty is meeting with Baker again this afternoon (they met briefly after the game last nite)to discuss the lineup and the roster.
(3) They were already looking for more offense via trade before the injury and this means they have to step up the effort.
(4) This injury doesn’t mean that they will look for a middle of the lineup bat over a leadoff bat. They will continue to just look for more offense.
(5) Billy Hamilton probably won’t be called up in September as he just moved up to AA, and the game is much more difficult as you move up. They’ll take a wait and see approach, but he doesn’t envision it.
(6) He expects Cueto will be fine and will make this start.
(7) The goal is to make and then advance farther into the playoffs this year. Hopefully they get hot and can make it to the WS.
@earmbrister: That is really good news. Reds need their ace to step up tonight and regardless what the offense is doing and I believe JC is the man for the job. I, for one, am excited about tonight’s game. Enough time for the reality to soak in. Now, no more feeling sorry for your selves and start cracking.
Thanks for the info, wished I could have caught it but at work. However I have come to take what any sports Gm says with a grain of salt..
September? I was thinking playoff roster as 25th man, pinch runner. A catcher gets a hit late in a close game. Hamilton is on to pinch run. Since the catcher always bats 8th, the other catcher would be up next as the pinch hitter and would stay in the game defensively, the new reliever taking Hamilton’s spot in the lineup.
I don’t know when he has to go on the 40 man, but he’s not on it now and would have to be added. Does he have to be added before next season or would this just be starting his clock early?
There is zero reason not to have Hamilton on the playoff roster to as I’ve said serve the Dave Roberts role (which is what you said). If you do that, he needs to be on the roster in September (well, not really, but it’s safest that way). And he needs the experience anyways. If you are on the roster in the playoffs, you might have to hit sometime.
Can we see how he does in Double A? Thanks.
Inside the park homerun is a good start . .
No. I said I want him as a pinch runner, first and foremost. What’s that got to do with AA?
Well lets at least see what his success rate is at AA where catchers have stronger arms and pitchers do a better job of holding players on base. Right now his success rate is fine, but I am sure the Reds are watching to see if that changes as he advances. I’ve read a few reports that say his baserunning skills (as opposed to speed) are quite raw and he is prone to being picked off.
That is not to say he would not have value if he was simply asked to run the bases, but we are getting ahead of ourselves.
@wally mo: Wally, I actually think there will be little to no movement by anyone, not just the Reds, unless the ridiculous asking price by the sellers comes down and I don’t think that will happen. The significant factor in the asking price for rentals is the lack of any supplemental draft choice for the buyer any more. The sellers haven’t adapted to that fact yet. The non-rental trades are always tough to make in mid season.
@earmbrister: Good news on the surgery. Still don’t buy the 3 week recovery. I’ve had my knee scoped a couple times. You can walk reasonably well within a week or so, but you aren’t doing anything that strenuous for at least 3 weeks and I can’t imagine you’re getting anywhere near a professional sports field for a couple weeks after that.
As a Colts fan in Indy, this is the type of thing I was hearing about Peyton Manning all winter. “I had neck surgery, and I was laid up for three months and still feel pain. There’s no way Manning will ever play again.”
Needless to say, our own anecdotes about our own procedures simply don’t apply to those of professional athletes with access to the top surgeons in the world.
Well there are some things that are just universal. THey have to make at least 2-3 incisions for the scopes and those incisions need to be stitched and fully healed before any PT can start. That takes a minimum of a week and closer to 10 days. After that the rate of PT is obviously going to change from person to person, and I was clearly never going for “professional athlete” levels of conditioning, but I’m just saying that 3 weeks would be miraculous even if it was the most minor knee scope surgery in the history of knee scope surgery.
@earmbrister: Thanks bro. for the information. You transmitted it very well. Why don’t you become a beat writer! ::P
@Bumbum:
My spelling is too strong to allow for beat writing …
@byoung1989: Yes, thanks, sarcasm can be very difficult to detect in written form.
@BloodyHo: I can only hope the message to Bruce is: “Rest up tonight, because we’re riding your back until we can call you Scott Rolen starting tomorrow.”
Redmon is up. Why don’t just ship Bray out, he is useless and clogged up the roster. The Reds can bring a bat up in his spot. Bray is useless as a lefthanded pitcher . hH and his old partner the Magic man always got hurt and walked a ton of hitters.
@Greg Dafler: Good thinking but the Reds brass sometime are not that fast or may be they have a plan!
From Gregor Chrisholm @ MLB…
—Jose Bautista, forced to leave Monday’s game against the Yankees in the eighth inning because of a left wrist issue, was placed on the 15-day disabled list. The Blue Jays said that Bautista, the American League home run champion each of the past two seasons, has left wrist inflammation. Bautista was immediately sent Monday night for X-rays, which came back negative. As we said, the X-rays are negative, so it’s not a bone structure. We have to determine what it is, as far as the ligaments in the wrist area, so that’s where the MRI has to come into play tomorrow.—
The Jays don’t know how serious or not serious the injury is, but they don’t fool around with their main man and they don’t short their roster while carrying an unavailable player. I’ll take that approach every time.
@BloodyHo: Except that Votto could still swing a bat and field a position. Could Bautista have done that?
Votto probably could have finished the season at a somewhat lower level than he is normally capable. Not that I’m saying that’s what they should have done…
@eric nyc: Why would they cite a “miraculous” amount of time? What would they gain from that? Their prognosis wasn’t just made up — it was surely based on situations similar to Votto’s.
Now, although it wouldn’t be “miraculous,” apparently it’s the best-case scenario. Note that he’s out for 3-4 weeks. If it goes beyond August 13, then perhaps their prognosis was too optimistic.
@renbutler: All I ever said was I didn’t buy the 3 week recovery estimate. I’m not saying anyone’s lying. I’m sure that that is the absolute best case scenario, but I’d be shocked if it’s what ended up happening. I’m setting my expectations on September 1st and hopefully I’m pleasantly surprised by a week or two.
@renbutler Gross negligence happens all the time in million dollar businesses…how else do you think the financial collapse occured? It’s easier to cover up mistakes with larger organizations as they have the financial resources to recover from mistakes.
Firing someone may not be the answer, but someone needs to be held accountable whether it’s the manager, medical staff, or GM who states, “I (we) messed up and we should have looked at this sooner” at the very least.
Why do we make excuses for management and give them a free pass on idiotic decisions like this and others?
@TheRealChadLowe: Because there are completely plausible scenarios in which nobody screwed up anything surrounding Votto. There’s a ton of speculation and assuming taking place here.
Would bet money Doc Hollywood will be in the TV booth tonight, great chance for some screen time.
It’s official now I guess. Redmon was added to the 25 man roster and Votto was DL’d.
Personally, I don’t see why they don’t just leave Votto on the roster and play down another man. It’s worked so well in the past.
@renbutler: it seems like you’re arguing just as hard that nothing improper happened as anyone arguing that something bad happened, and you don’t have any more information to support that theory.
if what you think is that we just can’t know, then that’s fine. it may be a cop out on a discussion board, but it is the truth: we as fans just can’t know.
but i think it’s just as reasonable to discuss the possibility that this was poorly managed as it is to assume that because the Reds is a big company that they must have done everything they could to avoid this situation.
I SPECIFICALLY said yesterday that I was just speculating. The problem is that some people here don’t understand that they’re basing their arguments on little more than speculation — they’re stating as FACT things they can’t possibly know.
And that’s the difference between my scenarios and the opposite scenarios: I understand that mine are just a guess. And that’s my point.
@Jared: Doing it with a guy who is “day-to-day” is completely different. And yes, I get the sarcasm.
@wally mo: The people here are so incredibly virtuous (just ask them) that rather than just debating the issue, they also feel the need to shield everyone involved from the ignorants.
If I read “how do you know what’s going on inside his head?” one more time I’m going to… groan and move on I guess. Obviously all the discussion here is speculation and opinions based on limited knowledge and rumors. Why everyone feels the need to point that out constantly is beyond me.
It’s one thing to observe a player physically and think he’s hurt. It’s another thing to speculate that a player has a psychological problem. If one wants to speculate on the latter, fine, but it happens all the time around here (see Homer Bailey, Sean Marshall, Mat Latos) and it’s pretty lame.
Bruce made a diving catch last night and it looked to me like he flinched a bit in his right shoulder. If so, that might be the reason he’s out, even if Dusty gives another explanation for it.
@Jared: Because people are stating wild speculation as unwavering fact. Why “everyone” feels the need to do that constantly is beyond me…
@renbutler: People assert their opinions as fact all the time. Mentally add “In my opinion” or “I think” to each post while you read and you maybe you’ll be less frustrated.
Then there’s this from Baseball Prospectus, a very reliable source on injuries:
“We questioned the story about Joey Votto’s inflammation being caused by a slide back on July 2; we believed that if the injury did occur acutely, it was more likely indicative of a cartilage or tendon injury. Now, we find out that Votto will need surgery to correct a meniscus tear in his knee and will be placed on the DL. Some reports have him out for only two weeks, but it usually takes about 10 days for the incisions to heal. He will more likely be out for three to four weeks, which is still better than the average 80 days for first baseman. The timeline could change based on the outcome of the surgery, because if doctors have to directly repair the torn meniscus instead of trimming out the torn portions, Votto could miss six weeks or more.”
So there’s another expert saying that the story didn’t add up from the get-go.
@Jared: That’s not what I’m talking about. Saying “somebody needs to be fired” is a valid opinion. But the reasoning that supports that opinion is fact — or not. And it’s the “or not” that I’m addressing.
We know so few facts surrounding this situation. Forming strong opinions on facts that we don’t know is just goofy.
@renbutler: I don’t understand why you always challenge the specific verbiage in every post. If you seriously can’t get past that, I give up.
The clearly-stated opinions are themselves based on opinions. Take the statement “I think Dusty Baker should be fired because he is a terrible manager.” 2 opinions in one sentence, both stated as fact. Except no one is implying they are facts.
Feel free to assume I meant to add “practically” to all the terms in italics. And apply that to posts by anyone else too. You’re making these conversations harder than they need to be.
How about Todd Redmond; he’s with Atlanta forever and never gets a single cup of coffee, and gets traded on Saturday and he’s on the big squad Tuesday.
@Jared: *sigh*
From SI today: No team in baseball has a greater imbalance than the Reds, who give 76 percent of their plate appearances to righthanded hitters.
It still boggles my mind that for most of the season all of the talk was about getting a RH power hitter to put between Votto and Bruce.
It’s letting the borderline insane preferences of the field manager dictate the roster construction.
Actually, just go ahead and read this whole article: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/writers/tom_verducci/07/17/joey-votto-cincinnati-reds/index.html#ixzz20tPxg4T3
It sounds like Verducci has been spending a lot of time reading RLN.
Yeah I liked the part about Frazier becoming a “local legend.” I heard Todd Frazier once hit a walk off home run in the 1st inning.
@Racine Red: There’s one reason, and it’s to keep him under team control for an extra year. I don’t know if that’s a GOOD reason, but it is a reason.
All that stuff is determined by service time, not by the year that he’s called up. If he went back to the minors next year, it would wouldn’t necessarily impact his team control.
What would happen is they would have to add him to the 40-man roster, which means that next year would be one of his 3 option years. Now, they may do that in the offseason anyway, so then it wouldn’t matter.
@renbutler: I just don’t get it. Just quit reading “and that’s a fact!” in to every single post. Everyone thinks their opinion is fact. Everyone makes generalizations. Everyone exaggerates. If someone thinks a trainer should be fired because Votto was clearly hurt 2 weeks ago, why can’t you accept that?
I’ve spent a lot of time on a lot of different forums and blogs and the debates on all of them are all pretty much the same. But this site is a completely different animal.
@Jared: I agree, a completely different animal.
Jared: Absolutely. A good remedy for getting tired of this site is going to another site, any sports blog actually. The espn sites are the worst, totally unmoderated, just ignorant people insulting each other at the lowest level. The mlb.com sites are better but still a waste of time. The Fay site has an occasional intelligent comment but not many and as soon as someone disagrees they’ll say how stupid you are.
I know there are better Reds blogs than those and I’ve checked some of them out but found nothing close to the quality of RLN.
I have to agree. The Fay site is essentially unreadable now. Literally, it made me sick to my stomach. If you post anything like, “This lineup doesn’t make sense.” You get a half dozen “fill in the blank” immediately insulting you about how you need to quit talking bad about Dusty or Stubbs or something, nothing but insults thrown at you all night, simply because you made a simple post “This lineup doesn’t make sense.” They talk about how you should do this or that on the blog, all of it which is what you do. Then, they post insults when you do it. Then, after letting them alone for a while, they would post comments in exact agreement with what you would post.
The Fay site has the Facebook block you could do, but that is worthless (backdoor easily found as well as it doesn’t stop the “fill in the blank” from posting insults about you). You could press the magic “x” to report the post, but the Enquirer does nothing about that. You could email customer service with a complaint, but, again, worthless. This seems to be the best, as long as it is kept civil and mature.
@Racine Red: I think one could make the argument that you could have a more valuable 25th man than Billy Hamilton. If not, every team would have a sprinter on their roster.
The point is, there have been serious questions about his bat. We have no idea if he can hit or not at this level, so really we would be getting a sprinter who MIGHT be able to hit a little.
Now, if the question is: is Hamilton the sprinter more valuable on the roster than Valdez or Cairo? That’s different. If that’s the choice, then yes, give me the sprinter.
(2) on Walt’s list should be interesting consider the lineup tonight.
Over his last 10 starts Heisey is batting .357, where does he go? You got it – number seven.
Second best power hitter on the team (Frazier) and best in the lineup tonight — number six
Cozart and Stubbs = fixtures
I want to pull my hair out looking at this lineup card.
I will be in the home of the Legend in a few weeks as my college buddy lives in the town next door, I wonder if there is a Todd Frazier gift shop in Toms River…
@rightsaidred: I haven’t commented on the lineup tonight mostly because my brain doesn’t totally accept that it’s real.
Dusty says he gets tired of the fans questioning his lineups, but is it just me, or does this seem like going out of your way to be stubborn?
It’s the day after losing Votto. All anyone has been talking about is how everyone needs to step up and fill his shoes etc. So is this really the day to sit Jay Bruce? I would think that Jay Bruce can handle playing for a while. I would think that Jay Bruce wants to play for a while, knowing what it means for the team.
It’s like he insists on playing with one hand tied behind his back. Even when the other one is already tied up back there.
I was basing my “factual” opinion on what I was seeing in his performance and how he was running. There was some sort of injury he was facing that was lingering and causing a problem. I can only base my opinion on that because management of any team is typically very secretive when it comes to injuries whether there is negligence or not.
Since their last playoff appearance in 1995 the team has only 3 winning seasons and 1 out of 4 in Dusty’s managing tenor. Are we supposed to trust a group that doesn’t have a proven track record of competence?
@wally mo: Bruce has to be hurt. There is absolutely no other reason to sit him tonight. Even in Dustyland.
I think Steve’s premonition about screwy lineups was dead on.
Rolen at #5
@wally mo: I am telling myself Bruce is ‘dinged’ and that Dusty isn’t doing what I fear and resting him.
Outside of Phillips it’s as if our Dear Manager is looking at the offensive stats of late, reversing the order and calling it the lineup.
@rightsaidred: The one thing Dusty abides by religiously is lefty-righty matchups. Dusty not playing the ONE lefty bat on his roster, who also happens to be his best power hitter, against a struggling young righty says that Bruce is hurt. Hopefully it’s minor because if he’s down along with Joey for any amount of time we’d might as well pack it in.
@eric nyc: Fay says Dusty wants to give all of the All-Stars a day off. Because playing 2 innings in an exhibition game in 4 days probably really taxed them all.
If it was just that you would be right, but it’s not and it does wear down those who go.
@wally mo: Arizona is starting a lefty on Thursday. If it was just a regular day off he’d wait until then. I mean obviously I’m speculating, but everything I know about Dusty Baker tells me Bruce is at least dinged up.
Some gems from Baker today from Fay:
Brandon Phillips is in the third spot in the order tonight.
“He’s the one guy who can move all over the lineup,” Baker said. “I’m sure i’m going to have a lot of help with the lineup. I do the best I can with who we have.”
Richmond takes Joey Votto’s roster spot. Obviously, the Reds will need a bat soon.
“We’ll see,” Baker said. “You’re bombarding [me] with questions I can’t answer. We’ll take today and see tomorrow. We have things in the works.”
—
Yes Dusty, one day after your MVP goes down and the reporter asks you if you’re going to call up a hitter: Duck!!! You’re Being Bombarded!
And what a load of crap about Phillips being able to move all over the lineup. In that quote he exposes his old-timey (seemingly nonsensical) idea of a lineup. He thinks guys have certain “styles” of hitting, and that some guys, they just can’t feel the groove of they style in a certain spot in the lineup.
Phillips man, he’s special, because he can just change up his style, and that’s tough dude. Todd Frazier, he’s too young to be able to change his style up, same with Cozart, Stubbs, Hannigan, they just don’t get it.
But the truth is that over a reasonable amount of time, players are who they are, no matter where you put them in the lineup. Having a scrappy little guy style doesn’t matter, it matters how well you hit. Someone needs to get it through this guy’s head that he should just hit the good hitters first.
Yes, those are among the most absurd comments ever uttered by Dusty .
“Dusty Baker said he wanted to give his All-Stars a day”
So, this was the reason to give Bruce a rest? Why not last night when they were facing the D-backs only All-Star, a left handed pitcher?
@Big Ed: Bruce didn’t look too comfortable after coming up with that diving catch in Sunday night’s game against the Cards. I cringed last night when he made that play. I don’t want to even think about it right now.
“Jesus, stop overreacting to this already.”
In my profession I have come to discover that Jesus never overreacts to anything; I’ve also learned that He doesn’t care to be accused of it, either.
I, on the other hand, exercise my right to overreact. I’m not overreacting to the injury, although shelving your reigning MVP is never a positive. Instead, I have to wonder why in the world a medical exam was just now performed. Call me reactionary, but if I am investing millions upon millions in these guys, I think I would be tempted to MRI their entire bodies on every available off day. He was clearly hurting and a basic test wasn’t performed? Really? It took this long to determine he had a meniscus tear? I don’t understand. This reeks of the Magic Man deal. I need some help here.
@renbutler: There should be an icon for sarcasm. I guess the closest is
@steveschoen: Jay Bruce was out of the lineup.
“He’s feeling OK,” Baker said. “But he ain’t looking OK, is he? That’s why he’s getting the day off. It’s either pay me now or pay me later.”
Bruce is 0-for-10 since his RBI double Saturday
.
Bruce made the All-Star Game so he didn’t get much of a break.
“I told him to chill,” Baker said. “Come in at 5 o’clock, don’t hit too much. Sometimes, you do too much. It’s getting late. You need your energy, your strength. Sometimes, 110 percent is too much.
“It’s that mental and emotional when you’re not getting hits.”
—
I don’t know, seems like last night would have made more sense.
“I don’t know, man,” Baker said. “They didn’t think it was what it was. That happens all the time. We’ve got one of the best medical staffs around. It’s easy to say, ‘You should have done this or that.’ But it didn’t merit or warrant that at that time.”
WoooW, this is from the horse mouth or ???. Votto was not well before and the medical staff could not determine the problem. Votto was finally on the DL and discovered that it was something that had to do with his emotional thing. The best medical staff of the reds are a JOKE. Look they got the magicman and he was a damge good… who knows about Madson also? The Reds medical staff seemed to not that good like Dustman had proclaimed.
I’ve looked thru the whole thread and I haven’t seen this mentioned: Joey aggravated the injury on Sunday against the Cardinals. We’ll never know when the tear actually occurred. A couple of us suggested this possibility last nite.
Either way I still don’t understand why an MRI wasn’t done before the AS break.
Nice to see Reds not only questionable ran franchise…Boston is not going to DL Big P with that bad ankle,say they will sit him for a week and reevaluate. So for the next week the Red Sox play at least a man down….
Antoehr thing is that- Inside the body- you can’t just think , you need to have an X-Ray which is very common these days. The Reds medical staff then are using the medicine man of the wild west to think or to touch and said “Oh Yea, no damge , it just a swelling and it will go away- here use this Horse Puff for three days and take a bath in the mud water for another 5 days and you are good as new… Oh brother! What a dope can this medical staff be—- Quack, Quack, Quack……
@Bumbum: I can relate. I hurt my ankle when I was 15 and the family doctor says no x-ray needed, just a sprain. I learned more than 30 years later that it was fractured in 2 places and had not healed properly. Now it’s in pain all the time as I do my favorite things: ballroom and Latin dancing, and tennis.
@earmbrister: Thanks for the summary of the Jocketty interview. A sigh of relief about the extent of the surgery. Curiously, I haven’t been able to find a report on the surgery at mlb.com or by Fay.
http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/2012/07/17/votto-aggravated-the-knee-sunday/
Does this put to rest some of the speculation?
That additional information they released justifies their position, it doesn’t explain who needs to be fired. Reds fans always seem to need to find somebody to blame or to have fired, so how does that article help? I guess it mentions that same trainer that the Reds sent to the All Star Game – maybe he should be fired.