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Posted at Better Off Red. Richard from Springboro, don’t get your hopes up. It’s just a day of rest for Joey MVP, not a demotion to AAA Louisville. Super Todd Frazier takes his place in the first base slot. The folks who don’t like Zack Cozart batting first and Drew Stubbs batting second will surely be relieved by the change to have Stubbs lead-off and Cozart follow.
Stubbs CF
Cozart SS
Frazier 1B
Phillips 2B
Bruce RF
Rolen 3B
Heisey LF
Hanigan C
Arroyo P
On first glance, I was too busy angrily laughing at the major lineup change being swapping those two guys to notice that Votto AND Ludwick are out tonight.
I know Votto is tired/hurt (?) and Luds had a rough night, but whatever. Maybe this will be a win. Maybe.
I hope Votto doesn’t get Pipp’d. But, at least Cairo isn’t playing 1st like I feared.
Looking at this lineup gives me a rosy glow in my nose and cheeks.
Or maybe that’s the rum.
Still celebrating the sweep? Good man.
Cozart will hopefully shine in a spot I think he is more capable of playing at. Stubbs recently hasn’t seemed capable of hitting a ball off a tee, though. Cozart might just give the Reds all the “benefits” of his time at leadoff while having the extra pressure of a pre-recorded out.
I was REALLY hoping Phillips had been moved back to leadoff with Cozart 2nd and either Rolen or Frazier 4th.
Well, at least one of those things happened. Baby steps.
If Frazier is batting 3rd why is Bruce still batting 5th? I’m not sure where I would put him, but with Votto out a lot could be done with the lineup to maximize base runners at the top of the order. Put Phillips in the 2 spot and put Bruce or Heisey in at cleanup. I’ll admit, I don’t know, but this really isn’t that much of a shakeup outside of Votto not being there.
However, I do think it’s interesting that Dusty is willing to bat Frazier closer to the heart of the order. I hope he responds well and a light goes off in Dusty’s head where he’s like “HEY! This kid CAN hit in the middle of the lineup!”
Then maybe Phillips will be back at leadoff with Frazier hitting cleanup, and all will be right in the world.
I’m even more interested in tomorrow’s lineup now. Back to the usual or does anyone see a real shuffle happening when Mr. Votto returns?
It would interesting to see an analysis of this batting order compared to the same order flipped.
So we bench the two hot hitters of Heisey and Votto…I guess we can call this one the giveaway game…
Ugh, I can’t type…meant Ludwick not Heisey
Why do people still insist on saying things like this? So often it’s proven wrong.
The Reds have every intention and possibility of winning tonight’s game with this lineup.
@Mwv:
You can hope. I’m sure this has been pointed out, but Frazier has the same number of HRs as Phillips in about 130 fewer ABs. Frazier also has a SLG % more than 100 points higher than Phillips; in fact, the second highest on the team next to only Mr. MVP.
If that doesn’t scream cleanup hitter, I don’t know what does. It’s just pure stubborness that Dusty won’t even TRY it, even though Phillips himself has said he wants to go back to leading off.
I just don’t understand. Frazier isn’t good enough to hit cleanup. But, he is good enough to hit 3rd? Then, we have to rest our star (understandably because of his knee). So, Baker takes out Ludwick and Votto. I can understand Frazier going in. But, he also puts Stubbs in? Still, I could understand Stubbs starting, but not hitting over the 7 hole. He takes out Ludwick, an outfielder who is putting up great numbers for the last month, numbers that could help us counter losing Votto today, and instead, he puts in Stubbs?
@rfay00: Heisey’s in the lineup and Votto hasn’t been hot. Dusty admitted that Votto’s knee still bothers him when he runs.
Frazier in for Votto for one game is something a lot of people here have been suggesting.
I don’t know what to say about Dusty’s lineup today, but I posted this in game recap thread before noticing the more appropriate thread…
I’m so glad that Dusty decided to play Frazier while Votto sits, but I’m not buying Dusty’s argument that Votto is tired. We just finished a 4 day all star break, so even for the players selected as all stars, that was 3 days without any games played. Then 3 games later a player needs a day off because he’s tired? Yeah, right.
Playing Frazier at 1B with Votto out is almost mind boggling, but I’ll take whatever crumbs Mr. Baker wants to spread around in order to make the lineup more effective, for any reason.
Playing Frazier and Rolen together in a lineup and hitting Frazier ahead of Rolen is also equally mind boggling, but again the crumbs thing.
Sitting Ludwick when Votto is out of the lineup… well I guess there are only so many crumbs available.
Wait a minute, Frazier is good enough to hit in the #3 hole, but not good enough to hit in the #4 hole? How does that make any sense whatsoever?
Pretty much agree. In effect, from yesterday, it took out Votto and Ludwick, put in Frazier and Stubbs. Offensively, we would take a hit with Votto out, period. With this, we take a huge hit.
Votto a rest. Bogus. It’s his knee.
I was thinking, I don’t know what this speed thing is Baker has with Stubbs. After all, speed means little if you can’t hit. 3rd season now, getting worse every year. Best season ever hitting, 277, in the minors. Something needs to change.
I guess the logic with Cozart-Stubbs is that Cozart has done better in the number 2 hole and Stubbs won’t get on base either way.
Seriously, I understand that Dusty is not giving up on Stubbs. Batting 7th has helped him in the past. And 7th is a better place for a guy who’s struggling so seriously.
8th would be better yet but he’s not a catcher so that’s out.
@pinson343: Twisted logic to be sure but……it just might work. I look forward to Stubbs getting it going tonight. Why? What little choice do I have? He is going to hit first or second as long as he is drawing a breath. I’m rooting harder for him than any player I ever have. Please, oh please Mr. Stubbs, get the ball rolling tonight and prove all us naysayers in error.
Wait wait wait…
You can’t hit Votto and Bruce back to back…
But it’s OK to hit Frazier and Phillips back to back in the same two spots…
I need more rum.
I do hope this signals Dusty’s willingness to hit Frazier higher in the order going forward.
Then if the Reds can trade a package like Stubbs, Didi, and Stephenson for Span, can you imagine this lineup going forward?
CF Span
2B Phillips
1B Votto
3B Frazier
RF Bruce
LF Ludwick
SS Cozart
C Hanigan/Mesoraco
That would be a dangerous lineup top to bottom.
I think the Pirates would trade McCutcheon for that package!
Really? Then do it. The Reds have enough organizational depth at both SS and SP to afford to part with 2 of them.
Ah, don’t know if you have checked the standings lately but the Pirates are “1″ game out of first place and there is a very good chance that Andrew McCutchen is the best player in the game, right now. Don’t think the Pirates are thinking beyond 2012….at the moment.
@CharlotteNCRedsFan:
Anyone aware that the Pirates are in the same division as the Reds? And both teams are competitive.
A meaningful trade between them is never going to happen.
That line-up might just get the Reds World Series rings!
Stubbs has a nice history batting leadoff…not. I hope/pray Dusty’s only showcasing him for a trade. Then again, you never know with Toothpick. Just think how damn good this team would be with two guys who actually glogged the bases in front of Votto! I know, Joey is out tonight but you get my point. Phillips then Heisey should bat 1-2.
@pinson343: Unfortunately, I think we’re running out of lineup spots that have “helped” Stubbs be productive for stretches. 7, 2, can’t hold down the 1… perhaps it’s less the spot and more Stubbs. But I agree, 7 or 8 is a nice place to put him and at least have the threat of his power and speed hiding out there. If he’s playing at all.
@pinson343:
pinson, in the #2 spot, stubbs was hitting pretty well before he hurt his oblique. since coming back from that he has struggled mightily, makes me wonder if he is still hurt a bit.
anyway, hey at least Dusty is “shaking” it up, in his own way! as others have mentioned, got to be impressed he has Frazier hitting 3rd. Never would thought he would do that.
Now if Dusty can marinate his way to see this lineup, lol:
Phillips
Frazier
Votto
Ludwick/Heisey
Bruce
then some mix of bottom 3:
Stubbs
Hanigan/Meso
Cozart
regardless, good the Reds came thru with sweep of Cards.
@RC: Righties are exempt from that law, RC. It’s only lefties that get discriminated against. Can’t play SS, C, 3B, or 2B, can’t hit back to back… it’s a hard knock life. But if you can throw over 88mph, there’s a good chance you can be a reliever for 15 years!
@Matt WI: Don’t forget they are just plain wierd too…
@BloodyHo: But at least we can shop at Ned Flanders’ Leftorium. That’s right, I’m outing myself. I bear the curse of the southpaw.
Reds…12 games over .500
Reds….NL Central Leader
Reds…2nd best NL record
Reds…4th best ML record
Hate to say it, but those are the real numbers that matter and that means Dusty ain’t doing that bad…
That’s just taking a 30,000ft view. It’s obvious to anyone willing to watch a few games and use common sense that Dusty doesn’t make the smartest moves with the players he’s got.
It turns out that the amount of talent you have is much more important than how you use it, and Dusty is benefiting from having a talented team.
If anyone deserves credit it’s Bryan Price, since seemingly every pitcher they have is doing well.
@wally mo:
Really?
So it all amounts to Dusty “benefiting from having a talented team”?
The Reds have:
(1) No leadoff hitter
(2) No cleanup hitter
(3) NO (none whatsoever) bench
(4) No (take your pick, 2 of 3) 3B, LF, CF
Yeah, this roster is a POWERHOUSE …
Cue the people saying without Dusty we would be 20 games over .500
For everyone hoping that Frazier in the 3rd spot means something about where Dusty will hit him going forward, I’d say don’t hold your breath.
Dusty always puts a sub in the spot of the guy who’s resting. Cairo would be hitting 3rd also if he was playing for Votto.
Really all that’s changed here is that he’s flipped Stubbs and Cozart, and I really can’t come up with a less meaningful change to the lineup.
The only thing that makes me feel good about tonight is that Stubbs, Frazier, and Cozart all hit well against lefties. Ludwick has killed lefties this year though, so I’d rather see him than Heisey if Stubbs is going to play.
There’s no pressure on Frazier batting third since Stubbs/Cozart are hitting in front of him. If he was batting cleanup, then Votto or Phillips might be on base in front of him. It’s all about reducing stress, man. Get with the program.
Seriously, I would so much rather have Phillips one or two, Joey third, Todd fourth, and Jay fifth. It keeps the streams from crossing by breaking up the leftys, it puts people on base before the big bats, etc.
I’d actually like to see Jay rested for mental health’s sake, but with Joey hurting that doesn’t seem likely soon.
The A’s are looking for shortstop help…
Wonder what they would give for Gregorious…
@rfay00:
It’s an interesting idea, but I have to think that it’d be a prospect for prospect deal, since the A’s are trying to contend as well. I doubt they’d give up a piece off of their big league club for him.
Word out of Milwaukee is Zach G. is being given a 9 day break and won’t pitch in the upcoming Reds series in cincy…hmm say it’s not injury or trade issue…
Thinking about the platoon splits a little more:
OPS vs R / vs L
Frazier .914/.930
Stubbs .584/.804
Rolen .553/.546
Ludwick .740/.931
Heisey .713/.730
Those numbers suggest that Frazier should always play and Rolen should never play. From there, vs. RH the Reds should play Ludwick and Heisey, and vs. LH they should play Ludwick and Stubbs.
That basically means that based on performance this year, Frazier has won the 3B job, and Ludwick has won the LF job (though vs. RH it’s close enough that you could justify going with either Heisey or Ludwick, depending on matchups or whatever).
The real competition should be between Stubbs and Heisey in CF, and right now Stubbs is making a strong case never to play against RH starters.
I would love to see Stubbs and Rolen as part time players with Heisey and Frazier in there full time. Not gonna happen this year. Wins are what we want and as long as the REDS are winning Crusty Dusty won’t be changing a thing. It B what It B! Lets keep this Winning thing going, Come on Stubbie get on base at least a few times tonight so King Frazier can Blast ya in!
Are we absolutely certain Dusty Baker isn’t secretly working for a different team?
The reason that Frazier is hitting 3rd is that he is replacing Votto and it disrupts the rest of team the least. Swapping Cozart and Stubbs is essentially meaningless because although I like Cozart and (unlike many) like Stubbs, neither should be hitting at the top of the order.
@wally mo: They’d give up Johnny Gomes!!
@LWBlogger: Actually, Gomes has been pretty good this year in his fairly limited duties (185 PA). He has 10 HR and a nice OPS of .851 mostly as a DH (22 starts) but with 18 starts in LF.
Can someone explain to me WHY Joey Votto needed “minor” knee surgery today?
@dn4192:
You can’t just post something like that and not produce a link with more information.
Bob Hertzel is reporting it will happen on Tuesday.
It’s really too bad Ludwick is already 34 as it seems GABP has helped him revive his stagnant career and get some of his mojo back.
I would not mind keeping him around for 2 more years if he keeps hitting like this. That will solve our leftfield (and possibly cleanup) problem for the short term while we address other issues, namely CF and the leadoff hitter.
Span or Victorino would do the trick. I prefer Span: cheaper, younger, and seems like a nicer teammate than Shane. I think he’d fit in well here.
@Adam Hilton: Bob Hertzel, a writer for some little paper in WV tweeted that Votto is having surgery tomorrow.
No confirmation from anyone trustworthy, but twitter is blowin up.
this just tweeted by john fay:
I’ve seen the reports on Votto and minor knee surgery. #Reds have not confirmed that. Baker did not mention when asked about Votto.
John Popovich WCPO@Popo_WCPOSports
The Reds have confirmed that Joey Votto will be out about 2 weeks. He’ll have surgery for a meniscus issue.
I am not surprised Reds are staying hushed…this could be a major blow and you have to wonder if it is happening because they didn’t DL him and he made it worse…We will know for sure tomorrow night, if he isn’t in the lineup then it’s true..
@wally mo: The idea of a trade with the A’s involving Gregorius could be interesting. I really like Seth Smith, but he can only play a corner OF spot. With Ludwick really coming on lately and his team friendly contract (if he hits like he has for the past month), a Gregorius & Ludwick for Seth Smith & Shane Peterson might work for both teams. Smith’s splits against LH pitching is a little disturbing unless we would want to platoon LF.
Move Bruce to CF and play Seth in RF…
Question. If Dusty is willing to put Frazier in the 3-hole when Joey is off, why not put him 4th when Votto is back in the lineup?
@Matt WI: Pirates wouldn’t trade McCutchen for Votto plus any other Red!!!
@CaptainTonyKW: Let’s see, Votto comes up lame on a swollen knee but reports are that no MRI was completed. Votto hobbles around for a week after sitting out for a game or two (I’m not sure & I’m way too PO’d right bnow to look it up). Votto plays in the all star game and returns to the lineup immediately after the all star break, still hobbling on his troublesome knee. His manager makes the determination that Votto is just tired and his knee is of no concern. Quite frankly, if I was Big Bob and this is how my employees were protecting my $200M investment, I would fire each and every person involved immediately, I don’t care who they are.
To me, your scenario sounds more like a problem with the medical staff who almost certainly examined Votto after the injury.
@BloodyHo:
OR … Votto tried to gut it out thru an important Cardinal series, then they shut him down.
@dn4192: And that’s another option I hadn’t considered. I keep forgetting that Bruce has and can play a pretty good CF. Good idea dn.
MLB just reported and team is saying he is out 2 weeks.
@CaptainTonyKW: Cap’n Tony, you may be correct, but since we can only speculate based on the ludicrous comments and explanations provided to this point, my comment still holds true. If the medical staff was responsible, then look for new jobs, immediately. Anyone with any association with serious sports knows that swollen knees are nothing to fool with though.
I wouldn’t be surprised if Stubbs is productive tonight, or even the entire week if he keeps leading off. That’s been his trend. If he does it, great. But, then, once he tanks it, there’s no need to keep him in the position for 2 months again, thinking he will get out of it. He doesn’t get out of it until he gets another change, if ever.
still no official word from the reds, but more sources are saying it’s 2 weeks.
if this turns out to be true, it seems like pretty bad management. he had the injury before the all-star break, and missed some games. he could have had the surgery then and barely missed anytime at all in the second half.
@doctor
If you take out Stubbs first 8 games after he was moved to the 2 hole, the numbers show he’s tanked it since then. His numbers in the 2 hole only show anywhere near decently because of those first 8 games. Stubbs slump hasn’t been since he’s been hurt. It’s been well before that.
@CharlotteNCRedsFan
I agree. We all should still root for Stubbs. We are all Reds fans, and he is a Reds player. And, I am not a Stubbs fan by any means. Maybe this way. Would I put money on him to do well offensively? Not by a long shot.
@dn4192
“7/16/2012 at 5:24 pm dn4192(Quote)
Reds…12 games over .500
Reds….NL Central Leader
Reds…2nd best NL record
Reds…4th best ML record
Hate to say it, but those are the real numbers that matter and that means Dusty ain’t doing that bad…”
Spin it like that, yes. But, when you consider, in this division, the weakest division in the league, the Cubs and Astros aren’t going to do anything, the Cards lost the player of last decade, the Brewers lost the reigning MVP, the Pirates had no significant offensive pickup, and we lost no one, and we are only 1 game up? That’s not looking that good.
Bottom line, we have better hitters on this team than Stubbs and Cozart have been. Not ideal 1-2 hole hitters, but better hitters nonethless. Stick better hitters in front of Votto, that means more runs. More runs means more wins. There is no reason why we shouldn’t be 4-5 games ahead of the Pirates in this division, if it wasn’t for a little common sense like that from Baker. Tonight’s lineup is just an example of it. No one can argue giving Votto nor anyone a rest. But, to take out our other big bat for the last month tonight (Ludwick) in exchange for Stubbs? Frazier isn’t good enough to hit cleanup, which would allow BP to move back to leadoff, which could cure any lack of batting we need, which means no need to make any trade, but Frazier is good enough to bat third?
Remember, our last 6 games are on the road. We don’t want to have to rely on clinching the division then. We want to do it earlier than that. The earlier the better. That means to be winning now.
Well with Votto now gone for the season…does it really matter…
Hoenstly, yes, it does.
Well now it’s 3-4 weeks..going out on a limb here…Votto won’t play anymore this season. Given the wonderful medical staff we have, they will some how screw it up. If there is not a change in medical staff and coaching over this, then our owner really needs to step aside himself.
Pull Arroyo.
@84PARED: It was a joke.
@earmbrister: But they have (had) the MVP and two other all stars with two all star snubs.
5 all stars on a team would have been as many as the Cards and more than the Giants, Braves or Nationals. (Side note: how did the third place team in the softest division get 5 all stars? Oh yeah . . . )
The Reds have the best or second best pitching staff in the national league too.