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Let’s recap today’s titanic struggle….
FINAL
St. Louis 7
Cincinnati 9
W: T. Wood (3-3)
L: C. Carpenter (1-3)
S: F. Cordero (7)
BOXSCORE
POSITIVES
–I’m not sure what happened in the second inning, when he gave up two runs on three very hard-hit balls, but Travis Wood was excellent otherwise. Six innings, two runs allowed on seven hits. A good start, especially since St. Louis had their ace on the mound.
–Ramon Hernandez had two more hits, including yet another homer. He’s hitting .349/.393/.627. That’s just unreal.
–Drew Stubbs (.282 /.371/.468) had two more hits. Jay Bruce had two, including a double. Scott Rolen had two, including a triple (!). Chris Heisey entered as a late-game defensive substitution, and hit a homer.
–Brandon Phillips had a huge bases-loaded double that scored two runs and drove Chris Carpenter from the game (and he scored two himself). BP also led the league in big smiles and dugout dances today.
–Logan Ondrusek and Jose Arredondo (in his Reds debut) pitched excellent innings of relief.
Francisco Cordero won't take any crap from anyone (The Enquirer/Joseph Fuqua II)
–Well, you know where this is going. The Reds had a 9-2 lead going into the ninth, when Aroldis Chapman entered the game. Four walks, four runs, and one out later, the game was suddenly more interesting. Nick Masset came in to face one batter, and surrender one hit before CoCo shut the door.
That shouldn’t have been as nerve-wracking as it was.
NOT-SO-RANDOM
–Sweep! It was Cincinnati’s first home sweep of the Cardinals since 2007, and the first time they’ve beaten Carpenter since 2006.
–It just seems like the Reds got several monkeys off their collective backs this weekend, doesn’t it?
–Cardinals arrive in Cincinnati 1.5 games up. They leave 1.5 games back. Life is sweet.
–I had no issue whatsoever with the decision to bring in Chapman in the ninth. Aroldis had had two rough outings, but he’d been the best pitcher on the staff before that. He’s still the most talented pitcher on the roster. There is no reason not to believe that he can’t do the job there, and if you can’t trust a pitcher in a 9-2 game, they need to get rid of him.
Perhaps you can argue that Dusty Baker left him in the game a hitter or two longer than he should, but it was not a poor decision by Dusty to bring him in. Oh yeah, and the “fans” that were booing Chapman as he left the field are idiots. Period.
–I’ve never seen an organization with less class than the St. Louis Cardinals. I’d be embarrassed to be a fan of that team. To wit:
Francisco Cordero hit Albert Pujols with a pitch in the ninth inning. Pujols was the tying run, the count was 0-2, the lead had been cut to 9-7…yet the Cardinals stood in the dugout and screamed at CoCo as if he had intentionally hit Pujols. A Little Leaguer would know that no one would hit a batter on purpose in that situation, but then, the Cardinals are dumber than most six year-olds that I know.
Clutch Man Monie is ON FIRE
That’s great.
(For what it’s worth, one of the St. Louis beat writers — who is generally reasonable, even if he’s said some nutty things this week — tweeted this: “Cardinals are overreacting to Pujols getting hit. I don’t think it was intentional. Why intentionally hit Pujols there? Makes no sense.”)
–In 14 games at home this season, Ramon Hernandez is hitting .489 with a .520 OBP, 5 HR, and 12 RBI. Wow.
–Paul Janish has no business batting second, but he made a great defensive play today.
–When is everyone going to realize that Aroldis Chapman needs to be in Louisville preparing to be a starter? He has no business being a relief pitcher. What a waste of a wonderful talent.
–Wow, St. Louis may have the worst defense in the league. That’s a big difference between these two teams.
–I could not be happier. There are very few things which bring me more joy than watching the Reds sweep the Cardinals. Outstanding.
Bringing in Chapman: obvious, good decision.
Not having a pitcher ready to come in after the second walk: pretty stupid.
Anyone else notice that all 5 strikes that he managed to throw were set up there on a tee? If they hadnt been taking all the way, they could have hit 3 or 4 homers off him.
Chad, IMO the Chapman thing is much more complicated than you are making it out to be.
With a 7 run lead in the 9th, if you throw a typical guy out there who has, say, an ERA of 6, I can understand that. The chance he’s going to give up 4 or 5 runs is small, even though he’s bad.
With Chapman, the way he’s been going, there’s say a 50% chance (probably lower) he’s going to go 1/2/3, and a 50% chance he’s going to walk every batter he faces. Given where they were in the order, that’s not a risk I’m willing to take. It’s not as simple as the fact that he was their best pitcher over the first month.
But overall, I agree with one thing: they need to “get rid of him”, where get rid of him means send him to AAA to be a starter.
He doesn’t seem to quite have Ankiel disease where he’s throwing them to the backstop, but let’s face it, this is serious. Sometimes pitchers never come back from this sort of thing.
Dave L.: I agree with all of the above. This is not a run-of-the-mill slump. The issue of Chapman’s confidence has to be taken seriously.
He needs to be helped, and now. I respect Price but it’s difficult to cure this severe a control problem at the major league level.
I am not going to object to Chapman’s being brought in with a 7 run lead in the 9th today. But we ended up having to use Masset and CoCo. The previous time he came in with a 7 run lead, we had to use Bray and Masset. That’s just too taxing for our bullpen, and it’s not helping Chapman at all. He can’t be brought in to a close game or to any game we lead right now, and this team does not get blown out too often. Send him down to whatever level he can get the best help.
I want to see him starting but in any case the first priority is to get him throwing strikes and regaining confidence.
Another thing about the decision to bring in Chapman: it allowed the Cards to believe they had a chance. I’m not saying that they had given up. But after that first walk, they sure did look a lot more confident.
Not a whole lot to add. Fine recap, Chad. How sweep it is.
It was really cold and rainy today. I hope the stupid Cubs don’t bring more of that with them tomorrow.
Using Chapman, great idea. Leaving Chapman in after walking the bases loaded, bad idea (again). Not having anyone warming up in the bullpen until he faced four hitters, just terrible. I think it’s entirely possible that Masset wasn’t completely warmed up to face his one batter.
Brandon Phillips rose to the occasion this weekend.
Plenty of offensive heroes throughout the series — have to love that threat.
I didn’t hear that many people booing Chapman. In fact, more people than I would have expected were standing and clapping for him as he walked to the dugout. Although maybe those were Cardinals fans.
@Dave Lowenthal:
I noticed your comments in the game thread when Arredondo came in. While I agree that it was kind of risky for a guy’s first appearance in an important game from a guy you havent seen yet, I hope they put him in a lot of these situations. He wasnt dominant, but threw strikes and had a quick, crisp inning. If he does well, we now have Bray shutting down lefties, CoCo very good in the 9th, and Masset has been dealing. We dont even need Chapman in the pen. Arredondo was slightly better against lefties than righties, and excellent against both.
I was hopeful even last season that the Reds would acquire Arrendondo, and I really think he can be a closer; at least from what I remember prior to the TJ surgery. I wasn’t able to catch the game today, maybe I can catch a replay tonight. Can anyone else comment on how Arrendondo looked?
I was watching in person without benefit of replays or straight-up angle of the strike zone. Arredondo looked pretty good for a guy in his first major league start in a long, long time. I can’t say I looked for every pitch, but he didn’t seem to be above 91mph on the gun. He certainly wasn’t the dominant pitcher like Masset or Ondrusek.
But it was just his first time out. I’m optimistic and excited about him, too. I think expecting him to be a future closer is a little too high, but who knows. I’d settle for an experienced, talented, solid relief pitcher.
It’s clear after this series that the Reds are a superior team to the Cardinals. We have a decisive edge in two gigantic areas – the bullpen and defense. While our defense was shabby this series, our looked immaculate compared to the Cardinals’ butchery. There is no comparison in bullpens.
Their lineup is comparable to ours, although we probably have more weapons. Their starters have performed well so far, but we’ll see if Lohse and McClellan can keep it up. Carpenter is starting to show some cracks.
Head-to-head, the thing which struck me most about this series is the Reds’ confidence level. We used to play scared against St. Louis — as if they had some intangible upper hand with us. That was probably a derivative of their experience and past success.
Well, we’ve evened that out, and in some ways surpassed them. We are certainly no longer intimidated by their club. And no reason to believe that arc isn’t going to continue to bend in our favor over time.
I’d love to see Dontrelle Willis replace Chapman if he is in fact sent down to Louisville. Willis has a 2.63 ERA and got another win today for the Bats. Willis isn’t going to be a starter in this organization, so it makes the most sense to have him in our bullpen instead of starting in AAA. He’s earned the opportunity and it’d be a logical move IMO.
I dont have he numbers, but it seemed like the Reds controlled Pujols and Berkman in this series, 2 guys who have historicly killed us. Plus beating up on Carpenter today, and pretty much the entire bullpen.
Bringing Chapman in was a reasonable decision. There is room for him suck. A little room. But when he walks 2 batters on 9 or 10 pitches, you have to know that he is just not right. Get him out of there. Let him try another day if you must or have the guts to send him down. Right now Chapman has to feel like crap. This was not good for his confidence and his psyche. He is a young kid who is not only a long way from home, he is a defector. He can never go home. He needs less stress, not more. Going down to AAA has to be a good thing for him right now. The good news? Imagine how he would be feeling right now if the Reds had lost the game. Even with the Reds winning some stupid, stupid fans were booing him. That was the stupid, stupid gamble Dusty was taking by leaving him in there to look more and more pathetic.
Drew Stubbs only 1 strike out in the series, and only 1 in his last 19 AB.
i have to admit, i was a little nervous coming into this series, after the collapse wednesday. this team his come a long way, even last year, a disheartening loss usually meant two or three games before we got it back together. not so this year. like i said in the game thread; i think this is becoming BP’s team. im not saying votto and rolen arent leaders and role models in the club house, but these guys are taking on phillips’ reckless abandon, take no prisoners attitude. combined with Dusty’s Never Say Die/Rally The Troops/Worry About Tomorrow, Tomorrow leadership, we’re gonna be really dangerous.
This is the attitude that wins in the playoffs. Its not “quiet confidence” or “being there before”, you win with hustle, heart, and a take no prisoners attitude. We stack up to any team when we have our horses going full speed, and in an even match, the team that wants it more is going to win. dont get me wrong, i LOVE having rolen, votto, and arroyo be the consummate professionals, but i believe its dusty, BP, and even Gomes that make this team believe.
@Steve:
If this is the real Drew Stubbs, our offense is twice as good. At least.
I said it in another post, but Chapman is baseball’s most mismanaged pitching talent.
@PeterNincompoop:
Chapman is doing himself fewer favors than Milton Bradley. If he is hurt, he needs to let someone know. If he’s not, its not that hard to throw strikes.
I’m really looking forward to seeing what this offense can do once Bruce finds his stride and stays the course.
@jrob45601:
Agreed. He’s not doing himself any favors whatsoever. And neither is management.
Dear Cardinals Manager,
Please continue to walk Joey Votto to get to Brandon Phillip when you have 1st base open. I really like the way that is working out.
Thanks,
Furniture City Red
@PeterNincompoop:
He should be starting in AAA, no doubt. But if he cant throw a strike, it doesnt matter when or where he pitches.
In non-Reds-related news, Jose Bautista is really good at hitting baseballs far. Like…really good. He’s slugging close to .900.
In regards to comments here and on the game thread about how Chapman should have been pulled after two walks:so you have to start the inning with another guy warming up with a 7 run lead? Because it will most likely take at least a couple of hitters to get a bullpen guy ready. That seems kind of wasteful when you have a stretch with no days off.
I don’t think Baker did anything wrong with Chapman. Having said that, I think it is clear that he now needs to be sent to AAA where he can get this head/mechanics thing worked out.
I have no problem with them using Chapman but there clearly seems to be something wrong. I just don’t think his arm or mentality is suited to be in the bullpen. Time to pull the plug, send him down, stretch him out and see if he’s better in the rotation
@Truman48:
For a guy who has walked 8 in his last inning of work over 3 appearances, when he leaves the bullpen to enter a game, someone has to get ready in case he still cant find the plate. You saw what happened. By the time Masset was ready enough to come in, it was almost too late.
Chapman has so much potential and the only way to harness it is to have him pitch on a regimented schedule and let him find a cruising speed. If that doesn’t scream Louisville starter I don’t know what does. I would be fine with him being down there for the rest of the season. But at least he needs two months of live batters.
The worst part of today is that Chapmans foibles will trump the real story: Reds Utterly Destroy Cardinals. We owned the WLBs this weekend and the scores were deceptively close. 7 straight games with 10+ hits and a rotation pitching like this is just scary. I can not wait to see Baileys next start. Another gem fom him and hopefully Cueto and this is the team to beat in the NL.
@Truman48:
I agree that you shouldnt have to start an inning with a 7 run lead and someone warming up. But they clearly should have the last 2 times Chapman has pitched. Which to me would mean that Chapman doesnt enter a game that counts at all. But thats not an option. We are a better team when he is pitching well.
Didn’t get to watch the game but than Cordero/Cardinal bench exchange after the game really was kind of ugly.
I think these two teams really love each other.
“Oh yeah, and the “fans” that were booing Chapman as he left the field are idiots. Period.”
It wasn’t like a good Philly or NY booing or anything. Those fans would be eating him for breakfast at this point.
They got to send Chapman down now. He’s a mess and couldn’t hit the zone in t-ball right now. If the Reds were a shuffler club going nowhere fast, they could give him some more time to get it together, but with them playing Atlanta, Philly, the Giants and 10 games in the division over the next few weeks – they need all arms on the table ready to go. Most of those clubs have at least one big lefty power bat that will probably need some LOOGY work in a key game situation. If the AC’s head is spinning now, I’d hate to see it if he walks and gives up a big game blowing 3 run bomb to Ryan Howard or Prince Fielder or Jason Heyward.
Pujols doesn’t really get in on acting like the rest of the Cardinal team does. If the Cards aren’t careful, he may want to leave their sad little circus act.
Laird is an idiot. Cordero NEVER loses his cool or acts irrational. He always is respectful and careful. There was no reason for him to intentionally hit Albert there. Heck, Albert had done NOTHING the entire weekend! So obviously it wasn’t a revenge factor. Why risk losing the game by putting him on base?
What’s with the Reds and the Cardinals backup catchers
They’re just jealous they’re stuck with Ryan Franklin
I’m glad that the Reds have finally proven that they can beat the Cardinals. Maybe this was a fluke with no Wainwright or LaRussa to deal with, but I don’t think so. Most of the team was still there, and we strongly exposed their shoddy defense and weak bullpen. We also showed off our pitching staff which is finally settled down and together. Our pitching dominated their hitters, no other way about it.
@cliff: I like that thought, this does seem to be BP’s team. He’s really matured this year. Made up with the Reds reporters, being even more open to the fans/city. He kept things quiet for this series and let his bat do the talking. This is some of the best baseball we’ve ever seen out of him. He’s always said he wants to be the team captain, it seems that he’s finally learned how to act like one. A little reckless/flashy sure, but that’s his nature. He doesn’t let it interfere with his game. Everyday he plays he makes a stronger case for that extension. I hope everyone does what I’ve been doing, which is write to Bob Castellini, asking he gets it done.
Who do you call up for Chapman? Willis isn’t on the 40-man, so if you call him up someone’s gotta go. And Willis’ past doesn’t exactly foreshadow tons of production in the bullpen. DRH… maybe. He’s been pretty good for Louisville so far this year, but it did seem as if he’s been figured out in the big leagues. Smith and Fisher are serviceable, but still not that great of a bolster to the ‘pen. I will agree Chapman has to go down…it’s just going to be a tough decision on who to bring up IF he actually is sent down.
First, I’m not sold on bringing up Willis either, though if we do so with eyes wide open regarding his past five years I’m ok with doing so.
I do wish people would stop worrying about the effect on the 40 man roster. First, if you have to worry about someone grabbing the 41st man in your organization (of those eligible), there is a lot more positive than there is negative. Second, it’s just rarely even nearly as big an issue as people worry about (example – last year the concern about letting Del Rosario go). Third, if you need to make a 40 man move, there are several available. I doubt anyone would grab Negron, and he doesn’t seem to have a future in Cincinnati. I’m not sure there is a strong future for both Valiquette and Herrera, but certainly letting the lesser of the two (in the eyes of the organization) go is not a significant loss. Daryl Thompson has decent stuff, but I don’t see him in our top ten starting candidates right now.
Deal any of those guys for a single A guy with some upside, or remove them from the 40 man and let someone grab them — it won’t affect the team at all this year or likely in the future.
I’ve had no problem with sending Chapman out there with a seven run lead. That’s what you do in those kind of situations. However I think you have to understand where he has been at the last two weeks and have somebody else ready for just in case. To me the time to have gotten him out of there was when he loaded the bases. I can even understand the Cards feeeling a bit disrespected when Chapman was left out there to walk in a run given that he hadn’t throwm more than one strike to any hitter.
The other thing I noticed was that when the Cardinal bench screaming at Cordero was that Hernandez heard them and was just shaking his head at them….and kind of smiling.
On the Chapman situation, I have no problem with Baker using him today. I do have a problem with, given his recent struggles, not having someone else up in the bullpen when he came into the game. I do have a problem leaving him in and allowing him to walk 4 hitters in 5 batters before you make a change.
The Reds are not doing Chapman any favors. Right now this kid’s confidence has to be at an all time low and their investment is too high to chance pushing this kid so far down he doesn’t recover.
Many of us have said that the right place for him is AAA, starting. This gives the Reds the perfect opportunity (excuse) to do this.
Despite what Baker said last week that he would not be sent down, I don’t think the Reds have any choice at this point.
I posted on my facebook status:
“Where is my Cincinnati Reds broom? I have some red birds to sweep up.”
LVW stat of the day:
HRs allowed:
1st 29 games- 36
last 11 games- 6
You know, it’s pretty nice really. Defending NL Central Champs. Leading the NL Central by 1.5 a quarter of the way through the season. Reigning MVP. Talented and developing young pitching staff. A team exciting to watch and easy to get behind.
I could get used to b****ing about Gomes and the use of Chapman, vs. my outlook of just 3-4 years ago……….
Attended yesterday’s game and was first visit this season. They “announced” it was a sell out, but I think many left right after getting their Sparky figure because our section had a number of open seats.
Did the HOF tour and the bench section is really cool. Also the video they are running of him is nice. As for the Reds I like overall what is happening outside of 3 things:
1. Janish should be playing but never hitting higher then 7th. Like today why not hit Lewis 2nd?
2. Please stop with the Gomes
3. Please do what is right not only for the kid but for the franchise, with the HUGE upcoming games we can not be a man down in the pen which we are right now with Chapman out there. Let him go to AAA for a month or so and get right.
Also, just wondering how many here were a tad bit upset or perplexed by all the bunts on Sat?
I read somewhere recently the Mets are looking to deal both Reyes and Beltran assuming they remain out of the playoff hunt. Separately, on fangraphs they were postulating what the Mets may ask for to acquire both (both have expiring contracts).
While Reyes seemed outlandishly expensive (and I’m perfectly happy with Janish, with Cozart available if there is an injury) they seemed to think Beltran would be a relatively cheap rental.
I’m wondering if the Reds would entertain Beltran as a half season rent-a-player. Based on fangraphs, it sounds like a deal something like Francisco & Grandal would get it done – or maybe one of those two along with Valiquette and Boxberger or something similar. At $18 mil for a full year, we could probably get a deal done where the Reds are only responsible for $6 mil or less before Carlos becomes a free agent. And he would look really good batting 4th and playing left field, allowing Rolen to remain around sixth, keeping Gomes off the field, and allowing Heisey to be in his 4th OF role.
@stormbringer:
My main concern with doing that is Beltran’s health. He’s as likely to get hurt his 1st game here and miss the rest of the season as he is to help win the division.
@stormbringer:
I just don’t see the Reds making that kind of move this season, not unless someone like Bruce or Stubbs goes out due to injury.
@stormbringer: Beltran is a walking infirmary. He has one 3 HR game and suddenly he’s a hot trade block player. No thanks. Between Heisey and Lewis we are fine in LF where we are, and assuming we package Heisey in a trade (which we should) we still have Sappelt waiting to take his place. I would be much more interested in Reyes, especially if Janish can’t produce offensively back down in the 9 spot where he belongs. But more than that, I would be shooting for an ace pitcher like Hernandez or Johnson. Take Dustys love affair with Gomes away and we’re more than set in the outfield.
I agree that chapman needs to be sent down and maybe just not to louisvile. and who says it should be for just a couple of months/ send him down and do not bring him back up until he pitches consistently. none of the a couple of good then a bad game like he had last year before they brought him up. he needs to be anle to go at least 6 innings on a consistent basis without all the walks we saw last year when he was in the minors. they need to keep him down until he proves he is ready and if that means next year then so be it but they can’t afford to screw him up this time by rushing him.
@jrob45601: I’m hyper-tense about these Cards games (I’m sure that shocks everyone); the Arredondo move is not one I would have made, but is certainly defensible. I had no problem bringing Chapman in with a big lead vs Houston; they can’t hit.
I understand everyone’s comments that it should be ok to bring the guy in in the 9th with a 7 run lead. It’s a solid argument. To me, though, either you have to suffer leaving him in until he puts 4 or 5 guys on base, which really does put the game in jeopardy given that you know by counting that you are going to have the big 3 up; or, you have to warm up someone as soon as Chapman takes the mound and then pull him after two walks, which I think is really untenable. Therefore, I would not have used him today.
In the ESPN recap it said it was Carpenter’s first lost to the Reds since a 7-0 loss to Eric Milton. I do not believe, for a minute, that Milton ever shut anyone out.
I refuse to believe it.
I had to go into a grad party right as the ninth inning was starting. Did I miss anything?
@Steve: I don’t think it’s clear. I think the Reds are a better team, but the Cards are far better than I thought they’d be, with Wainwright out, and with Carpenter the second-worst pitcher so far on the starting staff (!), and with Pujols playing way below what he’ll do for the year.
Three games don’t make a season. But they sure were a great three games!
@jrob45601: I’m honestly frightened by all this. Everyone seems to think he’ll just go down and get his head back together—I really hope so, and I’d say it’s more likely than not that he does. He seems like a good guy.
But there’s that chance he doesn’t. What he’s done the last few outings is rather rare, isn’t it? I’m sure Mike Howes has the historical details…
@eric nyc: Eric, for once we completely agree.
@eric nyc: Trading for either of those pitchers is unfathomable. It would take our top 5 prospects…at the minimum.
@LVW: I like it…and that’s why patience is needed over a long season; remember people were yelling about the Reds’ terrible pitching just a couple weeks ago.
@dn4192: We really just need more from Janish (over the season) offensively. Again, it’s too early to judge anything, but .600 OPS isn’t going to get it done. They really need him to put up about .650-.700.
@TheNatural: I’m with Eric here. That’s who the Reds should be *shooting* for; doesn’t mean they can get them. Isn’t Hernandez a rent-a-player? If so, how much more valuable is he than Cliff Lee? Age doesn’t matter when a guy’s a FA at season’s end. Lee went essentially for one top prospect.
I can go without the Beltrans of the world. Hernandez would look mighty fine in a short playoff series, though it would only help to the full potential if Baker can be physically separated from Arroyo and go with a rotation of Hernandez, Bailey, Cueto, and Wood if they have to have a 4th starter.
@TheNatural: Heisey, Alonso, Francisco, LeCure, and maybe Cozart at the MOST gets you Josh Johnson. Every SI thoe one of those players is expendable and the return of an ace pit her to add to a rotation that might already have two in Bailey and Cueto puts this team I. The same stratosphere as Philly. I’d even say with a better offense and infield defense it would more than make up for the difference in rotation and make us the NL favorites.
@Dave Lowenthal: Hernandez is signed through 2014. I wasn’t saying that’s not who the Reds should be shooting for. I’m saying that in order to acquire either of those players, the team trading for the player would have to be willing to gut their entire minor league system, which is HOPEFULLY not a position the Reds are ever going to find themselves in.
@Dave Lowenthal: I’m honestly more open to the idea of trading for Reyes. Putting him at the top of our lineup would drastically alter our offense for the better and would lead me to claim our offense as the best in the NL.
@eric nyc:
Tell me why Florida is willing to trade Johnson.
@jrob45601: Well that’s the good question. They’d have to fall out of contention behind a strong push from Philly and Atlanta. Easy to see that happening, though. Their offense is pretty mediocre and they’ve always been a pretty short sighted team. Just saying we have the bullets to make it tempting for them. In that division they need some help.
On another note, I keep watching the highlight of BPs double in the 7th. The look on his face when he comes up at 2nd with his hands on his hips is just PRICELESS. He just smirks and nods his head looking around at the crowd. I LOVE Brandon Phillips. There is no one in the league having more fun right now than BP.
@jrob45601: Exactly. Or why Seattle would trade Hernandez.
@TheNatural:
I could actually see Seattle trading Hernandez. I wouldnt do it if I were them, but I understand why they might.
@TheNatural: Seattle is a wreck. They have two good players – Hernandez and Ichiro. Ichiro is almost done and Hernandez is worth $15 million+ a year. They don’t have any choice but to rebuild and Hernandez is their only hope of doing it. They would consider themselves incredibly lucky to hook up with a talent-rich organization like us to unload his salary on to.
I’d love to pick up Reyes AND keep Janish, allowing us to trade away Francisco, Alonso, Edgar, a pitcher, or/and a left fielder. I would hope a rental like that wouldn’t require ALL four.
Janish can go back to the bench and play off days for Reyes or injury vacations for Rolen.
Looks like eric has left for the evening. I was hoping to hear why he thought they would even trade him, as well as why that package of players would get the job done.
He is signed for a few years, for a pretty decent contract from the team’s standpoint. If he’s not the best pitcher in the NL now, he probably will be very soon. They go into a new ballpark next year I think. And there is that thing with MLB and MLBPA about spending their revenue sharing on major league contracts. So he isnt going anywhere.
They have Stanton, Morrison, and Coughlin in the outfield. So no need for Heisey.
Gabby Sanchez at first, so no need for Alonso.
Ramirez at short, so no need for Cozart.
I keep thinking they had a hot prospect at 3rd in spring training, so they might not want Fransisco.
And they go with young, hard throwing, high ceiling pitchers. So LeCure would be buried farther down the depth chart there than he is here.
The Cards are whining in the media…on the confrontation with Cordero and the whining of Carpenter.
Wow, wow, and wow. Carpenter really is a prima dona. Poorly groomed mound. Smoke from the fireworks the homerun you gave up? Time to quit pitching, get a teaching license, and start explaining things to the kids. He’s better suited for that. I love that they pounded him. If I’m a St. Louis fan (and thank heavens I’m not!), you have to be at least realize that the Reds took it to them and didn’t get beat by their top guy like last season. This race will be tight for months to come, but the Reds are here to stay.
@Bill Lack:
Shouldnt be surprised, but really? Poor mound that Wood just pitched on with no trouble? Firework smoke? Bad luck (and bad positioning by himself) on the throw to 3rd. This guy is usually a very good pitcher, one of the best in baseball. But I would still rather have a staff of 12 Volquez and Chapmans than have this guy on my team.
@jrob45601: All good points, but it still seems to me like you’re over valuing their entire roster. Are the Marlins a team in total shambles in need of starters at 3 or 4 positions? No. But a guy like Heisey is an instant starter SOMEWHERE in their outfield. Alonso is their starting first baseman within a year. Francisco is a lefty power hitter off their bench if not a future trading chip. And after losing Johnson, LeCure is a solid option as a 4-5 starter in their rotation. Cozart is a top prospect who can play three infield positions at a high level and has a live bat. In a division with Philly and Atlanta, that is a big bounty for one starter who isnt putting them in the playoffs as it is.
Big trades are made all the time for less, especially at the deadline. We will almost certainly be buyers this year and teams like the Marlins and Mariners will almost certainly be sellers. These aren’t unrealistic trade proposals. Still, even where we are isn’t bad. If Cueto and Bailey can keep this up we might not even need another arm in the rotation.
With all the talk from the Cards the last couple years about slippery baseballs, mounds, smoke, medical staff etc, there seems to be only a few explanations:
1) I havent heard anyone else complain, so maybe they really are just cry babies.
2) Number 1 is not true, and the Cards just have a lot less class than other teams/players, who just deal with it and keep their mouths shut.
Or if neither of those are true, then this has to be it:
3) The only 9 games that we actually try to win in a given season, is the 9 home games we have against the Cards.
@eric nyc:
Gabby Sanchez is currently hitting .331/.410/.538 (.948 OPS, 7 hr, 25 rbi). Last year as a rookie .273/.341/.448 (.789, 19, 85).
Our front office doesnt see Heisey as a starter, or Cozart as a top prospect at 3 positions. Not saying I agree, but I still dont see how Florida would want those guys for 1 of the best pitchers in baseball.
And once again, they CAN’T trade him. If they do, they may never see another dollar in revenue sharing money again.
@jrob45601: You’ll have to explain that last bit about revenue sharing to me. I honestly don’t know what you mean.
As for Heisey, the only reason hes not a starter is because of the Dusty/Gomes love affair. He’s a starting outfielder on 25 or more major league teams including Florida. The only reason I’d even suggest us letting him go is because we have Sappelt in the wings. You continue to have a good point about Alonso and Sanchez. And maybe thats why that makes Hernandez a better target, but the fact is Alonso is a starting first baseman for a lot of teams and he isn’t sniffing the field for this team in his 20s so we have to get SOMETHING for him soon.
@preach:
12 pitch inning against Punto, Pujols, Holliday. Looking back at the box score, he only threw 6 pitches for strikes, but they didnt hit him hard.
@preach: He looked a little nervous at first, struggling to find the zone. But once he did he got three pretty easy outs. Didnt look overpowering but that could change.
@eric nyc:
Alonso isnt going to Seattle either, they traded Cliff Lee for Smoak, who is a first baseman, and not much else.
The revenue sharing comment is about the leaked financial statements last year. The Marlins and Pirates were investigated by MLB for not using their revenue sharing dollars to help them be competitive, which is the purpose of the system. To get MLB off their backs, the Marlins signed Johnson to a nice fat contract, and promised that they were pooling money and prospects in order to make a run like the Indians did when their ballpark opened in the 90s. They supposedly have kept money in pocket to start signing these players to long term deals, as well as add free agents and put a good team in front of sell out crowds at the new stadium.
@jrob45601: Well, I can’t magine Florida getting in trouble for trading Johnson for a treasure trove of potential talent like I suggested. That’s not a salary-dumping move, clearly. That’s a solid franchise improving move.
And just because Seattle has a guy like Smoak doesn’t mean they wouldn’t be interested in Alonso. Alonso is one of the top prospects in baseball. If he wasn’t being blocked by the best player in the NL he would at the very least be on the bench with the big club. He has the potential to be better than Smoak or even Sanchez, and even if they don’t see him that way he is at the very least a valuable asset for any organization, even if it is in a future trade. The bottom line is he will be an integral piece in whatever mid season trade we make this year and not many teams have a Votto or a Pujols blocking him at first.
@TheNatural: I didn’t realize that. Never mind anything I said. For some reason I thought he was a rental. I thought I read or heard it.
@eric nyc: Eric: no matter what shape a team is in, an ace with a favorable team contract is not going to be traded for five marginal players.
If you find three outstanding prospects, that’s a different matter. None of your five suggested guys are outstanding prospects.
@Dave Lowenthal: I keep getting this response, but all I can think of is that Milwaukee got Grienke for 3 AAA prospects, and the Brewers got a starting SS out of the deal, too. What I proposed was 2-3 immediate starters and 2 high value prospects. For a team out of contention at the deadline, I don’t see how that is unfathomable. If anything that sounds like a monster deal. I mean we aren’t trading Meseraco or Bailey. Maybe Hamilton sweetens it enough? I’d gladly throw in Volquez if someone thought they could still salvage him into a starter. The fact is this organization is loaded right now and this is the year to make a big time move. We’re right on the cusp of being truly elite and an ace pitcher would oust us over the edge without having to dip into out immediate starting lineup.
@Matt WI: Personally, this is great by me. If they want to whine and cry, cool. Poorly conditioned mound, I love it. Maybe we should start a rumor that we are putting helium in the ball when Carpenter pitches next time.
@Steve: I’d agree that his previous numbers suggest a solid reliever, actually a bit better than that, a good guy to have. But one of the best in the AL—no (Dusty’s quote). Plus who knows, off of TJ surgery.
@eric nyc:
Three things about Grienke: Not as good of a contract from the team’s perspective.
Not nearly as good a pithcher as Johnson.
He pretty much demanded to be traded.
When a player demands to be traded, his value drops dramaticly, even as much to half.
@eric nyc: Greinke went for a B+, B, and B-/C+ prospect, and a younger SS than the one he replaced. Of the five you mention, they grade out at B+ (Alonso), B- (Francisco, and that’s probably dropped a bit), C+ (Cozart), C (Lecure), and Heisey is at the absolute best an average LF. That’s a lesser package by probably 10-15%, and Johnson has a more favorable contract (and is better also).
For Johnson, it would take something like Grandal, Alonso, and Hamilton. Maybe Wood instead of one of those guys. And that’s probably not enough given what Johnson’s doing this year.
@Dave Lowenthal: Like I said, it would take our top 5 prospects. Or top 3 and players off the major league roster like Leake and Wood.
My kid and I were at the game today, right next to the Cardinal bullpen. A Reds fan was taunting them with the usual juvenile junk and one of the relievers (Ryan Franklin, maybe?) started jawing back at him, bringing up Cueto and LaRue’s injury. The fan was being a jerk but why engage with him? It’s like feeding a troll. I think the Cardinals are really nursing this grievance.
Hilarious exchange on Viva El Birdos
Come to think of it…
Carp really hasn’t been the same sense Cueto kicked him.
post-Reds 2010: 1-4, 5.34 ERA
2011: 1-3, 4.95 ERA
by monkeysareblue on May 15, 2011 4:52 PM EDT reply
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he got kicked by Cueto?
man that guy does a lot of kicking
“I do not want my mom to be Fredbird”
free compositionson guitar and keyboards through looping pedal (no overdubs)
by Cards Fan in Chitown on May 15, 2011 5:28 PM EDT up reply
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Yea. Dan said at beginning of the year that carp
Still has a scar on his back.
“Albert hits good pitches hard and bad pitches even harder. And when he gets in the batter’s box, if you pray, then you start praying. And if you don’t pray, you think about starting.”–Brian Bannister
Trevor Rosenthal Update (as of 4/27/11):
30 IP, 39 K, 15 BB/HBP, 13 ER, 2 HR, 2.96 FIP
by VolsnCards5 on May 15, 2011 6:43 PM EDT via mobile up reply
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oh yeah
I think I remember that now. he must have got some kind of sucky infection from the cueto cleat
“I do not want my mom to be Fredbird”
free compositionson guitar and keyboards through looping pedal (no overdubs)
by Cards Fan in Chitown on May 15, 2011 6:47 PM EDT up reply
I might have to use that “man that guy does a lot of kicking” line as a tagline or something.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/baseball/mlb/05/14/pete.rose.manage.ap/index.html?sct=mlb_t2_a15
Hypothetically, if Pete was reinstated, would you want him as the Reds manager? You’d have to believe we would be the first door he’d knock on, the first city to give him a chance, and god knows the city still loves him. But say it happened next year. Would you put a still relatively young team in his hands? I’m genuinely conflicted on this. There’s the Reds fan in me that still idolizes Charlie Hustle, and there’s the adult who’s seen him be kind of a dick for the last 20 years. Would he take a role as bench coach to get back in?
Of course it’s all most likely moot. As long as Selig is sucking oxygen Pete is locked out.
Absolutely, positively not. Why even consider it ? I would like to see Pete reinstated at this point, and I’d like to see him employed by the Reds.
But not in a position of serious responsibility, please.
Maybe we could sign Rose as a manager and package him with Fransisco and Renteria for Jose Reyes?
@Dave Lowenthal: Yes. Well I hearby nominate “Smoke Gets In My Eyes” to play everytime St. Louis comes to town from now on. Ah. What a good weekend.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57tK6aQS_H0
@beezie687: I don’t know what the fan said to goad him, but Franklin should have kept his mouth shut. The LaRue situation was not that simple. Cueto was being crushed, and as we know, things had quieted down until Carpenter yelled a certain something at Dusty.
But I digress. We swept the Cardinals. That’s a beautiful thing. The best thing about it, to my mind, is that the Reds swept them because we’re a better team.
The Cardinal defense does not cut it.
what are the most comments for a TSR?? My post will be the 91st comment, which is pretty great.
So with all the talk of Dusty, Chapman and the bad that happened recently for the Reds despite sweeping the Lakers/Yanks/Patriots (wining little babies) of baseball I got curious.
Chapman has come in in relief 4 games in a row and walked at least 2 batters and an amazing 12 batters in his last 4 games/1 1/3 IP. So per my usual, I wondered, has anyone done anything like this in baseball history??
Well I’ll be damned (on the 21st of this month) a few pitchers HAVE!
4 pitchers have had 4 appearances in a row of an inning or less walking at least 2 batters in each appearance. That is amazingly hard to believe!
One of those 4 is obviously Chapman, but who were the other 3?
Bill White did it in 2008 with Texas. His line for the 4 games ended up being 2 1/3 IP, 9 BB, 0(!!) Ks, 27.00 ERA
Brian Williams did it in 2000 with the Indians/Cubs. his line was 4 IP, 9 BB, 20.25 ERA.
Laurin Pepper did it in 1955 with the Pirates. 4 G, 1 IP (yes read that), 1 GS(!!), 9 BB and a 36.00 ERA
so Chapman is not the 1st. But sadly none of these guys ever rebounded and had even an average career.
On the other hand, 70 players in baseball history have had 3 games in a row of <= 1 IP with at least 2 BB and a number of them recovered and had good careers including Dibble, twice.
@mike: Just noticed something about Laurin Pepper’s awful 1955 season. He was 0-1 on the season despite pitching in 14 games and pitching horrible. The teams’s record in those 14 games? 0-14
@pinson343: 100% agree and I’d go one step further. He should never be allowed to be employed by MLB in any way again. He’s a sketchy/slimy character. He should be reinstated for 1 reason and 1 reason only. To get into the HOF.
There is an article on espn.com about Red-Cardinals being baseballs best rivarly.
http://espn.go.com/blog/SweetSpot/post/_/id/10907/reds-cardinals-baseballs-best-rivalry
In it the writer says the pitch by Cordero was a good purpose pitch, that he wasnt trying to hit him “but in typical Tony La Russa fashion, the Cardinals starting barking.”
Well, look. I will start this by openly stating that I am a Cardinal fan. I’m also a rational Cardinal fan. I don’t join boards to get into arguments, but I will gladly debate a point or two with you. I’m not going to make things up to prove points… I’m not one who thinks everything is black and white. Basically, I am not your typical poster. I honestly become mostly annoyed when I read the boards of my own teams, to the point that I have almost stopped looking at all.
Now… that being said.
I take exception to a few things here…
A few quick FACTS:
Pujols has slumped, for, roughly the entire season. Granted, Holiday and Berkman have been hot, so that balances out. We have at least 3 utility players playing EVERY DAY, b/c our 3b (our 3rd best hitter), our SS and our 2b have been hurt. Now our CF may be down. We lost our Cy Young Ace before the season, and our de facto ace has been struggling mightily all year (1 win). Oh yeah… and our defense has been horrendous, and we’ve blown 9 saves so far….
…And we entered this series 1.5 games in first place.
Point being:
The Cards cant play much worse. Thus, I don’t foresee anyone running away with anything.
Secondly:
Where in the world does everyone get their “facts” about today’s affair?
Cordero hit Pujols. Fact. NO ONE thinks he hit Pujols on purpose. I certainly don’t, nor does anyone who gives it rational thought. But when your (200+ MILLION DOLLAR) man gets hit, you react. Period. As would have (I believe) the Reds, if Votto had taken one off the wrist. I can’t prove that, so we’ll call that just my opinion.
But I watched BOTH telecasts today, and none of what is being cited is obvious or even apparent from either telecast. There is no mention of barking during the last inning. Pujols certainly gives no look. It may have all happened exactly as described here, but I (having looked for it) can find no evidence. I also think that Cordero’s comments about “he doesn’t even play” were directed at Laird… and that Duncan became involved AFTER Cordero started yelling. You don’t see it on the Cincy cast b/c they cut away to the smokestacks… but the Cardinal telecast went never left Cordero after the final pitch, and he, upon striking out Berkman, IMMEDIATELY looked to the dugout and started saying “F. U” and said it about 8 times, until someone said “ME” because he then changed his sentence to “Yeah you, you Fa**ot” which he repeated about 6 times. THAT is when the Cincy telecast picks it up. Point being, I’m not so certain of the portrayal here. But my guess is only as good as the one that I read here, and I’m willing, again, to admit that I have ZERO evidence in either direction.
But, HERE is what I don’t understand…
Phillips called the Cardinals Whiny Little B******. He knowingly does something the next day that’s not going to go over well. Fight breaks out. OK. I actually found it all to be entertaining.
UNTIL, Cueto (maybe he WAS in a panic) started spiking people in the FACE, ending a man’s career.
That leaves my only question. WHY does your fan base blindly support that? Why has this man NEVER apologized for ENDING SOMEONES CAREER? Why is Cueto cheered as a hero? Why is Brandon Phillips still talking/tweeting/insulting AFTER HIS ACTIONS CAUSED ACTIONS THAT ENDED SOMEONES CAREER? Where is the sense of any responsibility on their part… and where is the expectation of it on yours, as a fan base, or a writer?
To call out Cardinal fans and say that they should be embarrassed to be a fan of that team… yet to at the same time heap praise on a man who (again, potentially out of fear, no one can say) repeatedly spiked a man in the FACE and ended his career.
I was embarrassed for humankind watching it today. Not for Reds fans… but for the human spirit. I was embarrassed of us as a people for supporting cowardly actions blindly, simply b/c of the logo on a uniform.
Feel free to call me a name… or tell me to stop whining… or whatever you will.
The Reds outplayed the Cardinals. The Reds, top to bottom, are a more sound and talented team, currently. The Reds have an amazing GM, an amazing history, and a very bright immediate future. I have no illusions about this or qualms about it. I do have issue with the blog posting, your blindness, and the ignorance of a whole lot of people with short memories and selective persecution.
There isn’t another team I enjoy seeing the Reds sweep more than the Cardinals..Absolutely can not stand them.
Give me a ‘freakin break! …The mound? The smoke? – What a Douche. Can’t stand him. At this point may be my least favorite player ever.
…The idea that CoCo purposely hit Pujols is ridiculous. Pujols himself said as much after the game.
…I like Pujols. Someone mentioned earlier in the thread how he doesn’t really fit into the WLB mind-set like some of the other Cards players do. I agree. It could affect his decision on where to finish his career…That and the fact that he’s no dummy and can see that the Cards are a team in decline.
…Carpenter
Chapman looks lost. I’m certainly no pitching coach, but his motion looks different…No longer fluid…Like he’s trying to aim the ball…
…Mentally he also looks lost…dejected. I feel bad for him and hope he can get his MoJo back, but I think that would be more likely to happen in the minors.
…Look at it this way – The Reds have won 9 out of 10 without him…some would say in-spite of him. He isn’t contributing to the team at this point. He would not be missed one bit if sent down.
I’ll never understand why fans think other teams will trade their best players for a pu pu platter of players we don’t need or want.
Heisey is a good guy to have, but he’s worth probably a ML reliever in trade value. Alonso and Francisco are complementary trade pieces, at best. If you’re looking to trade for a Félix Hernandez or Josh Johnson (who isn’t getting traded from a second-place team trying to keep a fan base), you’ve got to open the conversation with Devin Mesoraco and Billy Hamilton just to keep the other GM from hanging up on you. Then add Wood or Leake and one of Heisey, Alonso or Francisco, depending on the other team’s needs. And possibly one more throw-in after that. (Grandal can’t be traded until at least the middle of August, which is the one-year anniversary of him signing a pro contract.)
All of which is to say, I don’t think we’re acquiring an ace this season.
The Reds have to send Chapman down (probably to Double-A, even) and get him stretched out as a starter. Hell, is extended spring training still going on?
The guy’s mechanics are awful right now. I saw an edited video montage a couple days ago of him throwing about five pitches in short order, and it was glaringly obvious that his release point was all over the place. His motion isn’t that complicated, so it shouldn’t be hard to fix, but he needs to be throwing a whole bunch of pitches in a row as a starter somewhere.
A few notes after skimming through the comments:
1. The reason Johnson in particular can’t be traded is because he (along with Ricky nolasco if I recall) were the good-faith contracts Florida signed to prove they would raise payroll and remain competitive. Trading him would be like re-neging on that deal. I also think it’s extremely incorrect to call them short-sighted, they look long term and know exactly what they are doing.
2. That being said, even if they would trade him there’s no way anything less than Hamilton/grandal/wood/cozart/Francisco type deal gets him. They have a dynamic outfield, the best SS in the game, and a solid top of the rotation. 1 through 8 we only offer likely improvements at catcher and second, and if that’s if grandal stays behind the dish. And if you’re aquiring Johnson and somehow manage to hold onto wood, who’s out of the rotation? Dusty won’t let it be volquez. Arroyo isn’t going anywhere, cueto was our best pitcher, and Bailey probably has the beat stuff right now. Wood is our only lefty and owns Philly and would have to remain on the club in order ton be eligible to face Philly in the playlets, leake is already in the minors.
3. What this club needs to do is stand pat, resign Phillips, and extend Bailey and Stubbs before they really break out.
4. I hate carpenter.
Man that guy does a lot of kicking.
I want to ask a question…a number of people have said to “extend Phillips”…but how much would you be willing to pay him and for how long? I don’t think anyone would say that they wouldn’t like to have him back..but at what price?
Interesting to read Jim Bowden’s (of all people!) take on the Reds’ rotation:
http://espn.go.com/blog/sweetspot/post/_/id/10801/reds-rotation-has-depth-youth-upside
@Bill Lack:
rickie weeks- 4yr/39M
dan uggla- 5yr/62M
robinson cano- 4yr/30M
chase utley- 7yr/85M
dustin pedroia- 6yr/41M
those are arguably the other five best second basemen, at least of those with long term contracts. im not including ian kinsler because his contracts annual value is south of 5M because he signed it before becoming a top level caliber player. phillips said he would accept being paid roughly average to what the top players at his position make.
so the exact middle of these contracts is roughly a 5yr/45M deal. i think phillips is better than weeks or uggla, so id settle for promising to pick up his option then tacking on 4yrs for 40-45 mil. for a total value of 5yr/57M. i know its a bit steep it can be offset by CoCo coming off the books.
As for the rise in the younger players salaries, Hernandez, Renteria, Lewis, and Gomes come off the books as well providing over 7mil of additional relief. Next year Cairo and Rolen come off the books and thats another 8 million annually by the time his new contract kicks in (i think we all agree the reds will pick up this option regardless of if they sign an extension or not). then bronson, who is making steady money through 2013 and will not hit us any more on the cap, comes off in 2013 at 12M in relief. so by 2014, we are looking at almost 40 million in relief.
so all in all, about 28 million will be off the books after 2012, when votto and bruce will be making a combined 17 mil roughly. that leaves about 11 million annually for phillips.
this assumes two things.
1.)we dont bring in any more marginal players on million dollar deals, and we dont go out and sign another top closer. bray, masset, arredondo, ondrusek all provide good to great in-house options. i REFUSE to include chapman.
2.)increase in revenue from winning/increased revenue sharing/primetime TV money cuts/postseason television revenue cuts provide the additional funds required to pay cueto as well as extend bailey and stubbs. a big if, but not impossible considering the deals we made this year.
thats my analysis. i think we can make it work.
Cliff… good break down. I just wonder about the CoCo money. In general it’s cited as a reason the Reds can afford X or Y. Some slot it to a Joey Votto slush fund, some to Bruce’s contract already, etc. It’s like a tax return that is spent before it comes in, and then again when the money arrives. We’ll have to see what the Reds can do. Nice job.
@bearcats2004: my favorite part of that is where is says bailey has the most upside….wonder why he says that. (for what its worth, i agree.
@cliff: Great breakdown. I totally agree that we can make it work with Phillips, Stubbs, and Bailey.
But back to the Johnson thing for a second, the first thing I assumed when this conversation started was Florida falling out of the race in that division by the deadline. I think that’s pretty likely. Thhe simply don’t have the offensive firepower to keep up with Philly and Atlanta and a wild card spot won’t even be in the picture for them come August. You can argue that they are “set” at a lot of positions, but looking down their lineup guys like Heisey and Franciaco could potentially be offensive upgrades. I’d also be perfectly will into deal Hamilton. He’s two or three years away and if we extend Phillips like you suggest then we’re fine up the middle for years to come. I’m also fine with dealing Grandal – Meseraco is the future and Hannigan is clearly a good backup for abfew more years on the cheap. I’ve previously said I think Wood’s upside is somewhere just north of Arroyo without the gaurantee of durability, so including him in a trade for a #1 pitcher is fine by me. And if we don’t, whose spot does he take? Volquez. Even if we don’t make a move wi Volquez this year, he won’t be on this team next year. Either he’ll turn it on for the rest of the season and demand too much money or, more likely, he’ll continue to be infuriatingly inconsistent and we’ll just let him walk. Hypothetically, Johnson, Bailey, Cueto, Arroyo, Leake/Wood//Chapman could be one of the best rotations in the game next year.
Just my two cents, but again I agree with you 100% that our first priorities should be BP, Bailey, and Stubbs.
@cliff: That’s well done; I’d need to think about it, but I still don’t see Phillips signing for anywhere near 11M/year. Talk is cheap.
The Reds cannot trade Grandal until Aug. 16, due to the Incaviglia rule.
@ChicagoCardinal: I am surprised no one has responded to your comment yet. So, I’ll be the first…
First of all, I appreciate your ability to debate rationally and can sympathize with with frustration with your typical mesage board poster.
These are the points I diagree with you on:
Nobody on here is saying that the Reds are going to run away with the division at this point. We are saying we are a better team right now and that our bullpen (save Chapman) and defense is definitively better than the Cards’ and that was the difference in the series. There is no doubt Pujols will be better, but all teams deal with slumps and injuries. It is my opinion that the Reds’ depth better prepares them to handle them than the other teams in the Central. IMO, this gives them the edge to win the dision, but in no way do I feel it will be a runaway. It should be a tight race all year. I still think the Brewers will make a three team race down the stretch. Of course there is added optimism on this board b/c of the sweep (you’ve got to beat the best to be the best), but that’s all it is; celebrating the sweep.
As far as the Cueto/LaRue thing goes, no one here “celebrates” Cueto’s ending of LaRue career. We just don’t blame him. First, LaRue was a long time Red that never did anything to invoke ill feelings. By all accounts he was a likable guy. He just wasn’t good enough to be an everyday starting catcher like was used here. Point being, no one wanted to see a man lose his career (although he didn’t have much left in the tank anyway). Second, the “atercation” had almost completely died down without incident, until Carpenter decided to go after Dusty. THIS is what got it all started back up resulting in Cueto being pinned against the backstop surrounded by Cardinals. He is a pitcher who relies on the health of his arm for a paycheck, so he kicked his way out of trouble. It was an unfortunate by-product the LaRue took the brunt of it.
As far as Phillips’ culpability, yeah, he probabably deserves some. If I were a Cardinal fan, he would be public enemy #1. However, from our perspective, he just said what we all were thinking. Every time the Cardinals came to town the complained about something (and Carpenter was usually in the middle of it). They complain that the mound isn’t right or that the baseball weren’t rubbed up properly or they got a bad call, etc, etc, etc. No other team has ever come into GABP and launched any of the same complaints. And then after the fight for Carpenter act so innocent, when he was right in the middle of it all (he said he didn’t know what he was going to tell his kids) is hypocricy at it best. That’s what has brought about the hatred of Chris Carpenter (and LaRussa for that matter).
As far as yesterday’s incident goes, I don’t think anybody really knows exactly what happened with CoCo and the Card bench. Just going by what is being speculated by Cincinnati media, it appears that Laird and maybe Duncan took issue with hitting Pujols and CoCo didn’t take kindly to their issue. To your point, maybe CoCo did start it, I don’t know. I don’t know why he would (he’s never done it before), but I’m not ruling it out. I just don’t care. As a fan of the Reds, I like that he stood up for himself and the team. And there are Cardinal fans (granted, you are not one of them) that do believe he was intentionally hit, which is ludicrus.
Well done across the board RCR. I understand compeletly why St. Louis fans hate Cueto and BP in the same way Reds fans don’t like Carpenter and LaRussa. But what is the team going to do? Give him a scarlet letter “K” (which would actually be kind of cool for a pitcher)? Nobody praises him, nobody of any taste is proud that it happend, and that day isn’t going down in the history books as a good day for anyone. And at the end of the day… bad things can happen to people when you fight. That’s a known risk when you step on the field for that kind of thing. It’s a shame but it doesn’t make it less true.
As a Reds fan I can say BP ran his mouth and Cueto ruined a man’s career (though we’ll never be in the position to know if he was intentional or just scared). I’d like to see a St. Louis admission of Carpenter’s and LaRussa et al’s oversensitivity and making issues out of nothings that contribute to the problem. “The daily dramas she made from nothing, so nothing ever made them right.”
@ChicagoCardinal:
Thanks for stopping by.
I’m a little surprised that the Cards have played as well as they have, with Pujols not hitting and Wainwright out. That said, I don’t agree that “The Cards cant play much worse.” Lance Berkman is OPSing 400 points higher than last year, and higher than his best seasons ever. That doesn’t usually happen at 35. I expect he’ll drop off. Pujols will pick it up, but overall, I expect the Cards’ offense to drop off some — they’re hitting 20% better than they did last year.
The bullpen, I agree, can’t get any worse. But neither can the defense. The difference is that the defense isn’t going to get any better.
As for the post-game, are you implying that Cordero, out of the blue, just started screaming at the Cards dugout? That’s what it sounds like. I’m comfortable believing that Laird/Duncan were lipping. For no reason. That’s pretty standard from the LaRussa-era dugout.
On to the Cueto thing: I’m going to sound like a real jerk here, but I can’t think of a better way to say this: I don’t believe that Cueto ended Jason LaRue’s career. Jason LaRue’s long career was over last year, regardless. Naturally, he is looking for a reason, and he blames Cueto. (I have NO clue how you can say that Brandon Phillips’ “ACTIONS CAUSED ACTIONS THAT ENDED SOMEONES CAREER?” that’s just goofy.)
There was a baseball fight. The Cardinals were active participants — including Jason LaRue. So were the Reds. Johnny Cueto was placed in a very dangerous position, and he did what he felt he had to do to get out of it. I understand why some feel differently, but I’ve never read the rules for a fight.
Do I regret that LaRue got kicked in the head? Sure. I don’t want anyone to get hurt. Especially in those stupid baseball fights. But I honestly don’t think Cueto did anything wrong. And even if I did, I certainly don’t think I’ve “failed mankind” by not appending an asterisk to every statement I make about the Reds, noting my moral outrage about a moment in time last August.
In any event, this is as far as I’m going to go. You’re clearly emotional about this topic, and a little over the top. Thanks for posting.
@Matt WI: @Chris Garber: Well said.
funny thing just read on FB (paraphrased)…some people put their credentials after their name… Jack Sprat, PhD; Dr. John James, DDS; Jim Shoe, CPA….it should be Chris Carpenter, WLB.
Under LaRussa, the Cardinals have developed this us vs. the world mentality that is now full blown paranoia. Conspiracies abound, ulterior motives are a given, and personal responsibility is last on the checklist. For those letting Pujols off the hook, I disagree. This guy was whining about the strike zone all weekend—heck, the FIRST PITCH of his first at bat yesterday he was jawing at the ump. He routinely stands in the baseline on put-outs, endangering the runners. Don’t be fooled, he drinks the Kool Aid too.
And for the record, LaRue had multiple concussions in his career prior to the brawl. To say that Cueto ended LaRue’s career is like saying Ken Norton gave Muhammed Ali Parkinson’s. Like Chad said, show us the rule book for a fight.
All the stuff with the Cardinals–I don’t know. They are a very strong team with a few holes–so are the Reds. I think the Reds have the upperhand at the moment, but geez, it is May. Depth is going to play a role and the Reds have that over the Cardinals. I think otherwise, there’s a long way to go and we can’t see for sure what will happen next–which is what makes it fun. I don’t see either team running away with it.
As much as I want to celebrate the sweep, my bigger concern is Chapman. The Reds have to do whatever it takes to get him sorted out. This is reaching a desperation point on a guy with the biggest ceiling this team has seen in forever; I don’t pretend to know the answer, but I don’t know why the Reds are not getting him to Louisville or heck, Dayton, even, with a mechanics expert who speaks Spanish and can calm him down and get him sorted out.
On Chapman, did anyone think to call for a slider or changeup the entire friggin’ outing?!? Gheesh. It’s the most obvious thing to do, it’s what catchers always do to break the rhythm of a pitcher who can’t locate a certain pitch. Chapman more than proved he was incapable of making an adjustment, so you have to force it on him. The horse (fastball) was dead, stop kicking it.
@ChicagoCardinal: As to yesterday’s brouhaha, all of the reports I have seen indicate that the Cardinals’ bench started yapping at Cordero after Pujols was hit. I have not seen anyone from the Cardinals deny this. If they did, please point me to that denial, and I will reconsider my view of the situation.
As it stands, though, the unrebutted evidence is that the Cardinals’ bench began barking at Cordero after he hit Pujols ON AN 0-2 PITCH WITH HOLLIDAY AND BERKMAN ON DECK. To suggest that Cordero would intentionally put on the tying run, with those two coming up, is beyond stupid. If they were complaining that he was pitching inside, that is similarly beyond stupid. It’s part of the game, and while I have seen plenty of Cards posters (including at the STLToday website) assert that LaRussa tells his team not to pitch inside, the facts indicate that they do pitch inside. Currently the Cards are second in the league in HBP, and they typically finish in the top half of the league in that category (13th, 8th, 8th, 3rd, 2nd, 9th, 6th, 7th, 5th and 2nd, going back to 2001).
So either the Cards’ bench thought he threw at Pujols, or they are simply mad that Cordero was trying to pitch inside, when that “shouldn’t be done” (even though the Cards do it as well). Either way, that is no reason to bark at Cordero, and I have no problem with Cordero barking back after the game was done. If they don’t want to get barked at, they should keep their mouths shut.
@ChicagoCardinal:
I’m not going to debate who started what, or whos fault it was, cause none of us will ever know exactly what happened. But from what you saw, did you see Duncan pointing at his head while he was screaming at Cordero? Can that be taken in any other way than to mean that they are already planning on throwing at someones head?
About last years fight, yes Phillips started it. I dont have any problem with what he said, but it was foolish for him to continue the shin guard tap the very next day against that team. I dont have any problem with how Molina reacted to it. I dont condone what Cueto did, but I understand why he might have. But I was at that game. It had all settled down, Baker was walking back to the dugout, when Carpenter started screaming racial obsenities at him. When he responded, La Russa joined Carpenter. That is what resulted in Larue getting kicked in the head. If Carpenter hadnt included racism in his shouting, it probably would have ended before that.
@Sultan of Swaff: If he can’t throw his fastball for a strike, I don’t know how he can throw his slider or (non-existent) changeup for one. With runners on he’d be just as likely to bounce a slider all the way to the backstop.
This really isn’t a complicated situation. The solution is INCREDIBLY simple: Send him to the minors. Low-A if you have to. I would be PERFECTLy fine with Chapman spending the rest of this season down on the farm working out his issues and getting ready to be a starter next season. With Cordero pitching well in the last year of his contract, our bullpen is perfectly fine without Chapman. our rotation is fine right now without Chapman. If we completely destroy his confidence by continuing to misuse him just so we can get media attention from a radar gun then this could be disastrous. But if you just send him down and focus your entire pitching coach staff’s energy on straightening him out for the next 10 months everything will be fine. He clearly has the ability, he just needs to be handled correctly and up to this point this organization has almost criminally misused him and is endangering his career. It is very un-Jocketty-like and I blame Castellini, but this “slump” if you can call it that is the perfect excuse to rectify the situation without losing any face.
@Doug Dennis: I agree on the Cards/Reds analysis. Some people seem to think that the Reds are 10 games better all of a sudden, and I don’t see that.
On Chapman, this is way out of Price’s league. It *is* desperate, and it’s in the realm of sports psychologist potentially.
Methinks Chicago Cardinal came to say his piece rather than engage in discussion. Oh well.
Everyone ready for the stupid Cubs coming to town tonight? I am. I’m looking forward to watching Homer pitch against them.
We need to keep the momentum going. Remember that the big sweep didn’t do the Cardinals any good in the long run.
The Reds can’t relax – they have four CRITICAL games the next few days because of the ensuing difficult road trip.
Celebrating the weekend is great. But now also is the time to turn our attention back to the business of beating the Cubs and Pirates.
Go Reds!
Boy, do I agree…it’s like winning a big game in the NFL, it doesn’t help if you beat a great team one week, if you lose to a terrible one the following week.
Focus is important. Tonight is important to keeping their eye on the ball, no let down.
It’s going to be cold and nasty tonight down at GABP…probably won’t have a big crowd.
@Dave Lowenthal:
I think Friday’s nights game was the key. That come from behind win I really think got the reds thinking that they can play with these guys. Then you look at Sat game, had Janish and Rolen make those two plays in the 8th odds are we shut out the Cards and Johnny C pitches a complete game. Then on Sunday if AC was where he should be (Louisville) he never comes in and we not only throttle the Cards we beat their “Ace”. So while the “lead” may not be 10 games, I think this serious did help. My concern is how we play the next 4 at home. All four should be wins, but lets not forget what happened to the Cards after they swept us last season….
@Sultan of Swaff:
According to Gameday, there were a few sliders/changeups mixed in, but not many.
One other thing on the hitting Pujols issue…I’m not saying they’re equal in impact or talent, but did anyone hear one person on the Reds squad complaining about Hanigan getting hit on the hand on Friday? I didn’t think so…
I’m most concerned about the Pirates…god that feels strange to say. We completely handled the Cubs last time around, and now that our offense is back in full force and hopefully Gomes is on the bench we should be able to handle them even more easily this time. But the Pirates are a tricky team that always seems to play us really hard, even when they’re AWFUL – which they aren’t this year. They’re not really GOOD, but they’re certainly better than they have been. And that 1-3 series a few weeks ago was just embarrassing. Three straight series sweeps (and an 8-game winning streak) is an awful lot to ask for, but boy if we could pull that off going on the road to Cleveland and Philly you couldn’t ask for more confidence.
Gentlemen,
Apologies for the layoff in response. I sent my original note at 3am… and I’m sorry, @jdm00, if 11:30 the next morning (while at work) isn’t soon enough to prove/disprove that my goal was not to hit and run… but I can assure you, that it was not.
Most of what I have read in response to my statement has been fair and reasonable. It held true to forum form (minus jrob45601 who impressed me with some sincere honesty, albeit with some brand new information to me) by becoming less agreeable the further it got away from my post… but again, pretty amicable statements, and I do appreciate that.
A couple of things.
I agree that LaRue was nearing the end of his career… but a guy that earned his stripes by being a good/solid guy and player for 10+ years, does NOT deserve to have his career ended even 1 year early… especially when 1 year, equals 1 Million… the final million, that of all players, a catcher would have “earned”, if any player can “earn” a million dollars for playing. That guy was as much a Red as a Cardinal… so that’s not homer-ism from me…
I also agree that there are no free passes on the Cardinals’ side either, with regard to the bruhaha. Granted @jrob45601, I have NO IDEA where you would get that Carpenter yelled RACIAL profanities at Dusty Baker. NO ONE on EITHER side has ever said that. Ever. And that, in a town like St. Louis, would have come out. I can guarantee. So I’d like to put that, of all things, to rest, once and for all. Chris Carpenter is a fiery guy. He’s also the single best teammate to exist in a Cardinal uniform in 20 years, never ONCE accepting praise for solid play (deflecting to his defense and teammates), and never, at least not publicly, blaming a loss on his team’s porous defense, which cost him yesterday. He, alone, set the tone for Wainright, Matt Morris (post Daryl Kile) and all of the Cardinals’ pitchers that roll through that organization. Dude is no racist.
He may very well also have been a prime culprit in what led to the secondary fight that day. I will acknowledge that as well.
My only other “correction”, and this is at jdm00, who, again, I don’t blame you, b/c you are quoting mis-information from the non-research (evidently) based ESPN writer who spouted the stat.
Tony LaRussa is NOT against pitching inside. He IS an advocate for pitching inside… and also, regardless of what he (or Dusty) may say, they both advocate the retaliatory hit.
What he is AGAINST, and this is what he says ALL the time, is the HIGH AND INSIDE pitch. As a Cardinal fan, I can attest… and they cover it… and the announcers showcase it. When a Cardinal pitcher goes high and inside… legitimately (which was not overly the case with Pujols, and I wouldn’t claim it to be)… LaRussa literally burns a hole in the soul of that pitcher, immediately, from the dugout. They show it. He is SEEEEEETHING at his own pitcher. Hands on hips. Not in showman’s way, but in the “F*, that guy is going to get an earful in about 4 minutes”, kind of way. UN-ACCEPTABLE.
The “hit batters” stat that the ESPN article quotes is true, and is also irrelevant to the topic. Our pitchers aim for sides and a**es. Sorry. Haven’t missed but a few games in 12 years (thanks to Tivo at 1am w/o commercials), and I state the gospel.
Regardless…
My assertion remains that Cueto was celebrated as a hero yesterday… long before he made a pitch, or a nice play, or got a hit. He personally feels as though he was as well. He is a centerpiece of this rivalry now, and he likes it. Unfortunately, I put him at the centerpiece, as a coward, and someone who both the Reds fans and he, should be, maybe not embarrassed about, but certainly not proud of, in that role.
And while someone mentions no rules for fighting…. you are right… except for the other 6 people that were roughly where he was in that meelee… and amazingly kept the knives on the bottoms of their shoes to themselves. I’m just saying.
Thanks for the thoughts and the ears fellas.
I’ll check in later to read the comments if there are any.
So we ignore Carpenter ripping his SS (Brendan Ryan) a new one in front a live audience for having the audacity to change his glove before an inning started? I think there are cracks in the “best teammate ever” campaign. He’s done too much else complaining to reasonably accept he’s a stoic warrior.
My assertion remains that Cueto was celebrated as a hero yesterday… long before he made a pitch, or a nice play, or got a hit. He personally feels as though he was as well. That sir, is impossible to know. Impossible, and therefore not particularly worth offering as evidence. How you can you know what Cueto feels?
Brendan Ryan might disagree with you. That said, I’ve never heard that Carpenter made racial comments to Dusty, but that he singled him out with a profane command.
thank you for the positive reviews everyone.
@Matt WI: i agree about cocos money already being spent, i think i may have made a point about it. (not sure i was extremely tired and havent actually re-read my entire post) one of the larger points i meant to make, however, was that with monie, renteria, lewis, gomes, rolen, cairo all coming off the books in the next two years, with arroyo following in 2013, we have more flexibility than just the 12M in relief coming from cordero. a quick breakdown, in rough figures:
Hernandez- 3M
Renteria- 2.1M
Lewis- .9M
Gomes-1.5M
Cairo- 1M
Rolen- 7M
Arroyo- 11.7M
these are not entire contract values, rather the amount of money that will come off the books after their final year. thats a total of roughly 27.2M coming off the books, with about 15.5 of that coming off before any BP contract even started. so you can look at it two ways:
1.)substitute phillips contract for cordero, leaving you that 15.5/27.2 million solely to offset the increasing salaries
2.) assuming the CoCo money is what you are using to generally offset the salaries, you have that extra 10M (and then 22M) (this is after taking about 5M from the extra pool of money i theorized to offset cuetos contract in addition to votto/bruce) to resign phillips, then about another 10M after 2013 to dedicate to bailey/stubbs/etc.
then theres changes in income for the team, which are impossible to project.
sorry if it just feels like im ranting now.
@ChicagoCardinal: I think you’re grossly exaggerating Cueto’s “celebration” before this series. No one, and I mean NO ONE, in Reds country is puffing their chests out or patting Cueto on the back for his role in that fight. I think the sense of hostility between the teams is good for the rivalry and makes everyone play better (some better than others *cough*Brandon Phillips*cough*) but no one in the Reds organization or their fan base was “celebrating” Cueto as some kind of Cardinals killer because he kicked some guys in the face. He was punished by the league and we were all fine with that. He deserved the suspension and he served it. That was a year ago and now all we care about his how he pitches, which so far has been SPECTACULARLY. So that’s the beginning and ending of it for Cueto as far as I’m concerned.
As for LaRue, I’m sorry his career was ended, but no one made him jump into that fight. People get hurt in fights. That’s why they’re called FIGHTS. But it was not a “career ending injury.” It was a concussion, which is just an injury. But when you’re at the end of your career and you’ve already had a few concussions, that’s when you just fold it up and say you’re done. It’s not like Cueto took a bat to his knee or something. LaRue got off the bench, jumped into the middle of a fight (and I mean MIDDLE of the fight…he was right in the thick of it) and got hurt. That’s as much LaRue’s fault as it is Cueto’s. So Cardinals Nation needs to stop acting like such victims. It really does just sound like sour grapes at this point. You think you’re the better team? Prove it. But don’t act like your’e somehow classier than the Reds. It’s just not true.
@ChicagoCardinal: Nice statement. I do have a question, and please don’t take it as sarcastic. If Chris Carpenter did not yell a racial profanity at Dusty, what on earth did he yell ? After he yelled what he did, his friend Scott Rolen chased him and assaulted him. The disciplinary committee, which knew what Carpenter said, handed him a stiffer punishment than Rolen and others who had thrown blows or wrestled someone to the ground. Yet Dusty, who is at the end of the day a pretty reasonable person, said publicly that he was disappointed with the punishment for Carpenter, it was too lite.
This is unprecedented. You just don’t get penalized for what you say in a brawl (unless you’re a manager who starts things up again). They study the videos to look at who threw blows, who slammed someone to the ground, etc.
They don’t ask who said that someone has had sex with his mother.
About Cueto. “Why did he start spiking people in the face ?” He’s not a martial artist, he was lying flat on his back, pushed there by the weight of 50 men and trapped. No one can say they know they wouldn’t use their legs and kick in that situation.
Finally, about BP. If I were a Cardinal fan I’d hate him. But for the record, he did not make his WLBs statement to a reporter, a reporter overheard him in the clubhouse. That same senile reporter thought he heard Jonny Gomes singing something and later retracted his statement, admitting that he didn’t know what Jonny was singing. It was classy of LaRusa to help defuse that.
I was sitting about 15 feet from the fight, between the Cardinals on deck circle and home plate — essentially ground zero.
The skirmish was pretty much over – before the Cueto/LaRue incident occurred – both sides were returning to their dugouts.
Then Chris Carpenter *clearly* went out of his way to restart the fight by yelling something at Dusty Baker (I couldn’t hear the content). Whatever he said, it was sustained and enraged Scott Rolen so much that he charged Carpenter.
Yet later Carpenter played the innocent choir boy to sustain his holier-than-thou “how can I explain this to my son” image.
That’s total BS. The worst parts of the fight, as well as the injury to LaRue, simply don’t even occur without Carpenter’s provocations.
While I don’t agree completley with how Brandon Phillips or Jonny Cueto behaved, there is zero doubt in my mind that the worst role that day was played by Carpenter.
Why is Chapman still on the Reds?
@Dave Lowenthal: Sorry, hit submit too soon—I mean on the Reds *roster*. They can’t seriously do anything but farm him out somewhere….can they?
@Dave Lowenthal: They’ll get to that right after they address Gomes.
@Dave Lowenthal:
Between injured players not on the DL, Chapman and Gomes, this team wastes more roster spots than the Pirates.
@Dave Lowenthal:
He sells tickets?
@ChicagoCardinal:
Fine–don’t pitch up and in. Where is the line? It’s not like Pujols was hit in the head. It him in the arm, and he leans over the plate. What is the line? And does it matter if it’s a ball that gets away from a pitcher, as that one so clearly did yesterday? Apparently not.
As for Carpenter being the world’s best teammate, if you’ve watched all the last games for the last twelve years, you’ve seen the histrionics that he goes through on the mound when there’s a bad play made in the field. Someone already posted the link to the Brendan Ryan bit from last year. I have to say, your saying that he never blames his fielders makes the rest of your arguments pretty suspect, when it’s clear to anyone who’s watched the Cards that Carpenter is on those guys constantly.
You can take as long as you want to respond. I honestly don’t care.
@brm7675:
Winning games sells tickets. Watching Chapman and Volquez walk 4 or 5 batters every time they pitch makes home fans boo. At least Volquez takes 5 innings to walk 5, whereas Chapman only takes 5 batters.
More on Carpenter: To me, I saw everything I needed to see when he went after Hanley Ramirez after Ramirez broke up a double play by sliding into home plate a couple weeks ago. Guys break up double plays all the time with hard slides (see Pujols in the 9th inning yesterday), yet Carpenter takes such offense to it when someone else does it that he gets into a confrontation with the guy on the field? Really? (And spare me the argument that it was because it was his catcher, as if that somehow makes it different from a 2B or SS getting taken out.) This is the problem I have with Carpenter in particular; he takes offense at things that, if the Cards did them to the other side, would simply be good, aggressive baseball.
This in from John Fay:
The Reds placed Aroldis Chapman on the disabled list with the left shoulder inflammation. Jordan Smith was recalled from Triple-A Louisville.
@eastcoast redsfan:
I have been saying for a couple weeks that he looked hurt. This doesnt prove that I was right, it could just be to get him away from everyone for a couple days to clear his head, then allow them to fix his mechanics away from game situations. I hope that’s the case and they get him figured out quickly. If he is actually hurt, they should be very cautious, take extra time before he starts to rehab. This will give them time to evaluate the bullpen as it is without him, and maybe push the “prepare for starter” button a little sooner.
@eastcoast redsfan: Saw that. Not surprising at all. I don’t think it’s just inflammation of the ERA either, his velocity was down again yesterday.
@pinson343:
Ya, according to FSN, he was more often at 93 than 98-100.
@jrob45601: “Maybe push the “prepare for starter” button a little sooner.” I hope so.
@pinson343:
This all depends on how the bullpen performs while he is out. If they blow leads in the 7th and 8th innings, or give up big hits to lefties, it will just give them an excuse to keep him in the pen.
I was going to say – ask Brendan Ryan about the good teammate comments.
The team can’t shake the WLB moniker if they continue to whine every time they come to town.
IMO, fans aren’t cheering Cueto and treating him as a hero for his role in the fight. No one (obviously realizing that I can’t speak for “everyone”) is happy that the fight devolved into kicks. Most Cincinnati fans believe his side of the story and aren’t casting stones at those involved in the fight. He is not going to get run out of town, though I certainly understand the perspective of Cardinals fans, and I would imagine if I were a fan of St Louis, Phillips and Cueto would be my favorite Reds to hate.
IMO, fans are cheering Cueto’s 2011 home debut. Up until a week ago, Cueto had been on the DL. His first start of the season came in Chicago, and he pitched 6 great shutout innings. Homer Bailey returned 2 days earlier, and the starting rotation has pitched MUCH better since those two were activated from the DL earlier this month.
Is Carpenter still dealing with the hamstring injury that he suffered in spring training?
And they replaced Chapman with Jordan Smith instead of a lhp. They made such a big deal about needing him in the bullpen because he was lh, why not callup a lhp?
@Greg Dafler:
Arent the only lefties on the 40 man Herrera and Maloney? Neither have exactly inspired confidence. I have always thought Dusty made a much bigger deal about multiple lefties in the pen than anyone else.
It is completely ridiculous that this team took so long to make this move, but at least they made it. I’m sure Chapman is going to rest and then have a very long rehab stint.
Before someone else (cough*dave*cough) reminds me that losing the 40th man wont hurt us, I totally agree. I wouldnt trust Willis to get big league batters out any more than I do Chapman at this point. But if team management uses the roster as the only reason to not give Willis a shot, someone please direct them to DRH’s stat sheet from the last 2 years. I really dont understand how he is still on the 40 man.
Oh, and Dave, just playin with you. It is and always has been a bad arguement for keeping a player in the minors.
If they would callup someone other than Smith, I assume that DRH is the 40th man on the roster. However, unless there is a need to put someone else on the 40-man, they likely aren’t going to risk losing a player in the organization (by waiving DRH) just to cut the 40-man roster to 39.
@Greg Dafler:
I wouldnt simply waive Herrera, or anyone else, just to get to 39. I was just saying that using it as a reason to keep someone in the minors because he is not on the 40 man, is just not a very good reason.
@Greg Dafler: I think if Herrera hadn’t gotten beaten up in his last outing he might have gotten the call. i’m not crazy about Smith, but I’d be more comfortable putting him in with a 7 run lead than I would be Chapman right now so I guess it’s an improvement. PLEASE let this be the beginning of the “Handling Aroldis Chapman Appropriately” era.
@Greg Dafler: Arredondo is more effective against lefties than righties. I’m glad they called up Smith rather than the left handed options.
I don’t understand why everyone is so against giving Willis a chance. Get the D-Train out of the station and on the tracks. Whooo-whoooo! (train sound
)
I feared this might happen. We started out with sensible chatter and it’s turned a little uglier. I guess that’s alright. As I said before, I mean no offense, and I consider myself to be a guest on your site, so I will continue to attempt to not incite.
I can’t address each topic, so I’ll do my best to offer a Cardinals’ fans perspective of the most oft stated.
Carpenter. Fiercest competitor I’ve ever seen. What I stated was that he has made it status quo, on this team, for pitchers to NEVER throw a teammate under the bus. His reactions on the field have been documented… and compared (By Bob Gibson) to what Gibson did when he played.
They B. Ryan incident, which I did not like either, b/c I like Brendan Ryan (as someone who does not know a person at all, can), was a culmination of what has been claimed to be by the team, many, many, many mental lapses. He did not “switch gloves” as was stated here. He went to the restroom and couldn’t find his glove. A minor difference, I know… but a distinct difference philosophically. BRyan was evidently a very flighty guy who never really took much seriously (like being on time to meetings) and that rubbed the veterans the wrong way, and is the reason they traded him for a bag of balls and Trapper Keeper this off-season. We TRULY miss his glove. (I guarantee, even Carp does.)
I can accept that they were giving Cueto the big ovation b/c of it being his first game back at home… although, he has pitched one game, so I don’t put a terrible amount of stock in that. But again, it’s conjecture, and if he’s not celebrated on here for kicking… then what else could I possibly ask of this group?
Carpenter was punished for re-starting that fight, btw… but there would have been something more said, had it been racially motivated. And Rolen, his friend, initially did what I would have done to my friend in that situation. Attempted to keep 55 guys, all of which he knows well, out of a fight. There was no rage, like one person said. That’s unfair to Rolen to say that he charged with rage, when he quite obviously didn’t. Authority.. purpose.. yes. Rage? no.
In the end, I’m glad this rivalry has developed. Our Cubs rivalry is boring b/c they typically aren’t very good. I heard more from them when YOU beat us, then any other time. (Remember, I live in downtown Chicago) It’s rather comical.
If you guys would like to read a pretty level-headed commentary on the situation, my favorite STL-PD writer, Bernie Miklasz had all of this to say, today.
He and I agree on a lot of points.
PS – to the guy who got on me for the UP and IN comments. You didn’t read my post very well. I was clear that the ball from Cueto was not what I considered UP and IN. I also said that the Cards should have had little/no beef with that.
And as a mea culpa… it appears as though there was evidently barking from the Cardinals side. IMO, unwarranted. I gleaned this from the article below.
Keep beating up the Central, and hopefully it’ll be a 2 team race.
http://www.stltoday.com/sports/columns/bernie-miklasz/article_00cfa69a-7fce-11e0-8d6f-001a4bcf6878.html
@RiverCity Redleg: I think it’s because he has performed terribly the last few seasons.
@RiverCity Redleg:
Until this season at AAA, in the past 4 or 5 years, he has never been better than below average for more than 2 appearances at a time. More often than not, he looked somewhere between what Volquez and Chapman have looked, trending more towards Chapmans last 4 outings.
@RiverCity Redleg:
But hey, if they put a train animation on the scoreboard to go along with some audio and the smoke stacks going for when he enters games, he can be my long reliever. (provided Dusty would use him in the traditional definition of long man, and not in the 9th inning.)
@ChicagoCardinal: This part is obviously directed at me:
“PS – to the guy who got on me for the UP and IN comments. You didn’t read my post very well. I was clear that the ball from Cueto was not what I considered UP and IN. I also said that the Cards should have had little/no beef with that.
And as a mea culpa… it appears as though there was evidently barking from the Cardinals side. IMO, unwarranted. I gleaned this from the article below.”
I just re-read both of your posts, and you make it clear that you did not think Cordero (not Cueto) tried to hit Pujols. You don’t say anything about whether or not you considered it to be up and in (which discussion only came about in your second post), let alone that the Cardinals should not have had an issue. You did say the following:
“Cordero hit Pujols. Fact. NO ONE thinks he hit Pujols on purpose. I certainly don’t, nor does anyone who gives it rational thought. But when your (200+ MILLION DOLLAR) man gets hit, you react. Period. As would have (I believe) the Reds, if Votto had taken one off the wrist. I can’t prove that, so we’ll call that just my opinion.”
Saying that they react, and that you would expect the Reds to react as well, does not seem to be the same as saying that the Cardinals should have “little or no beef” with him getting hit.
Thanks for insulting my ability to read, though. (And for admitting there actually was barking from the Cardinals dugout.)
@ChicagoCardinal: It was a good read until this: ” But just once I’d like to see the Reds react to a victory as if they’d actually won something before.”
I’m sorry, but A) What is he talking about? B) Who won the division last year after spanking the month of August after the fight? C) Does acting like you know how to win sound like this: “I think they didn’t rub the baseball correctly?” “Arroyo might be cheating.”
Once again, whatever the Cardinals do is class, whatever other teams do is bush. Check and check. Sort of undoes the advice about shutting up and just winning.
@jdm00:
Dude. Everyone on here is pretty cordial. And I’ve gone out of my way to be. You only want to try and incite. I’m not taking the bait. However, I will point out, for the benefit of everyone else, so that they understand your research abilities, for future conversations.
Since you “re-read both of my posts”.. and according to you, I “don’t say anything about whether or not I think (the pitch to Pujols) was up and in”… Well, let me cut and paste the portion, that you missed, evidently… twice.
“Tony LaRussa is NOT against pitching inside. He IS an advocate for pitching inside… and also, regardless of what he (or Dusty) may say, they both advocate the retaliatory hit.
What he is AGAINST, and this is what he says ALL the time, is the HIGH AND INSIDE pitch. As a Cardinal fan, I can attest… and they cover it… and the announcers showcase it. When a Cardinal pitcher goes high and inside… legitimately !!!!!!(which was not overly the case with Pujols, and I wouldn’t claim it to be)!!!!!… LaRussa literally burns a hole in the soul of that pitcher, immediately, from the dugout.”
I threw the !!!!!’s in there, just so you wouldn’t miss it a third time.
My point is that all it takes is one ESPN writer to get it wrong, the blogger posts it, you drink the kool-aid, and then suddenly Tony LaRussa is against pitching inside. It’s just not true.
I won’t “insult your ability to read” anymore, although I never felt that I did. You have taken care of that for me. Twice.
Yes, that line is in your second post, which I pointed out is where you discussed the “high and inside” pitch. My apologies for not picking out that parenthetical. Mea culpa. (I note that saying it was not “overly” up and in doesn’t clarify it much for me. Was it up and in, just not excessively up and in (as overly means “excessively”), or not up and in at all? Still not clear from your post.)
Look, if you don’t think I’ve been cordial, I apologize. If you want to call me an ESPN “Kool-aid drinker” (oh, if you only knew) and making a grand statement that the rest of the board should disregard my “research,” feel free. It goes a long way toward your self-declared stance that you aren’t here to incite anything, which is pretty clear from your statements that the Reds need to “act like they’ve won something before,” your chastising Reds fans about Cueto, or your statements about the end of the game on Sunday. But don’t hold yourself up as the dean of civility who is not inciting anything, because there’s nothing but incitement in that post.
@ChicagoCardinal:
I apologize if you don’t think I’ve been cordial, or am trying to incite something. Life is too short for internet message board arguments. I will just agree to disagree with some of your points and leave it at that, and get back to talking baseball.
@jdm00:
Bro.
Again.
I did not make the statement “act like they’ve one something before”. Show me where I ever murmured that. You’ve got to stop missing full sentences and inventing things. You have to live here and you’re doing yourself no favors in the credibility departed. Your skimming and reacting.
Matt WI pulled that quote from an article by Bernie Miklasz, that I posted, and said that the article was a good read, except for that line.
But as far as everyone else is concerned… you are the ONLY person that has come to me with beef from comment one, and I’ve done my best to remain cordial with you. You want a fight. I want a conversation. You attack. I deflect/diffuse. I am certainly not the Mayor of Cordialville or whatever you called me. That is funny though. (PS – you win. This is Reds forum and I’m a Cardinals fan. Do you really think I operate under the illusion that I could come out ahead in the court of public opinion here? No, man. So… you win, if that helps.)
The Cardinals, by and large, are a classy organization, as are, I presume, the Reds. I love Jocketty.
I love that both teams have players that like to agitate, and that both teams have the mentality of being combative as a response.
I don’t hate Reds fans or the Reds… but it sure makes for some good baseball and theatrics.
I stated my peace about Cueto and was more than satisfied with the legitimate responses that were given by the posters here.
I respectively wish the Reds well, and wish for all that it is a 1 or 2 game race when the Reds head to STL. Big series are fun series. That’s what it’s all about.
Ha! Sorry. won, not one. That hurts.
My mistake in attributing Miklasz’s (sp?) comment to you.
Really, I have no worries about my “credibility” as you keep bringing up. It is a message board, after all.
Like I said, my apologies if you felt I was not being “cordial” to you. Other than that, as I said in my last post, life is too short for arguments on the internet.