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CHAMPS!

Titanic Struggle Recap: We had ‘em all the way

Let’s recap today’s titanic struggle….

FINAL — 10 innings
Cincinnati 7
Milwaukee 6

W: A. Chapman (2-0)
L: S. Mitre (0-1)
S: F. Cordero (4)
BOXSCORE

POSITIVES
–Aroldis Chapman barely knows how to pitch, yet he’s the best pitcher on this team. The phenom came in with one out and two runners on base in the eighth, with the game tied at 6th. He retired the Brewers as if there were nothing to it, then returned to the mound in the bottom of the ninth and was just great. If you get a chance to see a replay, take a look at the slider Chapman threw to Prince Fielder in the ninth. Made a very good hitter look very silly.

In all, Chapman threw 17 strikes out of 19 pitches. When you can throw 100+ mph, that’s just not fair. Everyone in the park said that it was the best he’s ever looked. Chapman needs to be a starting pitcher. Now.

–Drew Stubbs hit a homer in the top of the tenth to give the Reds a victory in a game that they seemed on the verge of losing all day long, even after jumping out to a 4-run lead. It was Drew’s fifth homer of the season.

The Phenom, Aroldis Chapman (The Enquirer/Gary Landers)

–Those five homers ties him with Joey Votto, who crushed one in the first inning with two runners on base. Votto went 2-4 with two walks, a run scored, and 4 RBI. Just another day in the life of an MVP.

–Paul Janish went 3-4 with a double and an RBI. He’s now hitting .284/.313/.311 on the season. I’ll take that, frankly.

–CoCo pitched a great bottom of the tenth. He’s still going to have his moments, but you have to be happy with Cordero’s performance thus far this season.

–Jay Bruce had three hits. You read that correctly.

–Nick Masset pitched a good inning when the Reds needed someone to settle the bullpen down. He’s looking much, much better lately. That’s a good thing.

NEGATIVES
–I noted yesterday the idiocy of moving Janish off shortstop in order to accommodate Edgar Renteria. It’s just moronic.

Well, it got worse today. In the fifth, with Cincinnati clinging to a one-run lead, Dusty Baker engineered a double-switch. Bill Bray relieved Sam LeCure, Janish moved to third, and Renteria entered as the shortstop. Someone explain to me the logic of moving your best defensive player to another position, so you can put your worst defensive player in the game — at the most important defensive position!

Two pitches later, Renteria made a terrible error on a throw, allowing the Brewers to tie the game. It’s just insanity. I’m so bummed now that I’m not even going to talk about the poor decision to have Jay Bruce bunt in the sixth inning.

–Poor Jonny Gomes is really struggling right now. (Of course, Chris Heisey can’t even get into a game, so we don’t know whether he’s struggling or not.)

Drew Stubbs

The Enquirer/Joseph Fuqua II

NOT-SO-RANDOM THOUGHTS
–Reds win the series, and return back to Cincinnati after a .500 road trip. I know everyone is concerned with everything surrounding this club, but I will always take a .500 road trip against Cincinnati’s two biggest competitors for the NL Central. That’s a good trip in my book.

–It is an absolute crime against humanity that Aroldis Chapman isn’t a starting pitcher.

–Am I the only one who loves the way Votto drops the bat when he hits a no-doubter home run?

–I know some of you want Jay Bruce sent to AAA. I know some of you want Bruce tarred and feathered. I know some of you want Bruce placed into the stocks and displayed at Fountain Square.

Yes, Bruce is only hitting .247/.306/.371 after today’s three-hit effort. That’s not good, no matter how you look at it. Consider this, however: as late as April 24 of last year, Bruce was hitting .180/.261/.377. Bruce is going to be fine. Be patient.

–Sam LeCure pitched pretty well for most of his outing, but he kinda fell off the cliff. What do you expect? He’s a fifth starter, and he’s doing just fine in his role.

–Votto has now reached base in 25 straight games. The club record for consecutive games reaching base to begin a season: 34, by Dave Collins.

–If Renteria refuses to play third base, he needs to be designated for assignment immediately.

–Okay, Reds have an off-day tomorrow. It’ll be much more enjoyable after today’s win. Good work, Redlegs.

51 comments to Titanic Struggle Recap: We had ‘em all the way

  • eric nyc

    It is not very often in ANY sport that such an idiotic managerial move is so quickly proven to be idiotic. Yes, sometimes a pinch hitter strikes out or a reliever gives up a crucial homerun, but that’s baseball. That double switch in the 5th was such a ridiculously stupid move, and the fact that it led almost INSTANTLY to a defensive error and the tie-scoring run…Wow. I hope Castellini and Jocketty hold onto tape of this game for any future contract negotiations with Dusty.

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  • dn4192

    I think Chapman has a future as a starting pitcher, but he is no where near that ability right now. Right now he is a thrower who needs to learn ‘how’ to pitch and should be learning that in AAA. I think if the Reds were smart once Cueto or Bailey come back he would be sent down and begin a workout program as a starter, but there is zero chance of that happening and in fact I kinda think we are looking at our closer for the future. Which while not perfect would be better then left in the middle innings or set up guy.

    If I am chris heisey I call in sick this weekend… :D

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  • dn4192

    @eric nyc:

    He did dumb things last year, as long as this team wins in spite of stupid moves, Dusty isn’t going anywhere… :cry:

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  • eric nyc

    @dn4192: I actually don’t hate Dusty and I don’t want him gone. What he lacks in in-game decision making he seems to more than make up for in players really wanting to win for him. That’s more important in my book. And as long as he has Jocketty watching over the roster, he can’t do too much damage there.

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  • jkbetz07

    Wow, that one had the feel that they were going to let it slip away for pretty much the whole game. Excellent job to pull out a big win and turn what would have been a failed road trip into a draw/mild success.

    Chapman was absolutely filthy … when he has command like he did today, you can pretty much put it in the books as a scoreless outing for him. I did like the fact that Dusty brought him in to face the right Weeks, and also the fact that he let him go multiple innings.

    I would also like to have Chapman as a starter, but in the role that he is in now, I would rather see him work some two or even three inning outings, even if that means that he is unavailable for a couple of days. Can you imagine taking a 6 inning lead and having a weapon like Chapman to close out the rest of the game; that would be awesome. Also, it would be sort of a transitional role into starting. Thoughts on this idea?

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  • Toph42

    @jkbetz07: I like the idea, but it seems like most long relievers with that type of role are “mop up” guys i.e. Smith, Fisher, Maloney. We want Chapman in the game when it counts and we need crucial outs. I agree though that you can’t just throw him into a starter role, there has to be some sort of transition for a guy who is used to pitching 1-2 innings at a time.

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  • LVW

    We are in win now mode and we need to have the 10 pitchers that are going to most help us win NOW and AC in the pen is one of those 10.

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  • eric nyc

    @Toph42: He’s USED to starting. He’s been a starter all his life until about 9 months ago. We’ve been trying to get him “used” to being a reliever, which is just so asinine to me. It’s like drafting a wide receiver in the NFL and trying to make him a linebacker.

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  • RedLegHerrm

    @LVW: Agreed. This team is built to win now. When Cueto and Bailey are healthy, our rotation is set. Coming out of the bullpen is the area that Chapman can help this team the most right now. He is the rock in our bullpen right now and it’s a valuable role. He will be starting in 2012.

    On another note, when Chapman is getting his slider over like he was in today’s outing, it’s unfair. You might as well lower your head and head back to the dugout because it’s a wrap. He abused Fielder with a fastball, slider, fastball series of pitches and made Prince look foolish. Not an easy task to do.

    One final thing, it was a tease having George Grande back in the booth for this series. I wish he could do every game for the Reds. I had the pleasure of meeting George a couple of years ago. He is the ultimate professional and one of the most genuine, kind people you’d ever like to meet.

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  • One reason that I really liked this win was the context of our competition with Milwaukee. Remember the opening series of the year? After many experts picked the Brewers to win the division, we came out and swept them. After the first inning of Opening Day, we dominated them.

    About a week ago, I heard an interview with Brewers’ starting pitcher, Randy Wolf, and he was asked how that felt, to be swept in the first series. He said they were the victims of bad luck. Every bounce went the Reds way. Every hard hit ball found a Reds glove. (That part isn’t true, I remember all their bombs that found the seats.) So they were going with that rationalization, which I guess is pretty normal.

    Well in this series they had a chance to prove that opening sweep was a fluke, and that they are really our equal or better. And we went into their own park and beat them two out of three.

    At the end of the day, it’s just one game. And the importance of head-to-head games is overstated. Just ask the 2010 Cardinals.

    Still, it was great to put our foot back across their throat, at least until we play them again.

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  • One final damning reason that the double switch was idiotic was that it was entirely unnecessary. Bill Bray finished the inning and then was replaced by Jordan Smith the next inning. Baker could have simply used Renteria to pinch hit for Bray and left the defense and lineup alone.

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  • Matt WI

    Chad… if you have a list going, how about a nice palate cleansing Not So Random Thoughts Thread for the off day? Those are always appreciated and I don’t remember one this season.

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  • Dave Lowenthal

    @Steve: This still bugs me. The head-to-head games that the Reds could not win vs the Cards masked a Reds team that was 10 games better. It finished closer (5 games).

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  • Dave Lowenthal

    @RedLegHerrm: That’s the same thing that was said last year. This team is also built to win next year. When is Chapman really going to start? The right answer is now. Get him back up as a starter at the All Star Break.

    If not now, when? He’s going to have to spend 2 months in the minors starting sometime. Really.

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  • LVW

    @eric nyc:

    @Toph42: He’s USED to starting. He’s been a starter all his life until about 9 months ago. We’ve been trying to get him “used” to being a reliever, which is just so asinine to me. It’s like drafting a wide receiver in the NFL and trying to make him a linebacker.

    We weren’t a serious contender(or really much of any kind for that matter) when we signed him either, so you have to adjust to what we need in the present. He struggled with his control as a starter in the minors last year.

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  • LVW

    99% of the top closers were used to starting their entire pre major league lives.

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  • RedLegHerrm

    There are certainly a lot of conversations conducted on this board that have no chance of happening in reality. I understand it’s an open forum, but it’s pointless to keep rehashing them. Bruce to AAA is my favorite. Chapman as a starter seems to be the new one. I understand people’s frustration that he’s only used an inning or two every other game, but the Reds have an organization have taken a stance that Chapman will not be seeing the rotation this year. That stance is rigid and is not changing. Aroldis Chapman won’t be starting this year, so you’re simply spinning your wheels by talking about it anymore.

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  • Chris Garber

    @RedLegHerrm:

    “This team is built to win now. When Cueto and Bailey are healthy, our rotation is set. Coming out of the bullpen is the area that Chapman can help this team the most right now.”

    This stuff boggles my mind. Let me explain it as simply as I can: A starting pitcher is more important than ANY reliever. He throws more innings. More pitchers can be effective relievers than can be effective starters – relieving is easier.

    Therefore, if Chapman is, right now, a better pitcher than any one of the other starters – and I’d count Sam LeCure, and if Chapman CAN pitch 6 innings at a time (he can) then he should be starting.

    NO MATTER HOW IT MAY SEEM, Chapman is NOT more valuable as an 7-8th inning guy than he would be as a starter.

    The only argument for keeping him there is if Cueto or Wood or Homer or whomever are simply incapable of pitching in relief.

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  • Chris Garber

    @RedLegHerrm:
    That stance is rigid and is not changing. Aroldis Chapman won’t be starting this year, so you’re simply spinning your wheels by talking about it anymore

    1. Not sure that’s true.
    2. People, go ahead and talk about what you want, even if it’s stupid.

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  • pinson343

    Today was indeed a very big win. As pointed out above, the Brewers (Wolf is not the only one) were talking that the Reds sweep in the season opening series was fluky. The win meant of course a series road win over the Brewers, and a 3-3 road trip. When I saw this road trip coming at the beginning of the season, it caught my attention right away, and I felt that 3-3 would definitely be OK with me. I still feel that way.

    The Cardinals’ offense so far is better than I expected, but I still feel that the Brewers are the more formidable rival this season. The return of Corey Hart gives them another weapon. That man can play. How on earth did he hit an 0-2 100 mph fastball from Chapman for a line drive after Chapman had just thrown him 2 sliders for called strikes ? I presume he was looking fast ball all the way, but still, and he just came back.

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  • RedLegHerrm

    @Dave Lowenthal: So you’d like to remove the strongest part of our bullpen right now and send him to Louisville for 2 months to start when, in what looks to be very shortly, we will have a starting 5 that will rival a lot of ML clubs top to bottom? Who may I ask then fills the gargantuan hole in our bullpen left by Chapman? Maloney? LeCure?

    We don’t win today’s ballgame without Chapman’s ability to come in for a struggling Ondrusek and shut down the Brewers. He is the only constant in our bullpen right now (Bray, Ondrusek, and Coco have all been very good. Chapman’s been perfect). He’s Arthur Rhodes last year, but more dominant. Where are the Reds last year without Rhodes in that bullpen?

    My only concern is if the Reds make the playoffs again. It’s well documented that the Reds don’t have the dominant pitcher that almost all teams need to be successful in the playoffs. Chapman could most certainly be that. The entire situation is a Catch 22, but as I mentioned, Chapman’s not going to be starting this year so we might as well embrace his role in the bullpen.

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  • pinson343

    I’m not going to enter the Chapman as starter debate, except to say I hope he’s in our starting rotation next season.

    On another topic, today’s post “Another opinion of Dusty” turned out to be very relevant in today’s game. It referred to an article that discussed his being used in late inning high leverage relief situations rather than as a closer (stater wasn’t part of the discussion). The point was that he has more value to the team by being used in relief in this manner than as a closer. I agree, and we discussed this issue a lot last season when Rhodes was used in the same way in the first half. Actually I borrowed (stole ?) the term “high leverage” from one of the RLN bloggers (sorry, I forget who).

    Today was an excellent example of that, perhaps the best of the season. The game was apparently slipping away when Chapman came in. Two runners on, only one out, and the top of the order up with Weeks. Rather than let Weeks beat Ondrusek two days in a row, for what would have been a miserable loss, Dusty breaks 2 of his usual rules and brings in Chapman for more than an inning, and brings in a lefty to face a succession of righties. This is not rocket science, but I was sweating it out, afraid he wouldn’t make the move.

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  • 2. People, go ahead and talk about what you want, even if it’s stupid.

    Send Jay Bruce to AAA!!!

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  • I cannot agree more on the Renteria statement. If he can’t be more versatile, he needs to go! Valaika can play just as good a SS as Renteria and he can play 2B and 3B. I actually kinda like Renteria off the bench, but only if he is willing to play 3B, at no time should Janish ever be playing anywhere but SS.

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  • Chapman looks like he’s really learning to harness his considerable talents, but I don’t think he’s ready to be a major league starter yet. He’s only got two pitches he can throw for strikes, but holy smokes, those two pitches are something to behold.

    As much as I’d like to see him stretching out and honing a third or fourth pitch down in Louisville until midseason, it’s kind of stupid to keep your best pitcher in the minors when you’re trying to win a pennant. Fay was saying on Twitter today that he thinks Chapman will be a starter next season for the Reds, and I agree with him. But in the meantime, he’s ready to face big league hitters, no?

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  • RedLegHerrm

    @Chris Garber: I guess anything’s possible, but you read anything from people who cover the Reds on a daily basis (John Fay, Mark Sheldon, etc.) and they all say the same thing. The plan is Chapman in the rotation in 2012. Now, could injuries or other circumstances happen that could change that plan? Sure they could. It’s very unlikely of happening.

    Who are you replacing in the rotation with Chapman?

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  • metalhead65

    hermedia and renteria are proving me right when I said that those moves were stupid when they signed them. there was a reason both of them were available and they are proving it every time they take the field. one of them can’t hit and the other can’t field and both are a waste of rescources the red have invested in them. they should absolutely designate renteria if he refuses to do what he was signed for. walt defiantly missed on that one but I am sure he is scouring leagues across the country looking for more washed up ex-cardinals to sign.

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  • RedLegHerrm

    @Chris Garber: I also like how your solution to fill the hole in the bullpen that Chapman would leave is demoting a current starter. Just a simple swap right? Hey Johnny, we know we signed you for a 4 year, $26 million contract but you’ll now just be pitching the 7th inning. Homer, you’re showing signs that you can become the ace we thought you could be, sorry to tell you that ends now. Have a seat next to Coco.

    Why don’t we give this rotation, as a whole, a chance to prove themselves before we uproot Chapman from his vital role in our bullpen and banish one of our starters to the bullpen.

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  • OhioJim

    If a guy (pitcher) who starts one game a week is more important than any 7th or 8th inning pitcher, then I guess must have imagined Massett et al blowing those three games in the 8th inning when we had leads. Or all those games in 2005~08 that slipped through thr Reds fingers when they lost leads in the 7th and 8th innings. The starters in many, many probably even most of those games “pitched well enough to win” but the team, lost because of the pitching in the 7th and 8th.

    As has been said above by several folks, if the rotation were a sham, that would be one thing but it isn’t. The Reds have guys who can get them to 7th and 8th in good shape. For this year at least, Chapman’s job is to make sure the door stays slammed shut.

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  • JD

    I completely agree Chapman should be a starter. But, not this year. There’s already enough options, let him just continue being our late-inning shutdown guy. Transition him next year, when they can sign a FA replacement for Chapman’s late-inning lefty role.

    He doesn’t need to be a future closer. Guys like Masset, or even prospects Brad Boxberger and Donnie Joseph are solid future closer options.

    Lecure has done well, but I still think Cueto and Bailey are in for better years. Let Lecure go into a longman role when Bailey gets back. When Cueto returns, they’ll have a tough choice to make. I still think Bailey could pitch out of the bullpen.

    Joey Votto isn’t a human being.
    I agree on Bruce, Chad. He just needs to stop falling for the bad pitches. I’m impressed with Soft J. He’s doing very well thus far.

    I said some pretty unholy things when Dusty pulled Cairo for Renteria, and I’ll be spending a week in confession after Renteria’s error. That was brutal. There was no reason for it! I do like Dusty, but he’s frustrating with that kind of stuff. To be fair, Edgar did get a hit after that, but still…

    Watching Jonny Gomes, and reading Dave Sappelt’s minor league reports, makes me shake my head.

    Glad the Reds are off tomorrow so I can say goodbye to Michael Scott :(

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  • jkbetz07

    @RedLegHerrm:

    Chapman as a starter seems to be the new one.I understand people’s frustration that he’s only used an inning or two every other game, but the Reds have an organization have taken a stance that Chapman will not be seeing the rotation this year.That stance is rigid and is not changing.Aroldis Chapman won’t be starting this year, so you’re simply spinning your wheels by talking about it anymore.

    They pretty much said the same thing about him not going to the bullpen last year … until about July

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  • pinson343

    Has anyone on this blog really talked about Bruce going to AAA ?

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  • pinson343

    I keep posting this comment, but I’ll try one more time. One can say that Renteria was a bad investment, fine. But it’s not fair to say that ER “refuses” to play 3rd base, “refuses to do what he’s paid for”, etc. He can’t refuse because he hasn’t been asked. Dusty said he feels ER is too old to make an adjustment to 3rd base at this point. 2nd base yes, 3rd base no. They call it the hot corner for a reason.

    To repeat, one can say this “handicap” is part of the argument that he was a lousy investment. But it’s unfair to say he’s on a high horse refusing to help the team, etc. In his and Dusty’s judgment, he would s_ck at 3rd base and hurt the team mightily there, and I think they’re right. Limiting his time at SS is a separate issue.

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  • cliff

    @pinson343: totally agree. honestly if dusty turned to him in a moment of unabashed un-dusty-ness and, said, “ER go man third, I know you may end up in the ER, but thats a chance im willing to take”(see what i did there?) that renteria would grab his glove and run out there. without a doubt. how well he would play is another story, but i think he would give it his best shot. its called professional pride. he isn’t manny ramirez. good post.

    @pinson343: i think that is one of those jokes that started out as sarcasm but someone else quoted it out of context and it just grew.

    @JD: bailey takes five years to stretch out, he wouldnt work well in the pen. then again im sure if we asked him…

    @metalhead65: your real name wouldnt happen to be “The Ghost Of George Steinbrenner” would it?

    and i would actually prefer the closer in 2012 to be Nick Massett over Chapman even if chapman were to stay in the bullpen. in this division, the top sluggers will all be righties next year, considering fielder is probably as good as gone. Braun, Pujols,(assuming he signs with the cardinals or cubs) Holliday, Hart, Mccutchen, soto all hit from the right side whereas its mainly just carlos pena, hunter pence, and colby rasmus from the left.

    going off on a bit of a tangent here, anyone notice the ridiculous young CF talents in this division?

    Drew Stubbs- 26 (4.6 WAR last season)
    Colby Rasmus- 24 (2.6 WAR last year)
    Andrew McCutchen- 24 (3.7 WAR last year)

    impressive. especially since rasmus has the highest ceiling, although all have 30/30 potential.

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  • Furniture City Red

    @pinson343: I stop by here most every day and I don’t recall any serious talk(or ANY talk for that matter) of sending Bruce down…

    I’m really disliking Renteria at this point. That was our off season free agent acquisition? There are people already in the organization who could do as well or probably better than Edgar.

    Did I read/hear somewhere that Heisey has been working out at Third Base? Has anyone else heard this? Whats the chances of him actually being able to play third this year?

    I really enjoy watching Chapman pitch. When he is on he is completely dominant…And the good news – He’s almost always been ‘on’ this season.

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  • One final thing, it was a tease having George Grande back in the booth for this series.I wish he could do every game for the Reds.I had the pleasure of meeting George a couple of years ago.He is the ultimate professional and one of the most genuine, kind people you’d ever like to meet.

    I agree about how nice George is, my wife and I had the chance to meet him a couple of years ago, great guy, but he’s just so positive about everything that he grates on me. Just once I’d like him to say someone made a bad play or a bad decision or isn’t a great player.

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  • Chapman looks like he’s really learning to harness his considerable talents, but I don’t think he’s ready to be a major league starter yet. He’s only got two pitches he can throw for strikes, but holy smokes, those two pitches are something to behold.

    See Soto, Mario

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  • eric nyc

    The Chapman debate is pretty simple in my mind. He’s the best pitcher on the roster – may e one of the most talented pitchers in the league – and that pretty much demands that he should be a starter. Especially since we already know he’s capable of pitching multiple innings. The question was always his control, and that seems to be rounding out just fine.

    So then you get into the realities of our current roster situation. First of all, we can find another setup man. We already have a stronger, deeper back end of the bullpen than just about any other team in the eague. You don’t think we could get by with Bray, Ondrusek, Masset, and Cordero? Have we gotten that spoiled? Add Leake and LeCure to that list when the rotation fills out and if anything the bullpen is too stuffed with talent to keep Chapman there. If that group can’t hold games without Chapman then I don’t know how you build a bullpen. Other teams seem to find ways to win games (and championships) without a 105 mph throwing 7th inning setup man.

    And who does he replace in the rotation? That’s an easy one: ANY OF THEM. Literally any pitcher in our rotation. A conditioned, controlled Aroldis Chapman is better than anyone on our staff by a mile and a half. I would gladly jettison any one of them to get Chapman in the rotation. Realistically, it’s probably Wood for now, and next year it’s Volquez – he won’t be here next year, one way or another.

    So send him to Louisville for two months and call him up after the All Star break. Wood gets another half season of major league experience and he’s our first call if and when there’s an injury in the rotation, which there will be at some point. Then next year, keeping my fingers crossed for the breakthrough year I think Bailey is due for, you have a rotation with 4 potential all stars in Chapman, Cueto, Bailey, and Arroyo with a young “Cliff Lee in waiting” Travis Wood. Sound good to anyone?

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  • @pinson343: I don’t think that’s true, pinson. I guess it is technically Dusty’s decision, but he was quoted in the Enquirer as saying that he talked to Edgar about it and Edgar didn’t want to play third. So he WAS asked; perhaps he hasn’t been ordered to go play third, but that’s an irrelevant distinction, IMO.

    I don’t care if he doesn’t want to play third. He can’t hurt the team as much at third as he does at SS…primarily because playing Renteria at SS weakens TWO positions.

    If he won’t play third, he should be released. Dusty is WILLFULLY hurting this team when he plays Renteria at SS and moves Janish to 3B.

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  • Dave Lowenthal

    @RedLegHerrm: To answer both of your questions:

    1. If Chapman were a starter, where we would have been yesterday is cruising to an easy win because he would have made it into the 6th inning or so without giving up 6 runs. You are pulling the usual trick, saying “what if I deleted Chapman from the team”, as opposed to “what if Chapman is a starter”. The better argument is the other one you made, which is that the Reds, if fully healthy, don’t have a terrible starter such that the situation could be improved greatly by replacing that terrible starter with Chapman.

    2. Without Rhodes last year, the Reds would have been division champs, unless you think Rhodes alone was worth 5 wins. If you think he was, well, then I don’t know what to tell you.

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  • Dave Lowenthal

    @Travis G.: I’m telling you right now, if Chapman develops a better changeup, and then goes out and gives up a dinger on a changeup, this blog is going to be going nuts saying that you shouldn’t lose a game on your third best pitch.

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  • Dave Lowenthal

    @RedLegHerrm: Please tell me: HOW are the Reds going to get Chapman in the rotation for 2012? I mean the mechanics of it. Is he going to start the season in AAA? Is he going to pitch in the Dominican league and blow out his arm? Seriously, I want to understand how it’s going to work.

    Note that the Reds have talked about him as closer (Jocketty mentioned it). I think that’s more likely, given that Cordero comes off the books. And that would be just idiotic, to have Chapman close. But it’s the path of least resistance—he won’t need to go to AAA for a couple months.

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  • Dave Lowenthal

    @OhioJim: You’re just incorrect. It goes against all evidence. The fact that Masset blew three leads has nothing to do with the fact that starters are more valuable than relievers.

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  • Dave Lowenthal

    @Furniture City Red: Eric advocated Bruce to AAA for a week. Just saying.

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  • Chris Garber

    If a guy (pitcher) who starts one game a week is more important than any 7th or 8th inning pitcher, then I guess must have imagined Massett et al blowing those three games in the 8th inning when we had leads. Or all those games in 2005~08 that slipped through thr Reds fingers when they lost leads in the 7th and 8th innings. The starters in many, many probably even most of those games “pitched well enough to win” but the team, lost because of the pitching in the 7th and 8th.

    This is what I meant when I said it doesn’t FEEL like a starter is more important than a reliever. But he is. I could go into a hundred different statistical evaluations, but I’ll try to keep it even simpler. A few different ways to look at this:
    * The runs scored in the first inning count just as much as those scored in the 8th.
    * Masset has to work for two weeks to throw 6 shutout innings and 1 bad one. A starter does that every 5 days.
    * You remember the 8th inning losses because they hurt more, and there’s less time to make up for them, but more games are lost by the starter than by any reliever.
    * Some guy from AA (Jordan Smith, for example) could do the job 80% as well as a second-tier reliever like Massset. You could replace Chapman with any number of guys and not see a huge dropoff. On the other hand, replacing your worst starter with Chapman (again, assuming he’s truly this good as a starter) would save you dozens of runs. Over 180 innings, a 2.50 ERA is 30 runs better than a 4.00 ERA. And so on. That’s 3 wins.
    * Eric Milton, Jimmy Haynes, Jimmy Anderson, Ramon Ortiz . . . did any reliever cause as much harm as those guys did?

    A good starter both contributes more, and is harder to find than a good reliever. Therefore, unless there is an arm (or head) issue, your best pitchers absolutely, positively should be starting.

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  • eric nyc

    @Dave Lowenthal: Yes it was the most absurd suggestion in the history of baseball. I’ve already scheduled my public flogging at Jay Bruce’s HOF induction in 2040.

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  • dn4192

    Isn’t the objective of any pro sports team is to have the best “overall” roster available to them? If that is so, then wouldn’t having Chapman in the starting rotation and ER off the Roster be a much better overall roster then the way it is now?

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  • littleleo1

    @<a href="#comment-2067780H; I have to agree with the George Grande comment. He took a lot of heat on this blog in his final year. I always enjoyed him . He is much better than the parade of folks that have been thru the booth in the last year, and that includes Thom and the former "mayor" Sean Casey and the "cowboy" . I think he and Chris do a great job together and I really enjoyed the Milwaukee series with those two reunited in the booth . George is a true pro whose love for the game comes through on every broadcast . I have also met George twice , one at the GABP and on the caravan and I concur. He is one of the nicest people you could ever meet. I wish he were back full time .

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  • RC

    Dusty doesn’t think Renteria is capable of playing third? The same guy who, as I recall, put Ramon Hernandez out there a couple of times last year?

    And clearly, Bruce shouldn’t go to AAA. He’d deprive out excellent AAA outfielders of needed at bats. Obviously, AA is the answer. :wink:

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  • lookatthathat

    @RC: Awesome, awesome point.

    I totally forgot about Ramon at 3rd. Ha ha ha ha ah ah a ha ha ha ha. I remember being really mad about that, but also giddy with disbelief. Similar to the way I felt about the double switch yesterday, actually :roll:

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  • jrob45601

    I’m surprised no one has pointed this out, cause I think it is more important than the actual results. I didnt get to listen to the entire game, but after Bruce’s 3rd hit, one of the radio guys said they were all in the hole created at SS due to the shift. If Bruce is hitting the ball to left center with any regularity, this team is a lot more dangerous. This could be the sign that he is turning things around. Hopefully he follows up with a good weekend against some tough pitching.

    I agree that Chapman should be a starter. As Dave Lowenthal says, he is gonna need a couple months starting in AAA at some point to get ready. A lot of people ask who he should replace in the rotation, and that answer is pretty simple: whoever they plan on him replacing next year. All of these guys are under team control at least thru next season, and I think Volquez is the only one not under control for 2013.

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