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The Reds have traded Chris Dickerson to the Brewers for Jim Edmonds. If this was the year 2001, I would be happy with this. In 2010, not so much.
According to ESPN:
Jim Edmonds has been traded from the Milwaukee Brewers to the Cincinnati Reds in exchange for outfielder Chris Dickerson.
The trade was first reported by ESPN’s Eduardo Perez, who received a text message from Edmonds saying that he had been traded.
The Reds host one of Edmonds’ former teams, the St. Louis Cardinals, in a key three-game series starting Monday night (ESPN, 7 ET). The Reds led the Cardinals by two games in the NL Central entering Monday’s games.
The veteran outfielder was batting .286 with 6 home runs and 20 RBIs in 73 games entering Monday’s games. In 17 seasons with the Angels, Cardinals, Padres, Cubs and Brewers he has a .285 career batting average with 1,245 runs scored, 1,943 hits, 390 home runs and 1,196 RBIs.
Dickerson has played in 20 games for the Reds this season. He has been on the 60-day disabled list since April 30 to rehab from surgery on his right hand and wrist.
Thoughts?
You ask for “thoughts”? Yeah, I have one: WTF?!?
terrible.
As I said to my friend who IM’d me about this, “Is Jim Edmonds really the answer? And if so, what was the question?”
Thoughts: Awesome. I never was a big Dickerson fan. He wore out his welcome with me in ST when he was talking all that trash about who was the better CF on the team.
Adding a veteran winner to the team is always a good thing.
My first thoughts on this mirror Cincy Dave’s. I don’t see the value here.
I like CD well enough, but this trade makes sense.
Edmonds will be great to have around during the stretch run and hopefully the playoffs. No guarantee Dickerson even make it through this year. I think we can pick up a CD equivalent, if need be, in the offseason.
I bet Edmonds’ musical taste is nowhere near as good as CD, though.
This is taking the former Cardinal veteran thing too far.
So who do the Reds send down to make a spot for Edmonds ?
I’m guessing most of the reaction to this will be AWESOME! or OH NO! Frankly, mine is “meh”. Edmonds can hit. He’s hit this year and he’s hit most every year in the past. I know his defense is supposed to have slipped, but I have seen him this year to know if the year off helped him there. His fielding numbers are good this year, though.
Dickerson… I don’t know. I kind of lost faith. He had a good month a few years ago and that’s kind of it. I no longer believe that he’ll ever be able to be healthy long enough to be a real component.
Basically, I feel more comfortable counting on Edmonds than Dickerson. And boy, does the outfield need a bat. It will be interesting to see what role he plays on the club.
I have always liked Dickerson. My first reaction is not a good one. I knew “the answer” would be someone old.
BUT, I will reserve judgment. This just might be the year.
I’m more concerned about who plays in the OF now than losing Dickerson. Does this put Chris Heisey back on the bench ? Who gets sent down ?
Walt Jocketty can not help himself can he?
I’m not sure what to say about this. Literally, I’m speechless. I hope Edmonds can help, but at this point in his career is he worth the move? All this says to me is that Baker will play him constantly, stealing time from Heisey. I do not want to see that.
Edmonds is averaging 1 strikeout every 4 AB’s. Does this sound familiar? How is this an improvement? Oh yeah he’s a veteran.
I don’t like it. Dickerson may haunt us.
Dickerson does have that tendancy to get injured, but I still don’t see a 40 yr old as being an upgrade on the 25 man roster. Along that line, where does that leave Stubbs? Does he breath a sigh of relief or does he worry about being set back to AAA? With Dickerson gone, Heisey has to be looking at this trade as a positive for his future with the Reds.
A SO is an out like any other. Edmonds hits better than Dickerson. Even old Edmonds.
Maybe I’m wrong, but don’t we already have the equivalent of Jim Edmonds(at this point in his career) on the bench in Laynce Nix? A LH bat with some pop, and solid defensively. Yeah, he’s probably an upgrade from Dickerson, but I’m afraid Baker will throw him in the lineup every night ala Patterson, Taveras. That’s the part of this that worries me.
This isn’t a bad deal. I don’t necessarily think it is a good deal either.
Dickerson is a spare part. So is Edmonds at this point, but look at the numbers…there is an argument that Edmonds provides a LOT more value this year at the plate.
Neither guy will help the Reds beyond this year.
Edmonds has put together a 2.5 WAR season so far with only 240 plate appearances. I’ll take that in exchange for an oft-injured 28 year old backup OFer.
Jason461: I am not sure about either of your points. I would rather have someone who can advance runners on base. You cannot do that with a strike out. You cannot get a sacrifice fly on a K.
I am not sure that Edmonds is a better hitter at this point than Dickerson is. In fact I doubt it. But, to be fair, I have always thought a lot of Dickerson.
Edmonds actually is hitting pretty well this year, but it’s in limited action, and still not worth giving up on a young guy like Dickerson for.
I agree Chad. Edmonds is here for the stretch run and not 2011.
The more I think about it, the more I like it. I’m very surprised to be saying that.
I know. I know. Dickerson strikes out a lot.
He also has a lot of speed. Which the Reds team really does not.
Not sure why everyone things Edmonds needs to be put on the 25 man. Or the 40 man for that matter. He’s cleared waivers to make the trade, he signed a minor league deal at the beginning of the year. let’s see if this was just a way to clear a spot on the 40 man.
I have mixed feelings. I’ve only known Edmonds as someone to be feared. Dickerson had talent, but his paychecks were always sent to him in the rehab tub. Still, I can’t believe this is a straight up deal. The Brewers got a deal.
We don’t know that Nix is out, yet. Dickerson had already been added to the 40-man (that’s how they lost Sutton) so there is no immediate need to make a move there. However, a 25-man move needs to be made.
It might be Nix.
Or they might send Stubbs to AAA.
That would give the Reds and OF of
–Gomes, Heisey, Bruce vs LHP
–Nix, Edmonds, Bruce vs RHP
If it is Nix
Nix vs RHP this year (.261/.313/.445)
Edmonds vs RHP this year (.293/.358/.500)
And that’s about the difference between the two year-in and year-out.
I hate to see Dickerson go, but we hardly saw Dickerson stay healthy enough to play. The only guy I’ve seen hurt more was Brandon Larson. I don’t think Dickerson was in the OF plans for next year, so if he can be flipped for a boost this year, I say go for it.
Edmonds is the kind of guy who could help the REDS. He’s a solid (not spectacular) fielder. He can even play 1B in a pinch. Sounds like a pretty decent pick-up for a guy who could never stay healthy long enough to help out much. Just gotta wonder who gets demoted and when?
@Chad: OT. Would you ever consider making a poll question for where Redleg Nation is located. Ohio? Indiana? KY? WV? VA? I would be really interested in that if someone had the time.
Chad,
This is probably one of the dumbest questions you’ll hear today, but do you think that Edmonds will now start over Bruce or Stubbs on a regular basis?
I also wonder who this displaces. Normally I wouldn’t mind this move, except with Dusty’s tendency to play every vet every night. I guess Nix goes away, but, IMO, Nix has more upside than a 17 year veteran (17 years, wow. I’m getting old).
Dickerson was organizational depth, Edmonds is a 2 month spare part with post season experience. I like the deal, it’s nothing game changing but it seems solid to me.
The complaining will stop once Edmonds crushes a fastball into the RF sundeck at GABP against the Cards.
I called this acquisition 2 weeks ago. Of any of the backup/role playing outfielders available, Edmonds had the best numbers. Until Nix’s recent hot streak, he was hovering around .230. Factor in Bruce’s downward trend, and this move provides good insurance from the left side of the plate.
Among you guys bemoaning losing Dickerson to the Brewers, can you really say you’ll fear facing him? Didn’t think so.
Dickerson is a spare part. Thanks for saying it Chad. I know most of us have been somewhat excited to see Dickerson back, but only relative to what we were getting out of the rest of the outfield right now. At this point, I’d say Jockety has been more right than wrong, so let’s see how this rolls. Go Reds! Beat the Cards!
At this point in his career, Dickerson is a nice 4th or 5th OF. Granted, on this team he could start, but he is not a long term answer at this point in time, so why not make the move? You know that you’re getting more offensive production from Edmonds than what we have been getting recently and more production than Dickerson historically. This team has been dying for a better bat in the OF. It got that today.
Dickerson isn’t a young guy anymore. His upside is as a 4th OF, and he wasn’t going to help the Reds this year. I’d rather have the guy who is going to help this year, in that scenario.
Of course, With Edmonds being able to play first, that could be big.
Preach, that’s what worries me to. Normally this move wouldn’t worry me one bit, I’d actually like it a lot in all likelihood. It’s the fact that the onus is now put on Baker how often to play him that scares me.
“The complaining will stop once Edmonds crushes a fastball into the RF sundeck at GABP against the Cards”
Those are the good vibes we like!
Yeah, yeah Matt WI. The fact the Walt Jocketty put this together gives some comfort. He’s not perfect (who is) but you’re right. In Walt we trust.
A six-time gold glove winner is nice to have around. He could be a positive influence on the younger guys for the remainder of the season, including whomever is called up come September. Heck, he even has 2 SB this year!
I doubt they go with 6 outfielders for long, but it could be Francisco that gets sent down for the Cardinal series to make room for Edmonds…
“Edmonds has put together a 2.5 WAR season so far with only 240 plate appearances. I’ll take that in exchange for an oft-injured 28 year old backup OFer.”
+1
Dickerson always seemed like a good guy, but he’s only a decent player who can’t stay out of the trainer’s room and isn’t young. I’ve hated Edmonds forever, but he’s shown he can be a quality role player and has postseason experience.
We’ll never miss Dickerson, and Edmonds could help us down the stretch. Sounds like a good deal to me.
all I can say is WOW!
“At this point, I’d say Jockety has been more right than wrong”
Hmmmm, got any odds on that?
Look at it as more of a move for 2012. The influence he will have on Bruce and Stubbs. Rolen and Cabrera’s influence has been a MUCH bigger factor than their play. But can you really have three guys on the team who are my age. Damn. It will look down right geriactric.
I’d be stunned if Nix is gone.
This also *hopefully* means that we won’t be subjected to Cairo playing 1B and hitting 3rd when Votto needs a day off.
We sure love our ex-Cards, don’t we?
Ooops, I’m not saying Edmonds will be here in 2012. But his impact may still be here. Can’t have too many professionals on this team. That has always been the problem. Kids playing with Griffey and Dunn. Now we have kids playing with Rolen, Cabrera, and Edmonds. I’ll take that any time.
“We sure love our ex-Cards, don’t we?” – So far there’s been nothing wrong with that.
@ TC
“Now we have kids playing with Rolen, Cabrera, and Edmonds. I’ll take that any time.”
Agreed. This might just be the difference in getting JB turned around. If 7 weeks of Edmonds can help him I’d given up 3 CDs for him!
Edmonds is 40. This is strictly a two-month rental. Old players, by definition, are injury prone. At least he didn’t cost much.
I don’t agree that Dickerson couldn’t have helped the Reds this year. He’s healthy now and when he’s been healthy he’s been pretty good. He’s not young, but he is athletic.
Edmonds, a half-decade ago, was a great CF, but now there is no question that Dickerson is far better defensively in CF.
My first reaction to this trade was pretty negative. But I don’t think it’s terrible. Edmonds can help the Reds, but I also think Dickerson could have, too.
Of course, any personnel decision for the Reds that depends on Dusty Baker doing the right thing with playing time for its wisdom is pretty much on thin ice.
Don’t be surprised if Baker plays Edmonds all the time until he gets hurt. Then we’ll be right back where we are today, except without Chris Dickerson.
Imagine the defense with an OF combo of Edmonds/Stubbs/Heisey/Bruce. We will probably never see this lineup, but I’m excited with the possibility that Dusty stumbles upon it…
Phillips-Heisey-Votto-Rolen-Edmonds-Hanigan-Bruce-Janish
I think the big question is just where do you play Edmonds? Where in the outfield does he fit best? At his age, you would have to think LF or RF instead of CF.
“The influence he will have on Bruce and Stubbs. Rolen and Cabrera’s influence has been a MUCH bigger factor than their play. ”
Unless I’m missing something, they didn’t bring in Edmonds, Rolen, or Cabrera to be a coach.
I called the arrival of Mr. Edmonds last week. You could look it up.
He should help so I think. I am surprised that it took a AAAA outfielder to get him. Methinks the waiver wire was to be the conduit for the Rojos’ acquisiton.
A lot of wags here were unhappy when supposed long-in-the-tooth Scott Rolen was acquired even though the memories of the same pundits probably will be a little short at this time. I think Edmond’s constribution will be something along that line albeit on a smaller scale.
Phillips-Heisey-Votto-Rolen-Edmonds-Hanigan-Bruce-Janish
I’d love that.
wonder where genius Dusty is going to bat Edmonds?
The bottom line is that you don’t give away someone like Dickerson to make this move, you trade C-grade prospects. It’s not that acquiring Edmonds or trading Dickerson are bad moves on their own terms, but trading Dickerson for Edmonds is the epitome of selling low on a guy.
Chris Dickerson provided a lot to this current Reds team. He got hurt and opened the door for Heisey.
Heisey, Stubbs, Bruce, Gomes (will probably bring back) and maybe another veteran for next year. I don’t see were Dickerson would have fit next year unless you count the AAA roster.
If the past five years are any guide, Edmonds is going to hit around .250-.260, hit a few home runs and walk a decent number of times.
I don’t think those numbers were out of the question for Chris Dickerson. And he might have done better.
Edmonds is 40 years old and hasn’t won a Gold Glove since 2005, so I don’t think we should romanticize his defense. Chris Dickerson was an excellent, top-tier defensive center fielder.
Edmonds did not play MLB at all in 2009.
“Phillips-Heisey-Votto-Rolen-Edmonds-Hanigan-Bruce-Janish”
That is a really nice looking lineup, I’d love to see what it could produce.
If Dickerson was either 24 and healthy or 22 and oft-injured, I’d care about this. As far as I’m concerned, we picked up 2 months of Edmonds for an offseason non-tender candidate. Dickerson became expendable not only with the play of Heisey and Stubbs, but with the development of Dave Sappelt.
@Steve, I’d agree with you if I thought for one moment that Edmonds would play a mintue in CF, but he won’t, so it doesn’t matter what his CF play is like…much like it doesn’t matter with Dickerson, as Heisey is going to see the bulk of the time in CF. Edmonds will split LF with Gomes, which is fine, since Gomes can’t hit RH pitching at all this year (barring his hot May), and we learned early last year that Dickerson has questions playing LF.
This is less about Dickerson and more about Heisey and Sappelt, methinks.
“Unless I’m missing something, they didn’t bring in Edmonds, Rolen, or Cabrera to be a coach.”
Actually, I heard that referenced many, many times by management when both Rolen and Cabrera were signed. Teaching is coaching. Leading by example (i.e.: work ethic) is much effective when it is demonstrated, rather than merely preached about. Trust me, I’m almost a doctor (of ministry).
I want Votto to walk into the clubhouse tonight and say: “I hate the Cardinals. I hate everything about the Cardinals. I hate new Cardinals, I hate current Cardinals. I hate old Cardinals.”
Then he looks around and sees Rolen, Edmonds, Isringhausen, Springer, Jocketty,…
After the silence ends he says: “Let’s kick their ass!” and everyone runs out of the tunnel.
OK, that may not work well in the sport of baseball!
Serious question, what is Edmonds supposed to help Bruce with that, ya know, a hitting coach can’t?
“Leading by example (i.e.: work ethic) is much effective when it is demonstrated, rather than merely preached about.”
Well, that only really works if the player produces. Rolen is great, because he hits a ton and plays good defense. Cabrera not so much, because he’s terrible.
@ Brien Jackson
You don’t think Rolen has helped the clubhouse and had an impact on the young players he’s been around? You don’t think Edmonds can teach Bruce, Stubbs, and Heisey a few things about playing the outfield or how to approach hitting? Or how to prepare for games in a playoff run or even in the postseason? I was one of the few guys who gushed, at the time, over signing Rolen and I think WJ has made a good pickup. Time will tell.
I love my guy Gomes, but if you have to question who you’d put in left field between him and Edmonds, something is wrong with you.
Chris, that post was pure win.
@ Chris ……. that was funny
Lineups out. Edmonds in CF hitting 5th. Damn.
“You don’t think Rolen has helped the clubhouse and had an impact on the young players he’s been around?”
Sure, but I don’t think it’s nearly as important as his 142 OPS+.
“You don’t think Edmonds can teach Bruce, Stubbs, and Heisey a few things about playing the outfield or how to approach hitting?”
Based on what? And even if he can, it doesn’t change the point that Jocketty vastly overpaid to get him.
I hate this move, mostly because I think we could have/should have gotten more for Dickerson than an old, 2-month rental. I love Jim Edmonds for all the highlights he has provided in the past, but I’m thinking he’s done after this year and we could have used Dickerson in a package to get us an upgrade at SS or somewhere else.
My $0.02
“I love my guy Gomes, but if you have to question who you’d put in left field between him and Edmonds, something is wrong with you.”
In that light, and the fact that Edmonds can back up Joey at first, this looks like a win at best and a ‘meh’ at worst.
Everyone here is severely overvaluing Chris Dickerson.
I agree with the first sentance of this story. It sounded great until I realized this is not 10 years ago.
But it is obvious Edmonds is not going to be around past October. Essentially this clears up a roster space for November. Maybe Edmonds will land in a coaching job (replacing Jacoby, for instance).
Dickerson, I never saw as a long-term fixture. He’s a 4th outfielder at best—-a Sam Mejias type: nice to have around, does good work, easily replaced, has a great future as a coach
Or here, look at it another way:
Everyone knew the Reds would have liked to add an outfielder…and the Cardinals didn’t even claim Edmonds to keep the Reds from getting him.
WJ improved the overall outfield situation with a proven winner without trading important parts of the REDS future. Nobody knows what next year may hold. The team has a chance to make the playoffs this year and need to do all they can to win. CD has been here several years and has proven not to be a difference maker.
Edmonds is in the starting lineup tonight.
I’m ok with the trade. I think you have to weigh each (Dickerson and Edmonds) on this year only because I dont think either were/are in the Reds plans for next year. Which of the two do you prefer to have on the team for the next 2 months? I think I prefer Edmonds (with the caveat that Dusty doesnt overuse him). One thing this makes me wonder about though is if they expect Cabrera to be out a while. That might be a reason why they felt like they needed more “veteran leadership”.
“Everyone here is severely overvaluing Chris Dickerson.”
I’d say most people are undervaluing the worth of a 4th outfielder/over estimating how much it should cost to acquire a 40 year old rental in August.
Tonights lineup http://ramsey.mlblogs.com/archives/2010/08/tonights-reds-lineup-40.html
Everyone knows this is only a short term ancilliary type of move, otherwise I doubt the Brewers would have traded inside the division. Parts.
Hate this move! And now he’s starting in front of Stubbs….
Maybe we should just sign Dusty to an extension… if you’re gonna throw away the future, go BIG!
Phillips, Nix, Votto, Rolen, Edmonds, Bruce, Hernandez, Janish. What do you guys think?
I just don’t see what SS or other upgrade you’re going to get in a package deal with Chris Dickerson. He has even put up good starting numbers and he is injury prone. He is a backup OF that was traded for an older starting OF. It sounds like a good trade for both teams.
At first blush, I didn’t love the thought of adding Edmonds, because I’ve never liked him. Not that I didn’t appreciate his talent, but he just rubbed me the wrong way. That being said, he helps us more this year than Dickerson can. He adds another guy on the bench that can take one deep, and his defense has been very good this year in limited time at all 3 OF positions according to UZR/150. Those saying we could have had him in spring training are probably right, but I don’t think anyone sees Dickerson in the plans for the future and the Reds were probably getting tired of all the injuries.
sorry, it should say, “He has never put up good starting numbers…”
@U2-Guy
You’re joking right? Why would we start the Stubbs against Carpenter?
So who went down? Nix is starting so it isn’t him. How many more freakin’ LH hitting outfielders do we need?
So how about Stan Musial? He’s an ex-Cardinal and he’s only 70-years-old.
I don’t HATE the line up…
I’d rather see Hanigan starting. and I’m not sure about Nix batting 2nd.
I’m still nervous to see who gets sent down, since Nix obviously isn’t going anywhere.
@jdarts
I’d flip Nix and Edmonds, or Nix and Bruce.
My guess is Francisco goes down, though that leaves the REDS with too few infielders.
“I’d say most people are undervaluing the worth of a 4th outfielder/over estimating how much it should cost to acquire a 40 year old rental in August.”
We have a 4th outfielder, his name is Chris Heisey.
Dickerson wouldn’t have even been the first choice off the bench for a left handed pinch hitter. His name would have been Nix/Francisco.
@ RFDRED
My thoughts exactly – I dont mind the lineup but I prefer Hanigan
I think the good news is that Edmonds is one of the RARE, RARE players who plays a defensive position who is old yet his defense has not declined that much. He is NOT another Cabrera….or for that matter even Rolen. He still plays very good defense.
“Phillips-Heisey-Votto-Rolen-Edmonds-Hanigan-Bruce-Janish”
I like this. I’d change it vs lefties probably batting Edmonds 2nd
but we know….when Cabrera’s back he’ll bat 2nd….
All this makes this game even more intriguing, if that was possible. But if the game isn’t sold out tonight by the time they announce the numbers in the 7th, I’ll eat my favorite Reds hat.
I will say, I am concerned with Jocketty’s nepotismal streak lately. Springer and Isringhaussen were either never really good or gravely overrated and are both currently washed up. Edmonds is clearly over the hill, but at least he stayed up at the top of the hill for a good long time.
But thinking back on some of the early roster moves Wayne Krivsky made, he kind of waged a campaign to rid the team of Dan O’Brien’s acquisitions (Josh Hancock, etc.) and brought in reletively few of his own cronies (Juan Castro, who was at least already familiar with some of the Reds roster). So is Jocketty making the Reds take a step backwards? Are they going to fall into a trap of their GM creating his own little fifedom with a hive mentality?
Worse yet, is there a chance Tony LaRussa is in the future of the Reds management picture? LaRussa IS a great manager, of course. But his personality is becoming more repellent over the years. And I do not want to consider the possibility of having McGwire in a Reds uniform. That would be almost as dispicable as Kevin Mitchell or, worse Marcus “Jim Bowden’s favorite sex offender” Moore.
Are there two different Chris Dickersons?? Someone called him a top-tier defensive outfielder? Do you mean the same guy who couldn’t take a proper line on a fly ball? They same guy who spends large chunks of time on the DL? Dickerson had no future on this team…
It would have to be Fransisco who went to AAA.
“We have a 4th outfielder, his name is Chris Heisey. ”
Well, unless you plan on Edmonds being an everyday player for the next couple of years, this makes Heisey your 3rd outfielder.
Lance Nix is batting second, with a career OBP of .281 and a lifetime record of 2 for 12 against Carpenter.
RAMON HERNANDEZ is catching, not Ryan Hanigan. This is the second time through the rotation that Hernandez has caught Leake, which means he plays 3 of 5 days. Ryan Hanigan, one of our best hitters, is only playing 2 of 5 games. We need to make a bigger deal of this.
Hernandez is a smooth 4 for 28 against Carpenter.
Natural
I’m not saying that Stubbs is anywhere near the level of player of those to follow, but I think managers (especially Dusty Faker… like what I did there?) tinker with their lineups too much.
You don’t see A-Rod, Jeter, Votto, etc. come out of the game just cuz the guy throwing the ball towards home happens to throw from the same side of the plate that you stand on.
If you play baseball you should be able to hit either righties or lefties…. Plus Carpenter will make Edmonds look just as dumb as 99% of the other MLBers… doesn’t matter which side of the plate they stand on.
Since May 7th, Edmonds is batting .307/.356/.540 against all pitching and is hitting lefties even slightly better.
While I’d have to disagree that CD had NO future on this team, he wasn’t going to be a starter. At best he was going to be a role player. Today, WJ signaled that he is committed to Stubbs and Heisey fighting it out for the starting CF job in 2011.
Python Curtus: Springer and Izzy were all about trying taking low risk/high reward moves for some extra help in the bullpen. Jocketty and just about everyone else have said that the trade market for relievers was unusually tough and expensive.
How exactly have Izzy or Springer hurt this team or our playoff chances? What have they done to upset you?
“How exactly have Izzy or Springer hurt this team or our playoff chances? What have they done to upset you?”
Well, Springer essentially cost the team Drew Sutton.
@CaptainTonyKW: How exactly have Izzy or Springer hurt this team or our playoff chances? What have they done to upset you?
Well, for starters, Springer, a 41-year old pitcher got hurt in his second game. He took up a roster spot of a better pitcher. He also forced us to give away Drew Stubbs on the 40-man roster.
These moves to take on the Cardinals Hall of Fame are not costless.
Our 41-year old pitcher got hurt. Our 36-year old shortstop got hurt. Our 35-year old third baseman plays 5 games a week. Our #1 back-up at every single infield position is 36 years old. Now we sign a 40-year old who is going to play center field – who didn’t even play in MLB in 2009.
Was Drew Sutton any good? I remember the name, but don’t have any idea on his talent level.
I’d bat Edmonds (higher OBP 2nd) instead of Nix, otherwise, can’t argue much about the order of the 8.
I agree with others that I would have rather see Hanigan behind the plate tonight for both offensive and defensive purposes.
“Well, Springer essentially cost the team Drew Sutton”
Jesus dude, guys like Sutton/Dickerson are a dime a dozen. The better argument would be that Sutton cost the team Jeff Keppinger.
@ U-2-Guy: he was a switch-hitting utility player.
so he had some value.
The Milwaukee Brewers must be laughing about this trade tonight. It’s not that I believe Chris Dickerson is an all-star. It’s that they got something that decent for Jim Edmonds.
Edmonds is going to retire in two months. The Brewers are out of the chase this year. Edmonds has zero value to them this year. Yet they were able to trade for a player who might be a #3 or #4 OF for a few years.
Baker has never really seemed to like Dickerson, so combining that with Jockety’s desire to put the band back together, and you make a lopsided trade.
Edmonds may help the Reds. Chris Dickerson might have helped the Reds.
@Greg: I’d bat Edmonds (higher OBP 2nd) instead of Nix
I agree with this. Nix has ZERO qualities for a good #2 hitter, either in the modern world view or Baker’s.
I’m surprised Baker didn’t think of it since Edmonds is a center fielder. And we know where that position normally hits.
The problem was WJ should’ve gone ahead and traded Sutton instead of just letting him go. That having been said, who know what Springer and Izzy might do to help the REDS in September. You just can’t have too many arms.
This really is an excellent defense that we are running out there tonight, and it could be even better by changing catchers. I like it.
Doesn’t really matter too much, but I think it can only help. I especially like what it seems to be saying what the Reds think of Heisey. I may be wrong, but I don’t see Dickerson being anything more than a fourth outfielder on a good team and I know Edmonds can be that now. The more guys with experience winning in the clubhouse the better.
“Jesus dude, guys like Sutton/Dickerson are a dime a dozen”
Really? How many cost controlled utility players that play 6 positions pretty well and put up OBP’s around .370 in the minors are there floating around these days?
Hey, why isn’t the CF leading off and the SS batting second??!!???
I’m confused. Somebody hold me…….
@Steve
Exactly! There’s nothing wrong with trading Chris Dickerson, and there’s nothing wrong with acquiring Jim Edmonds. The problem is that trading Dickerson for Edmonds is vastly overpaying.
@Preach: This really is an excellent defense that we are running out there tonight
Not because of Edmonds. He’s nowhere near as good of an OF as Stubbs or Heisey now. Edmonds is 40 years old, playing CF. His last Gold Glove was 2005.
Our best OF defense, by far, would be Hesiey in LF, Stubbs in CF and Bruce in RF. We’re missing two of those three tonight.
I’m not against playing Edmonds tonight, even in CF. But we can’t pretend that Edmonds is the same guy that he was five years ago.
@ Brien Jackson – That’s just it, “…in the minors are there floating around these days…”. Sutton has yet to prove he deserves to be in the big show. Edmonds has been there done that. He can help the parent club now. The REDS didn’t give up Sutton for Edmonds. They gave up a guy who in his entire MLB career has his the same number of home runs Edmonds has this year. CD can’t play LF or RF. Remember the game at Wrigley last year? It’s overall a good move for this year and doesn’t hurt the team going forward.
How much i hate to say this, at this point in the season you really can’t question any moves either Walt or Dusty has done. I mean really, if everyone on this site was surveyed back on Opening day, and the question was:
Come August 1, are the Reds going to be closer to 20 games over .500 or around .500 or below .500, i doubt many would have picked option 1. I am willing to give them the benefit of the question on this move.
Contrary to popular belief, it was not completely predictable that Springer would land on the DL. He was a very durable reliever and he has NEVER had this sort of injury in his career.
People like Sutton are always available…
VETERAN LEADERSHIP! CLUBHOUSE PRESENCE!
With OC out the lineup, we’ve OBVIOUSLY been struggling.
8-2 since OC got hurt is just not gonna cut it
Is Ryan Hanigan not one of the Reds best hitters this year? And isn’t he light years better than Hernandez behind the plate?
I don’t understand why we are playing Hernandez 3/5 games and Hanigan 2/5.
Fransico should be the one to go down… Edmonds is Now the backup firstbaseman and Cairo is back to third.. At first I was mad with this trade and then I thought it over and Dickerson was blocked.. He had no spot in the reds outfield and I don’t think they had any faith left in him after the wrist injury… Cutting ties maybe best for both sides
No, they gave up Sutton, a cheap, potentially useful major league fill in when needed, for Russ Springer, a mediocre, old, reliever who’s hurt at the moment.
“At first I was mad with this trade and then I thought it over and Dickerson was blocked….”
So use him for flexibility or package him in a deal for a better player in the off-season, don’t give up a useful big league player for a 40 year old rental.
will Edmonds be on the roster today? Or tomorrow?
I do like the fact that Edmonds can play 1B, although help us if Votto is out for any number of the remaining games.
My initial thought was WTF. Mostly, it was a gut reaction, as I was in the car when I heard it over WSSP 1250 in Milwaukee. I then looked at Edmonds’ numbers: .286/.350/.493, 9.2 runs above replacement on offense, 7.0 on defense. Sounds like a decent deal to me. I hate to see Dickerson go, but this is a pretty good deal for the short term.
@mike: he is on the roster today and starting tonight in CF
TONIGHT’S STARTING LINE-UP BROUGHT TO YOU BY GERITOL:
Phillips 2B
Nix LF
Votto 1B
Rolen 3B
Jim Edmonds CF
Bruce RF
Hernandez C
Janish SS
Mike Leake P
@mike: will Edmonds be on the roster today? Or tomorrow?
Batting 5th and playing CF tonight.
“People like Sutton are always available…”
Like who?
“Everyone here is severely overvaluing Chris Dickerson.”
We shall see. Something tells me not.
@ Brien Jackson
“No, they gave up Sutton, a cheap, potentially useful major league fill in when needed, for Russ Springer…”
I agree. I would’ve given up on Hererra (who I’m not crazy about) or Owings instead of Sutton. Overall, the Springer and Izzy signings are cheap gambles, but I wouldn’t have traded Sutton for either one of them.
Crazy to have Nix batting second. Otherwise, not a bad lineup. I like the lefty heavy lineup with Edmonds in CF though.
FWIW, I really don’t understand the impulse not to question Jocketty. I mean, based on what? The Rolen deal? That was fine (although I think it probably had more to do with Riccardi than anything else), but beyond that what particularly good moves has he made? I see a lot of open questions and very questionable decisions personally.
@hoosierdad
I would have DFA’d Nix, but Jocketty isn’t even sending him down for Edmonds.
@ Y-City Jim – lmao! Geritol
I just received this tweet, take it for what it’s worth:
Chris Dickerson first learned he might be coming to Milwaukee in text message from Ryan Braun.
Brien, I’m not trying to start a debate about the overall value of Chris Dickerson or anything. Having said that, I think you may be overvaluing him just a little. Dickerson’s 28, injury prone, and his minor league numbers never really translated in his short stints with the Reds. I like the guy, don’t get me wrong. I’m just not gonna lose any sleep over losing him. I don’t think the Reds overpaid at all either. Really, what would you expect to get in return for the guy? Somebody else said “I bet Brewer fans are celebrating”. Really? Just because Dickerson has years left, that doesn’t guarantee they’ll be productive years.
The lefty heavy line-up won’t do much. Carpenter is equally as tough on LH bats as RH bats.
Fay just tweeted that Stubbs is working outside practicing bunting, which means he probably wasn’t the one sent down. Likely Francisco.
Good to hear Stubbs is practicing bunting.
@jdarts
Dickerson is never going to light the world on fire, but think of it this way; without looking, tell me the name of the player the Yankees sent to Cincinnati for Jerry Hairston last year. That’s the sort of guy you trade to make a move like this.
Hell, if they were willing to give up a guy on the 40 man roster to get Edmonds, why not just claim him off of waivers?
I think he practices every day. Seriously.
Travis Wood was sent down. WTF?
Questioning Jocketty is fine…
Masset for Griffey was pretty darn good. (I know you’ll probably use this to bolster you’re argument but Dickerson is 28/29 and Masset is a stud whereas Dickerson is a 4th OF at best.
Also check out this old RedLeg Nation link…shows how well us fans predict this type of issue:
http://redlegnation.com/2009/07/25/what-has-walt-jocketty-done/
jdarts: Travis Wood was sent down. WTF?
That’s impossible.
Brien, A catcher whose name I can’t remember for the life of me. Point taken.
WTF? Wood?
“Chris Dickerson first learned he might be coming to Milwaukee in text message from Ryan Braun.”
Does the MLBPA have a phone directory of everyone’s cell phone numbers? How would Ryan Braun have Dickerson’s cell number?
If Travis Wood is REALLY the person sent down, I guess that means Homer Bailey is going to get that start. The Reds don’t want to be short-handed in the Cardinals series on the infield, so they are keeping Francisco around.
Wood sent down to make room for Edmonds, not Francisco as most would have expected. I hope that move is only temporary.
Who says they aren’t just going to bring Wood back up when it’s his turn to start? It’s quite possible they want a deep bench for the Cardinals series.
Fay says Francisco is packing up
John Fay just tweeted that Francisco is packing his stuff to be sent down as well. Now I’m confused.
Why would they send Wood down? That is completely insane.
Sending Travis Wood down means he has to miss one start, because he has to stay there at least 10 days.
I think you’ll see Homer be called up and Francisco or Stubbs sent down then.
The reason I include Stubbs in that is I just can’t see the Reds keeping six outfielders while having Miguel Cairo as their only backup at 3B, 2B and SS, which would be the case if Francisco is sent down.
How often can you make moves like this one with Wood?
Sending down TW isn’t such a bad move. Keeps you an extra infielder and the pitcher you lose wasn’t going to pitch in this series anyways. HB must be coming up for TW’s next start.
It has to be Francisco. That is the only one that makes sense.
@jdarts
Exactly. Again, I’m not saying that they shouldn’t have traded Dickerson, or that they shouldn’t have traded for Edmonds, on their own terms, I’m just saying that trading Dickerson for Edmonds is paying WAY above market value.
If both Francisco and Wood are being sent down, surely that means they are calling up another infielder.
I guess it’s possible that Baker, in full paranoia mode about his bullpen, might want another arm up instead, like Burton.
“John Fay just tweeted that Francisco is packing his stuff to be sent down as well. Now I’m confused.”
Are we adding someone else?
I can’t decide if I like this or not. My initial reaction is not, but upon further review I will wait and see. If Jockety was interested in Edmonds, why didn’t he grab him last year when Edmonds was begging him for a job or in the offseason when he was available?
I think we are looking at Bailey’s return and he will go into Woods spot.
@RiverCity Redleg: If Jockety was interested in Edmonds, why didn’t he grab him last year when Edmonds was begging him for a job or in the offseason when he was available?
This way, Edmonds had to prove he could still play MLB on the Brewers risk. Edmonds sat out all of 2009 and had been very mediocre in 2008.
So, anybody know if it’s JF or TW or both????? Maybe Valiaka coming up to have an extra infielder???
@The Natural, yeah that’s what it is I’m sure.
Could aroldis chapman be on the way?
The Wood thing is strange…probably just a short term thing and shows how much the Reds management is committed to winning this series.
Could aroldis chapman be on the way? Francisco and wood down for Edmonds and chapman?
Hmm.
Mark Sheldon has this to say about Edmonds’ health:
Edmonds wasn’t able to play much during the last Reds-Brewers series because of a sore Achilles tendon. It’s nagged him much of the summer. A 40-year-old center fielder with a bad wheel is certainly a concern. Obviously, he can still hit but running is an issue.
This sounds bad. No way this guy should be playing center field, and probably not any outfield position.
Sheldon says Wood going down. I guess I can buy the argument about only needing four starters over the next week and a half.
“This way, Edmonds had to prove he could still play MLB on the Brewers risk. Edmonds sat out all of 2009 and had been very mediocre in 2008.”
He paid Orlando Cabrera.
@jnschel – Chapman has pitched alot lately and got hammered last night. Would be surprised to see him called up right now. Probably won’t see him until the rosters are expanded, but who knows these days!
@thenatural
They can’t recall whoever they send down for 10 days. So if Wood goes down, he misses at least one start.
@Brien Jackson: He paid Orlando Cabrera.
Don’t remind me…
BTW, the Reds are 4-1 in the post-OC era. The one-loss being 7-6 on the six unearned runs in the second inning vs. the Pirates.
The Reds “won” their case with MLB and the terrible scoring decision by the Pirates scorer was changed back from a hit to an error on Scott Rolen. That lowered Mike Leake’s ERA by .4 points.
Leake’s ERA goes from 3.86 to 3.43 with the scoring change.
Since we’re semi debating Jocketty here, I’d also note that Cabrera is the guy he invested the payroll savings of Rolen’s extension in.
Good scoring change. Only makes sense.
Brien:
For someone in the system right now: Chris Valaika who is Drew Sutton with actual upside. In seasons past it was Jerry Hariston, Keppinger, Freel, etc. This year it is Cairo. Next year who knows..but Sutton was not a huge loss.
I would guess wood goes down now, Bailey gets his next start, and Wood comes back up for Leake’s next start after tomorrow, (should be about ten days with the off days). That will help limit Leake as they have been doing. As far as Francisco going down, it seems like they must be bringing up a more versatile infielder, they have acquired someone else, or BP may need more time off (with his injury) so they are bringing up a 2nd baseman. JMHO
@hoosierdad- he had actually thrown more recently than normal and his numbers up to last night were astounding… Even got his own recognition on baseball tonight… It would have made sense if juan was sent down to bring him up for an extra arm in the pen… And when it came time for a starter bray could have been shipped out… If he sticks around in louisville until rosters expand he cannot be on the playoff roster right?
If this is true, and I have no reason to doubt it since it’s from Mark Sheldon, then the Reds overpaid by a huge amount. Edmonds not only was worth nothing to the Brewers because they are done for the year and he’s retiring, but he’s also damaged goods. At best now I see him as a good LH pinch hitter. I hope he doesn’t blow out his Achilles playing CF tonight.
Edmonds wasn’t able to play much during the last Reds-Brewers series because of a sore Achilles tendon. It’s nagged him much of the summer. A 40-year-old center fielder with a bad wheel is certainly a concern. Obviously, he can still hit but running is an issue.
Fay now tweeting that Francisco was not optioned.
The reason I don’t buy the “Wood was sent down because of the off days and he’s the fifth guy” is that I don’t think he’s the fifth guy and I don’t think he’s the one that needs the innings off. Leake is.
I still predict that Homer will fill in Wood’s spot the next time through. If they are going to skip anyone it would be Leake. The idea that someone mentioned about Wood taking Leake’s start in 10 days makes sense to me.
Leake pitches this game, and his next turn, then Wood comes back to take his following start.
@jnschel – Exactly why they shouldn’t bring him up just for this series. He’s thrown enough recently that he shouldn’t pitch tonight. Also, probably not the best idea to put him in such a pressure cooker tonight. If they need him, why not bring him up after the series and get his feet wet before the REDS go into St. Louis in early Sept. And yeah, he has to come up prior to the 1st to be post-season eligible.
Well if you want him to help in the postseason why not let him get a taste of what it would be like in this series.. These games don’t as much as a postseason game so he can get his feet wet in meaninful situation but not as serious as the postseason… Louisville seems to be using him as a closer recently so he must be able to handle the pressure somewhat
Not having thrown a single pitch in the majors, do you really want him to face the CARDS? Why not let him sit out this series and bring him up in the next week or so. Having said that, which reliever do you send down? My guess would be Fisher or Bray.
So is this what we’re thinking for the next two weeks?
MON 8/9 (Cards) Leake
TUE 8/10 (Cards) Cueto
WED 8/11 (Cards) Arroyo
THU 8/12 OFF
FRI 8/13 (Marlins) Volquez
SAT 8/14 (Marlins) Bailey
SUN 8/15 (Marlins) Cueto
MON 8/16 OFF
TUE 8/17 (D-backs) Arroyo
WED 8/18 (D-backs) Volquez
THU 8/19 (D-backs) Bailey
FRI 8/20 (Dodgers) Cueto
SAT 8/21 (Dodgers) Wood
SUN 8/22 (Dodgers) Arroyo
@renbutler: Yeah, looks pretty good. If Bailey can step up like he did the end of last year I feel REALLY good about the REDS chances. But it is time to find out what he’s got in him.
@Steve: while I might agree and I don’t know how many pitches Wood threw in the minors before getting called up Wood has 3 more total starts than Leake at this point this season. Wood has 23 starts between the minors/majors and Leake has 20 starts
speaking of this, any news on Harang starting rehab?
Harang and Bailey are going to be very important so we can skip Wood/Leake starts at the end of the season
@renbutler: I’d say that sounds about right. I would be very disappointed if they’re sendind Wood down indefinitely.
@CP: As opposed to 42 y/o relievers who’ve been out of baseball since the Bush administration. THOSE are scarce resources worth sacrificing for — real upside.
I like the Edmonds deal as I think it makes the Reds slightly better this year.
However, there is no justification, especially in retrospect (Nix is just superfluous now), for giving away Sutton for free. Just DFA Nix to open that roster spot.
I just said the same thing on Twitter. The 2 moves are not in sync.
I absolutely despise Jim Edmonds (as a public persona – I don’t know the guy). I have since he was on the Angels. He’s literally my least favorite ballplayer of the last 20 years. So I’m utterly incapable of analyzing this trade objectively.
Feels like we gave up a useful asset for a washed-up, injury-prone guy who can’t play the field.
Trade justification:
http://redlegnation.com/2009/08/02/scott-rolen-trade-roundup/
@Chris Garber: I despise Edmonds as well but that’s never colored my opinion of how good of a player he’s been. Same goes for Rolen/Phillips. I might not like them as people or their general attitude but that is separate from their skills on the field.
Sort of the opposite with someone like Gomes. I love the guy and love his attitude. But that doesn’t make him a better player. He’s got serious limitations as a player but I like many others on this list have a man crush on him.
for kicks….compare 3 players production on the field
Edmonds, Cameron and Jr
WAR
78.4 Jr (21 years now retired)
68.4 Edmonds (17 years, still playing at an OK level)
(skip A Jones, Beltran and Damon)
47.4 Cameron (15 years, starting to decline)
Edmonds, like his new teammates Votto and Rolen are on their way to the HOF
still doesn’t mean I like Edmonds or Rolen
@mike:
One more fascinating thing about Edmonds career and where he sits
Only 13 players in the history of baseball have more WAR and are NOT in the HOF
Active: ARod, Pujols, Chipper, Jeter and Thome
Retired: Bonds, Bagwell, Thomas, Dahlen, Rose, Whitaker, Jr and Larkin
DO NOT DFA Nix! losing Sutton is one thing. Nix is something altogether different.
I like it….people complained when Walt made the Rolen deal last season…and we all now how that has turned out…I WALT I TRUST !!!!
@Glenn: why not DFA Nix?
Dickerson is a 28 year old 4th OFer type. Those kinds of players are easy to find. Jocketty is especially good at it- Ludwick, John Rodriguez, Chris Duncan, Skip Schumaker, etc and usually finds a way to make it work at least short term and sometimes they turn into productive starters ala Ludwick. AND doesn’t pick up players like Corey Patterson
@LVW: Dickerson is a starting CF but maybe a 5th OFer if he’s playing the corner positions. He plays superb defense in CF and hits well enough for that weak hitting position but RF/LF are for mashers, which he is not. I also really get the feeling that Heisey made Dickerson expendable because he can do what Dickerson can and probably more. On the flip side there has been all this talk of Dickerson but what about the fact that Heisey is probably going back to the bench in favor of an ancient CF and a 4th OF in Gomes
Definitely a rental as Edmunds announced his retirement at the end of the season back in June.
The thing about Walt picking up all the ex-Cards. It is a step up from acquiring the ex-Stupid Cubs as has been the case in past years.
So much for whoever said Edmunds wasn’t going to play CF…
I hated the move at first thought, but if they can catch lightning in a bottle for two months, it could work out. I just hate it is inter-divisional, and that Dickerson was one of the few guys with on base skills. Of course he is also the worst baserunner I have ever seen.
@Steve: “The reason I don’t buy the “Wood was sent down because of the off days and he’s the fifth guy” is that I don’t think he’s the fifth guy and I don’t think he’s the one that needs the innings off.”
I agree but Dusty’s statement to Fay was that it had already been decided (before the Edmonds trade) that Wood would miss a start.
WJ says he’ll definitely only miss one start.
My main concern, and that of many others, is that Dusty will play Edmonds every day. According to what Dusty said to Fay today, he won’t.
We’ll have to see.
The more I think about it, the more I like it. I’m very surprised to be saying that.
————————————-
the trade makes sense to me. Dickerson is not fundamentally sound, and as fast as he is, he always seemed confused on the bases to me and had trouble fielding the corner outfield spots.
As a prospect, his claim to fame was a good one, and that was for his outfield arm…but it’s something I remember him for in the majors. His OBP was always good, but he and Stubbs are quite similar players, but Stubbs is younger, has more power, and runs the bases better. I’m not convinced either one of them take good routes to the ball as of yet in CF.
For Edmonds…this is a typical contender move and not a bad choice. he’s useful, old or not. I don’t think Heisey will outplay Edmonds even for the remainder of this year. I like Heisey, and I like the story of him making it, but he’s unlikely to be a long term solution in CF for a contending team.
As for sending Wood down….should’ve sent down Fisher and moved Leake to the bullpen.
And Dusty will play Edmonds a lot..you can count on that.
@Steve Price: I didn’t like Dickerson that much, for the reasons you give. Add to it that he strikes out a lot without hitting for power.
Getting rid of him clears things up for 2011. Gomes will be DHing somewhere. Opportunity is wide open for Stubbs and Heisey, which is a good thing.
The most common complaint was not getting Edmonds or letting Dickerson go, but overpaying for Edmonds with Dickerson. I don’t know enough about the market for players like Dickerson and a 40 year old Edmonds to know whether that complaint is valid.