I never thought the Reds would be able to sign Counsell. Cincinnati offered a good contract, but they couldn’t top the offer made by the AARP, I guess.
Counsell is one of those players everyone likes. Too bad, but IMO he belongs with the Brewers.
Rumors abound regarding Alfredo Amezaga. He’s the kind of guy they’d bring in and Dusty would start him every day and make him their lead off. Horrible offense, but has a decent glove just about everywhere. Check out his FanGraph.
I’m glad Counsell has signed elsewhere, hopefully Carrol will sign somewhere else soon too. Hopefully all these crappy UTL players are of the market before Wlat wasted time and money signing one of them when they have a roster already full of them.
@Facts: if they bring in Amezaga, I am officially done with this team under the current regime. He is Willy T. version 2.0.
Yeah those are pretty good numbers compared to some of the guys on our roster but I have the feeling that if we brought him in we would overplay him, overpay him, and he is in his 40′s and most likely would revert back to our favorite catch phrase- the stats on the back of his baseball card which is somewhere around .250-.260 I believe. This team needs a #1 or #2 starter not a #5 guy. Volquez may never return back to form after his injury, Harang may never see an era under 4 again, Bronson hasn’t shown that he can pitch in the first half of the season, and I love Bailey and Cueto Im on their bandwagon, but they are young and haven’t proven that they can handle 200 innings and keep it together for a full season. Until we get a #1 or #2 type starter and have Jay Bruce be the guy he is on my playstation 3, we fans have to just sit and pray that everything falls into place perfectly, which we’ve done every year for the past 15 seasons! Sorry for being a debbie downer, just had to get that off my chest.
David: Yeah… who’d want Craig Counsell? I mean .285/.357/.408 in 130 ABs with the ability to play 2B/SS/3B would have really been a burden.
Yeah David, last year he was decent, I’ll give you that. Check out his numbers from the previous 2 seasons and they’re not that hot. Also, consider that he was playing behind Alcides Escobar, Flip Lope, and JJ Hardy and you’ll see that they could afford to pick their spots when to use him.
On our team, he’d be facing every best pitcher out there as our “best” offensive option at SS.
You know it’s bad when you can’t even find enough $$ to sign Craig Counsell. Now, if only we take the $$ that would’ve signed Gomes (and hope Walt’s smart enough to not give Laynce Nix a million bucks) and sign Orlando Cabrera, I might actually like our 2010 team.
Counsell is 40, right? I mean, he was really good last year, but this is all going to come to a screeching halt one of these years — possibly 2010 — and I’d rather not be on the hook for his salary when that happens.
Mark my words — DREW SUTTON is going to be better than any of these guys we’ve been discussing (Carroll, Counsell, Amezaga). He might already be better. I really think that. And we KNOW he’s cheaper.
Can we just take a chance on an unproven guy, for once? Please? Good teams do this. Teams that spend money wisely do this.
Always makes me cringe watching him bat with his unorthodox style. Can’t imagine having to watch that all season. I know, petty reason for not wanting him on the ball club, but there are other alternatives.
Agreed. A cheap Sutton tops an expensive 40 year old.
It was much easier for the Brewers who had several middle infielders they could rotate into good situations for the hitters. Some of Counsell’s surge last yeare is due to how he was managed, so I have no reason to believe that would continue if he had become a Red. I think Cincinnati was little more than a bargaining chip for his agent to help get him signed at a good price in Milwaukee.
Dan: Counsell is 40, right? I mean, he was really good last year, but this is all going to come to a screeching halt one of these years — possibly 2010 — and I’d rather not be on the hook for his salary when that happens.Mark my words — DREW SUTTON is going to be better than any of these guys we’ve been discussing (Carroll, Counsell, Amezaga). He might already be better. I really think that. And we KNOW he’s cheaper.Can we just take a chance on an unproven guy, for once? Please? Good teams do this. Teams that spend money wisely do this.
Well, to start, nobody but the Brewers were going to sign him. He lives in Milwaukee, is from Milwaukee, and wants to retire here. So, yes, the Reds probably would have had to overpay.
However, to suggest that Craig Counsell would not have been a good player to have is obtuse at best. Yes, during the two seasons prior to 2009, Counsell continued his unusual batting stance and his declining bat speed caused a significant drop in his slash line. In 2009, working with Dale Sveum, Counsell reverted to a more typical stance, increasing his bat speed, and saw better offensive production.
As for “protection” Escobar batted leadoff only 4 times, Hardy’s season long slump is well documented, and Counsell’s pre all-star/post all-star splits are almost identical suggesting Lopez’s arrival did very little. Nor can you convince me that hitting in front of Votto would be altogether different than hitting in front of Braun.
Counsell is far better defensively at 3B and 2B than short; however, he is a serviceable defender. I for one am glad to see the Reds chasing this type of utility player.
David, if you can find for me where I ever said those players were “protection” for Counsell, be my guest. What I inferred was that the Brewers had numerous middle infielders who could (and did) play, so they could play matchups with pitching staffs efficiently maximize their production.
For instance, check his splits vs. other NL central teams. He OPS’d almost .800 vs the Reds pitching staff in 58 PA’s last year, and OPS’d well over .800 in the same number of PA’s vs the Cards, by far and away the 2 teams he faced the most. He was not used nearly as much versus the Cubs or the Astros.
I don’t want 40 year old Craig Counsell on this team. I would have enjoyed having 32 year old Craig Counsell on my World Series winner.
Small factoids about Sutton: He’s played 111.2 Major League innings. He’s made zero errors. He has a professional batting average of .280, .389 OBP, switch hitter, and until last year was a regular threat to steal bags.
Still think he doesn’t belong on the ML roster though.
abcisme: Always makes me cringe watching him bat with his unorthodox style. Can’t imagine having to watch that all season. I know, petty reason for not wanting him on the ball club, but there are other alternatives.
Actually, Counsell changed his batting style to a more tradional stance last year, which he credits for his resurgence from his previous two seasons. If watch us play the Brewers at all last year, you’d know he would have been our best hitter not named Votto.
@Kevin Mitchell is Batman: You’re argument is obtuse, not you. After Weeks went down, Counsell became a regular. Counsell had 404 ABs in 130 games. Of the 32 games he missed, almost a third came before Weeks was injured. 11 came in the final month because of knee and hamstring issues. By the way, if anyone prohibited his playing time it was Casey McGhee.
In any event, assuming arguendo that your assessment was correct, your argument doesn’t hold water. The Reds would platoon Counsel with Rolen, Phillips, Sutton and Janish. Maximizing his skill set versus matchups. So how is that any different?
Counsell’s 40. His career is going to be over very very soon. He’ll probably hang on one year too long and suck in his final season (b/c almost everyone does that), and there’s a decent chance (simply due to age) that that’ll be the upcoming season.
I’m glad we aren’t taking that chance at the cost of a million or two.
The only thing Counsell would have done is waste a roster spot that could have been used to (gasp) develop a young guy in the bigs rather than rotting at AAA.
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Counsell is one of those players everyone likes. Too bad, but IMO he belongs with the Brewers.
Rumors abound regarding Alfredo Amezaga. He’s the kind of guy they’d bring in and Dusty would start him every day and make him their lead off. Horrible offense, but has a decent glove just about everywhere. Check out his FanGraph.
I’m glad Counsell has signed elsewhere, hopefully Carrol will sign somewhere else soon too. Hopefully all these crappy UTL players are of the market before Wlat wasted time and money signing one of them when they have a roster already full of them.
@Facts: if they bring in Amezaga, I am officially done with this team under the current regime. He is Willy T. version 2.0.
Yeah… who’d want Craig Counsell? I mean .285/.357/.408 in 130 ABs with the ability to play 2B/SS/3B would have really been a burden.
Yeah those are pretty good numbers compared to some of the guys on our roster but I have the feeling that if we brought him in we would overplay him, overpay him, and he is in his 40′s and most likely would revert back to our favorite catch phrase- the stats on the back of his baseball card which is somewhere around .250-.260 I believe. This team needs a #1 or #2 starter not a #5 guy. Volquez may never return back to form after his injury, Harang may never see an era under 4 again, Bronson hasn’t shown that he can pitch in the first half of the season, and I love Bailey and Cueto Im on their bandwagon, but they are young and haven’t proven that they can handle 200 innings and keep it together for a full season. Until we get a #1 or #2 type starter and have Jay Bruce be the guy he is on my playstation 3, we fans have to just sit and pray that everything falls into place perfectly, which we’ve done every year for the past 15 seasons! Sorry for being a debbie downer, just had to get that off my chest.
Yeah David, last year he was decent, I’ll give you that. Check out his numbers from the previous 2 seasons and they’re not that hot. Also, consider that he was playing behind Alcides Escobar, Flip Lope, and JJ Hardy and you’ll see that they could afford to pick their spots when to use him.
On our team, he’d be facing every best pitcher out there as our “best” offensive option at SS.
You know it’s bad when you can’t even find enough $$ to sign Craig Counsell. Now, if only we take the $$ that would’ve signed Gomes (and hope Walt’s smart enough to not give Laynce Nix a million bucks) and sign Orlando Cabrera, I might actually like our 2010 team.
@David: Depends on his role and what you’d expect him to do. Last year appears to have been a career year for him.
The past three years in Mil has been .249/.347/.350, which is very close to his career line. I think that’s what you could expect him to do.
I like the OBP, but last year was only the 2nd time in his career that he SLG over .400.
I don’t think I would have been upset at an inexpensive 1-yr deal, but I’m not worried that the Breers signed him either.
Counsell is 40, right? I mean, he was really good last year, but this is all going to come to a screeching halt one of these years — possibly 2010 — and I’d rather not be on the hook for his salary when that happens.
Mark my words — DREW SUTTON is going to be better than any of these guys we’ve been discussing (Carroll, Counsell, Amezaga). He might already be better. I really think that. And we KNOW he’s cheaper.
Can we just take a chance on an unproven guy, for once? Please? Good teams do this. Teams that spend money wisely do this.
But who will be the “everday Joe” the fans can appreciate for his honest effort on the field? Paul Janish better start running out his walks.
Always makes me cringe watching him bat with his unorthodox style. Can’t imagine having to watch that all season. I know, petty reason for not wanting him on the ball club, but there are other alternatives.
Agreed. A cheap Sutton tops an expensive 40 year old.
It was much easier for the Brewers who had several middle infielders they could rotate into good situations for the hitters. Some of Counsell’s surge last yeare is due to how he was managed, so I have no reason to believe that would continue if he had become a Red. I think Cincinnati was little more than a bargaining chip for his agent to help get him signed at a good price in Milwaukee.
Well, to start, nobody but the Brewers were going to sign him. He lives in Milwaukee, is from Milwaukee, and wants to retire here. So, yes, the Reds probably would have had to overpay.
However, to suggest that Craig Counsell would not have been a good player to have is obtuse at best. Yes, during the two seasons prior to 2009, Counsell continued his unusual batting stance and his declining bat speed caused a significant drop in his slash line. In 2009, working with Dale Sveum, Counsell reverted to a more typical stance, increasing his bat speed, and saw better offensive production.
As for “protection” Escobar batted leadoff only 4 times, Hardy’s season long slump is well documented, and Counsell’s pre all-star/post all-star splits are almost identical suggesting Lopez’s arrival did very little. Nor can you convince me that hitting in front of Votto would be altogether different than hitting in front of Braun.
Counsell is far better defensively at 3B and 2B than short; however, he is a serviceable defender. I for one am glad to see the Reds chasing this type of utility player.
this was exactly my thought….
no weathers
no freel
no sabo
no gomes
is corky still on the team?
but do not fear…….two words
SCOTT ROLEN
I can’t stand Counsell but here is a little, errr, trivia
Counsell’s OBP the last two seasons was .355 and .357
In the last two seasons do you know how many Reds have had 300 or more plate appearances and over a .350 OBP??
3!!
Votto twice
Dunn
and Jr
Counsell’s bad…..but the Reds are worse
@David:
David, if you can find for me where I ever said those players were “protection” for Counsell, be my guest. What I inferred was that the Brewers had numerous middle infielders who could (and did) play, so they could play matchups with pitching staffs efficiently maximize their production.
For instance, check his splits vs. other NL central teams. He OPS’d almost .800 vs the Reds pitching staff in 58 PA’s last year, and OPS’d well over .800 in the same number of PA’s vs the Cards, by far and away the 2 teams he faced the most. He was not used nearly as much versus the Cubs or the Astros.
I don’t want 40 year old Craig Counsell on this team. I would have enjoyed having 32 year old Craig Counsell on my World Series winner.
Oh, don’t call me obtuse again. That’s assinine.
Small factoids about Sutton: He’s played 111.2 Major League innings. He’s made zero errors. He has a professional batting average of .280, .389 OBP, switch hitter, and until last year was a regular threat to steal bags.
Still think he doesn’t belong on the ML roster though.
The MLB signings updates are just twittering off the hook today. It’s never about the Reds.
This is from Peter Gammon’s Twitter during the Winter Meetings…
@pgammo: winter meetins obselete waste. one team spent more on food than players 2:20 PM Dec 10th from mobile web
(I wonder who he was talking about…Cough Cough REDS Cough Cough!)
Actually, Counsell changed his batting style to a more tradional stance last year, which he credits for his resurgence from his previous two seasons. If watch us play the Brewers at all last year, you’d know he would have been our best hitter not named Votto.
@Kevin Mitchell is Batman: You’re argument is obtuse, not you. After Weeks went down, Counsell became a regular. Counsell had 404 ABs in 130 games. Of the 32 games he missed, almost a third came before Weeks was injured. 11 came in the final month because of knee and hamstring issues. By the way, if anyone prohibited his playing time it was Casey McGhee.
In any event, assuming arguendo that your assessment was correct, your argument doesn’t hold water. The Reds would platoon Counsel with Rolen, Phillips, Sutton and Janish. Maximizing his skill set versus matchups. So how is that any different?
Don’t bring me down man… I’m still high on this Chris Burke signing
Counsell’s 40. His career is going to be over very very soon. He’ll probably hang on one year too long and suck in his final season (b/c almost everyone does that), and there’s a decent chance (simply due to age) that that’ll be the upcoming season.
I’m glad we aren’t taking that chance at the cost of a million or two.
Saw that headline last night, and immediately rolled my eyes thinking, “wow, it’s a sad state of affairs for this team if this is considered news.”
The only thing Counsell would have done is waste a roster spot that could have been used to (gasp) develop a young guy in the bigs rather than rotting at AAA.
Dusty would play Craig Counsell every day, some place.