Loading ...The Reds declined to tender a contract to Jonny Gomes for the 2010 season, making his return to the team in 2010 unlikely.
“I was really surprised,” Gomes said on Saturday. “When I was non-tenured by the Rays in 2008, I wasn’t surprised. This time I was.”
Gomes hit .267/.338/.541 and 20 home runs in part-time play with the Reds. He was one of the Reds most effective hitters against left-handers, hitting .307 with a .369 OBP against lefties.
Gomes sounded unhappy:
“It’s not like I was breaking the bank,” said Gomes, who signed a 1-year deal for $600,000 last season….
“I definitely loved my time there from the fans at the ballpark to the management and the players,” Gomes said.
Go read the entire article, and we’ll close the book on the Jonny Gomes era in Reds history. I enjoyed watching the guy play, even as the Reds screwed around with him at the beginning of last season.
Here’s hoping Gomes lands on his feet in a situation where he can thrive. That’s not going to be Cincinnati, so I guess it’s time to retire the sombrero:
If Willy isn’t freed soon…….
Seriously, can anyone explain this one? Why not at least tender a deal and then see if you can sign and spin him? We let him go for nothing but Taveras has a roster spot? Words fail me.
Keep the sombrero. I fear it can be used as symbol for blown decisions we make for short term monetary reasons.
I’ll will not be at the ballpark next season if this idiocy continues. I’ll spend my money on minor league baseball this year. They at least look like they are trying.
No point in watching the Reds this coming spring…he’ll make someone a good DH or outfielder…thanks for working so hard Johnny we just have a terrible management and ownership here. Pathetic, just pathetic.
If this was part of a consistent tear it down let the kids play plan I could get it (barely it is still letting a resource go for nothing) but how do you square that with Rolen? There is no plan, and we are turing into the &%$#&^% early 2000 pirates.
Gee, if the brass would come out and say the reason we can’t afford Jonny Gomes is because we’re going to DFA WT, I could get on board. Sadly, I fear this is not the case. Adios, and thanks Mr. Gomes.
They’re not going to release Taveras and nor should they. The Reds have to pay him regardless and they have a center fielder who has 6 weeks’ service time and another who can’t escape the trainer’s room. If Stubbs flops in the spring and/or needs to go back to Louisville for a while, which wouldn’t be a total surprise, someone has to play the position.
Taveras is around because of his salary, yes. But releasing him means having to pay someone to replace him. If you haven’t noticed, this team has no payroll flexibility. Taveras will get at-bats in the spring and they’ll see if he’s healthy, productive and possibly marketable. His career is at a crossroads; he’s got plenty to prove.
If Stubbs flubs, they’re protected. If Stubbs excels, then they make a decision on Taveras at the end of spring training.
There’s just not one logical, objective reason to release Taveras at this point and time. If they were going to release, the time would have been when they were setting the 40-man. Not now and not before spring training is complete.
Gomes can still re-sign with the Reds. He’s a free agent. The move of non-tendering him is procedural in many ways.
The way these things typically work is the team and agent discuss the arbitration numbers. The team can decide whether that’s a number they want to pay or negotiate or see if there’s a trade market for the player. The Reds know that if Gomes doesn’t have a market they can re-sign him at their number or cheaper.
But on the other hand, the agent also knows his player’s value. He usually knows if a team will be interested, perhaps even offer a multi-year deal. Let’s say 2 years, $5 mil for Gomes. Why would the agent want Gomes in Cincinnati when he knows they will pay only $1.5 for one year? So sometimes the agent purposefully prices his guy out so he can be a free agent.
Did that happen here? Who knows? But Gomes probably has a market. There’s not a lot of right-handed power corner outfielders on the free agent market who will hit 20 bombs and make below MLB average.
The Reds should have kept him. But if Gomes was pressing for multiple years and between $2-$3 million ayear, there’s no way the Reds would want to block Frazier, Heisey and perhaps Francisco in 2011, if not sooner.
They should release him (Taveras) but you are right that the time was back when they set the 40-man roster. It would serve no purpose to cut him today.
He wasn’t marketable 12 months ago. Nothing he does in spring training is going to boost his stock.
I think the salary comp for Gomes here is Ramon Hernandez. If they have no payroll flexibility, then they chose Hernandez over Gomes. Wrong choice, IMO.
I actually agree with this decision. Gomes is not the answer for the future. He might help a little in 2010. I say “a little” because as much as he contributes offensively he gives some away defensively. He might be the right handed bat in a platoon but he is not going to be a regular. A multi-year contract would make no sense what so ever. We better have a better choice in 2011. That is the year when things should be positioned to come together. You have 2010 to figure that out. Gomes actually gets in the way of that. You have to see if Heisey, Fraser, Balentien or Dickerson are going to be good enough for LF. Alone or in platoon. Or if Alonso is going to force the choice of putting Votto out there. Giving playing time and at bats to Gomes only delays and takes away from that. If none of that works, that is the time to get a FA for LF if the Reds look that close and that would put them over the top. 2010 is one year premature. It just is. And Taveras will be gone in 2011 if not before.
@RedBlooded: Good argument, but that means 2010 is about getting ready for 2011 and the expensive pickup of Rolen makes no sense. 3B is a position that Fraser and Francisco play.
Rolen was a Castellini acquisition, not Jocketty. Castellini wanted Rolen. Period. Logic be damned. It is what it is—don’t overthink it. Also: Rolen is not $11 million, he’s actually $6.25 mil because they were already locked into EE this year for $4.75 mil.
2010 is a ‘tweener year. It has been since the end of 2008, when the economy tanked and changed the Reds’ entire offseason plans.
People who get all wound about competing in 2010 should save their breath and anxieties. Watch the kids, analyze their development, have a good time with following them. Wins and losses are not predicators to enjoying baseball. Reds have their best young talent in 20 years. I look forward to seeing how they perform and what needs to be done to keep building toward the bigger goal.
I agree with you pinson343. Rolen was a bad decision. And two wrongs don’t make a right, so I say let jonny go.
Retire the sombrero?
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I am still going to wear a sombrero next time I make a Reds game.
Good move. A 260 hitter with power that can’t play defense. If you aren’t going to games because they didn’t want that then you probab;y shouldn’t.
Balentein is a better choice for that position.
Yes, keep the sombrero. Real ‘winners’ can wear it next season.
And if the argument of ‘who is going to play CF if Stubbs can’t cut it’ is going to be used, I say I’d rather have Nix than Taveras. Dickerson is there as well. We certainly have better options.
I like Rolen, and I wouldn’t mind his acquisition if the team actually plans on winning THIS season. Any other reason for getting him is plain ol’ fashion dumb.
I kinda hope the deals Mr. R was talking about will materialize, otherwise this may be a miserable season….and before anyone talks to me about 2011, I have waited patiently long enough for a good team.
I agree with Mr. Redlegs’ logic here, but this salary logic has been thrown around for awhile and it’s just not right.
Rolen is still $11 million, no matter what Encarnacion’s salary would have been. Yes, it’s $6.25 million MORE, but it’s still $11 million on the payroll for what is now an average player, not a star…and he’s no longer an impact player.
Any way you cut it…it’s $11 mil…or, if one cares to think of it this way, it’s $6.25 million less than we would have had to acquire more help if EE was still here…plus the loss of potential talent in the youngsters dealt. (I’m not going to argue that Stewart is a future Cy Young…but he is a real prospect).
The Reds now have high salaries locked up in four good players: Arroyo, Cordero, Harang, and Rolen….Phillips gets added to the list next. Owners that “choose” to play small market baseball won’t win that way…..that’s what the Yankees are for….we need the youngsters on the way up. Gomes isn’t a youngster, but he’s a useful part that “small market” teams can use to their advantage. Unfortunately, trying to be the Yankees, or even the Cardinals (which seems to be Castellini’s business model based on his own experiences) will keep this team from winning because we’re investing in the wrong talent pool.
Anybody who thinks Willy is a legit option at CF in 2010 either isn’t looking at his history or is looking through rose-colored glasses. His defense is terrible. He misplays routine flyballs and gets bailed out by his speed. He can’t bunt (needed more time at AAA). He can’t hit for power. He can’t hit for average. He can’t even manage to walk. We all know Dusty is going to lead off with his CF. Does anybody here really want that to be WT next year, no matter what the circumstances? Either Stubbs, Dickerson or Heisey will work out next year at CF. Not all 3 will fail. WT will end up being one expensive pinch runner.
Any way you look at it from a baseball prospective..this was a BAD move.
Except…We know the REDS are broke. And if they had tendered a contract & it was rejected…The Team & JG would have went to ARB (where the Reds lose & JC gets more than the REDS have to spend).
I can see Walt saving face for Bob’s broke ass…by letting Jonny go…and spinning/hailing the youth movement plan to the media.
I truly hope Gomes goes and gets a big contract with a team like the Astros or the Diamonbacks, comes to GABP and hits another 3 HR game. I’m quickly loosing confidence in WJ.
This will be an ok move if one or more guys step up big. Out of the Balentien/Dickerson/Heisey/Fransisco/Frazier group, surely one of them can be productive in the lineup. I liked Gomes, loved his power, but he really is pretty limited in what he can do. He doesn’t get on base, can’t play a lick of defense, but hits huge bombs. I really liked him against lefties, but against righties wasn’t all that great. I would love to see one of the guys above become a consistent player and really take ahold of the spot. CHONES had Balentien as the same production as Gomes for this next year, and he is much cheaper.
If Dickerson wins the spot, then I would bat him leadoff due to his high OBP, and bat Stubbs second. If Balentien or Heisey win the job then I would bat them about 6th and move Rolen to 2nd (Heisey could bat 2nd also).
Balentien… a quick lookup of his LF stats last year shows a OPS+ of 104, a UZR/150 of +20.7, but a WAR of only +.8 (that’s surprising considering the other stats)
Gomes… In LF OPS+ 127, UZR/150 +2.2, +.6 (no surprises there)
I’m not making a point. I’m just looking at the numbers.
The Reds have more depth & potential in the outfield than they do for the infield. If they are going to spend $1.5 – 2 million on a platoon/back-up/possible starter, it would be better spent at SS where they only have Janish.
Gomes is worth the asking price, but not for the Reds.
amother stupid decesion but now that it has been made how about not signing somebody else’s reject at a lower salary and just play the young guys we have?somebody needs to explain to dusty and managment that the only way for young players to improve is to play them reguarly!the reds are not going to win anything this year so play the youngs and develop them!.so what if you sign a vetern on the cheap then they finish 25 games out instead of 30?let these young guys play so if they do have the talent they will get the experiance they need then you will have a young experianced team that will be able to challenge for titles for years!
Dumb move in my opinion.
Anyone else feel like we didn’t see enough of Balentien last year to get a real good feel of his readiness? He only had 125 PAs and there were many times he should have been playing for evaluation sake. I’d feel better if he had closer to 200 PAs so I’m still wondering if he’s a AAAA player.
Dumb move especially considering the rumors the Reds are pursuing Brian Giles. If they can’t afford Gomes, how are they going to afford Giles?
Egg-zactly.
As for Brian Giles, he’ll be lucky to get a guaranteed contract for the Major League minimum.
Gomes could’ve won the triple crown and people would still be carping about his defense. Bottom line is, this team can’t hit. So you get people who can hit and get rid of people who can’t hit. This team does the opposite in dumping Gomes but keeping Taveras, all for financial reasons. Taveras’ contract alone should cost Jocketty his job, but there’s always Lincoln, too.
Until this team stops blowing money on replacement level players and invests in talent, you will not see another .500 team in Cincinnati.
@John: If Gomes won the triple crown nobody would care about his defense. Bottom line he was not a candidate to win the triple crown, or any one of its three componets so his defense is an issue.
Mark in CC, I don’t exactly think it was Gomes fault that Jokerty opted to keep him in AAA for 6 weeks to start the season while Darnell McFlurry got consistent at bats. It took a shattered Bruce wrist before Gomes got any significant time, and he responded accordingly.
His defense shouldn’t be an issue at all. We got Rolen for his D, and if we’re really going to roll with soft-J at SS, we’ve got a top 5 left side of the infield. Couple that with the D of Stubbs, Bruce, and BP and we’ve got a stellar, if not spectacular defensive team.
We need offense in the worst way, especially from the RH side of the plate. Defense is great, yes, but we don’t need to sign Ray Lewis to play RF. WE NEED GOMES’ BAT. There’s a reason Balentien has no options left and was traded…he’s not a MLB player. Damn this move infuriates me.
This could go as a new topic…but any thoughts about a reuniting between Dustin Moseley and the Reds? I think he was non-tendered by the Angels. We could try to bring him in and compete for the fifth spot and I think he’s in his late-twenties so he might have a breakout year!
I’m curious…who is the better option when healthy in CF? Stubbs or Dickerson? I don’t think you can have both in the everyday lineup, so I think either one starts in CF, or they both platoon in CF.
I guess I’ll answer my own question! I think Dickerson is the better option when healthy. That is a big if of course, but I don’t understand people just giving Stubbs the CF spot.
Dickerson’s best value is in CF. Remember all those diving plays? His improved on base percentage? He’s still a question mark, but man they need some hitting in this lineup. Put Frazier or Heisey in LF, guys who don’t seem to strike out as much, and see if you can actually get a decent offense going for next year.
I’m not against Stubbs ever being the guy, but he doesn’t deserve the nod over a healthy Dickerson in my opinion. And of course, I don’t trust Dusty’s decision making in these matters anyway!
JerBear, the “diving plays” that Dickerson makes are caught by Stubbs without him having to dive. He’s quicker, faster, HEALTHIER, and a much better base stealer than Dickerson.
I like Dickerson, and his OBP can have a place in my lineup several times a week, but certainly not everyday. Depending on matchups, I’d like to see him get a few starts in CF here and there, but be a LH platoon option in LF primarily.
Those fans that have issue with this move, you know what…I hear Pittsburgh is looking for a few fans? I mean come on, you are upset over them not resigning Gomes? I mean reall?
What’s up with EE’s picture on this page?
Um, everyone needs to calm down. Are we all aware that 1) The three years before becoming a Red, Gomes played at or below replacement level? 2) That there is literally no reason to think that Balentin won’t be, more or less, exactly the same player at a fraction of the cost? I mean, yeah, okay, I like Gomes, he’s a likable guy, but he’s not the second coming of Babe Ruth. He’s a slightly above league-average hitter who had a good year at age 28 (surprise!) and who plays a position where slightly-above average hitters are just about a dime-a-dozen. I’d like to have him around, but let’s all calm down. I know we’re frustrated, but just isn’t something to get worked up about.
Hell from the interviews I saw with him after a couple of games this year he didn’t even seem like a likable guy
It seems to me that the payroll restraints may have finally pushed this management to go young. A main criticism of the Castellini regime has been their inability to mae up their minds. I will put the Roland signing behind me and hope they will no longer block the paths of players like Frazier, Cozart, Fancisco and Alonso. Additionally, the only way Dusty is going to play young players is if thats all they give him.
I’m sorry, I guess I didn’t realize that the Reds were so chock full of hitters that they could let 20HR/51RBI/127OPS+ just walk.
Why are people so enamored of Wladimir Balentien? He has a career .221 BA/.281 OBP/.625 OPS and while he can play some defense, he’s a no-hit/strong-defense outfielder — they’re a dime a dozen. You can go 162 games without an error but if you can’t produce runs you will still lose.
This team will have Taveras and Dickerson on the bench this year. If they were that worked up about having ONE guy on the field whose defense was suspect, then they could’ve pulled Gomes after the 6th inning, and run Taveras or Dickerson out there. This move just smacks of short-sightedness, but as Reds fans we should be used to that by now.
At least with Gomes out of the way, Balentien (.221/.281/.695) and Taveras (not pulling his numbers because it’s obvious) will see lots of much-deserved playing time.
Agreed, and thank you John.
Like I said earlier, there’s a gluttony of reasons why Wladdy is out of options and got traded for a middling reliever who couldn’t touch 90mph. He’s not that good.
Maybe that means they’ll play Frazier next year, but I’m going to just assume we’re not that foreward thinking. I’d like to give Jokerty the benefit of the doubt, but he burned that hunch many many moves ago. This just stinks of a must-move based on the Tvirus/Rolen/Lincoln/Harang/Coco debacles of current and former GM regimes. Sucks to let go a guy like Gomes so I can watch Dickerson take a walk and not get driven in. Sweeeet.
The 2 main reasons I’m pissed about the Gomes Non-Tender…
1) If he wasn’t in the 2010 plans, why not trade him last season for a mid-tier prospect or 2???
2) If he wasn’t in the 2010 plans, why not non-tender him earlier & make a Rule V pick/protect another prospect of our prospects???
There’s no rhyme or reason to this club.
I’m in SD, and the paper here claimed that the Reds were in the market for a 3b (Kouzmanoff). I wrote the writer to ask WTF, and got no response.
I don’t see the loss of Gomes as a big deal.
It’s not if you don’t mind the Reds letting their best RH hitter walk.
Career BA OBP SLG OPS OPS+
Rolen .284 .370 .498 .868 124
Gomes .241 .330 .471 .801 109
Hernandez .262 .327 .417 .743 95
Phillips .265 .312 .430 .742 90
Neither Rolen or Hernandez has matched their career OPS since 2006, they are both in severe decline.
Now what is it that the Reds have been hunting for the last two offseasons? A RH hitting LF with power. Go figure, they make a shrewd buy low signing last offseason to obtain one and now let him walk over a couple of million dollars. He should have been hitting cleanup last season instead of Phillips. I wouldn’t mind it as much if I had any faith whatsoever in that they would play only Balentien and/or Heisey in LF and Dickerson and/or Stubbs in center. But you know Taveras is going to have to play CF and leadoff 100+ games next season to earn his $4M. I wouldn’t expect to see Frazier out there any this season, they’ll probably have in in Louisville all year learning to catch. Don’t even get me started on Francisco as a LF. I could even make some sense of this move if they moved Votto to LF this year and signed a one year bat for 1B until Alonso was ready, but nah, that would mean there was a plan or something.
Fay is reporting now:
“I told Jonny last night that we’d like to make it work and we’ll try to do that,” Jocketty said. “We just didn’t want to be locked in with arbitration.”
Jocketty continues to talk with Laynce Nix’s agent as well.
“We’re pretty close to getting something done on that,” Jocketty said.
Look for Gomes to get a better offer elsewhere after having a nice bounceback season like most expected. A shame we had him locked in but were to cheap to keep him. Nix will be a nice backup and LH PH with pop, and will ensure that Heisey and probably Stubbs will start the year in AAA if they do get him signed. Pittsburgh is shaking in their shoes.
Total change of subject, but I wonder if Wang and his soft throwing high gb rate would be decent in between hard hurlers Bailey and Cueto? I’d be interested to see him as the fifth guy. I still think the money this team will spend has to go into pitching.
@David: Don’t you think Arroyo and Maloney throw enough soft-stuff for one rotation? I’d rather not take a flier on Wang. I’d rather the Reds try to land Lackey and ‘bite the bullet’ so to speak for one season, before Arroyo’s and/or Harang’s salaries are off the books. Unfortunately, I’m dreaming.
BTW, Wang’s fastball averaged around 92mph before his surgery, so not necessarily a soft-tosser. IDK, maybe he might be worth taking a flier on, especially if there is transparency with his rehab and he truly is progressing nicely.
@Steve Price: That’s exactly right, Steve.
As stated by other posters, Gomes is not Babe Ruth. Granted. But when management speaks all of last year about acquiring a RH outfield bat with pop and how important that is, I don’t get it. You allow the closest thing you have to that walk when you could have grabbed a little something for him earlier even if you didn’t intend on keeping him around. Is he significantly cheaper to sign now as a FA then he would have been going through arb? I could have lived with a Gomes or Gomes/Nix LF if we could have signed a MLB quality shortstop.
The guy had a career slugging year at what, 29? he also struck out close to once every 3 ABs and played sub par defense. The Reds obviously don’t feel he was the answer in LF, and neither did the Rays over the 5 or 6 years prior. The Reds can’t afford to spend inflated arbitration money on a guy that would serve as a 4th OF or platoon LF when they have 3 potential options that would all cost a fraction as much.
It sucks, but Gomes was a luxury, not a core component. If he stays or signs elsewhere it will have little impact on the Reds’ record next year.
One thing I don’t understand is why we’re referring to the Harang contract as a ‘debacle.’ I mean, when they signed him to that extension (and Arroyo to his), he was 1. young and 2. one of the best young pitchers in baseball. Pitchers get hurt, that’s always a risk, and why some teams are wary of giving even the best pitchers more than 4 years. With the kind of money being handed out (Meche, Zito, neither of whom, I think anyone who’d seen the three thought was a better pitcher than Harang), Harang’s deal was a bargain. The Reds hadn’t had a decent, dependable pitcher in a very long time, I mean, they had nothing, then finally had Harang. They had to make that deal. With Zito and Meche, Lilly and Suppan signing deals that matched or exceeded what the Reds gave Harang, one had to expect that Harang was going to become unaffordable in a very short time.
Arroyo fit into that as well, the market for starting pitching was going through the roof, we had a pair of very serviceable, and in Harang’s case, a very good, if not outstanding SP. In the bad old days, a SP who posted an ERA like Harang over the last two (bad) years would have been referred to as our ‘Ace.’
Cordero is different story, the Reds paid what a high end closer costs, and overpaid. That’s how it goes when you suck, you have to overpay to get FA’s like that (see above, Gil Meche — as bad as they are, the Reds aren’t the Royals). The Reds had to do something, though– they’d have a blowout lead and somehow blow it in the 8th the year before they signed Cordero. (The less successful Milton deal was another example of this– in that case, they chose unwisely– Cordero’s at least done about what you’d expect at that salary, which is what the Reds desperately needed when they signed him.) Now, we’ve got Masset, if he holds up like this year from year to year, Cordero is expendable, but because of the aforementioned overpayment, we’re stuck. Remembering that Reds bullpen before Cordero, it was as depressing as this year’s July for a whole season, worse, you’d feel like the game was in the bag, take the dog out, come home and find them losing.
My point is that those were deals that they had to do at the time, and it doesn’t seem terribly productive to read this stuff backward based on the Reds current strengths. Fine, Harang and Arroyo get a lot of money– before Volquez and Cueto emerged, and now Bailey, anyone want to try to imagine the Reds SP without Harang and Arroyo? They weren’t trying to find a 5th starter, as most teams were, they were looking for a #3 and #4 too. I know it’s hard sometimes to remember back before Ty Howington won his first Cy Young, but it was pretty bleak.
Further, what I find curious is someone going out and buying a MLB franchise, then pointing to Harang and Arroyo as albatross contracts constricting payroll– those were pretty good deals for the Reds, and comparatively speaking, still are for decent veteran starting pitchers. If you’re going to have decent SP’s, that’s what they’re going to cost, it’s something you should expect when you buy a team. Alfonso Soriano, Barry Zito (they may well not be able to keep Lincecum because of that), well, that’s a bit different.
The Reds problem with folks like Taveras and other such signings (Corey Patterson) is they don’t ask the same question we all do when making a major purchase– ask the previous owner ‘So, how come you want to sell/get rid of it?’ They assume that the previous owner is an idiot to let someone like this go. Sometimes the guy who’s just going to let you drive off in that 81 Chevette for $50 knows he’s the one getting the great deal.
People are forgeting how Gomes defense really kills his value. Going just by the numbers for last year:
Gomes had a UZR/150 of 2.2 in LF, 0.6 WAR, and a value of $2.8
Balentien had a UZR/150 of 20.7 in LF, 0.8 WAR, and a value of $3.8
Dickerson had a UZR/150 of 21.8 in LF, 1.7 WAR, and a value of $7.6
So if they are going to get more value of the two cheap players that is what they are going to do given the current payroll flexibility.
Also, if they sign Gomes now it would be in the 2-3 mil range. I think he is going to have a very hard time finding a job, and if you wait closer to spring training to sign him you might be able to get him for around 1 mil. There are a lot of good players having a hard time finding jobs and very few teams looking to spend money. If he wants to play, then you might get him for a lot cheaper by just waiting out the market. Just some food for though on the situation.
I hear a whole lot of doom and gloom about the Reds chances in 2010 if they don’t do X, Y, and Z in the off season. But they were something like 25-15 over the last 6 weeks of the season. I don’t know exactly why. In that time Bruce came back from his injury and Stubbs took over in CF. Bailey was on fire during that stretch too. I am not sure what else.
Although I don’t think the Reds of September ‘09 are the same ones we will see in 2010, I don’t see any reason to believe the Reds of July ‘09 will be back.
I really honestly think they are the oft cliched ‘1 or 2 players away’ right now. LF was one of those 1-2 positions we have talked about, even when they still controlled Gomes. I don’t know, it feels like we are overplaying Gomes’ value to the team. If he had earned the starting LF job then I’d be more bummed. But I am just as happy to see if Frazier, Francisco, or Balentein can be that answer.
The Reds were 27-13 in their final 40 games. They played the Pirates 11 times during this part of the season and only lost once.
I want to be optimistic, but I also can’t help get that Groundhog Day feeling. Many wanted to look at 2008’s winning record after the Dunn trade (22-21?) as a reason to expect a good 2009.
and without the injuries to Bruce and Volquez and losing Votto for quite awhile, who’s to say we wouldn’t have had a good 2009?
Well they went from 14 games under .500 in 2008 to 6 games under the next season. An improvement is an improvement.
If you really want to know why the Reds have been awful for the past decade look at this over at red reporter:
http://www.redreporter.com/2009/12/14/1198978/heroes-of-the-zeros-the-starting
@shane: Show me a team that has made it 162 games without suffering injuries.
@jason1972: 78 wins is an improvement over 74 wins. Though we all know in baseball history that an increase from one year to the next does not mean we’ll see linear improvement the following year. Just look at the Reds from the past decade:
Win totals from 2000-2009:
85 (2000)
66
78
69
76
73
80
72
74
78 (2009)
They had a breakthrough in their pitching and defense last year. The lowest runs allowed of the decade, but at the cost of offense. They also posted their lowest runs scored of the decade. Moves like Gomes doesn’t help next year’s offense.
The Reds have no financial leverage so this move doesn’t bother me. Gomes is not a fulltime leftfielder, batting against lefthanded pitching and a defensive liability. The Reds are loaded with outfield prospects; it’s time to go with youth in leftfield since we don’t have the money to get a big bopper.
I’d sure rather have Jonny Gomes and the Sombrero than Nix. However, none of these guys are “the” answer. Given we won’t have Gomes, I’d like to see Dickerson/Nix, Stubs, Bruce in the outfield. And we’ll see about the youngsters. It’s still very possible they are keeping LF open for Votto depending on how Alsonso goes (though that still doesn’t solve the problem of LF for ‘10).
By the way… do you think this means we aren’t going after Jason Bay too?
What’s really going to bake everyone’s noodle is that the Reds will sign Jamey Carroll for two years at 4 million.
Funny, we sit and moan and gripe because we can’t afford Gomes, meanwhile the rich get richer.
Phils will be adding Roy Halliday
Red Sox add Lachey from the Angles
As for Greg Counsel, he is playing in Brewer land next year. The issue here is simple, either major league owners put into place a payroll ceiling and floor, or watch baseball become a 4-5 team sport long term.
^^^ If that happens…Yes, My noodle would be baked.
And Walt would have to be “half-baked” to do that deal.
I still do not understand why the Reds are trying to find a UTL (w/ some SS skills)…When they have Rosales (UTL who’s played SS)…Sutton (SHB UTL that can play SS)…as well as Frazier (Jack of all trades – primarily a SS as a pro)…And have AAA SS Cozart making strides everyday towards being MLB ready in short order.
If the REDS are so broke..Why not TRY to go w/ the above during ST…and see what happens (There will be guys that come available during ST). And it’s not as if the UTL they seek is the missing component to a Play-off team or WS contender.
Agreed. We have been spending waaaaaay too much time on a bench player. It just reeks of a team with no real plan.
You know what the current regime reminds me of? The new boss who doesn’t really understand the jobs of the people he manages, so he goes crazy on time and attendance and other non-consequential policy issues just so he can justify his position…..trying to go young and play for the future, and give up young arms for a veteran 3b who won’t be around once you are respectable. Go from the Corey Patterson debacle to the Willy Taveras debacle. Declare the need for a right handed power outfield bat and let Gomes walk for nothing. Say “Win Now” and play for next year at the same time. Don’t even get me started on the batting orders. Sheesh.
@Chris:
Thanks for defending Harang and Arroyo. Each one has worked hard to become an asset to his team. People sometimes fail to remember that these guys work with stinking run support.
T.O.S.
Why would the Reds want to get a creep like Brian Giles?
If they are going to stoop that low, I’d rather see them call Barry Bonds.
I hear ya…
The Plan is…”there’s no plan, we’re just winging it.”
If there was a plan…it’s had at minimum 26 amendments…And no longer resembles the original in any shape or form.
(Kind of like the “Healthcare Reform” that is going through the political process….and will come out worse on the other side.)
I’m actually ok with where things are right now, agreeing with Mr. Redlegs from way up top. If Gomes can get 2 years 5 mil from someone to be their DH, he should do it. If he can’t and he wants to be a bridge/bench player for the reds for $1mil, fantastic.
The reds are going to give Heisey a shot to win left field out of ST I think, and Frazier will probably also be in the mix. Gomes would mostly be a back up plan and a right handed bat off the bench for them now. That’s not nothing, but it’s not worth $2.5 mil if that’s what he wants and can get elsewhere.
And the reality is, Gomes D pretty much does kill his contribution at the plate. If Heisey can produce a .750 ops he’s probably going to be more valuable than Gomes on a nightly basis.
Yes. In terms of the LF situation, it would really help to have a better idea of what Balentien can do.
This may be true, but the fact remains that Dickerson played much better in CF than in either corner. Early in the season, he was a disaster in LF. When Taveras was out for a while, he played an excellent CF, a lot better than Taveras. Then later in the season, he moves over to RF, where he keeps dropping line drives that are right in his glove.
(Don’t talk to me about errors, most of those drops were ruled a hits.)
He has said himself that in CF he just plays on instinct, in the corner OFs he “has to think.” I have no idea why that would be, but I do know (from personal experience) it’s easier to judge a ball off the bat from CF. Junior Griffey said CF is the easiest OF position to play in that respect.
I see Dickerson as a good number 4 OFer only if he learns to play the corners.
@Chris: Agreed. I don’t see how the Harang/Cordero (or Rolen) signings can be compared to Taveras/Lincoln signings.
It’s one thing to overpay for talent or have a talented player get hurt. It’s something else to make 2 year deals for players who just plain suck.
“What else” was Arroyo, Rolen, Janish, Votto’s return to form and a bullpen that kept holding leads. Before anyone jumps on me about Janish and/or Rolen, let’s remember that Rosales was our 3rd baseman for much of that terrible 3rd quarter. And our situation at SS had been abysmal.
With Janish and Rolen, suddenly the left side of our infield was playing outstanding defense.
But I agree with all that 27-13 is not at all representative of what we can expect for 2010, given the current roster.
I don’t think anyone sane would say the last 40 games could possibly be representative of what to expect in 2010. If I did the math right it would come out to 109 wins in a full season. That would be the best record in all of baseball last year, six games better than the winningest team, the Yankees. Ah, even I couldn’t dream that high. Sigh.
Fay is reporting that it would’ve taken $1.5m in arbitration to keep Gomes.
How much will Willy Taveras make next year? Ramon Hernandez?
It’s not how much money this team has or doesn’t have. It’s how stupid they are about spending it.
@RedBlooded: What, you don’t think the 2010 Reds will outdo the 108 wins of the 1975 Reds ? Seriously, by “representative” I think people mean the “hot streak” was real and the Reds can have a winning record next year.
Like others, I don’t think the strong 2009 finish necessarily means that, but as an optimist it gives me hope.
If $1.5 M. for one year would have kept Gomes, we should have done it. We’re not going to get him for cheaper than that.
@pinson343: Dickerson is outstanding defensively in CF, but awful in RF and it shows by the numbers:
Dickerson’s UZR/150:
RF -21.5
CF 45.5
LF 21.8
I’ll agree early on in the season he was not good in LF, but after a while he wasn’t bad. RF was a disaster and it is the hardest of the three to play, IMO.
I’m not saying that the Reds have a ton of cash, but to say that the Reds are stupid because they won’t re-sign Gomes is going too far in my opinion. Last year, people disliked some of the deals which were made (Taveras, etc.) because we had equal or better in house options at a more cost-friendly price (Stubbs/Dickerson). Why does that not apply to Gomes?
The Reds already have Heisey, Francisco, Frazier, Balentein, and Dickerson in the mix for that LF spot. Why, oh why, would they spend $1.5 million on Johnny Gomes when you can make the case for any of those guys over Gomes? Not signing Gomes means the team has an added million out there.
Yes, there’s a lot that the Reds could be doing with Taveras’ 4 million. I don’t disagree. But you have to evaluate each contract individually, and spending 1.5 million on Gomes, in my estimation, isn’t a great way to spend resources.
First….Gomes doesn’t come at the exclusion of all five of those players. We have Bruce for certain; Dickerson’s a safe bet, most likely Taveras, and probably Stubbs.
That’s four spots…so Gomes would be battling Heisey, Francisco, Frazier, and Balentien.
Heisey’s not ready…he proved he wasn’t ready in AAA last year when his Louisville OPS was .789…and he was 24…..I think he will be a Red, but he’s more of a career infantry guy…future fourth/fifth outfielder.
Francisco’s not ready…can’t play the OF for starts (you think Gomes is bad? How about someone who hasn’t played there…) and he’s not good at 3b. He and Gomes had the same strike out rate at Louisville, about 25% per game. I frankly don’t know how he walked 3 times for the Reds in 25 plate appearances unless he was just terrified…he only walked 4 times in 99 plate appearances for Louisville. Yes, he hit well in those 25 plate appearances for the Reds, but you can’t get much more a smaller sample size than that.
I’m not ready to deal Francisco, but he may be an interesting risk for a team if packaged together with Taveras to be dealt….
Balentien is more an enigma for me…it’s said he plays good defense, but I didn’t see it in the games I watched–he looked lost to me, but I may not have seen enough. It’s said he’s a power hitter, but his career SLP is now .374 in 559 plate appearances. I checked his power numbers in the minors, and I found that everyone has power in Tacoma, even middle infielder Tim Hulett who can’t hit his weight with any power in his brief major league trials. Balentien should get better though.
Gomes’s three “down” years with the Jays were essentially the same as Balentien produced last year with the REds, though. His two best years have been quite good actually.
My thing…it had to have been a “scouting” decision to keep Balentien over Gomes. Statistically, Gomes looks ot have an edge. Gomes is in his prime years; Balentien is entering his prime years so Balentien could move ahead of Gomes, however, at age 24 Gomes had an OPS of .906 (OPS+ of 139); at age 24 Balentien’s OPS was 779 (OPS+ 104). The scouts must be thinking that Balentien’s performance will catch up with the skillset. (can anyone say Wily Mo Pena?)
And, we need righthanded power, and we know Gomes has that. Balentien’s still a prayer.
I think I would have signed Gomes and invited Balentien to camp as non-roster invitee….especially for exactly $1 million more…
For the record…Jocketty was sent out of St. Louis for going with scouting over sabermetric thought….
If Fay’s $1.5M is correct, then the answer is that the Reds aren’t interested in keeping Gomes, IMHO.
They do have a lot of other options in house at that position.
@brublejr: I’ve been trying to understand UZR and the other fielding statistics. Isn’t a partial season’s worth of data too small of a sample for the UZR stat?
@GregD: It probably is a little bit of a small sample size, but the numbers matched the “eye test”. It pretty well shows what people were observing when Dickerson was outstanding in CF, decent in LF, and awful in RF. I haven’t gotten into the minor league stats to compare for a larger sample size for some of the younger players.
@Steve Price: “And, we need righthanded power, and we know Gomes has that. Balentien’s still a prayer.” Indeed. And the rest of your statement makes sense too.
Fay reports Reds sign Nix to a minor league deal. Because that makes sense.
@CarolinaReds: YES INDEED !!! I always wanted a guy like Walt when he was with the Cards and think he could be great…BUT !!! he needs to be able to do what has to be done…and DUSTY HAS TO GO !!!
We drive 11 hours from NJ every year at least once to see a 3 games series as we are life long Reds fans, but we are NOT going again until Dusty is GONE. He is 100% a hired hand who is all money. We need a true Reds guy who YES gets paid, but also is a winner and can’t help himself from doing everything it takes, I also see that guy having ties to Cincinnati where you know that his heart is also in it and it removes this NASTY feeling us Reds fans live with & would bring a celabration to the town that we NEED !!! A new vibe that just has the town, fans, media, players all knowing that everything is in place not just for a few good seasons….but the start of a decade where the Reds are the team to beat. We are not that far away…but we can’t start until we get rid of this stale, non careing, hired hand, named Dusty !!! PLEASE LETS DO THIS RIGHT !!!