Loading ...The Reds have re-signed catcher Ramon Hernandez to a one-year contract, according to a major-league source.
The deal also includes a vesting option for 2011 that will become guaranteed if Hernandez appears in 120 games next season.
The Reds had declined an $8.5 million option on Hernandez and bought out his contract for $1 million.Hernandez, 33, hit .258 with five home runs and 37 RBI in 287 at-bats last season, his first with the Reds. He missed nearly two months after undergoing surgery on his left knee on July 20, appearing in only 81 games.
The knee injury also had hampered him earlier in the season, but Hernandez is expected to be 100-percent by spring training.
Hernandez, an 11-year veteran, has a career batting average/on-base/slugging line of .262/.327/.417.
Make of that what you will.
Updated: Again from Fox Sports…
The Reds have re-signed catcher Ramon Hernandez to a one-year, $3 million contract, according to a major-league source.
The deal also includes a $3.25 million vesting option for 2011 that will become guaranteed if Hernandez appears in 120 games next season.
So, if he plays 120 games next year, the Reds are on the hook for $6.25M/2 years.
FYI – reds.com’s Mark Sheldon confirmed on his blog with Ramon Hernandez.
The mantra of “pitching and defense” doesn’t apply to the catcher position? Or is that mantra history?
His bad offense from 2007-08 was worse in 2009.
He’s still a liability throwing runners out. If you dig a level deeper at baseball-reference.com, you see that his 35% CS rate is actually only 25% if you look at CS by the catcher. 7 of his 18 CS were CS by the pitcher. Only 11 were CS by Hernandez’s arm. Hanigan was at 39% CS last year.
At least it is only year, so if he is stinking it up, they can opt not to play him so his option dosen’t vest…I just wonder how much the deal was for at this point.
Can hardly wait for all the angst that will undoubtedly come from this signing. Hernandez, with all his warts, is a major league catcher which is something you couldn’t say about the others who donned the tools of ignorance when Hanigan needed a break this year. He’s 34 and that’s not old in this era of athletes. How old was Carlton Fisk when he hung ‘em up so many years ago? Mike Piazza? And those hanging in there? Jason Varitek? Jorge Posada?
The fact that my NL Champs had Bako as their second catcher speaks for itself about how sparse the talent is in this area. It will be a good thing for the Reds to challenge Hanigan and not just hand the job to him. Hernandez, batting in the 6th or 7th hole, won’t hurt the Rojos at all.
rosenthal now says that the deal is for 3mil and the option for 3.25mil. with the buyout that makes this year worth 4mil.
i agree with world that he’s much more solid a presense than tatum or miller, but for a team that claims to be watching every penny, doesn’t 4 mil for a back up catcher seems high?
seems like he’s probably going to be starting to me for that money and that seems like a mistake at his age. again.
I wouldn’t have gone more than 2 mil, but I agree for a team watching money that is a lot of money to be giving him when you can pick up that type of production for one or two mil a year. I will say he is better than having Tatum or Corky…
@WORLD: Cherry pick much? Hernandez is not in the same league as the catchers you used. I doubt he’ll be a disaster this year, but he seems to pretty clearly be on the decline.
I’ll keep my angst on hold until I see how much money he stands to get, but I doubt this is a back-breaker. I don’t love the vesting option, but I still don’t see Hanigan as a sure thing as the team’s full-time starter.
I didn’t see al’s update until after I posted, but those numbers don’t bother me too much. No sense getting into any bidding wars over aging backup catchers, and no sense saving money to sign someone who’s even older and more diminished than Henrandez.
I do not have anything against bringing Hernandez back, although he should be backing Hannigan up and I am sure it will be the other way around.
But if the numbers are the 3 million, 3.25 reported then I do not want to hear this team cry poverty, or claim they have to trade Philips/Arroyo/Harang for budget reasons. That is not a reasonable number for an older, essentially replacement level player when you already have a low cost option at the position. This team does not spend the money it has responsibly and in my mind that deprives them of any right to claim poverty as an excuse for their problems.
Ramon Hernandez is no Carlton Fisk.
Still, it’s not the worst thing we could have done. At least we have a backup first baseman.
Look around the division. There’s only one catching tandem better than us, in St. Louis. If Miguel Olivo signs for less then I’ll be mad, but for now I’m fine with it. There are soooo many horrible backup catchers out there, I’m very comfortable with this guy in that role. I like having a little offense (relative to other no-hit backup catchers) on the bench for pinch hitting as well. His defense is irrelevant if he only starts twice a week.
As usual, it’s incumbent upon Dusty to use him correctly.
Didn’t he play some pretty fair first base last year while Votto was on the DL?
Somebody help me understand how this signing improves this club? We already have a catcher that fields better, hits at least the same, and is 4 years younger who plays for near the league minimum. Hernandez has been in offensive/defensive decline for the last 3 years. All this signing does is delegate Hanigan to a backup role so now we the lesser of the two players, Hernandez, will play 2/3 of the time and pray he doesn’t reach the GP for the following year to vest. This signing weakens the lineup both defensively and offensively and further cripples the already financially strapped budget. This winter is off to a marvelous start. What’s next, a raise and a 3 year extension for Willy Taveras?
The last season Johnny Bench was primarily a catcher, he was 32! (Granted, he had LOTS of miles on his body by that point, but still, the point is that catchers break down, often earlier than other positions do.)
If Ramon is really healthy, and if he gets his power back, it’ll probably be a good signing. At his best, he is a better hitter than most catchers. I just hope, at 34, after getting his knee scoped, that he really will be good as new.
As for playing 1B, I personally don’t give him any extra credit for that. I mean, it’s nice that he did it, but when your backup 1B is batting .260/.330/.360 (or whatever he hit last year), I’m not sure that’s really better than just putting Gomes there or calling up Barker or whatever. If you’re playing someone at 1B — ever — who slugs .360 then you are a terrible terrible team.
OK, enough of that though… that’s more a Dusty rant than a Ramon rant…
If Ramon is healthy, this’ll probably be worth it.
I’m glad it isn’t just a straight-up 2-year deal!
@Tom Diesman: Ease up there, Tom! If Ramon is healthy, I don’t think it makes the Reds any worse.
If he’s toast, due to age or his knees or whatever, then we have a problem.
(That’s the thing that struck me looking at catchers’ stats from the past… Just about every one of them stuck around a year or two too long and put up some just horrible stats. I hope we won’t be paying millions for a career-ending year like that from Ramon…)
Let’s calm down on the vesting option. Hernandez has reached the 120 game milestone just twice since 2004. The odds of a repeat are poor.
Hanigan is younger, cheaper, and better. This is true. However, Hanigan’s pre-All Star (.338 .428 .408) / post-All Star (.165/.272/.229) splits show a very worn down catcher. These splits are not uncommon for a young catcher. It takes time to get used to the grind of the major league season at the catcher position.
The Reds needed a backup catcher. Hernandez, at 3 million is a bit over priced, his expected salary was $2.1 per Fangraphs. However, he is probably the best catcher on the market and can play first base as well.
Overall, I cannot really complain with the deal.
My problem with this signing is that I just don’t buy in to the value of veteran presense guys, and the Reds clearly value it very highly. It’s a philisophical difference, and I guess the Reds have a chance to prove me wrong, but…
To me, a bad fielding catcher with a sub .700 ops is not worth 3+mil more than a good fielding catacher with a .600 ops. Even if he’s a good clubhouse guy.
This goes in a long line of signings and aquisitions (like Rolen) where the reds pay for presense not production. For a team with no money, I think every dollar should be saved for production.
With money saved from ramon and rolen, we could have signed a mid level starting pitcher, instead of starting guys with era’s in the mid 5’s 37 times.
i said all along that having hernandez back at no more than $3 million would be fine with me. i stick to that. he’s a veteran presence with a pretty good bat. ryan hanigan is not ready to play everyday nor do i think he ever will be. this signing solidifies what should be a decent line-up next year.
so we can’t afford to keep our best pitcher(aroyo) or starting 2nd baseman or harang but we can afford to sign a injury prone on the decline catcher for 3 nillion a year?what this tells me is they have the money they just don’t know how to spend it
Okay Tom, if we don’t resign him whom do the Reds get as a second catcher? Also who do you use to play first if you need to give Votto a day off or he is on the DL.
don’t worry about the second year of the contract. i guarantee you that uncle walt will order dusty to not play him more than 119 times. hanigan will play at least 43 games.
i’m sure the reds had to include the second year in order to entice him to take such a massive pay cut.
@David Kaiser: as far as i can tell, no one’s actually been traded yet.
This whole “the money is limited” I think is a bunch of bull hockey. The team as stated here has spent poorly in some situtation, eaten contracts and such. The monies are there and they need to spend it.
Jocketty said the Reds are not necessarily shedding payroll:
“All of that stuff was speculation by a number of different writers,” Jocketty said. “They see that our attendance is down and so that must mean our payroll will go down. We were grouped in with clubs that are reducing payroll but we’re not in that position and hopefully won’t be.”
Jocketty denied attempts are being made to trade Phillips. He also said that the club isn’t necessarily slashing the payroll that was at $73 million in 2009.
“We really don’t know yet,” Jocketty said. “The final budget won’t be done until December and then we’ll have a better idea once season tickets sales come in. It may have to come down some but it’s too early to say. I have to approach that way but if it’s not [that way], we’ll have a nice surplus.”
Those reports last week sounded to me like some big-market writers drooling over the thought of acquiring good players for nothing from a small-market club. That’s not to say the Reds wouldn’t trade one of their big-ticket guys, but I don’t necessarily see them giving them away for salary relief.
John Fay had a similar story (that payroll wasn’t “necessarily” dropping) the day after the trade speculations. IIRC, Jocketty said that payroll would “likely” go down but numbers weren’t final yet.
Does the $3M include or exclude the $1M option buyout?
If he plays 120 games, Dusty Baker is an idiot.
C. Trent Rosencrans on Twitter: Talked to #Reds Walt Jocketty, Hernandez’s deal has the $1 mil buy-out incorporated into it. Also ‘we’re not out shopping players’
All of that is good to know.
A reasonable deal for a mediocre player, given today’s inflated salaries.
Remember, players are smarter than owners.
Food for thought: Fan Graphs Player Values for some Reds we’ve talked about (in millions in 2009).
Hernandez: 2.1
Rolen: 17
Arroyo: 8.1
Phillips: 14.6
Cordero: 6.6
What this tells me:
1) Hernandez will be slightly overpaid if he produces the same year next year, but not horribly. He is in decline though…
2) Rolen and Phillips make up a lot with their gloves.
3) Trading high on Arroyo might not be a bad idea if we could get good chips in return.
4) Even if the reds had to eat 1/2 of Cordero’s salary they’d be getting equal value (-6mil) and they may get a piece in return if they took on that much.
Can I ask a kind of random question? I’ve seen a lot of talk lately about how great Bronson is (and another camp talking about how we should trade him). But is he really? I mean, he pitches a lot of innings, and that’s nice, but I would still much rather have Cueto, Bailey, and a (reasonably healthy) Harang. All three of those guys figure to be better and worth more than Bronson. I’d even go so far as to say that after Cordero, Arroyo is the player who should most be traded. He is not going to have anything like a whole year the same as his second half. Bronson has been around for a while and he is what he his: pretty good about half the time and pretty bad the other half.
To stay on topic, I’m really not bothered by the Hernandez signing. Or, at least, I wouldn’t be if our manager didn’t have a five cent head. As it stands I think Hernandez starting w/ Hanigan as back up is better than Hanigan starting with Miller as a back up. Though, obviously, I’d prefer to swap the roles for Hanigan and Hernandez.
All this bluster and worry seems to me to be a waste of time. I believe the whole situation revolves around the man who makes out the lineup card. Do you really think Dusty Baker will get another contract? I don’t think there’s any way this will happen. You don’t need a lot of inside information to know that Bob Castellini wanted a “name” manager to bring in the fans. Well, Big Bob surely got one but the Dusty era has “accomplished” just the opposite with his skewed love for Patterson and Taveras among others. No way whatever does Mr. Baker get any more of Bob’s money after this season ends.
That being said, the Hernandez signing is really just inking someone to man the position for next year while Walt & Co. figure out who they really want to catch in 2011 and beyond. The new manager in 2011 will be the start of a new era for the Reds and next year will be just one more season taking stock of what you’ve got and what you need.
But keep buying those tickets, you hear?
The only thing wrong with this assessment is that he was pretty bad half the time and totally amazing the other half, not just pretty good.
of all the pitchers with 200ip, he had the 24th lowest era and the 10th most quality starts. there were plenty of teams that didn’t have a single pitcher as good as bronson arroyo last year.
That said, he’s a frustrating second-half pitcher, and if they could get something good for him while he’s hot(ter than usual), nothing wrong with making the team better.
$1 million of that was a sunk cost. It would probably be fairer to compare Hernandez at $2 million to the other free agents/options available. That’s probably Gregg Zaun’s going rate, and Zaun is probably a little better offensively and defensively, IMO.
It will be interesting to see what the Indians do with Shoppach.
Mr. Dafler:
I had to laugh at your post. But I laughed with you and not at you. Bear with me a bit.
Shoppach and Zaun, with all due respect to the fact that they are major leaguers and I am not, are not the brand of catcher you want to lead your team to glory. Glory, as it were, is winning the Pennant and competing in the World Series. In that regard, the astute fan understands that the receiver is very, very important to the success of a major league team in getting to this elusive Promised Land. These guys you write about are a million miles away from being the catcher of the future who will lead the Reds back to the pennant. So why chat about them at all?
I wouldn’t give either one of them a second thought. But I do understand why you are contemplating their arrival in the Queen City.
It’s spelled M-O-O-L-A-H. Big Bob doesn’t have enough lettuce, does he? He’s rich but not Steinbrenner rich. So I suppose you have to look at a grandfather like Zaun and a n’er do well like Kelly S. if you want to root for the Castellini assemblage.
Oh, where do you think that reasonably decent catcher from the Twin Cities will go when he’s afforded an opportunity to sign anywhere he so desires? Hometown Discount hah!!! Start spreading the news………….
Until Bob can spend with George and Hal and their ilk, you might as well look at the Reds as a pleasant distraction from the Ohio and Kentucky honeydew chores of lawn cutting and car washing. You can talk about Bench and Morgan and Piniella and days of glory past. I doubt even old Walt J. is going to be able to resurrect this moribund franchise.
And the shame is that it is not the fault of the good folks with the Reds. You can’t have one team spending four times more than the other and get the best talent. And don’t hold your breath waiting for the salary cap.
So Zaun, huh? Wonder if you can get Bako back?
As Scrooge said, “I’ll retire to bedlam.”
@Greg Dafler: So you mean the $1 million buyout is part of the $3 million? Are you sure? Where did you get that?
Dan: I was basing that solely on Travis G.’s comment above that says C.Trent twittered that the $1M buyout was included in the $3M.
@al: That was just last year, though. That’s not normal for Bronson. He was also not just “pretty bad” half the year, but completely atrocious. Normally, as I said, he’s good half the time, bad half the time and ends up being average to slightly-below average with lots of innings. A good 3rd or, ideally, 4th starter, but nowhere near the most valuable pitcher in the rotation.
Arroyo is worth more to the Reds than he would fetch in trade value. Pitchers who can take the ball once or twice a week, every week, for an entire season and give you league-average or better production are very rare, and extremely valuable to a team with as little margin for error as the Reds have.
Let’s say they dump Arroyo’s salary on the Yankees in exchange for a guy or two who might make the Majors one day; who pitches those 200-odd innings? Matt Maloney? Micah Owings? Chris Capuano? How many pitchers would it take to plug that hole in the rotation? How much do each of them cost? What are their stats going to be? How deep can they pitch into games?
I realize Arroyo’s not cheap, but he gives the Reds a ton of quality innings. Not many pitchers can do that.
Don’t get me wrong, I agree with bringing Hernandez back, its just the level of competence amoung major league catchers has really fallen off in the last 20 years. I can’t think of anyone with Johnny Bench type skills in mlb today.
In the 70’s and 80’s guys like Hernandez would be backups and Tatum and Miller would never get a sniff of the major leagues.
Was there anyone with Bench type skills when Bench played?
@GregD: Ted Simmons and Carlton Fisk were great (although I don’t think Simmons had the defensive reputation of the other two).
Other than that, I don’t think there was much, was there?
@Travis G.: I agree!!
On ESPN this morning they reported that each major league team is given between 80-90 million each season from TV revenue, revenue sharing and such. These monies do not include ticket sales and revenue generated by the team. So why can’t the Reds afford last year’s payroll?
@Drew Nelson: Well I don’t claim to know everything that goes into running a baseball team… but I do think they have a lot of bills in addition to player salaries!
There alot of expenses when running a team, but they generate millions in revenue from their own sources also. Look at the total attendance last year and look at ticket prices. Then you add local tv monies, merchandise sales and advertisement and such. I am not saying that our owner is making millions off the team, but like someone else said, you have to spend monies to make money and sometime you might have to take a loss every so often for the long term good.
I would make you an even bet that after all the revenues are totaled and the wizards of the accounting department perform their magic, that Castellini, the Williams Brothers and the rest are making money.
It’d be fair at $2MM, $2.5MM at the most. Beside that, it looks a decent deal while Hanigan takes over. Under no circunstances can’t find any sense on keeping Cordero and Taveras, both should be traded. Also, I think Harang and Arroyo should be kept, the rotation will be completed with Cueto, Bailey and Lehr/Maloney/Wood. After that, follow with Volquez, Cueto, Bailey, Wood and Leake.
One thing the owners don’t often account for publicly when they cry poor is unrealized gain. That is, the increased value of the franchise.
What is the gain in franchise value from year-to-year? How much more would it increase with a winning major league team? What’s the cost to fielding a winning major league team?
He won’t play 120 games.
I like this deal!
@WORLD: well of course they’re making money. i mean, let’s not be naive here.
Catching is such a key position and the farm system is thin in that area so this deal gives us two decent catchers for the next couple years.
I don’t think we could have gotten a better catcher for the $2mm extra we gave Ramon. I would like to see an even split or 60/40 for playing time between Ramon and Ryan (Hanigan getting the 60). Keeping both of these guys fresh could be very beneficial. Hernandez played way too much early on and broke down and Hanigan played way too much in the middle and wore down late. Anything they can do to never see Tatum in a Reds uniform again would be a plus.
While I don’t personally buy into the following argument, some do…
Weren’t we actually winning with Corky and Tatum behind the plate?
Yeah, and Dusty was the manager. Does that mean we should give him an extension?
You know Corky’s middle name is ‘Abraham’? They just don’t seem to go together, do they?
If you are going to slam Dusty when the team is losing, you also have to give him credit when the team is winning, don’t you?
I don’t think it’s as simple as “If the team wins, the manager must’ve done a good job, but if the team loses, he must’ve done a bad job.” We can look at individual moves and decide if we think he’s done well or not.
I’d say Dusty does get credit for finally playing Stubbs over Taveras (even after Taveras was back on the roster after his injury).
I would say he gets negative points for batting Janish 2nd all the time.
He gets no points either way for guys (Homer and Bronson especially) pitching better in the 2nd half — that was the main reason the team was so good for the last 40 games. (I’d say he might get slight negative points for pitching young guys past 100 pitches so often after the season was a lost cause.)
Personally, I give Dusty BIG negative points for not trying some more creative things at the ends of the past 2 seasons (like Phillips at SS, Sutton at 2B). We still are left to speculate whether or not Phillips is a viable option at SS. There’s no excuse for that. We should KNOW the answer by now, and it should be based on his actual play during actual games, not some reason that the manager cooked up based on ZERO information (or at least, zero recent information).
He does probably deserve positive points for running a harmonious clubhouse (though that’s hard to measure, and hard to know if the credit for that goes to the manager, the coaches, the players, or some combo of those).
Anyway, it’s a LOT more than just wins and losses.
Overall, mainly due to his stubborn unwillingness to change his opinion on seemingly ANYTHING, I think Dusty is a very bad manager. It ticks me off to think that he’s making $3.5 million and, at times, actively hurting the team’s chances to win, and also not doing things that would give us useful information for the 2010 Reds.