Loading ...Enquirer lists some of the Reds latest roster moves:
On Hernandez:
The Reds want catcher Ramon Hernandez to return for 2010, but not for the $8.5 million figure his club option calls for, according to mlb.com.
“We’re not going to pick up the option,” Reds general manager Walt Jocketty told mlb.com’s Mark Sheldon on Friday. “We have been talking with his agent and trying to negotiate a new deal. We’re hoping he comes back.”
The buyout for the Hernandez option is $1 million. Acquired last winter from the Orioles in a trade for utility player Ryan Freel and two prospects, Hernandez batted .258 with five home runs and 37 RBIs in 81 games. Only July 21, Hernandez had arthroscopic surgery to clean out his left knee and he missed 57 games. He also made 21 starts in place of Joey Votto at first base.
Should he not return to Cincinnati at a reduced price and hit the open market, Hernandez is rated a Type B free agent by Elias. If he is offered arbitration, it would mean the Reds would receive a first-round sandwich pick in the 2010 Draft as compensation.
Can you decline the option and then offer arbitration? Would you offer arbitration?
In other roster moves announced Friday, the Reds sent backup catcher Corky Miller and reserve outfielder Darnell McDonald outright to Triple-A Louisville. In 21 games for the Reds, Miller hit .179, but was a strong presence behind the plate. Reds pitchers were 13-5 with a 3.02 ERA when he caught. Miller was signed to a 2010 contract with Louisville.
Nothing moves to me…but FWIW, I’d rather have McDonald under contract than other players I could mention…
Starting pitcher Justin Lehr signed a one-year big league contract and was then sent outright to Louisville. A 32-year-old journeyman, Lehr emerged in late summer and posted a 5-3 record and 5.37 ERA in 11 starts, including one complete game. He could be a contender for the fifth spot in the rotation.
I have no problem with keeping Lehr around, but wonder how much it’s costing considering it’s a big league deal. I also wonder about keeping Lehr when we’ve got a lot of young pitchers in the system.
The Reds also activated infielder Danny Richar from the 60-day disabled list and outrighted him from the roster along with first baseman Kevin Barker. Both players elected to become free agents.
Didn’t see enough of Richar to really have any thoughts about him. Barker is a nice AAAA player who helped Louisville be competitive this year, but with the Reds 40 man issues and the needs for spots on the Louisville roster, this was easy to foresee.
The Reds’ 40-man roster currently stands at 39 players with three more still on the 60-day DL.
The Reds still have some 40 man issues to decide in the next few weeks.
two thoughts:
1. Hernandez should be offered arbitration. The Reds would almost certainly win and if he declines arbitration, then we get a sandwich pick, which i ultimately believe would benefit us more than re-signing Hernandez at 3 or 4 million.
2. I like the move with Lehr. He makes a decent spot starter and would also, I believe, be effective in long relief. His real value, though, is as a mentor to the young pitchers. I believe he has a future as a pitching coach. Don’t forget Lehr was the one who taught Homer the split-fingered pitch, which evidently was at least partly the reason for his turnaround.
Hernandez – maybe for two or three million, tops. I think that is ideal.
The rest? meh. Call me, Walt, when you get rid of Taveras.
Glad they got Lehr to resign…Good SP Depth move.
W/ Alonso & Frazier slotted for AAA LOU…Richar & Baker were no longer needed in the system. Hopefully, Both will get chances elsewhere.
Hernandez’s deal is a little more tricky. Yes, his type B status makes it tempting to offer ARB. But if he’s likely to get anything over $3M…I’d rather just wait & get a non-tender candidate to pair w/ Hanigan; like Dioner Navarro or Kelly Shoppach at lesser coin.
There is no way I offer Hernandez arbitration. If they want to bring him back cheap that is fine with me, but I would hate to see them have to pay too much in arbitration when there are perfectly good other backups out there for less money.
I like bringing Lehr back, but I was hoping for a minor league deal. Richar and Barker were forgone conclusions. McDonald as a minor league player is fine, as long as he doesn’t make the big club over a guy like Stubbs, Heisey, or Dickerson. I thought they had enough depth in the OF at L’Ville unless they are planning for either Heisey or Fransisco making the big club.
If you offer arbitration, isn’t there a rule that you can’t give a guy a pay cut of more than 20% or something like that?
If that’s the case, I think there’s no way we can offer him arbitration. I mean, if we KNEW he’d decline it, then I agree the sandwich pick would be nice. But if the lowest we can offer him is $6.4 million (which is $8 million minus 20%), that’s too dangerous. He’ll just accept arbitration and then we’ll have him for WAY too much money.
Don’t quote me on the arbitration rules, but I think it’s something like that — there’s a limit on the percentage pay cut you can offer, I’m pretty sure.
I agree, try to keep Hernandez but at a much lower salary. Richar and Barker probably will get better opportunities elsewhere. I’ve seen all I want to of Darnell and I like having Lehr around. He’s not all that impressive but somehow he keeps the team in the games he starts…smoke and mirrors I guess.
@Dan: i didn’t know that. if that’s indeed the case, then no way do i offer him arbitration either.
All the roster moves are OK with me, they’re kind of obvious.
As far as arbitration for Hernandez goes, if the 20% rule cited by Dave is correct, forget it. Dave admits he’s not sure about the exact number, but a sensible arbitration offer would cut his salary by at least 75%.
I can’t imagine cutting my salary by 75% and I would still be making more than 95% of the population. Something just isn’t right at the most basic level….
I don’t hold any ill will toward Hernandez’s salary demands…He’s still better than most MLB C’s…But IMO, he’s just not worth the coin in CIN (due to their limited pay-roll flexibility).
If he’s willing to take a short incentive laden deal (1-2yrs). I’d be all for bringing him back. He’s still a descent hitter, for a C.
If he’s not willing to eat his pride a bit…See Ya!
I’m sure there will be a BUNCH of guys chomping at the bit to get a deal done. I expect to see a boat load of cast-offs over the next few weeks….and a long drawn out process of waiting & low-balling from the owners (All winter long).
The economic landscape is not as scary as last off-season…But the known is not too pretty either. The Owners will play that card til the very end & win. By JAN…We could be looking at large #’s agents in “PANIC MODE”.
There is a 20% rule, but it does not apply to free agents offered arbitration. I found detailed rules on the arbitration process here.
I think that would still be a pretty high risk manuever because Hernandez would probably accept, and his final salary would likely be at least half the $8M he made last year. No thanks.
I’m also having problems with the 40-man roster math that the Enquirer (and other media outlets.) I believe that the Reds are at 39 including the three players on the 60-day DL. By my count, and looking at the big board, the Reds finished the season with 40 players on the 40-man + 4 players on the 60-day DL for a total of 44 players.
5 players (Barker, McDonald, Lehr, Miller, and Richar) have all been removed from the 40-man. 44-5=39 including the three 60-day DL players.
39 is still an issue, since there are at least 4 players the Reds need to add to the 40-man to prevent losing in the Rule V draft (Wood, Valaika, Heisey, & Ondrusek).
The 39 does include free agent Kip Wells, soon to have his option declined Ramon Hernandez, 7 outfielders on the ML roster (easy choice to drop Taveras, IMO.) That’s an easy drop to 36 to add the 4 players.
Greg, the article linked at the top also states that the Reds are at 39 + 3 (last line of article).
That’s the article I was referring to. The Enquirer says 39 + 3, but it looks to me like the roster is sitting at 36 + 3.
Re-reading that, I guess they could be saying that 3 of the 39 are on the DL. Just isn’t worded well to my eyes (because those on the 60-day DL don’t count towards the 40-man roster.) In any event, it is certainly true that they are not done with the roster trimming.
Thanks, Greg. I found the same thing. I never knew that, but I guess the 20% pay cut rule is just for players with 3 to 5 years of experience — they haven’t reached free agency yet, but they’ve reached the arbitration stage.
There’s no limit to how much of a pay cut we could offer Ramon if we offer him arbitration… but there’s always the danger that if we offer too low the Reds will lose the case!
Offering him arbitration is too big a risk, in my opinion.
I also don’t think even a 2-year contract is a good idea. (He’s a catcher, he’s almost 34, and he’s coming off knee surgery.) An affordable one-year deal, I’d be OK with… but we need to realize that while he’s OK, he’s not that good. There are others out there.
Personally, I’d prefer someone younger who’s likely to hit a little more.
Some catchers are DONE at age 34. It happens. That’s a grueling position to play.
I’m with BroadwayDave on this, though I wouldn’t go as high as offering him 4 million, or even 3.
There’s no way that Hernandez is going to get much in arbitration, win or lose, so I don’t see that’s it’s such a big risk. And right now the number 2 catcher in our organization is Corky Miller. That seems a bigger risk.
(I haven’t checked on who the available free agent catchers might be.)
Here’s the current list of free agent catchers:
Catchers
Eliezer Alfonzo (31)
Brad Ausmus (41)
Paul Bako (38)
Rod Barajas (34) – Type B
Josh Bard (32)
Michael Barrett (33)
Henry Blanco (38)
Ramon Castro (34)
Chris Coste (37)
Sal Fasano (38)
Toby Hall (34)
Michel Hernandez (31)
Ramon Hernandez (34) – $8.5MM club option with a $1MM buyout – Type B
Jason Kendall (36) – Type B
Jason LaRue (36)
Victor Martinez (31) – $7.7MM club option with a $250K buyout – Type A
Chad Moeller (35)
Bengie Molina (35) – Type A
Jose Molina (35)
Miguel Olivo (31) – Type B
Mike Redmond (39)
Ivan Rodriguez (38) – Type B
Brian Schneider (33)
Yorvit Torrealba (31) – Type B
Matt Treanor (34)
Javier Valentin (34)
Jason Varitek (38) – $5MM club/$3MM player option plus incentives – Type B
Vance Wilson (37)
Gregg Zaun (39) – $2MM club option with a $500K buyout; Zaun can void option
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2008/12/2010-mlb-free-a.html
Free agency is not the only answer, you know. I’d like to find a way to get someone YOUNGER than this group, if possible. Let’s explore trades w/ teams that have more than enough young catching. (Texas? Cleveland?)
If we do re-sign Ramon, I’ll be OK with it as long as it’s only for ONE year. Catchers break down in their mid-30’s. Let’s not be on the hook for ANOTHER bad contract.
@Dan: agreed. one and done.
question:
how can lehr be signed to a major league contract and then be moved off the 40 man? i don’t understand the logistics of this.
@Greg Dafler: Richar was on 60 Day, so him being outrighted and going FA does not affect roster. Lehr was outrighted and then resigned to a major league contract so he is still on the 40 man the way I read it. Still at 40 on the 40 man plus the 3 on the 60 day DL. Miller outrighed and signs minor league deal, then Barker and McDonald outrighted. That clears 3 spots. The way I see it the roster is now at 37 with 3 still on the 60 Day DL.
I saw a PDF of the updated 40-man roster sent Friday to the media by Rob Butcher, after all the moves Tom cited, and Lehr was not listed on it. I’m not sure how that works exactly, but I’ve got to think that he must clear waivers before he’s assigned to Louisville.
That updated 40-man roster showed 39 players, FWIW.
The 40-man roster listed on the the team’s Web site also shows 39 players, and Lehr’s not among them.
Who thinks that the Reds could go after Pedro Feliz. The Phillies have decided not to pick up his option. He could be a decent shortstop
A 34-year old third baseman with a career .293 OBP… to play SS? Uhh… no thanks.
Lehr’s situation is unique. I’m guessing that series of transactions keep him off the 40-man since he was outrighted from the roster. I believe that does mean he passed through waivers.
This may be a shrewd move to keep Lehr in the organization and let him compete for Volquez’s spot in spring trainng. Since you can’t have players on the 60-day DL during the rule V draft, Volquez has to be activated and put on the 40-man roster this month. Lehr’s move allows them to keep a potential 5th starter in the organization. If he wins the jobin spring training, Volquez goes on the 60-day DL and Lehr can take his spot.
I really think the Reds are better off with Corky Miller at the major league minimum than Ramon Hernandez. I also completely disagree with Fay’s assertion that Hanigan has not shown enough offensively.
Is Hannigan Johnny Bench? No, but his numbers are really fine for a guy who will be getting 300 at bats. He has virtually no power, but gets on base well. He is better than Hernandez at everything, except power, and Hernandez is not exactly Babe Ruth.
I’d much rather have Zaun split time with Hanigan for the 2-3 million it would cost to keep Hernandez.
We’ve talked a lot about Hernandez’ age (34), but Zaun is 39. I like Zaun, and know that he would be part time, but that is still an awful lot of gray to offer a contract to.
Yeah, I like Zaun a lot (switch hitter w/ a career .344 OBP – pretty good for a catcher), but at age almost-39 he’s GOT to be done soon, and he might already be done.
As I’ve looked at the stats of fairly good catchers from the recent past, it’s really been striking that almost all of them stuck around a year or two too long, and almost all of them just dropped off a cliff — usually after a perfectly season too. They almost all have a season or two of just TERRIBLE stats at the tail ends of their careers. Sometimes it happens at age 34, or 36, or occasionally as much as 40 (Benito Santiago comes to mind, maybe Zaun also), but it eventually happened to all of them.
If the Reds insist on having a “veteran catcher” (stupid in my opinion — I want a GOOD catcher not necessarily a VETERAN catcher!) they run the risk of paying someone for one of those horrible end-of-career years.
Better to let them walk a year too early than a year too late.
^^oops… I meant to say “usually after a perfectly GOOD season…”
@Dave E.: By the way, I’m with Dave E. above too. I think Hanigan is pretty darn good, and I’d be perfectly happy to see him get 300-450 plate appearances for this team next year. He’s good at the two most important things for a catcher, I think — defense, and getting on base.
Viewing Hanigan as “only a backup” is stupid and closed-minded. I know his RBI’s were terrible, and I know he finished badly, but overall I like his game a lot. He’s not perfect, but we could do a LOT worse.
And, oh yeah, Hanigan makes the minimum! That’s important since we’ll be paying 4 good-but-not-great guys over $10 million each this year…
If that is the case on the rule V, they have a lot of room to clear to make room for the prospects that have to be protected…
Just wanted to say that I am new to this site, I love the Reds, and this is a test post to see if I know what I am doing.
I don’t want Hernandez on the roster. If he’s on it, Dusty will start him. And if somehow he isn’t starting, then he’ll complain and be a cancer like he was in Baltimore. I know that sounds harsh; I kind of appreciated him last year for his willingness to help out at 1B. But he just doesn’t belong on this team.
Well, looks as if the Rays picked up Ramon Ramirez off the waiver wire…Too bad…I like his grit. He may not have had the best stuff…but he knew how to pitch fearlessly.
So, That’s another open spot on the 40. And I’d expect to here of a few more, w/in days/weeks.
SITE INFO: (I HAVE NO IDEA HOW TO ADD THE LINK! SORRY – CUT & PASTE!!)
http://tampabay.rays.mlb.com/news/press_releases/press_release.jsp?ymd=20091109&content_id=7642946&vkey=pr_tb&fext=.jsp&c_id=tb
^^ did it for me…DUH!
Yeh I liked Ramirez too. But with the 40 man roster squeeze, I can’t say we should have held on to him.
Welcome aboard !!!
@pinson343: As long as Willie is taking up a roster spot, I really hate have the 40 man squeeze costing us pitching for nothing.