Sultan of Swaff: And he should have at least 3 more gold gloves. Ozzie Smith was coasting on reputation.Barry was the most complete player I’ve ever seen.
Pfffft. Barry couldn’t start/turn the double play efficiently enough, and he tried too much to make impossible plays ending up with an error. Good hitter. Good leader. Great defensive shortstop is not what I saw with my Red loving eyes.
Really? FIRST BALLOT? The best of the best, all-time?
I don’t know…
Could someone drum up a list of all the first-balloters of all-time? I have a feeling Barry Larkin isn’t going to really fit into the elite caliber of that list.
@Dan: To me he played the game a sense of class and integrity (one team in the free agent era!) that honored baseball and he unquestionably performed at or above any possible standard created for induction. Send him in right now.
First of all, I think it silly to say a player deserves to be in, but not on the first ballot. Second, Barry is, when you look at the numbers, Barry is pretty clearly in the very top tier of shortstops ever (retired division). Honus Wagner seems to be obviously number 1 to me, but after that you can make arguments. There’s Ripken, Ozzie, and Larkin and a few others, If you press me, I’d honestly take Larkin over any of them bu Wagner. Lots more offense than Ozzie (no, Ozzie’s D does not make up for the 29 point gap in OPS+). Much better glove than Ripken. He really was a very complete player. The only real knock on him is that he was hurt a lot. That’s legit, but when he was on the field, there really wasn’t anyone better at short since about WWI. That says first ballot, no doubt to me, though, I am afraid the voters won’t agree.
He is a top 5 SS of all-time. No issues with character or suspected of any kind of enhanced performance in an era full of it. If he isn’t a first ballot HOF’er in from this generation I don’t know who is.
Bill James has a program that says Larkin is one of the five most complete players of all time, and is one of the five “smartest” players of all time. Smartest meaning making few outs on the bases, few errors, high OBP…smart baseball moves.
James also ranks Larkin as one of the five greatest shortstops ever, and that includes the present guys.
It would have been nice if he had gotten to something like 3000 hits or finished with a .300 career batting average, then there would be little discussion about first ballot or second ballot.
While I agree with the notion that there’s not really a difference in 1st or 2nd ballot HOFers, some baseball traditionalist writers reserve the first ballot for players such as Aaron, Ruth, Cobb whose numbers greatly outshine other players.
It’s a rather foolish notion…in the beginning when there were more players than slots (since the HOF was empty) it made sense. Now, that notion is only someone bringing attention to themselves.
Larkin was well-liked by the press which helps…he was most underrated here in Cincinnati than other places.
Larkin has been underrated his whole career. At first he was overshadowed by Ozzie Smith and his defense. Then he was overshadowed by the new generation SS of like Alex Rodriguez and their offense. He has always been a complete player and if he doesn’t get in 1st ballot it is because some sports writers refuse to put anybody in 1st ballot.
Barry should get into the HOF with no problem, but I’m afraid it will take a few years. The problem is that the balloters go so much by career totals – I don’t mean OBP or OPS (that would help him), I mean total hits, HRs, RBIs. Here is where his injury history hurts him. Also for career HRs and RBIs, some writers will say not so great by the new standard for SSs.
I disagree with an above criticism of his defense. It did decline in his later years, but in his youth his range and smoothness were comparable to anyone’s. And yes he did deserve more than 3 gold gloves, the last 2 that Ozzie won were a joke.
If Barry doesn’t get in and then Vizquel does, I’ll go a little crazy.
I’ll be fine if he’s voted in, even first ballot, but I’ll be damned if I’m going to listen to his self serving, self promotional 90 minute acceptance speech.
This also brings us back to the “intangibles” argument, whick Larkin possessed. He was a great base runner, great “handler” of the bat, great bunter, team and clubhouse leader, and just generally well liked by players, media and fans alike. Combine this with his tangible skills; hitting, fielding, speed and power, and you’ve got yourself a hall of famer. I see no reason he shouldn’t be a first ballot HoF.
shane: I’ll be fine if he’s voted in, even first ballot, but I’ll be damned if I’m going to listen to his self serving, self promotional 90 minute acceptance speech.
I’m sorry, are you talking about Barry Larkin or Ricky Henderson here?
@RiverCity Redleg: Great baserunning and great bunting are “tangibles” in my book. I do remember Barry going from 1st to 3rd on a wild pitch when the catcher sort of loafed after it, and I thought it was the coolest thing ever. Really made the catcher look like a dope, which I thought was perfect.
In terms of clubhouse leadership though… really? Didn’t he supposedly have a hand in undercutting McKeon and getting him run out of town?
I’m not saying he isn’t HOF-worthy. I’m just saying I don’t remember him being revered for great leadership. I thought he was seen as aloof, if anything, and if that McKeon story is true that’s downright crappy.
Matt WI: I’m sorry, are you talking about Barry Larkin or Ricky Henderson here?
No, He’s talking about Barry. I liked him much better with a bat in his hand instead of a microphone. At least Rickey entertained me, Barry just grates me.
I often said during the early 90’s that if I was starting a baseball team not knowing what type of players I was going to be able to acquire, I would start with Larkin. He could be put almost anywhere in a lineup, played a prime position, had all the tools, and was never a clubhouse distraction. He should be in Cooperstown, but I don’t know when that will happen. I don’t think anyone wants to put him behind a podium again for a long while…..
Larkin was the guy Bowden went to for info about the team, including McKeon. Remember, the press liked McKeon because he wasn’t afraid to throw players under the bus (see Konerko, see Tomko…). Sparky used to go to Rose and Bench. The difference was the team winning in the 70’s, so it was spun a different way.
McKeon had lost control of the team…we remember the 99 wins, but McKeon complained about almost everything the Reds did….even if he was the lovable ol’ grampa. He spent more time smoking cigars and entertaining his cronies and the press than managing his team.
As for counting stats…don’t get fooled…Larkin didn’t hit ‘milestones’ but, again, the press or our memories have messed us up. I believe he’s 13th in all-time games played at shorstop.
True, its not really much of a distraction when the captain of the team is begging to be traded. That really pumps the rest of the team up and makes them want to play their best.
shane: True, its not really much of a distraction when the captain of the team is begging to be traded. That really pumps the rest of the team up and makes them want to play their best.
I actually prefaced my comment by saying “in the early 90’s”, but point taken.
He also stood up for the fans and suggested to the team that they spend money to have a quality team …this came after Bowden told the fans to buy more season tickets and the Reds would go get some players…they went and got Greg Vaughn and we won 96 games…
I don’t remember now what led up to it, but I definitely remember Marty ranting about how Larkin didn’t deserve to wear the captain’s “C.” (Maybe Larkin said he didn’t want to wear it?)
Yes Larkin wore an “H” patch on his cap (or somewhere) after Harris was traded.
Toward the end of his career, the guy spoke his mind, especially when the Reds were in contention and did not make a move (at least not a good one) in 2002.
I liked the way he would teach (try to, anyway) young players how to play SS, even when they were competing for his job. He took Felipe Lopez under his wing, for example. Ozzie Smith was not so kind to Royce Clayton, to say the least. Yet Ozzie is associated with the smily face.
Overall I think Larkin was a class act. Back when Marge Schott was embarrassing the Reds, reporters would try to get Larkin to dump on her, hoping to get a story. He refused to say anything negative about her, and defended her more than once. He liked it that she brought in some good free agent players.
(Too bad she and Bowden ruined our farm system, but that’s another story.)
pinson343: Overall I think Larkin was a class act. Back when Marge Schott was embarrassing the Reds, reporters would try to get Larkin to dump on her, hoping to get a story. He refused to say anything negative about her, and defended her more than once. He liked it that she brought in some good free agent players. (Too bad she and Bowden ruined our farm system, but that’s another story.)
I do remember that. Reporters would throw out some of Marge’s quotes and wait for Barry’s reaction.
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And he should have at least 3 more gold gloves. Ozzie Smith was coasting on reputation.
Barry was the most complete player I’ve ever seen.
You are absolutely correct on both accounts.
Amen, amen. First ballot, no question. Here’s to number 11.
Pfffft. Barry couldn’t start/turn the double play efficiently enough, and he tried too much to make impossible plays ending up with an error. Good hitter. Good leader. Great defensive shortstop is not what I saw with my Red loving eyes.
Really? FIRST BALLOT? The best of the best, all-time?
I don’t know…
Could someone drum up a list of all the first-balloters of all-time? I have a feeling Barry Larkin isn’t going to really fit into the elite caliber of that list.
HOFer, yes. I just don’t know about first ballot.
Trivia: What was Larkin’s FIRST number that he wore with the Reds? And who was wearing #11 at the time?
@Dan: To me he played the game a sense of class and integrity (one team in the free agent era!) that honored baseball and he unquestionably performed at or above any possible standard created for induction. Send him in right now.
First of all, I think it silly to say a player deserves to be in, but not on the first ballot. Second, Barry is, when you look at the numbers, Barry is pretty clearly in the very top tier of shortstops ever (retired division). Honus Wagner seems to be obviously number 1 to me, but after that you can make arguments. There’s Ripken, Ozzie, and Larkin and a few others, If you press me, I’d honestly take Larkin over any of them bu Wagner. Lots more offense than Ozzie (no, Ozzie’s D does not make up for the 29 point gap in OPS+). Much better glove than Ripken. He really was a very complete player. The only real knock on him is that he was hurt a lot. That’s legit, but when he was on the field, there really wasn’t anyone better at short since about WWI. That says first ballot, no doubt to me, though, I am afraid the voters won’t agree.
He is a top 5 SS of all-time. No issues with character or suspected of any kind of enhanced performance in an era full of it. If he isn’t a first ballot HOF’er in from this generation I don’t know who is.
Bill James has a program that says Larkin is one of the five most complete players of all time, and is one of the five “smartest” players of all time. Smartest meaning making few outs on the bases, few errors, high OBP…smart baseball moves.
James also ranks Larkin as one of the five greatest shortstops ever, and that includes the present guys.
It would have been nice if he had gotten to something like 3000 hits or finished with a .300 career batting average, then there would be little discussion about first ballot or second ballot.
While I agree with the notion that there’s not really a difference in 1st or 2nd ballot HOFers, some baseball traditionalist writers reserve the first ballot for players such as Aaron, Ruth, Cobb whose numbers greatly outshine other players.
It’s a rather foolish notion…in the beginning when there were more players than slots (since the HOF was empty) it made sense. Now, that notion is only someone bringing attention to themselves.
Larkin was well-liked by the press which helps…he was most underrated here in Cincinnati than other places.
Larkin has been underrated his whole career. At first he was overshadowed by Ozzie Smith and his defense. Then he was overshadowed by the new generation SS of like Alex Rodriguez and their offense. He has always been a complete player and if he doesn’t get in 1st ballot it is because some sports writers refuse to put anybody in 1st ballot.
Barry should get into the HOF with no problem, but I’m afraid it will take a few years. The problem is that the balloters go so much by career totals – I don’t mean OBP or OPS (that would help him), I mean total hits, HRs, RBIs. Here is where his injury history hurts him. Also for career HRs and RBIs, some writers will say not so great by the new standard for SSs.
I disagree with an above criticism of his defense. It did decline in his later years, but in his youth his range and smoothness were comparable to anyone’s. And yes he did deserve more than 3 gold gloves, the last 2 that Ozzie won were a joke.
If Barry doesn’t get in and then Vizquel does, I’ll go a little crazy.
I’ll be fine if he’s voted in, even first ballot, but I’ll be damned if I’m going to listen to his self serving, self promotional 90 minute acceptance speech.
This also brings us back to the “intangibles” argument, whick Larkin possessed. He was a great base runner, great “handler” of the bat, great bunter, team and clubhouse leader, and just generally well liked by players, media and fans alike. Combine this with his tangible skills; hitting, fielding, speed and power, and you’ve got yourself a hall of famer. I see no reason he shouldn’t be a first ballot HoF.
I’m sorry, are you talking about Barry Larkin or Ricky Henderson here?
@RiverCity Redleg: Great baserunning and great bunting are “tangibles” in my book. I do remember Barry going from 1st to 3rd on a wild pitch when the catcher sort of loafed after it, and I thought it was the coolest thing ever. Really made the catcher look like a dope, which I thought was perfect.
In terms of clubhouse leadership though… really? Didn’t he supposedly have a hand in undercutting McKeon and getting him run out of town?
I’m not saying he isn’t HOF-worthy. I’m just saying I don’t remember him being revered for great leadership. I thought he was seen as aloof, if anything, and if that McKeon story is true that’s downright crappy.
No, He’s talking about Barry. I liked him much better with a bat in his hand instead of a microphone. At least Rickey entertained me, Barry just grates me.
I often said during the early 90’s that if I was starting a baseball team not knowing what type of players I was going to be able to acquire, I would start with Larkin. He could be put almost anywhere in a lineup, played a prime position, had all the tools, and was never a clubhouse distraction. He should be in Cooperstown, but I don’t know when that will happen. I don’t think anyone wants to put him behind a podium again for a long while…..
Being book-ended in his career by Ozzie Smith on one side and the A-Rod era Shortstops on the other will hurt his chances.
Larkin was known for exceptional leadership.
Larkin was the guy Bowden went to for info about the team, including McKeon. Remember, the press liked McKeon because he wasn’t afraid to throw players under the bus (see Konerko, see Tomko…). Sparky used to go to Rose and Bench. The difference was the team winning in the 70’s, so it was spun a different way.
McKeon had lost control of the team…we remember the 99 wins, but McKeon complained about almost everything the Reds did….even if he was the lovable ol’ grampa. He spent more time smoking cigars and entertaining his cronies and the press than managing his team.
As for counting stats…don’t get fooled…Larkin didn’t hit ‘milestones’ but, again, the press or our memories have messed us up. I believe he’s 13th in all-time games played at shorstop.
One of the alltime best. Too bad he got involved in team politics with Bowden or else he’d still be with the Reds in some capacity, maybe as manager.
Hitting those milestones, however arbitrary, can make the difference in first ballot voting.
True, its not really much of a distraction when the captain of the team is begging to be traded. That really pumps the rest of the team up and makes them want to play their best.
I actually prefaced my comment by saying “in the early 90’s”, but point taken.
Ok, pertaining to “the early 90’s”, I agree with you.
Begging to be traded? he declined to be traded…
He also stood up for the fans and suggested to the team that they spend money to have a quality team …this came after Bowden told the fans to buy more season tickets and the Reds would go get some players…they went and got Greg Vaughn and we won 96 games…
He begged to be traded several times. Look it up
I don’t remember now what led up to it, but I definitely remember Marty ranting about how Larkin didn’t deserve to wear the captain’s “C.” (Maybe Larkin said he didn’t want to wear it?)
Anyone remember this?
That’s when the Reds (rightly) traded Lenny Harris away to the Mets. It was the right move by the Reds.
From what I could tell, Larkin was fed up by the Reds not investing in the team. Harris wasn’t the future and should’ve been dealt.
It was the wrong time to complain about Larkin but his thoughts about management not investing in the team were right…and still holds true today.
Yes Larkin wore an “H” patch on his cap (or somewhere) after Harris was traded.
Toward the end of his career, the guy spoke his mind, especially when the Reds were in contention and did not make a move (at least not a good one) in 2002.
I liked the way he would teach (try to, anyway) young players how to play SS, even when they were competing for his job. He took Felipe Lopez under his wing, for example. Ozzie Smith was not so kind to Royce Clayton, to say the least. Yet Ozzie is associated with the smily face.
Overall I think Larkin was a class act. Back when Marge Schott was embarrassing the Reds, reporters would try to get Larkin to dump on her, hoping to get a story. He refused to say anything negative about her, and defended her more than once. He liked it that she brought in some good free agent players.
(Too bad she and Bowden ruined our farm system, but that’s another story.)
I do remember that. Reporters would throw out some of Marge’s quotes and wait for Barry’s reaction.
except for those “black eye” statements maybe