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From the Providence Journal:
The Cincinnati Reds are talking to the Blue Jays about the possibility of acquiring infielder Scott Rolen in exchange for minor-league prospect Yonder Alonso. The first baseman is a product of the University of Miami and carries a big bat. He was the Reds’ first pick (seventh overall) in the 2008 draft.
I’m not saying I’m sold on Alonso and I’m not saying he’s untouchable, but for a 3B that’ll be 35 before Opening Day next season that’s owed $11M and has recently had trouble staying healthy?
This deal would convince me that Jocketty has gone senile.
That would be pure idiocy.
There were Seattle and Toronto scouts in Dayton last night to watch Sulbaran pitch. They identified themselves because it rained during the game and they put their respective teams jackets on.
But Chris, you didn’t say it couldn’t happen…
This is the first rumor I have EVER heard originate from the Providence Journal, so I’m going to assume (AND HOPE!!) that this is bogus.
If this gets even a moment of serious consideration, Walt and his cronies need to hang it up NOW.
If that happens, I’m becoming a Cardinals fan w/ a strong interest in Joey Votto. (Kind of the opposite of what I am now.)
No one is untouchable. But Alonso is the kind of chip one uses
when you get someone great back, or you are making a push for the playoffs
and he’s the primary piece in getting Cliff Lee or Roy Halladay.
This rumor is true…and did I mention I am dating Megan Fox?
BTW, I still am unhappy they didn’t take Gordon Beckham, who is already up with the White Sox and doing really well.
This is bull. No way this is happening, unless there’s other components involved (and not just Rolen-Scutaro for Alonso).
I am sure it is true.
Reds – “What do you want for Scott Rolen?”
Toronto – “We wouild sure like to have Yonder Alonso.”
Reds – “What three other players are you including?”
There, they are talking about a trade for Rolen which includes Alonso.
I hope you’re all correct…but this is the same front office that signed Willy Taveras for TWO YEARS!
And don’t forget that I bet they think Scott Rolen “plays the game the right way.”
He does…, but that don’t make it a good trade.
I think that Alonso if definitely worth floating as a trade piece, but definitely not for just Rolen. If there has to be a deal for Rolen, I would like to see maybe Rios or Lind as part of a deal. Then I think you can talk about making Alonso as part of it. Of course, you need to make Eddie E as part of it to make room for Rolen and to dump some salary. If you can get Rios or Lind, I think that you can put in a 2nd tier minor league prospect from our system as part of the package. Maybe even Drew Stubbs? You do have to give to get.
Please bring Wayne Krivsky back before Jocketty destroys this organization. No more veteran players. Name one decent veteran player this organization has picked up. The Reds have no need for Scott Rolen. He does not fill a need.
Name one decent veteran player this organization has picked up.
Arthur Rhodes
I don’t understand the complaining. Last time Jocketty traded for Rolen, it worked out just fine.
July 29, 2002: Traded by the Philadelphia Phillies with Doug Nickle and cash to the St. Louis Cardinals for Placido Polanco, Bud Smith and Mike Timlin.
Coming soon to GABP: Chuck Finley, Jeff Fassero, Jamey Wright, Bret Tomko, Sterling Hitchcock, Ray King, Jason Marquis, Tony Womack!, (fast) Brian Hunter, (fast) Roger Cedeno, Larry Walker, Mark Mulder, Tim Hummel(!), Larry Bigbie, Aaron Miles, and Jeff Weaver.
Doesn’t it seem odd that the team is angling to replace its third-best hitter? Warts and all, EE is FAR from the biggest problem on this team.
Can Larry Walker still play the outfield?
You know what this trade would be like? The Pirates’ trade for Matt Morris. It’d be about that dumb.
Kenny Lofton is a free agent isn’t he?
I’m going to cut and paste these numbers from a comment from mlbtraderumors.com:
Combined stats from 2006 to 2008:
Rolen
At Bats – 1321
Runs – 207
Hits – 365
Doubles – 102
Triples – 6
Home Runs – 41
RBI – 203
BA – .276
OBP – .352
SLG – .456
OPS – .808
Edwin E
At Bats – 1414
Runs – 201
Hits – 384
Doubles – 87
Triples – 3
Home Runs – 57
RBI – 216
BA – .272
OBP – .351
SLG – .458
OPS – .809
Posted by: ctownboy | July 30, 2009 at 11:40 AM
I would take Lofton over Taveras in a heartbeat.
And yes, EE is not the biggest problem. the biggest problem are the folks in the front office that think picking up Rolen makes any sense for this team right now.
I would assume Toronto would help with Rolen’s salary.
1:39pm: A Ken Rosenthal/Jon Paul Morosi source says the Reds-Rolen talks are “going nowhere.” The writers suggest a Halladay trade could help move things along.
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/
The Rosenthal/Morosi report says: “The Reds’ talks with the Blue Jays about third baseman Scott Rolen have failed to progress.
Asked to characterize the negotiations, one source said, “Going nowhere. Stuck. Impasse.”
The impasse could break if the Jays trade Roy Halladay. At that point, they would concede the 2010 season and likely move Rolen and other veterans.”
We would not be getting Halladay, just to be clear (not that he’d even be willing to waive his no-trade clause to come here).
I thought Toronto had already given up on 2010.
And if WJ hasn’t given up on 2010 at this point, he is certifiably insane.
2:00pm: CBSSports’ Danny Knobler says the Jays would get Edwin Encarnacion and others, if this does get done. The sticking point appears to be how much of Rolen’s remaining $15MM the Jays would assume.
It can’t be EE and Yonder…can it? Getting Scott Rolen just makes absolutely no sense…
I really don’t understand this trade at all…I really don’t like EE but giving up him and prospects for a guy who can only help for a year(next year) is a bad idea long term.
I honestly think it’s (1) Castellini and Jockerty know Rolen and forget his age and injury history; and (2) they believe fans will say, “I’ve heard of that guy – he’s good!” and buy tickets.
This is the kind of deal that can set a team back. Next year, they would have around $50M tied up in Rolen, Taveras, Arroyo, Cordero, and Harang – with conceivably very little to show for it. (Cordero, I expect to be good – only for 60 IP).
The stats Travis posted say Rolen and EE are the same guy. Might as well just give them Alonso and not get anything in return.
Travis’ stats really say it all. Giving up a prospect and EE for an older 3B who will make a few less errors a year (if he plays) appears to be a dumb move. Please just don’t make moves so can you can say you have done so!
Chris: they way things are going Cordero may only be good for about 30 innings next year.
Any chance this team has such a disasterous second half that they lose 100 games?
In the last 2 games to the Padres, the Reds got dominated. I repeat: dominated by the Padres, who came in having won 4 games all month.
To lose exactly 100 games, the Reds would have to go 17-44 the rest of the way. Right now that looks very possible, in fact they might not win 17 more.
Riccardi said that if Halladay doesn’t get moved he likely won’t move any of the veterans and attempt to compete for the division next year.
So in that case I doubt the Rolen deal will happen until maybe the offseason.
On another note it could be worse. The Pirates have traded more players within the division once again acting as the AAA team for the Cubs. WHY TRADE PLAYERS WITHIN THE DIVISION, it absolutely makes no sense.
Being a Pirate fan must be excrutiating, I am hoping we can avoid that type of fate.
Rolen, who may not be the 3B he was five years ago, still is a well above average fielder. EE is one of the worst rated fielders in the league. Merely looking at those offensive statistics is misleading.
You also shouldn’t underestimate the positive leadership role that the Reds desperately need in their clubhouse. Think Greg Vaughn in 1999. As far as I can tell EE is utterly useless, probably counterproductive, in that regard.
I’ll want to wait and see the details if we pull off a trade that is basically EE for SR, but in general, I like the idea. It obviously would have to be in the context of getting relief on 2010 salaries (Harang, Arroyo).
But EE is scheduled to make $4.75 million next year, I think.
Wow, that Pirates team has just been absolutley gutted. What the heck? Though I wouldn’t mind Jocketty shipping off four of five of our guys right now.
Can the Reds just trade Joey Votto to a new team so I can switch teams. The past year of pulling for this franchise (since the Dunn trade) have been painfully excrutiating.
I really wish we had Dunn back.
The Pirates are doing a VERY smart thing, and they might be doing it pretty well. They’re a lot smarter there than they used to be.
We better watch it b/c I don’t think the Pirates are going to be doormats for long.
But they are doormats now, so it makes perfect sense for them to get what they can (promising YOUNG guys) for guys like Wilson and Sanchez.
Anyone else think that the Reds lack of movement so far indicates that not much is going to happen? Given Jocketty’s general pace of making transactions, it seems like only one deal might get done in the next 24hrs (I’m not really counting the Manuel trade… I’m talking trading any of the 25 man roster) Maybe they’re waiting until winter.
And by the way, I’ve never understood what’s so bad about trading within the division?
If the Pirates think they have a deal that’ll be good for them in the future, then doesn’t it stand to reason that that deal is probably BAD for the Cubs in the future?
I don’t see a problem w/ it at all if they like what they’re getting in return.
You also shouldn’t underestimate the positive leadership role that the Reds desperately need in their clubhouse. Think Greg Vaughn in 1999. As far as I can tell EE is utterly useless, probably counterproductive, in that regard.
1. “Probably counterproductive” is total b.s. I’ve said this before: Show ONE fact to support that claim, or don’t say a guy is a clubhouse cancer.
2. The Reds have (supposedly) had all sorts of “positive leaders” throughout this decade, starting with the Beloved Sean Casey.
I’m always skeptical of “clubhouse chemistry,” because it’s almost always this finger-on-the-scale thing that can be used to justify any sort of move.
It’s unprovable, and unmeasurable, so it can be as big as it “needs” to be. Hate Adam Dunn but can’t explain away how you’ll replace 40 HR? Just say “he’s not a leader.” Want to justify playing Ramon Hernandez over Ryan Hanigan? “Veteran leadership.” Paying Juan Castro millions when Paul Janish does the same thing? “Clubhouse presence.”
Agreed Dan… what to the Pirates care at the moment? They aren’t going to be competing now or next year, so if they get parts they want inside the division and somehow get better in the next several years, then they intend to be better then the Cubs in the future.
We’d be better off now if we had sucked it up and done what the Pirates are doing now, a few years ago.
We did a few deals like that in 2003 (thank you, Brad Kullman!) and managed to turn Jose Guillen into Aaron Harang — that’s worked out pretty well! We sold high on Guillen and bought low on Harang at age 24 or 25 or whatever it was — perfect. I wish we’d do more of that.
And by the way, I’ve never understood what’s so bad about trading within the division?
Me neither. I think it’s a sign of GMs who are afraid to answer questions from the media if/when the guy hits a HR against his old team.
If you’re confident in what you’re doing, who cares who you trade with? I think it’s the same thing as “going by the book.” Regardless if the decision is actually smart, you have an answer to your critics.
Don’t get me wrong, I am not criticizing what Huntington is doing now, as painful for their fans as it must be at the moment. At least they have stopped settling for just trying to be mediocre and made a conscious decision to rebuild and stuck to it.
Just wish we had as clear a gameplan.
I thought the Reds could have used a guy like Rolen at the start of the season, and they sure could have used him while Votto needed time off, but I’m not sure a guy can just step into the clubhouse and command instant respect.
Baseball’s a job like any other.
Travis, you didn’t know that Rolen just steps of the plane and says “Hi, I’m Scott Rolen, I’m your new clubhouse leader. Even when I’m hurt, I’ll be in the ear of the youngsters, you heard it here first. You can count on me.”
Didn’t say “clubhouse cancer” and I don’t think that. Didn’t hate Adam Dunn (although I support the Reds move there). Don’t support playing Hernandez over Hanigan, just the opposite. Not calling for Castro over Janish. So please, if you’re addressing my post, which you seem to be, don’t put words in my mouth.
Let me be clear. I support the use of young players. If it were my team, Janish would be playing SS this year, Hanigan catching, Stubbs (or Dickerson) in CF. Votto, Bruce, Bailey, Volquez, Cueto, Phillips are the core of this team. I also like Roenicke, Masset, Fisher and Herera. I believe all those are young players. I would trade Cordero, Harang and/or Arroyo. I would DFA Gonzalez. I believe those are old players.
So please don’t lump my support of the Rolen trade in with straw arguments that aren’t being made here by me or others.
On the other hand, name one example of a team winning a division without some degree of veteran leadership? You can’t find it. What I’m saying is that the single replacement of Rolen for Encarnacion would provide the Reds one veteran, at a position where I believe for 2009 and 2010 it would be a substantial upgrade defensively and likely offensively.
EE? Well, he’s been benched before for his attitude. He has never spoken up once about the need for the team to play better or harder. You’re right, this is pretty much speculation since we aren’t in the locker room. But from what I’ve observed, and I watch the Reds pretty closely, I’ve never once seen EE exhibit any form of leadership – and that lack translates into being counterproductiveness when it takes the place of someone who could be a positive in that regard.
I’ve you’ve seen positive leadership qualities from EE, please give examples.
This is the dumbest thing I have ever heard. If it happens, I don’t think I will watch them again until they are gutted.
I think the general thought is that we as fans have no idea what the mental make-up of a player is. Not one of us is in the clubhouse to know what someone does for positive or negative leadership credentials. And because it’s not measurable, nobody could prove “veteran leadership” does or does not help anything. All we really get as fans is media tid-bits tha often just echo the party-line.
According to Gammons (per MLBtraderumors), the Reds have backed off the Rolen deal.
I hope Gammons is right on this one. I’m with Travis that getting Rolen before the season started would have made sense… not now… and not for Alonso.
EE? Well, he’s been benched before for his attitude.
So has Rolen, during the NLCS.
I’ve you’ve seen positive leadership qualities from EE, please give examples.
How about those times he goes to the mound to talk to the young Latin pitchers when they’re struggling? That’s a form of leadership, no? By all accounts, his teammates respect him and admire his work ethic. The same cannot be said for Brandon Phillips, who proclaimed himself the team leader (pssst: yer doin’ it wrong).
Travis I read the same post that you saw on MLB Trade Rumors and gathered some stats myself
E.E. Last for years including this one
.255 avg
.346 obp
232 rbi’s
444 games played
career 78 E’s over 491 games played
Rolen
.285 avg
.354 obp
246 rbi’s
457 games played
83 E’s over the last 862 games
If we could move E.E. in the trade and a prospect no one special and they picked up part of his salary. That would leave us with a year and a half of solid batting avg and fielding till we are able to bring someone up from the minors in 2011.
Matt WI said it right. No, I was not ascribing any of the points I mentioned to Steve — only his supposition that EE was a negative force in the clubhouse. The rest was just my reasons for discounting the benefits of “veteran leadership” or whatever anyone calls it.
And I don’t think those examples are straw men, at all. Dunn, Ramon, Castro – “intangibles” were cited with regard to all those guys and many more. And as Matt WI said, nobody has any clue whether it’s true. But people just say it.
On the other hand, name one example of a team winning a division without some degree of veteran leadership? You can’t find it.
That’s like saying you can’t find a team winning a division without a left-handed pitcher. EVERY team has someone who’ll be tagged a “veteran leader” if the team wins. And most BAD teams have guys who get that tag, too. Alex Gonzalez, Harang, Arroyo, Ramon, Weathers, Rhodes, Cordero – all those guys are periodically cited for their off-the-field value. And the team stinks.
EE? Well, he’s been benched before for his attitude.
I do not remember that happening.
He has never spoken up once about the need for the team to play better or harder.
HE SPEAKS SPANISH. I’ve never heard EE interviewed on any topic whatsoever. But I never said the guy was Rah-Rah Jones.
I’ve never once seen EE exhibit any form of leadership – and that lack translates into being counterproductiveness when it takes the place of someone who could be a positive in that regard.
Those are NOT the same thing. You even noted the difference in the first post (“… utterly useless, probably counterproductive.”) I don’t have any opinion on the “useless” part – I have no way of knowning. But saying a guy is “counterproductive” implies that he’s actively doing something to hurt the team, not just that there’s someone better available in the league.
If we could move E.E. in the trade and a prospect no one special and they picked up part of his salary.
I could live with that – definitely.
#61 sounds too good to be true. I’m sure management will shoot themselves in the foot.
@Chris G – turns out we agree on the EE trade parameters, and possibly that was the sticking point for Jockety, too, if the Blue Jays asked for too good of a prospect. I also agree that skepticism about these claims is warranted – too many times “veteran leadership” gets us Alex Gonzalez.
In terms of Rolen’s “benching” for the NCLS, I looked it up and the first article I found said this (note the part about the Cardinals winning the World Series):
“Rolen’s concern over being “benched” proved unfounded as he went on to play in every game of the NLCS and the World Series and went on a ten-game hitting streak as the Cardinals won the World Series.” Rolen played in NLCS
I suggest this article, too.
Rolen Leadership Attributes
EE was benched by Jerry Narron for not running out a pop fly.
Encarnacion Benched
i think like posts mentioned before, the roland trade requires a halladay trade, and that doesn’t seem likely now that the phills are out of it.
it all seems academic if dusty is still around. firing him should be the reds top priority.
what about rick sweet? give him a shot for the rest of the year and if they can turn this sinking ship around, give him another year. let jocketty get the types of people he wants to in this offseason. sweet isn’t going to have a ton of sway to say ‘i need a guy with speed, someone who sucks at baseball, but is really fast.’
dare i say, larkin as hitting coach? i guy can dream.
Wow, where do I sign up for replacing Baker with Sweet?
MLBTradeRumors.com:
“Even after adding George Sherrill, the Dodgers are looking to add relievers, according to ESPN.com’s Jayson Stark. They’re interested in adding a right-handed setup man. Teams in conversation with the Dodgers say they have interest in David Weathers, Matt Capps, Arthur Rhodes and Jason Frasor.
Speaking of Halladay and the Phils, wouldn’t it be wild if they just emptied their remaining farm system for him? They still have the two prospects Toronto covets, Drabek and Happ, even after acquiring Cliff Lee. They’ve still got Michael Taylor (whom I covet for the Reds) and Dominic Brown, too. Not sure it’d be advisable, but it’d be fun to watch!
Dodgers interested in Weathers and Rhodes
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2009/07/dodgers-havent-finished-search-for-arms-yet.html
4:13pm: ESPN’s Peter Gammons says the Reds “backed off a potential deal” for Rolen. The Reds are actually hoping to move some contracts, and will listen on Bronson Arroyo, David Weathers, Aaron Harang, and Arthur Rhodes. Plus there’s the issue of the Jays not wanting to trade Rolen if they keep Halladay.
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/cincinnati_reds/index.html
I wouldn’t be surprised if the Reds only make one move (or none) before the deadline as many people expect more players than usual to pass through the waiver wire.
Just once it might be nice to see a decent third basemen take the field EE has a Willy Mo bat ready to burn out at any second and stone hands….I can say bye to EE but not Yonder that rumor is BS
So how would you all feel if the Reds totally pulled a Pirates and traded a whole bunch of older more expensive guys away?
What if, for example, we traded Arroyo, Harang, Weathers, Rhodes, and Edwin and got back like 7 or 8 good but not great prospects? (Not all in the same trade, of course…)
Would you be pissed, or sort of excited that the team had a clear direction and plan?
(I guess it’s kind of hard to say without knowing who we get back… but anyway… give it a shot.)
Dan… I could live with a Pirate type movement with getting rid of any of those guys. The real question would be does the team actually have a “clear direction and plan” other than dumping salary. The speed and defense plan is blowing up in our faces. We’d have to get some major league talent back for Harang and Edwin, and at least one or two blue chippers before I’d be excited.
The Pirates, from what I’ve read, got a bunch of low-ceiling prospects back in their trades this week. Not that they had any big stars left to deal, but they were restocking a barren farm system with more quantity that quality.
The Reds are in a different position. They’ve got several high-ceiling young players already playing at the ML level (or sitting on a ML DL, as it were) and a passel of lower-ceiling prospects who are nearly ML-ready. They’d be better off trying to buy low on an expensive vet who can play SS or CF and/or bat leadoff or cleanup this year and next, or trying to clear payroll in order to acquire another expensive vet who can play SS or CF and/or bat leadoff or cleanup.
I would be willing to give up one of the SP, one RP and either Heisey or Stubbs to accomplish this. I’m not totally against the EdE-Rolen swap, but I’d rather sign Beltre this winter.
It’s very simple… The only advantage of EdE over Rolen is that EdE isn’t a FA until 2012. That means you get two years more of EdE.
Otherwise, Rolen is an upgrade in almost every aspect of the game. If it is EdE for Rolen, even straight up, I’d be fine with the deal. Including another prospect is insane.
I think I’d be fine w/ Rolen-for-EE straight-up.
(I’d also be fine w/ the Reds moving Frazier back to 3B, by the way!! He’s a future MLB player; Francisco is not.)
Francisco has as much a shot a 3B as Frazier Dan. Francisco hits for power and like all young hitters has a lack of discipline. He’s probably a DH/1B type in his prime years but he’ll be a decent 3B.
Steve at #53…
just who exactly was the clubhouse leader in Tampa Bay last year? Troy Percival? Cliff Floyd? Chad Bradford?
Veteran leadership can be overrated sometimes. I don’t discount the notion that you need a leader at times or at least someone all of the other players respect. But it’s not crucial to winning.
Scott Rolen’s “leadership” often clashed with LaRussa and Bowa. I mean, I actually would like it if someone clashed with Dusty a little bit, but it can also be detrimental. Sure that stuff might have been overblown, as he’s been fine in Toronto, but you never really know who is a “real” veteran leader.
I’m not against Rolen on our team. I’m against getting Scott Rolen and imagining he’s going to be that much better than EE (he’s declining in fielding at age 34) or he’s going to stabilize our clubhouse any better. I’m against getting Scott Rolen if the price is too high or if it means adding more to the payroll that could be better spent. We need to shed guys like Arroyo first
David, you’re also forgetting Rolen’s injury history and age. The odds of Rolen being healthy for a full season are probably about 50/50. And he’s not going to improve at age 35. And Rolen makes something like $10M more than EE.
FanGraphs has Rolen at 4.8 runs > replacement, defensively (based on UZR). Last year, it was 5.6. EE is at -6.0 this year; -9.8 last. That’s roughly a difference of 1.5-2 games, over a season. That’s a lot, but I’m not sure its worth $10M.
David David David…Francisco has 32 errors (and one more tonight already) this season in 94 games. He is worse than Encarnacion at 3rd.
The Reds are playing Frazier at LF because they already know he can play 3B at the major league level, they are just seeing what else he can play (he’s also played some 2B).
Dan, I don’t think I’d support a major fire sale, only because I think this team is close. The starting pitching has sucked eggs for a month, but hopefully Harang (and even Bronson) haven’t forgotten how to pitch. It may not be a winning hand, but I’m not sure you’re going to have a better one.
But everything is colored by the fact that Dusty Baker is the manager. I have zero confidence that he would actually play the appropriate players. He’s going to do what he wants to do. And unfortunately, he “enjoys” batting horrible CFs in the leadoff spot.
Let’s trade the entire system to Washington and start following them.
No, Francisco doesn’t just have the impatience of youth… He has a historically bad K-to-BB ratio. Truly.
7-to-1… 6-to-1… 5-to-1… I challenge you to find ANYONE who’s had even a whiff of success at the MLB level who had K-to-BB numbers like that in the minors.
I’ve tried once or twice, and I literally found no one. Not Kingman, not Francouer, no one.
I suspect that if he makes it to the MLB level, he might hit an occasional light-tower HR, but I really think he’ll be eaten alive. I’m not sure he’ll bat .200.
If the Reds have $12 million to spend next “blow” next year, I’d call Cleveland and see what it would take to get V-Mart and Peralta.
And unfortunately, he “enjoys” batting horrible CFs in the leadoff spot.
That has been true in Cincinnati, but I don’t think that’s historically true, is it?
the problem the reds face is that they’re paying decent/bad players a lot of money, and that’s hard to trade. trading guys like jack wilson, freddy sanchez, and ian snell isn’t that tough because they weren’t making that much.
getting rid of arroyo and harang would be fine with me, i’ve seen enough. neither is going to get better next year, at best we can hope for more of the same, which at this point is a couple of 4th/5th starters.
but other teams know that too, and who wants to pay them 10+ mil? there are better/cheaper options out there.
so then the option is for the reds to eat some of their salaries, that would probably get it done. but who do you replace them with next year if you haven’t really saved much money? lehr and maloney? wood? if you have any confidence that they’d do better i have some prime real estate you might be interested.
and that’s why you don’t give bronson all that money. harang at least was good for most of his deal, so i can’t say it was a bad one, but it’s bad now. sometimes small market teams just have to wait til those types of bad contracts come off the books.
if i were the reds, i would see what i could get for one of them if we paid the whole salary. if it’s a top prospect, a real impact player close to the majors, i’d do it.
yes is sucks to pay people who aren’t on your team, but with arroyo and harang in the rotation, do the reds win next year? probably not. we’re really just waiting them out. so i’d say get a real piece for the future if you can, if you’re going to lose next year and pay the money either way.
Yeah but where do you get a championship-caliber replacement . . . if you’re spending all that $$ for them to play elsewhere?
Sanchez and Wilson were not all that cheap:
This is from Cot’s…
Sanchez – 09:$6.1M, 10:$8M club option ($0.6M buyout)
Wilson – 09:$7.25M, 10:$8.4M club option ($0.6M buyout)
I’d say OK to Martinez but no to Peralta.
GregD, I took a look @ Dusty’s history:
1993 SF- Darren Lewis was the most common leadoff man (101 times): .302 OBP
94 – Lewis .340
95 – Lewis .303 when traded to CIN; replaced by Deion Sanders .296 when acquired – .346 for Dusty
96 – Marvin Benard .333
97 – Darryl Hamilton .354
98 – Hamilton .393 when traded away; then Benard .396
99 – Benard .359
00 – Benard .342
01 – Benard .320 and Calvin Murray .319
02 – David Bell (3b) .333; Kenny Lofton .353 for SF; Tom Goodwin .321; Tsuyosi Shinjo .294
03 – Cubs: Grudzielanek (2b) .366 and Goodwin .328; then Lofton .333 when acquired, .388 for CHI
04 – Todd Walker .352; then COREY PATTERSON .320
05 – Jerry Hairson (2b/LF) .336; Patterson .254(!!!); Neifi Perez .298(!!!); and Matt Lawton .380 when acquired, .289 for CHI. That’s SIXTY-FIVE starts to guys w/ <.300 OBP.
06 – Juan Pierre .330
08 – CIN: Patterson .238 (!!!). But actually, JHJ (.384 overall OBP) actually ended up with the most starts, and had a .427(!!) OBP when leading off. Corey’s was .217 in the #1 hole.
09 – WILLY! .279(!)
Sign me up for V-Mart and Matt Laporta from Cleveland. Do that deal yesterday.
Re: Francisco, I agree with Dan and Eddie.
Francisco’s HR numbers jump out at you on paper, but he’s a guy who has no two-strike approach whatsoever and still offers at anything within his zip code. If he makes it to the majors with the plate discipline he has now, he would be a 20 homer/150 strikeout guy.
I just saw him a few nights ago in Zebulon against the Lookouts and he looks like he’s put on some bad body weight around the waist. I don’t remember him being as big when I saw him in Dayton last year. I honestly can’t see him sticking at 3rd.
Just my .02
David (#75)…Francisco is TERRIBLE defensively. He makes EE look like Brooks Robinson. He’s made errors in 3 straight games and has 33 errors in 95 games. He will never play 3B in the bigs…NEVER.
mlbtraderumors says that the Dodgers and Angels are still looking for relief help. Someone please let Jocketty know. Thanks!