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My Reds 25-year anniversary All-Star team
We kicked this around last night on Sports Talk.
These players fit the time frame between 1985-2009. They were judged on their overall body of work as a member of the Reds in this span…not a single season.
C: Joe Oliver. Rock solid behind the plate….a leader…double digit HR’s six times…best year ‘93 14 HR’s 75 RBI.
Runner-up: Eddie Taubansee…best season ‘99 .311-21-87…..defensive skills lacking
1B: Sean Casey. Only candidate I named my son after. Hit .305 as a Red….20+ HR’s three times, 80+ RBI five times.
Runner-up: Hal Morris. Hit .305 as a Red….best year ‘96 .313-16-80
2B: Brandon Phillips: Just three and half seasons…but wow….a Gold Glove and a 30/30 season.
Runner-up: Ron Oester. Close call. He was dependable and solid….hustle never questioned….not afraid to speak his mind or get in a guys face.
SS: Barry Larkin. 12 time All-Star, 30/30, MVP
Runner-up: Anyone really close? no.
3B: Chris Sabo. Rookie of Year, starter for ‘90 World Series team, hit 21, 25, 26 HR’s, and drove in 71,82,88
Runner-up: Aaron Boone
LF: Adam Dunn: No a Big Donkey fan, but hard to dispute his production…40+ HR’s five straight years…100+ RBI four straight years.
Runner-up: Billy Hatcher. Acquired in April of ‘90….won the LF job and stole 30 bases. Played just three years, but came up big in the playoffs and World Series. Postseason impact gives him edge over Greg Vaugh’s 45-118 and leadership in 1999.
CF: Eric Davis. Dynamic and dominant..two time All-Star, three time Gold Glover..203 HR….270 SB’s
Runner-up: Ken Griffey Jr…a shame he was hit by so many injuries
RF: Dave Parker. The Cobra should have won the MVP in ‘85 when he went .312-34-125, but finished 2nd to Willie McGee. Followed in ‘86 with 31-116 and ‘87 with 27-97….four years with the Reds produced 432 RBI’s.
SP: Tom Browning. Record of 123-88, including a 20-9 and 18-5 season…a perfect game and seven double digit win seasons.
Runner-up: Jose Rijo….97-61 record..World Series MVP
Closer: John Franco. Solid, consistent and a nasty screwball….148 saves in 6 years…three time All-Star…had years of 29,32,32, 39 saves
Runner-up: Danny Graves..franchise leader in saves with 182 in 9 years….30+ saves four times, two time All-Star.
Manager: Lou Piniella. A World Series title will get you this spot
Runner-up: Jack McKeon…engineered the run of 1999
Lance took input on this, I picked Taubensee over Oliver based on offense; Rijo over Browning because when Rijo was healthy he was dominant; Graves over Franco (all time saves leader, etc); and I took Pete as manager. He was here longer, his winning percentage was the same as Pinella’s (with much less talent and only .004 less than McKeon) and he should get more credit for the ‘90 WS win, as he helped get that team in place (ala Dave Bristol/Sparky Anderson).
No love for Bret Boone at second base?
Joe Oliver was a pretty underrated catcher, I think probably because he usually had a pretty low BA. His winning hit in the 10th inning of game 2 of the 1990 series was a classic moment.
I wanna give Paul O’Neil some love. Throwing what’s his face out at third base in the NLCS changed that series completely. He was badass. And so was Reggie Sanders. Hit the farthest home run I ever witnessed
Yes O’Neill threw out Bobby Bonilla at 3rd, the turning point of the 1990 NLCS.
What a great player and competitor, Yankee fans love him.
Sanders was also an outstanding all around player, but injury ridden and so inconsistent. He and Gant killed the Reds in the 1995 NLCS sweep at the hands of the Braves.
I would not go with Graves as the best closer, despite the saves number. Franco was better, so was Dibble.
I strongly disagree with Pete Rose as manager. He was not a good manager. His teams that finished in 2nd place from 1986 thru 1988 had plenty of talent. In 1987 the Reds were expected to win the division and led for most of the season, but had a total collapse in August, without any injuries. They had two series against the Giants (who won the division) and were swept in both. In 1988 they lost out to a less talented Dodgers team.
In 1986, as a .219 (.586 OPS)hitter, he put himself at the top of the lineup every day the first half of the season, playing first base. And this was after he’d already broken the career hit record.
He insisted that the great Mario Soto pitch with 3 days rest instead of the 4 to which Soto had been accustomed.
Soto objected strongly, but had no choice. He soon hurt his arm and was never the same.
There is no reason to believe that the Reds would have won the WS (or even their division) in 1990 under Rose.
He did not have the personality of a good manager, way too self-centered.
That’s not a very good team for 25 years. Illustrates the Reds’ problem, I think.
PS The choices of Graves and Rose are based too much on longvity, how many saves, how many wins. I’ve already mentioned closers who were clearly superior to Graves.
Lou Piniella and Davey Johnson were clearly superior as managers.
I’ve listened to the Bonilla throwout at 3B many times on the Marty Brennaman CD I have… it was Eric Davis who made the throw. Hatcher (CF) went back to the wall and couldn’t make the catch, and Davis (LF) came over to play the carom and made the throw. (GREAT call by Marty too.)
Or is there another play by O’Neill I’m forgetting?
All in all, based on his numbers as a Red, O’Neill was good but not great. Frustratingly, he became great pretty much the moment he became a Yankee.
O’Neill as Red – .259/.336/.431 – OPS+ 111
O’Neill as Yankee – .303/.377/.492 = OPS+ 125
Yeah, based just on my gut, I’d much rather have Dibble, Myers, or Charlton than Graves.
Graves had an extended good run… but the Nasty Boys were flat-out dominant (especially Dibble in his prime).
Lance’s list is a joke. How could he forget:
CF: Willy Taveras
And didn’t O’Neill throw out Andy Van Slyke?
Dan, We’re talking about two different throws. I heard the live call on the radio and have watched game 2 on video many times. Tom Browning was pitching. It was the 6th (or 5th) inning, the Pirates were down a run. Bonilla and Bonds got on first and second with none out. Andy van Slyke hit a ball to RF (nowhwere near CF).
O’Neill gunned down Bonilla at 3rd with a perfect throw.
I do recall a great throw that Eric Davis made in that series, which must be what you describe. It was also on Bonilla ?
(11) Andy Van Slyke was the one who hit the fly ball to O’Neill.
(#8) Yes O’Neill did not achieve greatness as a Red. Lou Piniella wanted him to be more of a pull hitter, O’Neill didn’t like it and there was discord.
Huh, interesting. OK.
The play I’m talking about (on Marty’s CD) is a Bonilla shot to CF or LCF in the 1990 NLCS. Hatcher goes back to the wall for the catch and doesn’t get it. Davis plays the carom off the wall. Bonilla tries to stretch it to a triple and Davis guns him down.
I just assumed that’s what you meant — hard to believe that Bonilla got thrown out at third in critical plays twice in a 6-game series!
“That’s not a very good team for 25 years”
Exactly what I was thinking. Looking at the possibility of including Ron Oester or Danny Graves on your quarter century list is telling.
Of course, what’s telling is that Oester is on there for style of play more than for play itself. That’s Cincinnati for ya’.
I’ll take Taubensee over Oliver. Dibble over Graves. They’d kill for Billy Doran in Houston, but he just didn’t have the same body of work here. I’d take Rijo and Soto. Soto played on some very, very bad teams.
I guess the talent hasn’t been shocking over 25 years, but your team is also gonna suffer if you’re polling WLW listeners. SInce when does not being afraid to get in someone’s face equal worthiness for an all-star team? Oester was a solid 2nd baseman, especially for the mid-80’s, but I’m pretty sure he only played two full seasons with solid numbers past 1985.
Besides B. Phillips he also should be behind Bip Roberts, Mariano Duncan, Brett Boone, Bill Doran, Juan Samuel, and possibly Pokey Reese.
Ah, good call on Bip Roberts. He slipped my mind. Duncan and Boone are definately ahead of Oester on my list. I really liked Doran and wished he had spent more of his career with the Reds.
I think a list of the worst in the last 25 years would be… something. It might be difficult because of all the contenders. That post would be very special.
Mario Soto was great, but his best years were 1980 thru 1984.
Agreed that Oester does not belong. Piniella made sure that he was not his starting 2nd baseman.
I don’t like a lot of the picks. Plus if we are picking all positions why not pick 5 starters? Browning over Rijo is a joke.
My 25 year all-Reds team (off the top of my head, no research)
1B: Votto
2B: Todd Walker
SS: Larkin (the easiest pick and probably MVP)
3B: Sabo
LF: Dunn (by a mile)
CF: Davis
RF: Reggie Sanders
C: Taubensee
Utility Player: Bip Roberts
Honorable Mention: Jr
Best Individual Season: Larkin 1996
SP
Rijo
Harang
Harnisch
Dessens
Volquez
RP
Franco
Williamson
Shaw
Dibble
I think that’s a good team and GREAT bullpen
the problem over the last 25 years has not been the good players. It’s been these players
1B: Benzinger
2B: Oester
SS: Castro
3B: Branson
LF: Howard
CF: Patterson/Taylor/Milner/Winningham/Taveras
RF: Bichette
C: Oliver
Honerable Mention: Reese
Worst Season: Patterson 2008 (Taveras is close)
SP
Jarvis
Milton
Acevedo
Dempster
Pugh
RP
Hamilton
Reith
Ayala
Scudder
and lastly here are the Reds rank by position over the 25 years
RCAP
383 1st SS (!!!)
76 6th LF
67 9th CF
-73 18th 3B
-77 19th C
-121 23rd RF
-158 22nd 1B
-203 27th 2B
-251 20th Pitching
by the way, here are the 15 most productive Reds (defense not included) adjusted by position in the last 25 years
RCAP RCAP
1 Barry Larkin 488
2 Eric Davis 189
3 Adam Dunn 118
4 Ken Griffey Jr. 109
5 Kal Daniels 81
6 Kevin Mitchell 76
7 Eddie Taubensee 55
8 Reggie Sanders 39
9 Chris Sabo 38
10 Joey Votto 32
11 Bip Roberts 27
T12 Ron Gant 26
T12 Felipe Lopez 26
T14 Javier Valentin 16
T14 Josh Hamilton 16
and least productive
RCAP RCAP
1 Juan Castro -72
2 Todd Benzinger -69
3 Ron Oester -58
4 Pokey Reese -52
5 Lenny Harris -47
6 Jeff Branson -37
7 Joe Oliver -34
8 Billy Hatcher -33
9 Corey Patterson -30
T10 Deion Sanders -29
T10 Michael Tucker -29
T12 Bret Boone -28
T12 Reggie Taylor -28
14 Curtis Goodwin -27
T15 Eddie Milner -25
and the pitchers
RSAA RSAA
1 Jose Rijo 177
2 John Franco 80
3 Scott Williamson 61
4 Jeff Shaw 55
5 Rob Dibble 52
6 Aaron Harang 44
7 Scott Sullivan 43
8 Pete Harnisch 42
9 Danny Graves 39
10 Jeff Brantley 38
T11 Elmer Dessens 36
T11 Norm Charlton 36
T11 Rob Murphy 36
14 Bronson Arroyo 33
15 Frank Williams 30
and for those with sensitive stomachs you might want to look at this next list of worst pitchers
RSAA RSAA
1 Kevin Jarvis -53
2 Eric Milton -49
3 Jose Acevedo -48
4 Ryan Dempster -46
5 Tim Pugh -38
6 Jack Armstrong -36
7 Paul Wilson -31
8 Frank Pastore -29
T9 Todd Van Poppel -28
T9 Josh Fogg -28
11 Joey Hamilton -25
T12 Brian Reith -24
T12 Gary Majewski -24
T14 Brandon Claussen -23
T14 Jimmy Haynes -23
Joey Hamilton, wow. the memories.
I decided to do a little research into the Reds 25-Year-Team. The team I listed above was off the top of my head. I thought it would be interesting to see the Win Share leaders for the Reds in the last 25 years at each position and I was surprised what I saw. This is total Win Shares (not Win Shares Above Average) so playing time has a major effect.
1B: Casey
2B: Boone (I think this is a combination of playing time and defense, He has 35 hitting WS and 25 fielding WS and Phillips is at 33/16)
SS: Larkin
3B: Sabo
LF: Dunn
CF: Davis (nobody even close)
RF: O’Neill (slightly ahead of Parker and Sanders)
C: LaRue (!?!? Oliver and Taubensee where 8 win shares behind)
Starters
Rijo
Browning
Harang
Arroyo
Harnisch
Relievers
Franco
Graves
Dibble
Sullivan
a little more data since I find picking the best 2B of the last 25 years difficult
Here are the Reds 2B since 1983 with at least 600 PA and their RC/Game adjusted for league average
RUNS CREATED/GAME DIFF PLAYER LEAGUE PA
1 Bill Doran 0.55 4.92 4.37 933
2 Mariano Duncan 0.41 4.99 4.58 903
3 Todd Walker 0.31 5.41 5.10 964
4 D’Angelo Jimenez -.13 5.07 5.21 1102
5 Brandon Phillips -.35 4.86 5.21 2242
6 Luis Quinones -.47 3.82 4.29 615
7 Pokey Reese -.72 4.87 5.58 1213
8 Ron Oester -.77 3.69 4.46 2703
9 Bret Boone -.82 4.27 5.09 2711
and now adjusted for positional average
RUNS CREATED/GAME DIFF PLAYER LEAGUE
1 Todd Walker 0.78 5.41 4.63
2 Bill Doran 0.74 4.92 4.19
3 Mariano Duncan 0.48 4.99 4.51
4 D’Angelo Jimenez 0.17 5.07 4.90
5 Brandon Phillips 0.02 4.86 4.84
6 Luis Quinones -.33 3.82 4.15
7 Bret Boone -.38 4.27 4.65
8 Pokey Reese -.48 4.87 5.35
9 Ron Oester -.62 3.69 4.31
of course it’s difficult to figure out how much defense would change the list of players
one more thing
where Casey and Morris the same person?
So D’Angelo Jimenez was a better hitter than Brandon Phillips ???
Mike, my problem with your second base choices are that Walker played 221 games for the Reds, Doran 260, and Duncan 299. I think being a member of the team for a reasonable amount of time should be part of the equation. Also, Phillips defense is vastly superior too both Walker and Duncan and even Doran.
And I’m not a big Brandon Phillips fan.
Casey and Morris both wanted to be Frank McCormick
Bill, understood. One of the difficulties of picking some sort of all-stars or all-time teams is playing time vs peak value vs overall production.
Pinson points out exactly this problem with Jimenez. His hitting for his short amount of time was more productive than Phillips when looking at a rate stat, but really, so what. Phillips is better on defense and has produced at his rate over a longer period of time.
I always have difficulty weighing total production vs a rate. For example Win Share totals, which show Boone and Phillips as the most productive 2B over the last 25 years vs something like RC/Game which show Walker, Doran and Duncan as at least the most productive hitters over the short period they played.
There are numerous examples.
Kevin Mitchell, Josh Hamilton, Duane Walker, Ron Gant, and Votto who during their short time as Reds have produced at a higher rate than most
vs the long time Reds during the last 25 years
Larkin, Davis, Dunn, Jr and Casey
The fun part is most of us have seen these players play a lot. So most of us have vivid memories of just how great Mitchell and Hamilton, for example, were in their short time.
Steve I was thinking the same thing about Casey, Morris and McCormick
The Reds had typically had good 1B but not typical 1B. Higher average hitters who slug less
I noticed this yesterday, check how ridiculously similar these are and in particular A, C and D
Player A: .301/.350/.437
Player B: .271/.361/.416
Player C: .305/.371/.463
Player D: .305/.362/.444
Player E: .309/.363/.418
these players played at very different times in baseball with different levels of production. If we adjust for that the OPS+ comes out super close for most of them
120 (A), 115 (B), 114 (C), 114 (D), 114 (E)
These players?
McCormick, Driessen, Casey, Morris and H Hendrick all Reds 1B
looking at baseball-reference’s similarity scores
Morris is similar to McCormick by age at 4 different ages
McCormick is Casey’s 2nd most similar player
Morris and Casey both show up on McCormick’s simlar player lists
These players were good with the Reds but are in the 2nd group behind Chase, Reilly, Klu, Perez, and Beckley