I’m still burning over Baker’s post-game press conference last night where he singled out Chris Dickerson for criticism for not backing up the play on the inside-the-park home run by Utley.
First, Dickerson hustles as much on every play, every night as any player on the Reds. He has made countless plays running and diving at full speed. He charges base hits in the OF to set up good throwing angles and strong throws. He rushes to get in position to catch fly balls.
If any player on the Reds team deserves to be commended for the hustle they display, and how it positively affects the team, it should be Chris Dickerson.
Contrast that with the nightly horror show of Willy Taveras. He misplays balls over his head repeatedly. I’ve never seen him dive to make a play. The worst, by far, is that he loafs when charging base hits. I think he does this to deflect attention from his awful arm – if he is slow getting to the ball then there is “no chance” of throwing the runner out, so why try.
I’ve never heard Baker utter a single word of criticism of Taveras. That was OK with me until last night. If Baker wants to avoid criticizing his players in public I respect that – assuming he’s taking care of it in the clubhouse. But once he chooses to attack players in public, he has to be fair about it.
A less charitable reading of Baker’s criticism last night would be that he is trying to justify his increasingly irrational decision to start Taveras ahead of Dickerson by selectively choosing who to take down in public.
Even on the play in question, the primary failure was by Taveras, for running too close to the wall. It’s the second time in the series that he’s made that glaring mistake – which I interpret as being too indifferent to focus on getting better. It’s as much of a mental mistake as Dickerson’s play.
Did Baker criticize Taveras for “making the same mistakes as before”? No.
Anyone with any objectivity would say that Dickerson has clarly proven himself a better centerfielder than Taveras. Hustle, judgment, arm.
Baker’s continued insistence on playing Taveras over Dickerson, Nix and Gomes is an utter embarrassment. Of course it wouldn’t surprise me if Baker “punished” Dickerson for his lack of hustle by not playing him tonight. That would only punish the team and its fans, who deserve better.
…last winter I never thought in a million years that Dusty would create the exact same nightmare in CF as he did last year, but he’s doing it and it’s even worse than before…ugh. We want Pete Mackanin.
Post #7 is dead on point. Taveras is lazy in the OF and misplays fly balls too often. I am convinced that Dusty continues to play Taveras not because he thinks he is a good player or the right player for CF, but, because he is stubborn and knows the fans do not want Taveras to play. This is the same thing that has happened over Baker’s managing career.
It’s not as terrible as the CF decision, but apparently last night was the last Janish sighting until after the all-star break:
“Janish needs to play some,” Baker said. “Hairston’s been playing every day. I’ll give Janish today. Then Hairston will play all three days leading up to the break.”
Regarding the Bruce two-day benching, Marty seemed to be saying last night that Baker originally had said two days in a row because he thought Santana (tough lefty for Bruce) was pitching tonight. But when it was pointed out that Santana is pitching Saturday night then Baker backed off.
Leaving aside for a moment that the Reds manager could confuse such an important detail, I’m OK with sitting Jay against Santana.
The sad thing is that while it’s apparent to all that Bruce is really struggling, it doesn’t seem like there is anyone on the Reds coaching staff who is able to help him, or even get him pointed in a better direction. I’m sure the Reds coaches are very knowledgeable and probably are giving Jay good advice, but the bottom line is they aren’t getting through for some reason. We really need his bat back.
Take away the power numbers and the defense and just look at OBP, which do you think is our leadoff “hitter” and which one is the guy getting benched two days for struggling.
While I’m very excited about both Stubbs and Heisey, we don’t need to try either in CF right now. We HAVE a tremendous young outfielder who is an excellent defender, hustles, has a great arm, bats in .270-.280 range with a near .400 OBP.
His name: Chris Dickerson.
If we played Dickerson in CF we could play Gomes, Nix, Hairston in LF.
Jock builds the team, Dusty just makes out the lineup. One consideration is that Dusty is trying to make a point to Jock. This is what you are giving me to work with. Jock is the guy who can make the real moves, or not.
Be careful about too much on Dickerson. His OBP is holding, which is good, but he’s not young and still makes youthful mistakes. I like him, too. He may be a short-term solution for now, but on a good team, I believe he’s a fourth outfielder.
I agree with Steve & Bill in the last two comments. I said as much in the offseason: Dickerson is a 4th outfielder who could be counted on to handle CF (not LF) short-term until Stubbs is ready. Now they’ve got two guys in AAA potentially ready, yet we’re treated to Taveras out in shallow centerfield every day.
the problem with dusty’s managerial style, his player’s-manager thing, is that he acts like everyone is an incumbent player deserving respect like ken griffey jr. i’m sure that’s what he wanted as a player, and it’s a player’s-manager thing to do.
sure, when grif was struggling in center it’s a senstive thing to move him. but who on this team has done anything in their career to deserve respect like that? harang and cordero, and that’s about it.
like at the beginning of the season, the whole i ain’t no front-runner thing, that was about chris dickerson for godsake! players like dickerson and tavares and gonzo and damn near everyone on this team should consider themselves auditioning until they have established themselves as excellent major leaguers.
no one should get the respect free pass, we don’t have the talent to wait for someone to get back to where dusty thinks they’ll be. play the hot hand. always. until someone shows you that they can sustain it, play the person who is playing better. it should be a dogfight in there for playing time, not a given that the wost hitter on the team hits leadoff.
it is for this reason that i agree with others that nothing gets better until the reds a) get rid of dusty or b) have a team of all-stars. dusty would be a great all-star team manager i bet.
WJ may build the team but it’s pretty obvious to any observer that Baker played a large role into bringing Wee Willy T to this club. Look back at his comments about the slump and Baker personally instructing him, this isn’t the job I’d associate with a manager but a hitting coach. Baker is personally invested in WT and that’s why he plays and doesn’t get the criticism. And I second the motion to bring back Pete Mackanin, at least it seemed he got it, he just didn’t have a big enough name for everyone.
Steve (#7) absolutely.
Dusty was on a rant about mental errors, and Taveras’ running all the way to the wall on a ball over his head
was a mental error. When he did the same thing on Tuesday nite, running all the way to the wall to misplay a ball over his head into a triple by Ruiz (Bruce backed up the play), Buck Showalter selected it as among the 3 stupidest plays of the nite.
“Stupid” implies mental error, and I agree with Buck.
So why was Dusty quiet about Taveras ? Others have already given their theory on that.
As others have said above, Dusty’s managerial style is based on how he wanted to be treated by his manager when he was a player. This gets precedence over winning games.
There’s also a misguided old school thing of his. The Reds and Dodgers of the 70’s would have the same lineup every day, as much as possible.
That’s fine when you have an All Star (or close to it) at every position. It does not work with most teams, it is certainly not the approach to this team.
In a way that has hurt both the players and the team, he played Gonzo every day and continues to play Hernandez every day (as much as you can with a catcher). I won’t even mention our CFer.
I can’t believe it. Can we get some reruns. Last off-season all I heard about Dickerson was that he was too old to be more than a “flash in the pan” or still a prospect, he’ll never make it because he can’t stay healthy, he is taking at bats away from real prospects. Dickerson isn’t the answer. Just another of Dusty’s guys.
The first month there was a lot of “I told you so” being written.
Now he sounds like the next coming of Rickey Henderson.
Can someone explain to me how Dusty Baker thinks Dickerson should have backed up Taveras on the inside the park play? Seems to me Taveras should have played the ball off the wall instead of trying to catch the damn thing.
I can’t believe it. Can we get some reruns. Last off-season all I heard about Dickerson was that he was too old to be more than a “flash in the pan” or still a prospect, he’ll never make it because he can’t stay healthy, he is taking at bats away from real prospects. Dickerson isn’t the answer. Just another of Dusty’s guys.
The first month there was a lot of “I told you so” being written.
Now he sounds like the next coming of Rickey Henderson.
My comment about Dickerson being a fourth outfielder type was to try to add some perspective. I’ve been anticipating the Dickerson backlash comments. I think he was better than he showed earlier in the year (I’ve said all along he’s not a starter), but I’ve also said Taveras had no business being signed. Those two things aren’t mutually exclusive.
I’ll also say that I’m not counting on Stubbs having enough to be an effective starter, either. Dickerson’s Louisville numbers the last two years were both stronger than Stubbs’s, but Drew still has some to improve. (ages matter…Stubbs is 24, Dickerson’s two years were ages 25 and 26). I tend to think they’re both about equal in ability.
Heisey is the same age as Stubbs; he’s not as good defensively, but seems to have more punch at the plate.
We may be able to piece something together. In my opinion, there’s probably a good piece to add to a trade here if managed properly.
You know if Dickerson did .275/.375/.425 and played good defense, that’s better than what most teams get in CF. CF is a trouble spot for a lot of teams. I’m not sure he’s just a 4th OFer. But
Corey Patterson? Come on now…dude was not a better cf than Taveras…Corey’s career ended when he tore his acl the Bartman year with the Cubs…The Cubs gave up on him…the Orioles gave up on him but of course my fellow genius Reds fans are clamoring for him to come back…thats fine if you want a .220 10 40 with 100 k’s out of your leadoff spot coupled with poor defense and the lack of the stolen base threat…Willy started the season well but has had some nagging injuries…how about we give him a full season before we jump all over him…a bunch of Freel jersey owners on this blog…I swear
Hey, great news. Dusty saw the error of his ways and moved Taveras out of the leadoff spot for tonight. He moved him all the way down to 2nd in the batting order.
RUNS CREATED/GAME YEAR DIFF PLAYER LEAGUE
1 Jim Clinton 1885 -3.84 4.26 8.10
2 Bob Usher 1951 -2.68 2.36 5.04 3 Corey Patterson 2008 -2.47 2.51 4.98
4 Bobby Tolan 1973 -2.32 2.24 4.56 5 Willy Taveras 2009 -2.12 3.13 5.26
6 Taylor Douthit 1932 -2.10 3.09 5.19
7 Cesar Geronimo 1973 -2.00 2.56 4.56
8 Bob Usher 1950 -1.98 3.96 5.95
9 Harry Craft 1940 -1.95 3.39 5.34
10 Ethan Allen 1929 -1.93 4.65 6.58
so Patterson’s season last year on offense is slightly worse than Taveras but remember we are talking the worst Reds CF production EVER so it’s almost ridiculous to talk about one being better than the other.
but that’s just offense and we know (and we knew before we signed them both, that they could not get on base or hit)
what about defense?
UZR/150
1.2 Taveras (2009)
.7 Patterson (2008)
again, splitting hairs, both are are average
the potential HR off the bench is about the only advantage Patterson has
in the end the most important part, is that neither player should have EVER BEEN SIGNED
and If I remember right, it was Dusty who made personal calls and seemed to go to the media to talk up these two to get them signed. They are “his guys”
and just to give a positive spin here are the best offensive seasons by a Reds CF of all time
RUNS CREATED/GAME YEAR DIFF PLAYER LEAGUE
1 Cy Seymour 1905 4.91 11.49 6.59
2 Eric Davis 1987 4.10 9.57 5.46
3 Charley Jones 1883 2.82 9.14 6.32
4 Ken Griffey Jr. 2005 2.79 7.80 5.01
5 Eric Davis 1989 2.72 6.71 3.99
6 Bug Holliday 1891 2.71 9.16 6.45
7 Eric Davis 1996 2.38 7.56 5.18
8 Ken Griffey Jr. 2001 2.36 7.02 4.66
9 Bug Holliday 1889 2.31 9.53 7.21
10 Ken Griffey Jr. 2000 2.29 7.87 5.58
11 Eric Davis 1988 2.25 6.68 4.42
12 Fred Lewis 1886 2.22 8.24 6.02
13 Edd Roush 1917 2.21 6.77 4.56
14 Josh Hamilton 2007 2.15 7.18 5.02
15 Johnny Bates 1911 2.08 6.53 4.46
notice how far ahead Davis’s and Seymour’s seasons are from ever one else
oh how I’d love to have Hamilton in CF and Dunn in LF right now
I’d give Volquez and Owings back in a heartbeat.
How bout we don’t give him a full season and try and put the best team on the field and win? How bout we get him a job and Krispy Kreme where he belongs?
2009 stats: Sarasota 2-1 8 Games 8 Games Started 42.1 IP 4.89 ERA 1.44 WHIP
Carolina 3-2 6 Game 6 Game Started 36 2/3 IP 2.95 ERA 1.09 WHIP
Louisville 2-2 5 Game 5 Game Started 29 IP 2.48 ERA 1.21 WHIP
RN Exclusives!
The Big Board -- In-Depth Reds Organizational Depth Chart (updated 2/7/10)
Salary Chart -- Our chart on the current and future contract status for the Reds roster (updated 2/7/10)
Loading ...
You may have Heisey there if he keeps playing like he has been.
I’d rather have you in CF than the current occupant of that position.
Sadly, I agree with this.
Patterson was at least good for a home run and some RBI every once in a while. He also was a better CF.
Taveras is a truly terrible lead off hitter.
Willy Taveras walk rate: 5.5%
Chris Dickerson walk rate: 13.1%
League average walk percentage: 9.3%
Willy Taveras line drives: 16.6%
Chris Dickerson line drives: 23.1%
I bet Patterson is available.
That is a bold statement…and very, very sad but true.
Plus CP was only under contract for one year
I’m still burning over Baker’s post-game press conference last night where he singled out Chris Dickerson for criticism for not backing up the play on the inside-the-park home run by Utley.
First, Dickerson hustles as much on every play, every night as any player on the Reds. He has made countless plays running and diving at full speed. He charges base hits in the OF to set up good throwing angles and strong throws. He rushes to get in position to catch fly balls.
If any player on the Reds team deserves to be commended for the hustle they display, and how it positively affects the team, it should be Chris Dickerson.
Contrast that with the nightly horror show of Willy Taveras. He misplays balls over his head repeatedly. I’ve never seen him dive to make a play. The worst, by far, is that he loafs when charging base hits. I think he does this to deflect attention from his awful arm – if he is slow getting to the ball then there is “no chance” of throwing the runner out, so why try.
I’ve never heard Baker utter a single word of criticism of Taveras. That was OK with me until last night. If Baker wants to avoid criticizing his players in public I respect that – assuming he’s taking care of it in the clubhouse. But once he chooses to attack players in public, he has to be fair about it.
A less charitable reading of Baker’s criticism last night would be that he is trying to justify his increasingly irrational decision to start Taveras ahead of Dickerson by selectively choosing who to take down in public.
Even on the play in question, the primary failure was by Taveras, for running too close to the wall. It’s the second time in the series that he’s made that glaring mistake – which I interpret as being too indifferent to focus on getting better. It’s as much of a mental mistake as Dickerson’s play.
Did Baker criticize Taveras for “making the same mistakes as before”? No.
Anyone with any objectivity would say that Dickerson has clarly proven himself a better centerfielder than Taveras. Hustle, judgment, arm.
Baker’s continued insistence on playing Taveras over Dickerson, Nix and Gomes is an utter embarrassment. Of course it wouldn’t surprise me if Baker “punished” Dickerson for his lack of hustle by not playing him tonight. That would only punish the team and its fans, who deserve better.
Baker is killing the Reds.
I wish I could disagree with either Chad’s post or Steve’s amplification of it, but I can’t. Last night really hurt in a number of ways.
Angles are looking to move Wood for basically any kind of pitching. Maybe worth giving them a call?
He misplays balls over his head repeatedly.
He plays too shallow and zig zags as he runs backwards.
I’d rather have Chris W’s 5 year old son in centerfield.
Angles are looking to move Wood for basically any kind of pitching. Maybe worth giving them a call?
I’d be in for that deal. Where’d you see that story/rumor?
I would love to add Wood, but you know if Gonzo ever comes back he is going to play EVERY DAY at SS, regardless of his numbers.
…last winter I never thought in a million years that Dusty would create the exact same nightmare in CF as he did last year, but he’s doing it and it’s even worse than before…ugh. We want Pete Mackanin.
Post #7 is dead on point. Taveras is lazy in the OF and misplays fly balls too often. I am convinced that Dusty continues to play Taveras not because he thinks he is a good player or the right player for CF, but, because he is stubborn and knows the fans do not want Taveras to play. This is the same thing that has happened over Baker’s managing career.
It’s not as terrible as the CF decision, but apparently last night was the last Janish sighting until after the all-star break:
“Janish needs to play some,” Baker said. “Hairston’s been playing every day. I’ll give Janish today. Then Hairston will play all three days leading up to the break.”
The same article said that Bruce was going to get two days off, so don’t expect him in the lineup tonight either.
Great idea Baker…give the kid two days off and let him return on Saturday against Johan Santana.
I’d rather have John Fogerty…
Put me in coach…
Regarding the Bruce two-day benching, Marty seemed to be saying last night that Baker originally had said two days in a row because he thought Santana (tough lefty for Bruce) was pitching tonight. But when it was pointed out that Santana is pitching Saturday night then Baker backed off.
Leaving aside for a moment that the Reds manager could confuse such an important detail, I’m OK with sitting Jay against Santana.
The sad thing is that while it’s apparent to all that Bruce is really struggling, it doesn’t seem like there is anyone on the Reds coaching staff who is able to help him, or even get him pointed in a better direction. I’m sure the Reds coaches are very knowledgeable and probably are giving Jay good advice, but the bottom line is they aren’t getting through for some reason. We really need his bat back.
I’d rather have John Fogerty…
Outstanding!!!!!
OBP
Player A .284
Player B .286
Take away the power numbers and the defense and just look at OBP, which do you think is our leadoff “hitter” and which one is the guy getting benched two days for struggling.
A=Bruce
B=Taveras
The saddest thing about all of this is that last year we thought that it would be impossible to have anyone worse than CP in our outfield
I don’t understand why we can’t at least get a look at Stubbs in the OF or Heisey
Someone should find that guy who ran the firedusty.com site and get it restarted
I thought Dickerson was backing up the play because it took him so long to get to the ball after it rolled to right field.
Baker needs to go. He’s just not a good manager.
I don’t know which is worse. Taveras sesason-to-date or the $4 million the Reds owe him next year.
His numbers are worse than they were last year in Colorado.
While I’m very excited about both Stubbs and Heisey, we don’t need to try either in CF right now. We HAVE a tremendous young outfielder who is an excellent defender, hustles, has a great arm, bats in .270-.280 range with a near .400 OBP.
His name: Chris Dickerson.
If we played Dickerson in CF we could play Gomes, Nix, Hairston in LF.
Jock builds the team, Dusty just makes out the lineup. One consideration is that Dusty is trying to make a point to Jock. This is what you are giving me to work with. Jock is the guy who can make the real moves, or not.
Be careful about too much on Dickerson. His OBP is holding, which is good, but he’s not young and still makes youthful mistakes. I like him, too. He may be a short-term solution for now, but on a good team, I believe he’s a fourth outfielder.
I agree with Steve, I think Dickerson is a 4th OFer (albeit a pretty good one), but on THIS TEAM with THIS PERSONNEL, he’s the best option for CF.
I agree with Steve & Bill in the last two comments. I said as much in the offseason: Dickerson is a 4th outfielder who could be counted on to handle CF (not LF) short-term until Stubbs is ready. Now they’ve got two guys in AAA potentially ready, yet we’re treated to Taveras out in shallow centerfield every day.
the problem with dusty’s managerial style, his player’s-manager thing, is that he acts like everyone is an incumbent player deserving respect like ken griffey jr. i’m sure that’s what he wanted as a player, and it’s a player’s-manager thing to do.
sure, when grif was struggling in center it’s a senstive thing to move him. but who on this team has done anything in their career to deserve respect like that? harang and cordero, and that’s about it.
like at the beginning of the season, the whole i ain’t no front-runner thing, that was about chris dickerson for godsake! players like dickerson and tavares and gonzo and damn near everyone on this team should consider themselves auditioning until they have established themselves as excellent major leaguers.
no one should get the respect free pass, we don’t have the talent to wait for someone to get back to where dusty thinks they’ll be. play the hot hand. always. until someone shows you that they can sustain it, play the person who is playing better. it should be a dogfight in there for playing time, not a given that the wost hitter on the team hits leadoff.
it is for this reason that i agree with others that nothing gets better until the reds a) get rid of dusty or b) have a team of all-stars. dusty would be a great all-star team manager i bet.
WJ may build the team but it’s pretty obvious to any observer that Baker played a large role into bringing Wee Willy T to this club. Look back at his comments about the slump and Baker personally instructing him, this isn’t the job I’d associate with a manager but a hitting coach. Baker is personally invested in WT and that’s why he plays and doesn’t get the criticism. And I second the motion to bring back Pete Mackanin, at least it seemed he got it, he just didn’t have a big enough name for everyone.
Greg here (I hope) is the link to the Angels rumor:
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2009/07/angels-seek-starter-relievers.html
Not sure how much they want, but it can’t hurt to ask.
Al, could not agree with you more.
There’s no doubt in my mind that CP was a better hitter and a much better defensive CFer than Taveras. And CP consistently hustled.
Steve (#7) absolutely.
Dusty was on a rant about mental errors, and Taveras’ running all the way to the wall on a ball over his head
was a mental error. When he did the same thing on Tuesday nite, running all the way to the wall to misplay a ball over his head into a triple by Ruiz (Bruce backed up the play), Buck Showalter selected it as among the 3 stupidest plays of the nite.
“Stupid” implies mental error, and I agree with Buck.
So why was Dusty quiet about Taveras ? Others have already given their theory on that.
As others have said above, Dusty’s managerial style is based on how he wanted to be treated by his manager when he was a player. This gets precedence over winning games.
There’s also a misguided old school thing of his. The Reds and Dodgers of the 70’s would have the same lineup every day, as much as possible.
That’s fine when you have an All Star (or close to it) at every position. It does not work with most teams, it is certainly not the approach to this team.
In a way that has hurt both the players and the team, he played Gonzo every day and continues to play Hernandez every day (as much as you can with a catcher). I won’t even mention our CFer.
I can’t believe it. Can we get some reruns. Last off-season all I heard about Dickerson was that he was too old to be more than a “flash in the pan” or still a prospect, he’ll never make it because he can’t stay healthy, he is taking at bats away from real prospects. Dickerson isn’t the answer. Just another of Dusty’s guys.
The first month there was a lot of “I told you so” being written.
Now he sounds like the next coming of Rickey Henderson.
Who said Dickerson is the next coming of Rickey Henderson?
Can someone explain to me how Dusty Baker thinks Dickerson should have backed up Taveras on the inside the park play? Seems to me Taveras should have played the ball off the wall instead of trying to catch the damn thing.
I can’t believe it. Can we get some reruns. Last off-season all I heard about Dickerson was that he was too old to be more than a “flash in the pan” or still a prospect, he’ll never make it because he can’t stay healthy, he is taking at bats away from real prospects. Dickerson isn’t the answer. Just another of Dusty’s guys.
The first month there was a lot of “I told you so” being written.
Now he sounds like the next coming of Rickey Henderson.
Exaggerate much?
You had to bring up Patterson! Now I ‘m going to have nightmares.
My comment about Dickerson being a fourth outfielder type was to try to add some perspective. I’ve been anticipating the Dickerson backlash comments. I think he was better than he showed earlier in the year (I’ve said all along he’s not a starter), but I’ve also said Taveras had no business being signed. Those two things aren’t mutually exclusive.
I’ll also say that I’m not counting on Stubbs having enough to be an effective starter, either. Dickerson’s Louisville numbers the last two years were both stronger than Stubbs’s, but Drew still has some to improve. (ages matter…Stubbs is 24, Dickerson’s two years were ages 25 and 26). I tend to think they’re both about equal in ability.
Heisey is the same age as Stubbs; he’s not as good defensively, but seems to have more punch at the plate.
We may be able to piece something together. In my opinion, there’s probably a good piece to add to a trade here if managed properly.
You know if Dickerson did .275/.375/.425 and played good defense, that’s better than what most teams get in CF. CF is a trouble spot for a lot of teams. I’m not sure he’s just a 4th OFer. But
But he’s not Rickey Henderson!
Corey Patterson? Come on now…dude was not a better cf than Taveras…Corey’s career ended when he tore his acl the Bartman year with the Cubs…The Cubs gave up on him…the Orioles gave up on him but of course my fellow genius Reds fans are clamoring for him to come back…thats fine if you want a .220 10 40 with 100 k’s out of your leadoff spot coupled with poor defense and the lack of the stolen base threat…Willy started the season well but has had some nagging injuries…how about we give him a full season before we jump all over him…a bunch of Freel jersey owners on this blog…I swear
If Dickerson can put up an OBP of .375 over a full season, he’d been one of the most valuable players on the team!
I doubt he can really do that… but I think he could put up a .350-360 OBP roughly.
Too bad we’ll never find out…
Hey, great news. Dusty saw the error of his ways and moved Taveras out of the leadoff spot for tonight. He moved him all the way down to 2nd in the batting order.
Steve, about Stubbs/Heisey…I’ve had people tell me that they thought Heisey was better defensively than Stubbs..I’m just sayin’.
Really, Bill? I thought I remembered reading that Stubbs might be the best defensive outfielder in all of minor league baseball?
Dan, exactly!
Worst season by a Reds CF EVER
RUNS CREATED/GAME YEAR DIFF PLAYER LEAGUE
1 Jim Clinton 1885 -3.84 4.26 8.10
2 Bob Usher 1951 -2.68 2.36 5.04
3 Corey Patterson 2008 -2.47 2.51 4.98
4 Bobby Tolan 1973 -2.32 2.24 4.56
5 Willy Taveras 2009 -2.12 3.13 5.26
6 Taylor Douthit 1932 -2.10 3.09 5.19
7 Cesar Geronimo 1973 -2.00 2.56 4.56
8 Bob Usher 1950 -1.98 3.96 5.95
9 Harry Craft 1940 -1.95 3.39 5.34
10 Ethan Allen 1929 -1.93 4.65 6.58
so Patterson’s season last year on offense is slightly worse than Taveras but remember we are talking the worst Reds CF production EVER so it’s almost ridiculous to talk about one being better than the other.
but that’s just offense and we know (and we knew before we signed them both, that they could not get on base or hit)
what about defense?
UZR/150
1.2 Taveras (2009)
.7 Patterson (2008)
again, splitting hairs, both are are average
the potential HR off the bench is about the only advantage Patterson has
in the end the most important part, is that neither player should have EVER BEEN SIGNED
and If I remember right, it was Dusty who made personal calls and seemed to go to the media to talk up these two to get them signed. They are “his guys”
and just to give a positive spin here are the best offensive seasons by a Reds CF of all time
RUNS CREATED/GAME YEAR DIFF PLAYER LEAGUE
1 Cy Seymour 1905 4.91 11.49 6.59
2 Eric Davis 1987 4.10 9.57 5.46
3 Charley Jones 1883 2.82 9.14 6.32
4 Ken Griffey Jr. 2005 2.79 7.80 5.01
5 Eric Davis 1989 2.72 6.71 3.99
6 Bug Holliday 1891 2.71 9.16 6.45
7 Eric Davis 1996 2.38 7.56 5.18
8 Ken Griffey Jr. 2001 2.36 7.02 4.66
9 Bug Holliday 1889 2.31 9.53 7.21
10 Ken Griffey Jr. 2000 2.29 7.87 5.58
11 Eric Davis 1988 2.25 6.68 4.42
12 Fred Lewis 1886 2.22 8.24 6.02
13 Edd Roush 1917 2.21 6.77 4.56
14 Josh Hamilton 2007 2.15 7.18 5.02
15 Johnny Bates 1911 2.08 6.53 4.46
notice how far ahead Davis’s and Seymour’s seasons are from ever one else
oh how I’d love to have Hamilton in CF and Dunn in LF right now
I’d give Volquez and Owings back in a heartbeat.
Histerical post at #40.
Willy started the season well but has had some nagging injuries…how about we give him a full season before we jump all over him
How about 2008? Can we look at that full season?
How bout we don’t give him a full season and try and put the best team on the field and win? How bout we get him a job and Krispy Kreme where he belongs?
#46 depresses me for two reasons.
1) Eric Davis was amazing and I wish we had someone like him now (minus the strikeouts and the papier mache hamstrings).
2) Josh Hamilton. One day we will all look back and remember, yep, that guy played here once.
man…he’s a terrible defender…*looks at diving catch in gap in citi tonight*…terrible!