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Okay, I admit it, I got a little worked up yesterday trying to defend Edwin Encarnacion. (I know, I shouldn’t use “defend” and “Edwin Encarnacion” in the same sentence.)
I’m just continually amazed at how Reds fans want to toss this guy under the bus, even after the last three years, when Edwin has been an above average hitter (at ages 23, 24, and 25). What more do you want out of the guy? There aren’t many players who can claim to be above league-average as a hitter at those ages.
Some of you actually think there is a question as to who should start at 3B when Edwin gets back? Before you answer that, read this. The gist of that link is that Edwin’s production from last year is far superior to the production the Reds are getting from 3B this year. It’s not even close (and I see no reason not to think Edwin won’t be a better hitter than he was last year).
We all know what the deal is here. Edwin doesn’t smile and he doesn’t drink milk like Brandon Phillips, so no one’s first reaction is to like the guy. That’s the way players are judged in Cincinnati (see Rosales, Adam), for better or worse. It’s vital that you look like you are having fun and playing hard. Perception is much more important than reality in the Queen City.
Perhaps I feel a need to defend Encarnacion because I can see what’s going to happen here: Edwin is going to get the A*** D*** treatment, on a smaller scale. Everyone wants to focus on the things Edwin doesn’t do well (throwing the stupid baseball) instead of cheering the guy for being an above-average hitter who has a chance to be one of the best-hitting third basemen in the game — and for being one of the two hardest-working players on the team, by all reports. And he’s still very young!
At this point, Encarnacion is not the best 3B in the game, but he’s the best 3B that the Reds have. By far. Let’s give the guy a break. When we get Edwin back and healthy and productive, third base becomes one of the Reds strengths. If Walt Jocketty can focus on improving shortstop or left field, this team becomes even more interesting as we transition into summer.
While I understand defending EE and completely agree that he is our best option currently. I do think it is important than EE show some significant progress soon. You are correct in pointing out that he has been an above average hitter in the major leagues. However, he has been so below average with his fielding that, when his total value is figured, he comes out as a slightly below average major leaguer. Now, this is much better than replacement level, but it is still not quite good. And while a team can certainly live with a below average player or two starting, it isn’t unreasonable to expect such a player to either improve or eventually lose his spot. Edwin is 26, and while that’s young, he isn’t wet behind the ears. He is at least somewhat likely to continue improving for a couple of more years, but someday soon (later this year or early next year) the time will come when we have to accept Edwin for whatever he is at that point and decide what to do from there.
The guy that sits next to me at the Dragons games (a good, though “old time” baseball guy) said to me last night concerning EE, “I don’t like his attitude”…I asked what attitude that was and where he got that information. He didn’t have an answer.
I agree that he is our best third baseman right now. The question is, does Rosales have an offensive ceiling as high as EdE? If the answer is yes, then you can have a real debate about playing time. The correct answer is no.
I know I have already riled you up a bit with my comments yesterday, so at risk of repeating I’m going to say this;
First, I AGREE with you that Cincinnati fans put way too much emphasis on “hustle” and not enough on actual production. Without question, EE should play over Adam Rosales. I am also a firm defender of A*** D***. I argued dailey with several fellow Reds fans that wanted him gone.
And, regardless of what I or any other fan says, EE will be the starting 3B when he returns.
However, in the interest of discussion, what frustrates me about EE (more than his defense) is his inconsistancy at the plate. When he goes bad, he goes BAD. And even with his “above average” hitting, he still only manages 60-70 RBI a year. Like Jason said, at some point you have to realize he is what he is. Also, what do you do with Jerry Hairston Jr when EE comes back. IF (I know its a big if) everyone’s healthy, that put JHJ back on the bench and there is no denying how big he has been to their current winning ways. Yeah EE is better than their current 3B production, but JHJ hasn’t played alot of 3B b/c of all of the other injuries.
Finally, my whole point is that with all of the talk of the Reds looking for another bat, I wouldn’t be opposed to looking at EE’s spot. In no way am I wanting him traded, esp w/out equal value. I just think that b/c he is so young still and with our abundance of young pitching prospects, that is our best chance to land a difference making hitter for the middle of the lineup.
Chad, I agree. Having a hitter like Edwin in the 6th spot in the lineup is a huge benefit most teams don’t have.
Last year EE’s defense was a bigger problem because the guy he was throwing the ball across the diamond to had shoddy defense. Votto’s D has improved by leaps and bounds and he continues to improve almost on a daily basis.
EE will have his share of mistakes, but he’ll also make a lot of plays not many other 3b could make.
This team could really use EE in the lineup and if he, Willy T and whoever is in LF on a given night can produce consistently, the Reds will have a tough lineup to face 1-7 every night.
RCR, you aren’t seriously suggesting that JHJ is a legitimate option over Encarnacion?
And, btw, happy 33rd birthday to Jerry Hairston!
One more note: I’m not opposed to trading Encarnacion, either, but why wouldn’t you focus first on improving the positions that are performing below league average?
It’s not like there are a ton of available 3B out there, and every other option in the Reds system would be a downgrade (until 2011 or so, when Frazier or someone might be an option). This team needs more offense, not less.
And even with his “above average” hitting, he still only manages 60-70 RBI a year.
With counting stats, you have to take into account playing time. So, there’s a negative that’s not been mentioned much here, he seems to get hurt once each season. Last year was his career high in games played at 146.
My point is that he’s getting these 60-70rbi each year on 400-500 at-bats. If you prorate those to 600 at-bats, that’s about 90-100 rbi over a full season.
I’m generally an EE supporter too, but is he still an above-average major league 3B if you consider both offense and defense?
I think the fans’ attitude towards EE is obviously due to his slow start (which seems to happen every year) and the fact that he’s not playing right now and Adam Rosales is. Were Edwin hitting .280 and hadn’t already committed several errors before he was injured, people may have a different opinion. Unfortunately, fans have a very short memory. There’s a pretty consistent pattern of hitting over his tenure that leads me to believe he will definitely heat up during the summer months. Like I said before, it’s those bad early starts and poor throwing ability that fans seem to hold on to. I also want to add that I strongly believe EE is capable of winning a Gold Glove at 3B. He makes the most outstanding plays, we’ve all seen ‘em. If only he could learn to throw to 1B properly.
By the way, as for making any moves, I’m a strong strong believer in the basic idea of “buy low, sell high.” For that reason, I don’t think we can even consider dealing EE right now or any time in the near future. He’s been SO bad so far in 2009 that his perceived value has to be rock-bottom right now.
It’s counter-intuitive, I know, but if he (or anyone) is going to be traded away, you’re going to come out best if you wait until after he’s performed great.
This, I think, is what Billy Beane has mastered. He’s not afraid to trade a guy who’s just had a career year. (He also trades guys before they get too expensive, generally.) This is how you get maximum return. And this is why Oakland right now has one of the top 2 farm systems in baseball, from what I’ve read. He got crazy good returns on guys like Mulder, Haren, and Swisher by trading them at the right time.
I like EE, and I want to see him get better, but the kid just can’t throw. Rush him and he’s fine, give him time to throw and its to the wall behind 1B. I’m almost certain if he found the right coach he could work out the funk, but it hasn’t happened yet. He seems at least average on handling the ball, it’s the throw that’s his problem.
At worst he’s a serviceable 3B. I’ve always wanted to see him turn it up a bit, but I think at this point what you see is what you get. And that is very definitely the best 3B on the team, and one that could be part of a contending team.
And Chad, I agree with you — don’t worry about EE when you have Taveras in CF. It’s hard to say what to do with Hairston at SS. Other than that, this team is actually pretty damn good top to bottom.
Oh yeah, this is also a huge part of why I’m so dead-set against trading Homer. If you trade him no (or, especially, this past offseason), you’re trading him at the absolute rock-bottom of his value.
I know that these rock-bottom times are the times you feel like you just want to ditch a player for whatever you can get, but that is selling low and you’re going to lose those trades more often than not.
Buy low… sell high…
oops, I meant “If you trade him NOW” in my last post.
The only starting pitcher it really makes sense to trade is Arroyo. Teams will be interested in a veteran pitcher, you offload some salary and make room for Homer, who looks to be at least nearly as good and has a higher ceiling.
I miss A*** D***, the shift, lost opportunities, boredom, occasional power, and losing.
With EE, I think he needs to sit out when he slumps, as he goes deep down under for periods of time, and that hurts the team. It really hurts when you have a guy who can’t even find the general area of the ball when he’s down and under.
Maybe he’s bipolar, in which case you play him when he’s high, sit him when he’s low.
I don’t think trading any of the starters makes sense. I’m in no way ready to give up on Homer, but right now, it seems like the Reds only have five capable Major League starters. Right now, the Reds are contenders. If that changes, then talk trade, but don’t mess with the starting rotation right now.
Billy Beane is an idiot; anyone who trades Dan Haren is. If the A’s had Dan Haren and not Brett Anderson, they might be winning right now. Besides, even if Anderson pans out, Beane will trade him away for another 3 prospects that he’ll do the same thing with. Everyone thinks Billy Beane is a baseball god, I just don’t happen to buy it. Sorry, that has nothing to do with this discussion.
Walt should (and probably will) be patient with Edwin and see how he fares after coming back and then balance whether it’s worth trading him and bringing up Rosales, or if it would be better to hang on to him.
It’s a no brainer that EE is starting at 3b when he comes back. Edwin is a victim of being out while the Reds are playing really well. And, as RCR pointed out, he has a tendency to be fairly inconsistent… much like Brandon Phillips or Arroyo on the mound. I think it’s the perennial, “he’s going to be really, really great” that has stymied him. Granted, he’s put up where Brandon Larson and Willie Greene never could. And I don’t care about his demeanor, if the man is quiet, he’s quiet. No big deal. All that said, I’m pretty sure he’s never going to make an All-Star team. That’s the level of expectation there seems to be for him, but he hasn’t hit it yet.
I would like to know what other GM’s think of him. Again, I’m with RCR… I don’t openly advocate trading him, I’m just picking him as a major league talent that I’d most easily part with on this team for fair value. I’m fairly content to let this current team ride out the year, even if that means Rosales goes back to AAA.
Walt would have to be sick in the had to trade any starting pitching right now. Almost nobody is worth giving up the stability this rotation has given this team. Assess as needed next off-season.
[...] Redleg Nation has some interesting thoughts on Edwin Encarnacion. They probably don’t want to hear that I hope Edwin is soon on the [...]
A reminder for everyone, at the start of last year, EE was believed to be our best clutch hitter. Seriously, after watching Rosales trying to field some balls at third I realize the range that EE has over there. Yeah, he has the “occasional” bout with throwing the ball to first but look around and other than Zimmerman and Wright what other young NL 3B would you prefer?
Matt, I’m with ya. All in all, I’m good with riding this team out as is. We’ll know soon enough whether the LF platoon or the left side of the infield can be counted on or is a weakness. For now, I’m just enjoyng being above .500 and being relevant in the NL.
@Mad Hatter=== “what other young NL 3B would you prefer?”
Jeff Keppinger. Just kidding.
lol
all I have to say is
If it aint broke… dont fix it
The Reds are on fire
they have a winning energy
and Encarnacion always has this look on his face that says
“Geeze the only reason I’m here is cause im getting paid… DANG! wheres my freaking gatorade”
He’s never had a winners attitude, right now this team has one
and he’s gonna just bring back that lackidasical attitude
Billy Beane is an idiot; anyone who trades Dan Haren is.
It’s funny you say that…Haren was originally with the Cardinals…Jocketty traded him to the A’s.
If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it. Right now it doesn’t appear to be broke. Team wins/losses is the ONLY stat that matters. All the others stats are pure fantasy and should be taken with a grain of salt.
Case in point. I live in NE Florida. We have had 29″ of rain so far this year. That averages out to 6″ per month. Reality is we had 10″ over a two day period in Feb, 6″ in a two day period in lat Mar, and finally 13″ over the past six days. Every other day this year has passed without a drop of rain. Averages don’t tell you much.
This is my impression of EE, out of every 30 games he will go on a four or five game tear. You win those games going away. But not much from him the other 25 games. I like players who are more even keel without all the peaks and valleys. Although both types of players could conceivably have a very similar BA. I believe you hang more “W’s” with the consistent player.
All I know about JHJ is that when he is the lineup, the Reds win more often than they lose. To me that is a good thing. Can the same be said for EE or AD?
My knock on EE is the same as many who have brought it up – his fielding. Apart from that, he is my #1 choice at third. I’ve just seen too many times where he hasn’t fielded the ball cleanly or quickly and ends up throwing it away. This past series with Houston and what Tejada did should be proof enough how important good defense is. The team we have now, we can’t go out and give away runs, and more importantly, turn the momentum of the game to the opponent’s favor.
Amongst 3B last year, EE ranked 11 in ABs and 8 in HRs, yet was 14 in RBI and 23 in AVG (with 300 min ABs). in 12 PAs with runners on 2nd and 3rd he hit .111 with 2 RBI.
My point is that you can find numbers to support whichever stance you want to take. He may be the best we got, but in MLB he is just average. Which is still better than some, but not untouchable.
EE is far and away the best option at 3B. Yes, defensively he isn’t that good, but not everyone can have a David Wright. For his price tag, he is a great option to have. If he can bat in the .280 range with power and plate discipline, it is hard to find a better canidate. He is just about to hit his peak, it would be dumb to move him now. He just doesn’t show much emotion, not all guys do, but he still is an average with potential to be well above average in the near future. Now if he completely stinks it up the rest of the year….then maybe start looking around. It’s hard telling how much his injury affected him the beginning of this year.
‘Encarnacion always has this look on his face that says
“Geeze the only reason I’m here is cause im getting paid… DANG! wheres my freaking gatorade”
He’s never had a winners attitude, right now this team has one
and he’s gonna just bring back that lackidasical attitude’
This may be a personal attack but this statement is just plain dumb.
I just don’t see EE improving the W/L margin. How did the Reds do when he was playing? I really don’t know but I’m sure somebody will look it up. I believe, in general, people are more interested in team wins than they are in individual stats. So the bottom line is, what does a player contribute in terms of wins?
@Bogey:
The whole “wins are all that matter” reasoning is played. And flawed. Sure, day to day, you worry about wins. However, a teams record is not the best predictor of future success. That generally falls to run differential.
Also, while you give your “impression” of EE, you have no actual facts to back it up. Facts are important if you want people to believe you.
‘in 12 PAs with runners on 2nd and 3rd he hit .111 with 2 RBI.’
You can’t be serious. 12? Could you find a smaller sample size? It’s hard to blame RBI’s on Edwin when no one gets on base in front of him.
I think part of the issue people have with EE is that he started well and folks expected him to improve off that base. Instead he seems to have plateaued somewhat and as Jason pointed out at the top of the thread he may be what he is going to be at this point. That having been said he clearly is our best option even with the defensive issues and if he can just repeat what he did last year, I will feel much better about the offense.
And this is off the EE thread, but if they are going to make a move I would really hope they are looking at any SS on the market.
Fun with math: .111 in 12 PA means he walked 3 times as 1/9 = .111, so he also had a .333 OBP. Additionally, if he had one more hit it would be .222 with a .416 OBP. Two more hits and he’d have hit .333 with a .500 OBP. As Kurt noted, this is why sample size is important.
Assigning W-L record to individual players just doesn’t work. It’s not even a fair assessment of a starting pitcher’s value…how can it be a fair assessment of an individual in the lineup?
If you want to base decisions on that statistic, I believe Ramon Hernandez would be the team’s starting 1st baseman and Votto would be the backup.
Amongst 3B last year, EE ranked 11 in ABs and 8 in HRs, yet was 14 in RBI and 23 in AVG (with 300 min ABs).
Where did those other third basemen bat in the order and who is hitting in front of them?
Did any of them have Corey Patterson leading off?
GregD,
You’re exactly right. I think Walt Jocketty’s better than Billy Beane, but that was an idiotic move. But at least they weren’t trading away 14-15 game winner Dan Haren. They got Mark Mulder who did win 16 games for them in 2005 and was an all-star the previous two years. They didn’t know he was on the way to a sharp decline after ’05.
But still, I agree… dumb move.
I don’t agree with anyone who thinks Edwin has a lackadaisical attitude. Just because the dude doesn’t wear his heart on his sleeve after an error or a bad AB doesn’t mean he isn’t trying. Everyone who’s ever been around him will tell you he is very tough on himself and internalizes a lot of the mistakes he makes. Don’t judge a guy by the look on his face… Besides, would you rather him act like Carlos Zambrano and fly off the handle when he messes up? Then we’d be talking about how Edwin gets rattled easily and his head is out of the game. Give the guy a break.
“Did any of them have Corey Patterson leading off?”
Who would be dumb enough to let that happen?
Anyone who believes EE is lackadaisical hasn’t been paying attention. From pre-game work, to offseason conditioning and winter-league play, and to laying his body out for diving stops, EE is the consumate ‘ball-player’ in my opinion. I, for one, cannot wait to see what this team will become once EE is back in the lineup.
He’s never had a winners attitude, right now this team has one and he’s gonna just bring back that lackidasical attitude.
This is utter bullcrap. You’re simply making that up. Entirely. The ONLY thing that’s ever been said about Encarnacion is that he works his ass off. Sorry, but it really irritates me when people turn player’ shortcomings into moral failures, and MAKING UP attitude problems to support position.
EKyRedsFan- Calling Billy Beane is a joke for a team in the bottom five in team salary every year and to stay competitive, making the playoffs 5 five of the last 8 yrs he makes the moves that are necessary to keep his team stocked w/ young talent. Trading away Zito, Hudson, Mulder, Haren and Street all in order to keep salary down before they all leave in free agency. Billy Beane has been very successful w/ what he has to work with.
I agree with all that. But I don’t think Zito was actually traded, was he?
yeah,…but….how does his inexplicable inability to throw the baseball (80+% of his errors are throwing ones) jive with the Reds new-found emphasis on defense & speed? Also it’s interesting that the AD & JR.–less Reds have outhomered & outscored last year’s Reds to date. Could same thing happen with EE gone or in lesser role? O:)
Re: comment 35 and 37… while picking apart the 12 plate appearences in the year with runners on second and third (the sample is what it is for the year), what’s being left out is the stats that put EE somewhat in the middle of the pack for 3B… it was being argued there are very few better than EE. Outside of HR’s, there were at least 10 3rd baseman ahead of him in RBI and AVG. I don’t know about OBP. Isn’t that the larger point? Greg pointed out the lack of runners on and place in line-up. So, what would you use to show that EE is in fact one of the top 4 or 5 3B in the NL? (at the plate only)
EE IS the starting 3B for this team. While he has some defensive liabilities (I’m being kind) Rosales is not always a sure thing over there either. I’m not aware of anyone in the pipeline whose ready to come up and challenge him for the job.
Now is EE absolutely indespensible to the sucess of this team? No, but he is an asset when he’s in the lineup and healthy and according to WJ, right handed hitters with some pop are hard to come by these days.
BTW I also agree with Chris. EE has always been known as a hard worker.
Thank you Matt.. that’s my point. His stats are very average and in some cases below average amongst 3B in MLB. Like I said before, I’m all for EE being our 3B and I don’t buy into the lackadasical or bad attitude thing either. I believe he works and tries very hard. Just don’t make him out to be some stud 3B or even say he is our next best hitter, right behind Joey Votto.
What is it about baseball that causes people to not realize that just because A follows B, A didn’t CAUSE B. I swear it drives me crazy how easily baseball fans fall into this trap.
Anyway.
I will repeat what I said yesterday on this subject: I like EdE and as the original post points out, he’s probably a lot better than we realize. Finding a good 3Bman is hard. It’s probably the position that gives the most teams problems.
That said: this might be THE year for the Reds. The next few weeks are critical and if the Reds have a productive June, it behooves management to upgrade the team as much as possible for THIS year. You can’t always wait until next year. The way to improve this team is to improve the offense, and right now, I’d look at four positions that could be better: 3B, SS, LF, or C. (Obviously, and for different reasons, Taveras, Bruce, BP, and Votto are staying where they are. And while our catchers have been great, if the Reds could pick up a slugging catcher–not sure who’d that be–I’d do it.) So, if need to find a big bat somewhere to stick in the middle of the lineup, it makes no sense to not include possible 3Bman in that search. This doesn’t mean I don’t like EdE.
Slugging catchers are almost as hard to find these days than slugging 3Bmen
Just out of curiosity, which players do we think might realistically be available that could help out the Reds?
Left field is fairly easy to find a good player from a bad team who can be plugged in there and provide an offensive spark, but good and available 3B or SS are pretty hard to find. For example, is this year’s model of Orlando Cabrera really an upgrade?
per14, I agree with your post completely, except I would include the catcher spot in the positions that aren’t going anywhere. There are indeed some slugging catchers out there that are better hitters than what we have, but that would also change the dynamic of the pitching staff, who have pitched well with the current battery. I doubt that is something they would be willing to chance, especially with Ramon and Hannigan both hitting decent enough anyway. But outside of that.. YES, my thoughts exactly.
Slugging Catcher= Victor Martinez. I can’t get with the “win this year or else it may not happen.” Maybe I should given the Reds’ place in the market, but I’d rather see a stable team that finishes above .500 several years in a row, and then see how the league shapes out before committing to “one year.” The Reds are just getting out of the shadows. Unless we win the WS this year, I’ll have a lot more fun as a fan watching them playing winning ball for 5 years than one. I understand you can’t count on long term success all of the time, at least not w/o spending serious cash. That’s a question to wrestle with. Can the Cincy payroll ever really sustain a winning team over a given period of time?
It’s apparent Chad that when evaluating a player you look at the HR total first, then it ends there. Very little else matters.
Heh.
And you base that absurd statement on what, exactly?
I bet you base your evaluations on batting average first, am I right?
What is it about baseball that causes people to not realize that just because A follows B, A didn’t CAUSE B. I swear it drives me crazy how easily baseball fans fall into this trap.
Post hoc ergo propter hoc. It’s the single most frustrating thing about discussing anything on the internets.
Great points made in this thread on both sides, by the way. Good discussion (with some notable exceptions). I hope to have more time later this evening to chime in.
Thanks, at least you called me notable!
No, he bases his evaluation by the look on the players face.
Why do so many fans look down upon the single most efficient way to score runs in this game?
When ESPN asserted that chicks dig the long ball, they didn’t meant exclusively.
I want a stable team for several years as well. I wouldn’t “mortgage the farm” just to, say, win 90 games and make the wild card instead of 85 wins and finishing second.
But if I have team already that can win 90 games, then I do whatever I can to improve it and put a 95-100 win team out there. (Right now, the Reds are a 92 win pace.) Because those teams win pennants and championships and those things endure.
Your in luck, because when Edwin is healthy; Rosales is going right back to where he belongs and that is on the bench. Nice guy or not, he couldn’t hold Edwin Encarnacion’s jock as a player.
And you’re right. People are hyping up Rosales WAYYY too much. He’s a glorified Tim Hummel. Remember Tim Hummel? Barely, right? He’s Tim Hummel with dark hair and an annoying habit of showing up the opposition with his hustle. I prefer big leaguers on my team. Edwin is a big leaguer, and a fine one when he’s hot.
Also it’s interesting that the AD & JR.–less Reds have outhomered & outscored last year’s Reds to date.
Outscored. Yes.
Outhomered. No.
Through 46 games
2009 team: 1568 at-bats, .258 AVG, 51HR, 308 K’s
2008 team: 1545 at-bats, .260 AVG, 52HR, 272 K’s
So the 2008 offense had 1 more HR in 23 fewer at-bats PLUS, more SURPRISING 36 fewer strikeouts.
I thought A*** D*** was the only one who struck out on this team?
I didn’t mean you, RCR!
Apparently, BP is not in the lineup again tonight:
Taveras
JHJ
Votto
Hernandez
Bruce
Nix
AGon
Rosie Red
Cueto
And in the outscore department through 46 games, the 2009 team has scored 11 more runs than last year’s team. I’d attribute most of it to:
- Bruce is outhitting Griffey
- Votto is outhitting himself
I was just joking, Chad.
Greg, don’t forget Hernandez/Hannigan outhitting the sh*t out of Ross/Bakko
@Matt (comment 49),
I don’t think anyone here is arguing the EE is one of the best 3Bs in the game. Rather, they are arguing that he is better than he gets credit for. If you look at the first comment on this post, you’ll see that I argue that, overall, he is pretty average. He is, however, clearly above average offensively at 3B as any reliable numbers will tell you. For example, if you look at wOBA, which is a pretty nifty stat for encompassing everything a player does at the plate you will see that last year, Edwin was 7th in all of baseball among third basemen. That’s not bad. I mean, he isn’t A-Rod or David Wright, but he can hit better than most of the people at his position. Also, using unreliable statistics like you did doesn’t boost your argument or support your point. It just makes it look like you have to try REALLY hard to find ANY evidence that backs up something you have already decided is true.
I am a EE fan and I think there is no doubt he should be the 3B, but making the routine play is important too and is throwing errors are a concern. It has nothing to do with smiling and drinking milk.
The smiling thing doesn’t mean anything to you, but there are many Reds fans who would not agree (if they are being honest with themselves), and some of them have checked in on this thread.
But I agree that the errors, etc, are a concern.
#65-So hustling is showing up the opponent? Now that is the dumbest thing I’ve heard.
Brandon Phillips shows up the opposition way more than Rosales and doesn’t hustle half as much (and I like Brandon, but those are the facts).
I saw that Bailey gave up 11 hits last night. When he throws strikes he is very hittable, that is why he won’t throw strikes when he’s up with the big club. I like EE, I don’t like Bailey.
Fielding Pct:
Rosales at 3b: .943*
EE at 3b: .942
JHJ at 3b: .923
League Avg: .961
*Rosales dodged 2, if not 3 clean errors in one game a couple weeks back.
Range Factor/9 at 3b:
Rosie: 1.84
EE: 2.62
JHJ: 2.49
Avg: 2.75
The point: None of these guys can be considered “good.” But Rosales isn’t much better than EE with the glove, and shouldn’t, at least, be near as good with the bat.
Caveat: Small sample size. If anything, EE’s ’09 numbers are better than his career norms. Rosie’s FPct is consistent w/ his minor league numbers; his RF should improve.
#65-So hustling is showing up the opponent? Now that is the dumbest thing I’ve heard.
You must be reading the thread from the bottom up. There’s much dumber stuff.
My brother and his friend are big detractors of EE. Mostly due to his defense. I have no idea about his attitude. I’ve never met the guy and I’ve never read where other Reds players have said has a bad attitude (someone please point me to an article if his teammates have made such statements).
I really would have liked to see him get some time in left field this spring. His defense hasn’t really improved over the last few years it seems, but he’s still the best option at 3rd right now due to his bat.
Maybe the Reds should sign “Smilin’ Bob.” That guy always had a smile on his face and I bet he would hustle.
Do we agree that Janish should be the one sent down when EE returns?
NO. I’d send down Rosales.
Anything I have ever heard is that EE works his tail off on defense. His hitting will come around, it always does. It’s not too long ago when EE had a well over .300 BA with runners in scoring position.
The biggest gain in having EE in the lineup is that he will give protection to Jay. Jay isn’t getting too many good pitches most of this year because of the lack of quality hitters behind him.
And really who is on the trade market that is better than EE? NONE! Beltre, no thanks. Cantu, no thanks (and you think EE stinks on defense), Atkins, no thanks.
EE will come back and be an asset to this team.
Janish is a stud at short and he has good OBP skills.
I’d send done AGon but that’s just me, Janish would make up for his lack of offense in the long run with improved range at short IMHO
Reality though the odds are leaning toward Janish with Rosales a close second choice.
[...] Nation is an even bigger defender of Edwin Encarnacion than I [...]
As others have said:
1. EE’s without doubt our starting 3Bman.
2. He works hard, the Reds’ coaches have talked about this for years.
His defensive lapses frustrate all of us, but I don’t think he gets enough credit for his quickness at third base – he makes a lot of fabulous plays, last year he shocked the Yankees with his leaping catches of line drives, his vertical quickness.
What do the defensive metrics say about his range ?
343 – Most metrics I’ve seen have him average to a little below average on range.
Some of you say Encarnacion’s hitting will come around…hmm to what? .260-.270? Not bad I would agree, but I don’t think his return puts this team over the top.
There’s two thing that make me lack confidence in Encarnacion. Maybe I’m off base but here they are.
1) He seems to get down to easily. I don’t want to say he’s weak mentally. He’s in the big leagues. He’s had some success, but after all the years of lackadaisacal play by some of the Reds sluggers, most Reds fans are starving for guys who show they care. Sure that doesn’t make you a better player. I love watching Derek Jeter play, and he rarely shows emotion.
But I don’t know why some of you guys are so suprised people aren’t Encarnacion believers. He started off terribly this season and it sounds like he was legitmately injured. But once he went out the Reds offense eventually started picking up and they just seemed to start playing some scrappy ball….which leads me to my second point, sort of.
2) I wish I could find a sight and some motivation to study Encarnacion’s stats over the past few years…but has he he ever hit well like in the beginning of the season? What are his numbers with runners in scoring position? Is he a clutch hitter? I’ve always felt he isn’t.
He’s just an inconsistent player. There’s something for consistency in the majors. I wonder…could a very consistent player with less talent and not as good stats be more valuable to a team then a guy with better numbers, more talent, but less consistency? Seems like a crazy question, but it might be worth a thought.
In the end…I don’t really have the answer. A lot of you guys are stat guys and rightfully so…baseball is all about the stats.
But just watching a guy play gives you the best ability to judge a player. I think a lot of us Reds fans watch Encarnacion, and we just don’t think he’s a guy to count on as one of your cornerstones for the next 2-3 years…His potential, and I believe he still has potential, is where all of our arguments probably stem from.
I don’t think his production has been that impressive. Hairston Jr. the everyday answer over Encarnacion? Probably not…but right now the team is playin well without EE and it seems like Hairston Jr. works the pitcher a bit better then EE would, and that something the Reds desperately need after years of guys striking out and not working the opposing pitcher.
@ comment 72: The question was posed by Madhatter (comment #23), “other than Zimmerman and Wright what other young NL 3B would you prefer?…” that to me says someone is making an assertion that EE is one of the top 3B. I know you didn’t make that argument, but that was what the stats were directed toward.
Next, I myself didn’t list any stats, I simply tried to reframe the original agrument that RCR made from manipulating stats instead of actually addressing the point being made. As RCR said in his post with the numbers “My point is that you can find numbers to support whichever stance you want to take.” People use stats on this site both ways frequently. Maybe we need a list of stats that “matter” and only use those. I’m all for Bill Jamesian analysis, but at some point, it gets rather reductionistic. And one has to be careful with how one uses them… the difference between saying “picking a pitcher in the first round is like not picking at all” versus “picking a pitcher in the first 10 picks hasn’t historically worked out.” (a previous thread from a few weeks back based on good stats). At the end of the day, even stats will blow up on you from time to time… things that “are most likely” to happen don’t, and thing that are “unlikely” do. All of what we discuss eventually comes down to opinion, and we’re all entitled to our own.
I think what really happened here is that in the discussion, it got confusing as to who was responding to who…
I appreciate your very first post on the thread. It was well said and and you made good points. It isn’t a lot different that what I said:
I clearly said I like him, I want him to play 3B. I only said I could stomach trading him first among our good players and disagreed with the notion of putting him in a class with David Wright and Zimmerman for now.
It was said before; when Edwin slumps, he really slumps, and he’s nearly worthless. I’m constantly amazed how a fielder can make the absolutely amazing plays in the field that Edwin can make, then throw the ball into right field/the dugout/the stands as often as he does. He’s a defensive liability, and it’s pretty hard to argue that he needs serious improvement if he’s going to stay at third.
But hey, he’s a home-grown guy who hits a decent amount of home runs and walks a ton. His fielding atrocities and massive plate slumps can be overlooked because everyone knows that home runs are totally fascinating! It’s as if it’s in Redleg Nation’s charter that he MUST be fiercely defended!
Just when I think you couldn’t say anything dumber than what you’ve already produced…you go and totally redeem yourself! Good work!