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	<title>Comments on: Vada Pinson or Orlando Cepeda?</title>
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	<link>http://redlegnation.com/2009/05/11/vada-pinson-vs-orlando-cepeda/</link>
	<description>A Cincinnati Reds Blog &#124; Dishing out hot, creamy bowls of bloggy goodness</description>
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		<title>By: pinson343</title>
		<link>http://redlegnation.com/2009/05/11/vada-pinson-vs-orlando-cepeda/#comment-1653749</link>
		<dc:creator>pinson343</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 May 2009 21:36:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://redlegnation.com/?p=6609#comment-1653749</guid>
		<description>Great stuff, Mike, I will save it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great stuff, Mike, I will save it.</p>
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		<title>By: mike</title>
		<link>http://redlegnation.com/2009/05/11/vada-pinson-vs-orlando-cepeda/#comment-1651999</link>
		<dc:creator>mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 May 2009 17:39:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://redlegnation.com/?p=6609#comment-1651999</guid>
		<description>pinson343 I think you&#039;ve asked the best and  most difficult question and part of what Bill James is implying when he talks about different skills fading with age and how a players comps change as they age. 

What matters more career OPS or career totals??
I&#039;m going to throw a twist into the question as well

What matters more peak performance or career 

So for example, Pinson had some great seasons early in his career. 
From 1959-1965 his OPS+ was 124 with an average of over 20 SB, 20 HR, 10 3B, 35 2B, and 90 RBI

That is a solid 7 year peak. 
So when evaluating him how much do we weigh his last 7 seasons where he had a 94 OPS+ averaging 10 HR, 20 2B and his speed had almost vanished? 

honestly when I try and compare players from the past I don&#039;t look at totals stats like 2B, 3B, SB, HR, RBI, none of it. The main totals stat I look at is Runs Created. 

Players with very long careers should for the most part be rewarded not penalized for their longevity. I say this but of course if you&#039;re playing 3 more seasons batting .190 you should retire. 

Pinson is a great example even if his performance level did not drop dramatically. 

Here is your question with numbers (I should point out that I&#039;m not ignoring defense it&#039;s just not easy to find #s and that OPS is a TERRIBLE metric for players like Pinson because it doesn&#039;t include SB but that&#039;s part of what I&#039;m going to show) 

Pinson had a career OPS+ of 110. 257 players in major league history have 110 OPS+ or better with at least 7000 PA. If you look at Pinson that way you think there is no way he should be in the HOF. 

but if we look at one of the best totals stat, Runs Created (a totals stat) we see a different player 

Pinson had a 1393 Runs Created. Only 102 players have more. 

That&#039;s a huge difference. From 257 major league players better to 102. 
Add defense into the mix and Pinson is among the 75 best position players.

and for fun
Runs Created by Reds CFers
RUNS CREATED                    RC     
1    Vada Pinson                 995   
2    Edd Roush                   941   
3    Bug Holliday                631   
4    Eric Davis                  563   
5    Gus Bell                    542   
6    Ken Griffey Jr.             473   
7    Cy Seymour                  457   
8    Cesar Geronimo              379   
9    Dummy Hoy                   358   
10   Bobby Tolan                 327   

Runs Created above positional average
RCAP                           RCAP    
1    Edd Roush                   222   
2    Eric Davis                  157   
3    Ken Griffey Jr.              99   
4    Vada Pinson                  96   
5    Cy Seymour                   88   
6    Bug Holliday                 74   
7    Johnny Bates                 53   
8    Charley Jones                31   
9    Chick Hafey                  24   
10   Jon Nunnally                 22   

and like Steve had done for his article about Reds SS
from Bill James book and the top 100 Center Fielders of all time. 
the Reds

#7  Jr 
#15 Ed Roush
#18 Vida Pinson
#30 Cy Seymour
#33 Eric Davis
#38 Pete Browning
#58 Gus Bell
#109 Johnny Bates 
#111 Bug Holiday (I would put him higher) 
#117 Bobby Tolan</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>pinson343 I think you&#8217;ve asked the best and  most difficult question and part of what Bill James is implying when he talks about different skills fading with age and how a players comps change as they age. </p>
<p>What matters more career OPS or career totals??<br />
I&#8217;m going to throw a twist into the question as well</p>
<p>What matters more peak performance or career </p>
<p>So for example, Pinson had some great seasons early in his career.<br />
From 1959-1965 his OPS+ was 124 with an average of over 20 SB, 20 HR, 10 3B, 35 2B, and 90 RBI</p>
<p>That is a solid 7 year peak.<br />
So when evaluating him how much do we weigh his last 7 seasons where he had a 94 OPS+ averaging 10 HR, 20 2B and his speed had almost vanished? </p>
<p>honestly when I try and compare players from the past I don&#8217;t look at totals stats like 2B, 3B, SB, HR, RBI, none of it. The main totals stat I look at is Runs Created. </p>
<p>Players with very long careers should for the most part be rewarded not penalized for their longevity. I say this but of course if you&#8217;re playing 3 more seasons batting .190 you should retire. </p>
<p>Pinson is a great example even if his performance level did not drop dramatically. </p>
<p>Here is your question with numbers (I should point out that I&#8217;m not ignoring defense it&#8217;s just not easy to find #s and that OPS is a TERRIBLE metric for players like Pinson because it doesn&#8217;t include SB but that&#8217;s part of what I&#8217;m going to show) </p>
<p>Pinson had a career OPS+ of 110. 257 players in major league history have 110 OPS+ or better with at least 7000 PA. If you look at Pinson that way you think there is no way he should be in the HOF. </p>
<p>but if we look at one of the best totals stat, Runs Created (a totals stat) we see a different player </p>
<p>Pinson had a 1393 Runs Created. Only 102 players have more. </p>
<p>That&#8217;s a huge difference. From 257 major league players better to 102.<br />
Add defense into the mix and Pinson is among the 75 best position players.</p>
<p>and for fun<br />
Runs Created by Reds CFers<br />
RUNS CREATED                    RC<br />
1    Vada Pinson                 995<br />
2    Edd Roush                   941<br />
3    Bug Holliday                631<br />
4    Eric Davis                  563<br />
5    Gus Bell                    542<br />
6    Ken Griffey Jr.             473<br />
7    Cy Seymour                  457<br />
8    Cesar Geronimo              379<br />
9    Dummy Hoy                   358<br />
10   Bobby Tolan                 327   </p>
<p>Runs Created above positional average<br />
RCAP                           RCAP<br />
1    Edd Roush                   222<br />
2    Eric Davis                  157<br />
3    Ken Griffey Jr.              99<br />
4    Vada Pinson                  96<br />
5    Cy Seymour                   88<br />
6    Bug Holliday                 74<br />
7    Johnny Bates                 53<br />
8    Charley Jones                31<br />
9    Chick Hafey                  24<br />
10   Jon Nunnally                 22   </p>
<p>and like Steve had done for his article about Reds SS<br />
from Bill James book and the top 100 Center Fielders of all time.<br />
the Reds</p>
<p>#7  Jr<br />
#15 Ed Roush<br />
#18 Vida Pinson<br />
#30 Cy Seymour<br />
#33 Eric Davis<br />
#38 Pete Browning<br />
#58 Gus Bell<br />
#109 Johnny Bates<br />
#111 Bug Holiday (I would put him higher)<br />
#117 Bobby Tolan</p>
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		<title>By: pinson343</title>
		<link>http://redlegnation.com/2009/05/11/vada-pinson-vs-orlando-cepeda/#comment-1651578</link>
		<dc:creator>pinson343</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 May 2009 05:11:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://redlegnation.com/?p=6609#comment-1651578</guid>
		<description>Buckner gets a bum rap, it always annoys me. The lead had already been blown, by Schiraldi and Stanley.

Buckner was a very good player, early in his career with the Dodgers, the Reds/Dodgers rivalry was at its height, and he was the Pete Rose of the Dodgers in terms of being a fiery competitor, a tough guy leader. 

With the Red Sox he was an outstanding RBI man, they wouldn&#039;t have been in the 1986 WS without him.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Buckner gets a bum rap, it always annoys me. The lead had already been blown, by Schiraldi and Stanley.</p>
<p>Buckner was a very good player, early in his career with the Dodgers, the Reds/Dodgers rivalry was at its height, and he was the Pete Rose of the Dodgers in terms of being a fiery competitor, a tough guy leader. </p>
<p>With the Red Sox he was an outstanding RBI man, they wouldn&#8217;t have been in the 1986 WS without him.</p>
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		<title>By: earl</title>
		<link>http://redlegnation.com/2009/05/11/vada-pinson-vs-orlando-cepeda/#comment-1651204</link>
		<dc:creator>earl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 May 2009 01:45:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://redlegnation.com/?p=6609#comment-1651204</guid>
		<description>I always liked Bill Buckner and felt bad that it was him that had to live with that play.  Calvin Schiraldi and Bob Stanley blew that game as much as him but people only remember that play.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I always liked Bill Buckner and felt bad that it was him that had to live with that play.  Calvin Schiraldi and Bob Stanley blew that game as much as him but people only remember that play.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark in CC</title>
		<link>http://redlegnation.com/2009/05/11/vada-pinson-vs-orlando-cepeda/#comment-1651194</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark in CC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 May 2009 01:42:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://redlegnation.com/?p=6609#comment-1651194</guid>
		<description>Suprisingly an argument can be made for Bill Buckner with 2715 hits.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Suprisingly an argument can be made for Bill Buckner with 2715 hits.</p>
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		<title>By: earl</title>
		<link>http://redlegnation.com/2009/05/11/vada-pinson-vs-orlando-cepeda/#comment-1651173</link>
		<dc:creator>earl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 May 2009 01:25:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://redlegnation.com/?p=6609#comment-1651173</guid>
		<description>Al Oliver is another player whose hitting stats are similar to Pinson that never really gets mentioned much.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Al Oliver is another player whose hitting stats are similar to Pinson that never really gets mentioned much.</p>
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		<title>By: Glenn</title>
		<link>http://redlegnation.com/2009/05/11/vada-pinson-vs-orlando-cepeda/#comment-1651054</link>
		<dc:creator>Glenn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 May 2009 00:20:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://redlegnation.com/?p=6609#comment-1651054</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m suprised to see Hoblitzel mentioned.  He was from my hometown of Parkersburg, WV.  He can still find his descendants living there.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m suprised to see Hoblitzel mentioned.  He was from my hometown of Parkersburg, WV.  He can still find his descendants living there.</p>
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		<title>By: pinson343</title>
		<link>http://redlegnation.com/2009/05/11/vada-pinson-vs-orlando-cepeda/#comment-1651050</link>
		<dc:creator>pinson343</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 May 2009 00:20:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://redlegnation.com/?p=6609#comment-1651050</guid>
		<description>Thanks, Mike, I didn&#039;t know exactly how much I needed to include for the Mays statement. Interesting stuff. 

One question that comes up is: What matters more, career OPS or career totals ?  Durability is of course a big factor in career totals, Vada had that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, Mike, I didn&#8217;t know exactly how much I needed to include for the Mays statement. Interesting stuff. </p>
<p>One question that comes up is: What matters more, career OPS or career totals ?  Durability is of course a big factor in career totals, Vada had that.</p>
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		<title>By: mike</title>
		<link>http://redlegnation.com/2009/05/11/vada-pinson-vs-orlando-cepeda/#comment-1650932</link>
		<dc:creator>mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 May 2009 23:27:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://redlegnation.com/?p=6609#comment-1650932</guid>
		<description>pinson343 you&#039;re right. And you don&#039;t even have to go that far. The only player to have more 2B, 3B, HR and SB than Pinson is Mays

even if I lower the values a bit it&#039;s still hard to find many players with more
this is a strange list of players, but the only players with...
SB &gt;= 285, HR &gt;= 235, 2B &gt;= 465 and RBI &gt;= 1150

Bonds, Mays, Dawson, Biggio and Pinson

replace RBI with 3B and the only player with more than 285 SB, 105 3B, 465 2B, and 235 HR are Mays and Pinson

Mays had a lot more HR and a lot more RBI but all the other categories are similar

Pinson is 5th on the Reds all time double list, 5th on the all-time Reds 3B list and 10th on the all-time Reds HR list.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>pinson343 you&#8217;re right. And you don&#8217;t even have to go that far. The only player to have more 2B, 3B, HR and SB than Pinson is Mays</p>
<p>even if I lower the values a bit it&#8217;s still hard to find many players with more<br />
this is a strange list of players, but the only players with&#8230;<br />
SB &gt;= 285, HR &gt;= 235, 2B &gt;= 465 and RBI &gt;= 1150</p>
<p>Bonds, Mays, Dawson, Biggio and Pinson</p>
<p>replace RBI with 3B and the only player with more than 285 SB, 105 3B, 465 2B, and 235 HR are Mays and Pinson</p>
<p>Mays had a lot more HR and a lot more RBI but all the other categories are similar</p>
<p>Pinson is 5th on the Reds all time double list, 5th on the all-time Reds 3B list and 10th on the all-time Reds HR list.</p>
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		<title>By: pinson343</title>
		<link>http://redlegnation.com/2009/05/11/vada-pinson-vs-orlando-cepeda/#comment-1650773</link>
		<dc:creator>pinson343</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 May 2009 22:30:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://redlegnation.com/?p=6609#comment-1650773</guid>
		<description>PS to above. I read somewhere that only one person in ML history has more career runs, hits, 2Bs, 3Bs, HRs, RBIs, and SBs than VP:  Willie Mays.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>PS to above. I read somewhere that only one person in ML history has more career runs, hits, 2Bs, 3Bs, HRs, RBIs, and SBs than VP:  Willie Mays.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: pinson343</title>
		<link>http://redlegnation.com/2009/05/11/vada-pinson-vs-orlando-cepeda/#comment-1650687</link>
		<dc:creator>pinson343</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 May 2009 22:00:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://redlegnation.com/?p=6609#comment-1650687</guid>
		<description>This is amazing to me because from the ages of 10 thru 15, I had a running argument with a Giants fan about how is better, Pinson or Cepeda.  It&#039;s easy to guess which side I was on.  

I can&#039;t offer much beyond the above analysis. In simulated leagues, how much emphasis is placed on speed and defense ? Cepeda could hit for average and power, Pinson was not a power hitter. But Pinson was a very good (arguably great) CFer, and his being a 20/20 HR/SB guy was very unusual at that time. His speed is underrated, in his prime he was clocked from home plate to first base in 3.3 seconds.

For the 1959 thru 1965 period, I&#039;ll assert that Vada was the superior all-around player. But he did fade after 1965. Not having Frank Robinson hit behind him and be around as his best friend hurt his productivity and attitude. Then he broke his leg with the Cardinals in 1969, and was never the same, though he continued his  &quot;good year every other year&quot; pattern in his 30&#039;s in the AL. 

Cepeda, in contrast, had a resurgent year with the WS winning 1967 Cardinals, and became a hero in St. Louis. 

If you mainly go by OPS, Cepeda is the clear choice. 
If you consider everything, well, I&#039;m biased.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is amazing to me because from the ages of 10 thru 15, I had a running argument with a Giants fan about how is better, Pinson or Cepeda.  It&#8217;s easy to guess which side I was on.  </p>
<p>I can&#8217;t offer much beyond the above analysis. In simulated leagues, how much emphasis is placed on speed and defense ? Cepeda could hit for average and power, Pinson was not a power hitter. But Pinson was a very good (arguably great) CFer, and his being a 20/20 HR/SB guy was very unusual at that time. His speed is underrated, in his prime he was clocked from home plate to first base in 3.3 seconds.</p>
<p>For the 1959 thru 1965 period, I&#8217;ll assert that Vada was the superior all-around player. But he did fade after 1965. Not having Frank Robinson hit behind him and be around as his best friend hurt his productivity and attitude. Then he broke his leg with the Cardinals in 1969, and was never the same, though he continued his  &#8220;good year every other year&#8221; pattern in his 30&#8217;s in the AL. </p>
<p>Cepeda, in contrast, had a resurgent year with the WS winning 1967 Cardinals, and became a hero in St. Louis. </p>
<p>If you mainly go by OPS, Cepeda is the clear choice.<br />
If you consider everything, well, I&#8217;m biased.</p>
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