Loading ...Baseball Prospectus analyzed the Jeff Keppinger-Drew Sutton deal on Tuesday, and more or less said that Walt Jocketty was doing the Astros a favor for Sutton is 26 and not really a prospect. To quote:
“Between some modest amount of speed and pop added to his switch-hitting, he (Sutton) could stick as somebody’s utilityman someday, but effectively, this is an exchange that sent the Reds somebody no more than a Keppinger wannabe for the original article. If there’s a scorecard on this kind of deal, it more probably involves Walt Jocketty doing Ed Wade a favor, and maybe that matters for something later on this summer, when the Astros are dead while the Reds still have ambitions to entertain.”
The real question in my mind is that the Reds are almost a wasteland when it comes to major league ready middle infielders. I’ll go back to roster construction again. We need a right handed bat off the bench and somebody who can field in the middle infield, and Keppinger can do that. Keppinger is a second baseman and has a good hitting record. Yet, we let him go for someone like him who’s not as good.
Is Keppinger a good fielding shortstop? No; he’s an adequate second and third baseman, but he did just as well as Hairston did last year and Keppinger can hit. He didn’t hit last year, but you may recall he was hitting well before his injury. He didn’t hit upon his return, but I can’t help but think he felt more pressure to return than our injured everyday shortstop, Alex Gonzalez. As we’ve seen this year, Gonzalez was assured of a job no matter how he plays. I don’t know Keppinger’s mind, but if I’m Jeff Keppinger, a player who’s struggled for opportunities over the years, chances are I’m going to come back from an injury too soon, ready or not.
And, no, Jerry Hairston, Jr., is not a shortstop. A good guy who can play multiple positions, but he’s not the guy we need playing for any amount of time at shortstop. Paul Janish can handle it defensively, but it will be a major surprise if he hits well enough to hold the job.
Our dearth of shortstops sent me back to a Bill James book, The New Bill James Historical Baseball Abstract, published in 2001. James rated the top 100 players by position in baseball history, and the Reds shortstop history is impressive.
Ranked # 6 all time was Barry Larkin (1986-2004). “Larkin is one of the ten most complete players in baseball history. He’s a .300 hitter, has power, has speed, excellent defense, and is a good percentage player. He ranks with DiMaggio, Mays, and a few others as the most well-rounded stars in baseball history…” Wow…
26….Dave Concepcion (1970-88)….quoting Sparky Anderson from The Sporting News….”it was Concepcion’s fluid motion in the field, his range, and his strong throwing arm that first attracted (Sparky) Anderson….”
50….Leo Cardenas (1960-68)…”deceptively strong, hit 20 home runs one season, over a hundred in his career, plus he could fire the ball 200 feet on target.”
53….Roy McMillan (1951-60) …”many who saw McMillan play suggested that he might be the greatest defensive shortstop ever.” “He has tremendous range; going left, right, and everywhere to turn base hits into double plays,” James quoting The Sporting News.
54…Eddie Joost (1936-42)…a light hitting, good fielding shortstop while with the Reds, who rejuvenated his career with the Philadelphia Athletics by becoming a power hitting, walks drawing, low batting average all-star shortstop.
71…Eddie Miller (1936-37, 43-47)…Former Red and Dodger 2b Tony Cuccinello said “the best I ever played with…he was one of the best fielders I ever saw…he was brilliant.”
95…Tommy Corcoran (1897-1906)…a barehanded shortstop from the 1890s who led the National League in fielding four times. He was noted for his ability to steal signs.
Short –term Reds in the top 100 include: 24. Tony Fernandez (1994); 33. Joe Tinker (1913); 43. Jack Glasscock (1884); 62. Denis Menke (1972-73); 97. Everett Scott (1926).
The players rated from 100-125 include: 113. Germany Smith (1891-96); 118. Billy Myers (1935-40) 120. Mark Koenig (1934) 122. Kurt Stillwell (1986-87)
James’s top five are Honus Wagner, Arky Vaughan, Cal Ripken, Robin Yount, and Ernie Banks.
If you count the years (discounting overlaps and partial seasons), for almost 90 years (out of 114, 1891-2004) the Reds have fielded one of the top 125 shortstops to play major league baseball. We’ve grown accustomed to it. It’s odd to feel we have a weakness there.
That quote about the astros is interesting. I don’t know what the Reds would have to give up but Carlos Lee would look pretty nice in left field and batting 4th. Just throwing it out there.
Before Alex Gonzales (and excluding Kurt Stillwell’s half season), I believe that every regular Reds shortstop made an all-star team at one point in their Reds career – dating all the way back to the 40s.
James should have ranked teams by positions. It’d be an interesting discussion about all time teams by position. The Reds most certainly should be in the top three at shortstop and catcher.
great article but I think you left off one of the best Reds SS ever
Frank Fennelly
He might have only played 500+ games at SS (only 10 Reds SS have more games) for the Reds but I’d probably rank him 3rd behind only Larkin and Concepcion.
I think Corcoran is over rated
I also think Felipe Lopez was under rated while he was here.
Here are the most Games played at SS as a Red
GAMES G
1 Dave Concepcion 2178
2 Barry Larkin 2085
3 Roy McMillan 1302
4 Tommy Corcoran 1163
5 Leo Cardenas 1138
6 Germany Smith 781
7 Eddie Miller 697
8 Billy Myers 693
9 Hod Ford 565
10 Virgil Stallcup 544
11 Frank Fennelly 518
12 Larry Kopf 507
and the most runs created above positional average
RCAP RCAP G
1 Barry Larkin 488 2180
2 Dave Concepcion 136 2300
3 Frank Fennelly 102 526
4 Leo Cardenas 39 1157
5 Billy Myers 32 714
6 Felipe Lopez 26 371
7 Joe Tinker 21 110
8 Jerry Hairston Jr. 20 80
9 Buck Herzog 17 372
10 Boob Fowler 8 70
obviously SS has been mostly a defensive position over history so the above hitting #s don’t tell the whole story, or even come close.
and I know this is going to sound blasphemous but I think the Reds SS history has been over rated
I think about Pittsburgh in particular and I only need to mention two names, Honus Wagner and Arky Vaughan. But then there is Jay Bell, Gene Alley, Glenn Wright and a handful of others
Or Boston, Nomar, Cronin, Valentin, Petrocelli, Pesky, and a handful of others
I think the Reds have even a better history at catcher and 2B
I’d also love to know why the Reds, throughout their history, have had a black hole in RF. Other than Robinson, Rose, Griffey Sr, Mike Mitchell, Sanders and Goodman what have we had at one of the most potent positions in baseball? I mean this is the position of Ruth, Ott, Aaron, Helimann, Jackson, Waner, Musial, and on and on
daedalus I think you’re suggestion is a GREAT one and one I had started the research into a few years ago.
I can glance at my incomplete research and make quick picks. Remember this is just quick thoughts. I think it would take some serious research.
1B:
Cardinals – Mize, Musial, Pujols, McGwire, Bottomley, Hernandez, Konetchy, Collins, White, Cepeda, etc, etc
Giants and Yanks not far behind
2B:
Astros – Biggio, Morgan, Doran and Helms
or
Dodgers – Jackie Robinson, Daly, D Lopez, Gilliam, Stanky, Kent, Herman, Lefebvre, Cuccinello, etc, etc
Yanks and Cardinals are not far behind and maybe the toughest/closest position. It would take serious research to choose between the Astros, Dodgers, Yanks, Cardinals, Tigers and Reds
SS:
Pirates – Honus Wagner, Arky Vaughan, Jay Bell, Alley, Wright, etc
3B:
Braves – Mathews, Chipper Jones, Bob Elliott, Sutton, Nash, Evans, Red Smith, Bob Horner, Jimmy Collins, etc, etc
no other team is really close for 3B
LF:
Red Sox – Ted Williams, Manny, Yaz, Rice, Greenwell, and Duffy Lewis
no other team is really close for LF
CF:
Yankees – Mantle, DiMaggio, Bernie Williams, Combs, Murcer, Rivers, etc etc
no other team is even close for CF
RF:
Yankees – Ruth, Henrich, Jackson, Maris, O’Neill, Winfield, Bauer, etc, etc
another position that’s not close
C:
Yankees – Dickey, Berra, Posada, Munson, Elston Howard, etc etc
I’m familiar with Frank Fennelly, who was a star shortstop for the 1880’s AA teams. Bill James doesn’t list him among his all-time 125 best, and I think it’s because he only played seven years. I don’t know why he quit so early, but he was a very good hitter, finishing twice in the top ten in runs and slugging percentage, three times in home runs and rbi, leading the league in rbi in his second season. Bill James also says he he and Bid McPhee made the best double play combination of the era; he estimates as many as 20 extra double plays per season over their peers…and this was for 140 game seasons.
Corcoran was a miserable offensive player. In fact, James says he’s the only major league player to score 1000 runs and have a career OBP below .300, which means he must have been something special in the field. He was third base coach and team captain for the Reds the last ten years of his career. In fact, James says his most famous incident was the discovery that the Philadelphia Phillies had buried a buzzer under the third base coach’s box that was used to receive signs stolen from behind the centerfield fence. It was discovered when the Corcoran noticed the Phils’ third base coach standing in a puddle of water (buzzer was under the water).
As far as rating by position; keeping in mind that these are Bill James’s subjective ratings, there’s no question the Reds have an outstanding history at shortstop. The raw numbers are icredible. However, just three of the top fifty played for any length of time in Cincinnati, and they’ve all come in the last 50 years…which is about 40% of baseball history.
But, to be fair, a lot of the guys listed at the top didn’t spend their whole careers at shortstop, and, frankly, I think baseball writers and historians have given them an unfair advantage in doing so. Ernie Banks played half his career at SS, as did Robin Yount. Cal Ripken, Jr., spent five seasons at 3B. ARod has been moved; Garciaparra had about eight good seasons at shortstop.
The Pirates have 1 and 2; I think Honus Wagner is the second greatest player of all time behind Babe Ruth, and if Ruth hadn’t been such a great pitcher, I’d start with Wagner in choosing my all time team. Arky Vaughan is second…but, Vaughan’s stats are also tilted in his favor for he had no decline era. He quit baseball in a dispute with management at age 31. James ranked Jay Bell at #31, Glenn Wright at #60, and Gene Alley at #91. Dick Groat, he ranked at #30; Frank Taveras, 115.
Let’s see…Wagner played shortstop about 12 years for the Pirates (they inexplicably had him play like a utility guy some years); Vaughan played 11; Groat, 11; Bell, 8; Wright, 5; Alley, 10; Taveras, 6; thrown in Freddie Patek’s one year…that gives them 64 years of 110 with service from the top 125..while, best at the top, the Pirates are about 25-30 years short of the Reds in top shortstop play.
For Boston: Garciaparra isn’t really listed at the time in the book…he’s projected at “top 20″, along with Derek Jeter, but Garciaparra has only played six full seasons…I’d have a hard time with him in the top 75. Joe Cronin is #8; Luis Aparicio is #11; Johnny Pesky is #20; Vern Stephens is #22; Rico Petrocelli is #32; Rick Burleson is #56; Freddy Parent is #63; Everett Scott is #97; Heinie Wagner, #111.
Okay, the years…Garciaparra has 6; Cronin, 7; Aparicio, 3; Pesky, 4; Stephens, 4; Petrocelli, 6; Burleson, 7; Parent, 6; Scott, 8l Wagner 6. That totals 57 years, about forty percent of baseball history, and nearly 50 seasons less than the Reds….the Red sox moved over half of these guys to other positions.
How about the Yankees…that seems like the team that would be hard to beat…#16, Phil Rizzuto; #18, Derek Jeter (estimated at the time); #48, Roger Peckinpaugh; #67, Frankie Crosetti; #77, Tony Kubek; #80, Lyn Lary; #94, Bucky Dent; #97, Everett Scott; #120, Mark Koenig;
The years: Rizzuto, 14; Jeter, 6 (stopping in 2001 with the Reds figures); Peckinpaugh, 9; Crosetti, 12; Kubek, 8; Lary, 3; Dent, 5; Scott, 3; Koenig, 4; That’s a total of 64 years. Not enough, nor enough at the top.
However, I think I may have found someone to surpass…the Giants, mainly going back to their early days. #14, George Davis; #21, Bill Dahlen; #27, Alvin Dark; #28, Dave Bancroft; #35, Monte Ward; #40, Travis Jackson; #41, Art Fletcher; #43, Jack Glasscock; #68, Chris Speier; #81, Al Bridwell; #86, Ed Bressoud; #106, Daryl Spencer.
Okay..the years: Davis, 5; Dahlen, 4; Dark, 6; Bancroft, 4; Ward, 5; Jackson, 11; Fletcher, 9; Glasscock, 2; Speier, 6; Bridwell, 4; Bressoud, 3; Spencer, 3. Well, may be I’m wrong…that’s 64 years. (who said old time players didn’t change teams a lot?)
This is obviously very informal, and not weighted to performance, but I’m more confident than ever that the overall package of our shortstop play contends with the best in baseball history. It’s not highest in peak seasons…that’s Honus Wagner of the Pirates, but that was for 11 seasons one hundred years ago.
wonderful post steve
One question when thinking about ranking the teams by position over history
ALL players that played for a team at that position? Or just looking at the best?
For example;
The Reds have an amazing list of great catchers and I think among the best teams in history at catcher in general.
Bench, Lombardi, Hargrave, Bailey, Taubensee (one of my favorite Reds), Clarke, Burgess, Peitz, Keenan, Mueller, Pavletich, etc etc
that list can compete with ANY other team in history at catcher
but if we look at every player, that has played catcher for the Reds we get some REAL duds and maybe one of the worst players to EVER play baseball.
Bill Bergen, Bill Plummer, Baldwin, Morgan Murphy, Joe Oliver, Dann Bilardello, Bo Diaz, etc, etc.
so do we just look at the GREATS for each team or do we look at ALL players?
The Reds have had some duds at SS as well. Everything I’ve seen shows Corcoran as one. As well as Germany Smith, Stallcup, Durocher, Hod Ford, Juan Castro, Pokey Reese, etc
so when we try and compare teams and rank teams by a position over history. Look at just the greats or include the Bergens, Plummers and Castros of the world
If you’re evaluating a team’s overall history, you have to measure the worst, too. However, by defintion, I think every team has had bad players at differnet times, and if the there’s lots of good players at a postions over a number of years, that would eliminate opportunities for really bad players.
One problem with using a metric like runs created is that I don’t think it always measures the importance of defense at certain times in baseball history. In 1968, when baseball offense was at it’s nadir, a shortstop like Ray Oyler can bat .135 for a World Series team and actually have value if he’s that good in the field. However, he’s driven off the team when the rules change and offensive value dictates more playing time.
Tommy Corcoran played during the dead ball era. His regular days at shortstop came in the late 1890’s and early 1900’s…defense mattered more then than now and I don’t think that accurately shows in the record. The same goes for Germany Smith…those guys played for nearly a decade each on contending teams.
Bill Bergen is a great example. When measuring catcher offense, Bergen may be the worst hitter in baseball history. But, he played 11 seasons as a regular catcher with a career batting average of .170. He was known to have a fantastic throwing arm…here’s a quick quote from wikipedia:
“Bergen was able to play for so long despite being such a terrible hitter by playing in an age where pitching dominated and by being a first-rate defensive catcher. Bergen ranks ninth on the all-time list for assists by a catcher with 1,444, despite never being a full-time player. In 1908, The Sporting News called him one of the best catchers in the game. His .989 fielding percentage in 1909 was a record (since broken) for a catcher.[4] On August 23, 1909, he threw out six St. Louis Cardinals on the basepaths, a record that still stands.[5] Charles Faber, in his book Baseball Ratings, called Bergen the third-best defensive catcher ever, behind Gabby Hartnett and Pop Snyder and ahead of Johnny Edwards and Roy Campanella. Total Baseball ranks Bergen the fifth-best defensive catcher of all-time.[6]”
At that time, EVERYBODY ran…and ran…and ran. Everybody bunted…third base was a defensive position, not an offensive position like it is today. Catcher’s gear was sparse…it was much different than today. So, our modern metrics sometimes miss the point of the game at the time.
This has nothing to do with Bergen, but I looked up triple plays the other day…the Reds have several triple plays in the 1880’s. With the bases loaded, the catchers would intentionally drop the third strike, and then start triple plays around the horn since the batter had to run and forces were on at every base…that was eventually outlawed…but, it sounds interesting.
We all know and love Concepcion and Larkin on this site.
I’m glad that Leo Cardenas Roy McMillan are getting their due hefe. Cardenas was part of an outstanding (arguably great) starting lineup that the Reds had in 1965 (most of it from 1962-1965). Too bad that team didn’t have much pitching.
Roy McMillan/Johnny Temple were a great defensive 2B/SS combination. Interestingly, the first year the Gold Glove was introduced (1957, I think) they only had one Major League recipient at each position (not one for each league). And Roy McMillan was the SS.
understood steve. But Bergen’s defense abilities were not enough to make up for his lack of offense. Just like RC is not a complete metric, neither is defense.
nice story about dropping strike 3
last week a pitcher dropped a fly ball to start a double play (or was it a triple play). It was a great play
I don’t think there is any way defense could make up for the lack of offense from players like Comiskey, Corcoran, or Germany Smith. Their offensive value was not only WAY, WAY, WAY below their position for the time. Their numbers make Patterson look like Babe Ruth. While their defense might have been great, they’d be lucky if they brought their overall comparison back to average
a little more on the idea of making up for lack of offense
If we look at Comiskey, Bergen, Corcoran, Smith, and Concepcion (a below average hitter)…and include at least basic defensive stats.
4 of the 5, all but Concepcion are among the worst hitters of all time
In each of their cases their defense was great
Lets look at WARP3, which includes defense and see how much each made up with their defense. These #s are for the players career not just their playing time with the Reds
WARP3
71.6 Concepcion (he wasn’t as bad as a hitter as the rest but look at that, his defense made him an allstar)
26.7 Corcoran (amazing that his defense was worth that much)
18.0 Smith (see Corcoran comment)
-1.2 Bergen (he made up a LOT, to be an average catcher, which is AMAZING considering how bad a hitter he was)
-13.7 Comiskey (he just was a terrible baseball player)
0 is average and to help put these #s in perspective
Larkin is at 98.8 and Bench is at 105.9
and while I’m here can I say what I’ve thought for years?
LARKIN FOR THE HOF
[...] be I’m spoiled and want too much. The Reds have had sixty years of quality shortstop play in Barry Larkin, Dave Concepcion, Leo Cardenas, Roy McMillan, and Eddie Miller. If we had one more [...]