Loading ...From John Fay:
Dusty Baker likes prospect Juan Francisco a lot.
“He can hit,” Baker said. “He’s what you want young hitters to be. He’s aggressive. You want a young hitter that you can tone down, versus tone up. You want guys to be selective and go deep in the count, but that’s something that comes with experience. With young hitters, you want to see them aggressive.”
Francisco, 21, is very aggressive — 62 walks and 353 strikeouts in 1,426 minor league at-bats.
“It’s hard to turn that flame up.”
The article goes on to talk about how well Francisco played in Winter Ball.
And there is one thing to say about his “aggressiveness”, he won’t be clogging up the base paths with all those horrible walks.
Everyone sings the praises of Drew Stubbs and hopefully they are true, but Francisco is going to be better. When they played together in Dayton, he was better head to head and is a lot younger.
As far as clogging up the bases with walks they thankfully traded that last August.
Mark, are you taking into account defense when you say that Francisco outplayed Stubbs? Apparently that is a huge part of Stubbs’s value.
Francisco can hit the ball a mile…when he hits it. Unless he learns some plate discipline, he’ll never be good. He’s not good defensively, zero range (which limits his options for other positons) and average (at best) hands.
Yep, those walks are a horrible inconvenience.
Juan Francisco = Wily Mo Pena?
probably more Adam Dunn Jr.
Francisco 3 minor league seasons – 316 G .303 OBP (48 BB)
Dunn 4 minor league seasons – 343 G .425 OBP (230 BB)
Francisco 327 K
Dunn 270 K
I hear what everyone says about walks to strikeouts. But the last two years the guy had 90 and 92 RBI. I want a guy in that spot swinging the bat, being aggressive and trying to drive in a run, I don’t want him taking a walk.
As far as defense goes I think Francisco was voted the best infield arm in the Reds system. And as far as Stubbs defense goes I don’t think we can have a 100+ strikeout guy who is in there for his defense.
“It’s hard to turn that flame up.” is in the lead for my favorite dusty quote of the year.
although i guess i will go along with dusty if he says it’s easier to teach someone to be more selective than it is to teach them to be more aggressive… that seems to make sense, but i have no evidence to back it up other than the fact that it at least seems like most guys tend to get more selective or stay the same as they mature, not get worse.
As far as clogging up the bases with walks they thankfully traded that last August.
How was he clogging the bases when he scored 40% of the time he got on base?
Francisco 3 minor league seasons – 316 G .303 OBP (48 BB)
Dunn 4 minor league seasons – 343 G .425 OBP (230 BB)
Francisco 327 K
Dunn 270 K
Thanks OK, Bill, Dusty will tone him down.
BTW, how do I make the eyes rolling emoticon?
The old story about the players from the Carribean is that they are taught to be aggressive at a young age because it is “IMPOSSIBLE TO WALK OFF THE ISLAND”. I think Pedro Guerrero said that. It has been true for many of the great Latin players few of whom have ever been know for great plate discipline.
“It’s hard to turn that flame up.” is in the lead for my favorite dusty quote of the year.
It might be his catch phrase of the year, rpm. He used it in describing Alonzo’s error. He said Yonder was being too aggressive and needed to turn “the flame down a little.”
It has been true for many of the great Latin players few of whom have ever been know for great plate discipline.
What’s true is that there have been very, very few great players (of any nationality) who didn’t have great plate discipline.
RBI totals, old scout’s tales, and Dusty Baker aside, YOU CANNOT BE A GOOD HITTER IF YOU SWING AT EVERYTHING.
Take a look @ the HOF membership – there are a lot of guys who struck out a TON. But what you won’t find are many guys who don’t show a 75-100 point difference between their AVG and OBP.
Through A ball, Francisco’s OBP is only 28 points above his AVG.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/HOF_register_position.shtml
Chad,
That is a different arguement in my mind. Ryan Howard and Adam Dunn, et al, wouldn’t have made a major league roster as little as 30 years ago. Players like that just didn’t have “value” as perceived at the time. Just because there aren’t a lot of those types of players in the HOF doesn’t mean a guy like that can’t succeed.
Now certainly everybody isn’t Vlad, but on the flip side, you’re not going to find any Jack Cust, Nick Swisher type players in the HOF either.
the name is Harmon Killebrew, hall of famer….and, he played 30-40 years ago; same type of player
We can also add Eddie Mathews, Willie Mccovey, Willie Stargell…
the name is Harmon Killebrew, hall of famer….and, he played 30-40 years ago; same type of player
Not sure I follow. Are you saying Killebrew, Mathews, McCovey, and Stargell were not patient hitters that would take a walk? If so, that is not accurate. All four fall into the 75-100 OBP over their BA range.
I’m saying those guys were like Dunn and Howard, and they did make major league rosters 30 years ago and reached the HOF.
With regards to the argument that latin players not known for ‘great discipline’; you don’t have to look any further than Pujols, Ramirez, Gonzalez, Ortiz, Beltran, Delgado, etc., etc.. to realize how ill-conceived that argument truly is.
No matter how much power a guy has, and no matter where he bats in the order — even if he’s your prototypical slugger batting 4th — he’s not helping you much if he makes an out 70% of the time he comes to the plate (i.e., .300 OBP).
Strikeouts (for a hitter) are outs, so of course they aren’t good. But they are NOT WORSE than other outs! Argue otherwise… I’d like to hear it. (And please, don’t use the phrase “make something happen”…)
Players can be very good, very valuable, even with a lot of strikeouts.
In fact, many hitters who have good plate discipline (generally considered a good thing) strike out more than average because they tend to go deep into counts.
I won’t bring up Dunn b/c I think we’re past the point of rational debate w/ him.
Let’s take Stubbs… if he can come up to the Reds and hit .260/.350/.430 and win Gold Gloves in CF, I’m happy… even if he’s striking out 100-140 times a year.
Dan, I’m w/ you on that…I’d GLADLY take the above line (from Stubbs in CIN) for the next 8-10years.
But we all know that he’ll never play a day of CF in CIN, not w/ the “toothpicked one” making out the line-up cards. Stubbs doesn’t like hit from the LO & prefers to be a little further down the card… So therefore, in Douche Bag’s mind…He must not REALLY be a CF.
Plus I’m sure Dusty feels that Stubbs needs to “turn the flame up.”
Maybe he could add a few toothpicks to fuel the fire.
Hard to start a fire w/ Douche drool saturating the wood toothpicks.
The Killer played when the average player was hitting .240. The average guy in Dunn’s career hits mid .260s. It is a significant difference.
Here’s a shocker:
BAKER ON what cleanup hitter Brandon Phillips must do to get better this year:
“He needs to be more selective, especially with runners in scoring position. That comes with concentration. Sometimes it seems he has made up his mind to swing before the pitch. Then he gets that reputation and pitchers are not going to throw him his pitch.”
I’m not all that high on Francisco. I feel he has a lot of development work to do still. He looks like he will end up being a 1B/DH on defense and one wonders if he will ever develop any plate discipline. I’m having a hard time seeing where he would fit defensively also with Encarnacion and Frazier ahead of him at 3B and Votto and Alonso ahead of him at 1B. The following is from BBA.
Francisco has a long stroke that isn’t conducive to consistent contact. His plate discipline is poor and he gives away too many at-bats by being overly aggressive. Scouts are worried that he could grow to Dmitri Young proportions if he doesn’t stay on top of his conditioning. His range already is below average at third base, and he’ll probably wind up at first base rather than the outfield.