Loading ...Some links from around the Reds blogosphere….
–Blue Collar Baseball notes that Sean Casey may be retiring from baseball. Redleg Nation wishes The Mayor all the best. He’s one of my personal favorites, and he was always a great representative of the Cincinnati Reds organization.
–Justin has done a quick and dirty analysis of shortstops in trying to answer the question of whether Barry Larkin belongs in the Hall of Fame. Larkin does well in the analysis; Davey Concepcion, not so much.
–Doug has some notes from the recent chat with BA’s JJ Cooper on the Reds system.
–Jonny Gomes loves Charlie Hustle.
–Daedalus says the Reds have a “quit at no cost attitude.” Heh. Plus, that’s a lot of ifs.
–Finally, remembering Billy Werber.
I have noticed that in many defensive analysis, the Big Red Machine scores very low….I’ve seen low scores for Bench, Morgan, Concepcion, and Geronimo, with high scores for Foster.
Frankly, it’s one of the reasons I have real trouble with defensive stats…especially going back in time and trying to reconstruct zones.
Zones can also be pitcher dependent….Earl Weaver instructed his pitchers to pitch inside to right handed hitters, and outside to lefthanded hitters to get them to hit to Brooks Robinson and Mark Belanger on the left side of the infield.
Also….while modern formulas may indicate better value of players than the “myths” of yesteryear, shortstops from the 60s and 70’s are vastly undervalued using today’s formulas.
I’m not sure which was more important in the that age, OBP or SLP, but the ratios have changed. OBP is still considered more important today, but SLP had picked up in recent years before the decline in power last year.
OBPs were extremely low during 60’s and 70’s and pitching dominated the game (frankly, one reason Dusty doesn’t understand), though there were some big power seasons, but not like the power explosion of most recent years.
I checked once…it was either the 75 or 76 all-star game where 7 of the 60 players selected were shortstops…not power hitting outfielders or high average first basemen. And these shortstops were not obviously pre-Jeter/Rodriguez/Garciaparra. Preventing runs meant something on defense, more than it does in current times. The game is drastically different from those days.
Sorry, but I don’t give any credibility to any method that says Bench, Morgan, Concepcion, and Geronimo were bad defensively, or even less than exceptional.
I’m willing to believe that TotalZone may be missing low on Concepcion.
But as I said in the piece, even if his defensive ratings were Mark Belanger-esque (who was quite possibly the best defensive player of the past 50 years), he’d just be getting to the point that he’s on par with Ozzie Smith. They were almost equal as hitters, but Smith has the playing time advantage.
I guess from my point of view, though, it’s a moot point. Concepcion’s no longer eligible, at least for voting.
The bigger point is that Larkin is clearly eligible, and should be elected next year. We can agree on that, right?
-j
Concepion’s “type” is the type typically chosen by the veteran’s committee (Reese and Rizzuto would be matches—shortstops from championship dynasties).
In fact, “no one’ is similar to Concepcion on similarity scores (not unusual for HOFers)….truly similar being a score of 950 or higher, simiilar being 900 or higher…..closest to being similar, 3 of the 10 are HOF shortstops (Bobby Wallace, Luis Aparicio, and Pee Wee Reese), 1 is a HOF 2b (Red Schoendienst), and 2 of the other 10 are second basemen, which indicates Concepcion is a good hitter for a shortstop.
He has a chance, but it will be awhile. two of the other 10 have HOF chances, too….shortstops Omar Vizquel and Bert Campaneris.
Thank-you, Steve. You saved me from an aneurysm over the ridiculousness of these shortstop numbers and the laughable comparison of Concepcion and Campaneris. For those of us who were there and saw both players, hahahahaha!
I think if Vizquel gets in then Concepcion has a chance with the veterans commitee. I really don’t understand why Alan Trammel isn’t in already. I was very surprised to see that Vizquel and Concepcion’s defensive rating was as low as they were.
Who was the best shortstop of the 70’s?
Aparicio is probably considered the best of the 60’s
Smith the best of the 80’s
Concepcion is the bridge….typical thought (of the historical voters) is who was the best fo the era?
I do think, and this may a perception of voters, that it’s possible that Concepcion was a better player because of his teammates. I don’t know that Concepcion raised the value of his teammates, say like Larkin did with the 90’s Reds.
However, the 70’s was probably the “shortstop” era of baseball….it seemed every team relied upon shortstops, and typical all-star shortstops were Concepcion, Larry Bowa, Bill Russell, Rick Burleson, Freddie Patek, Chris Speier, Don Kessinger, Tim Foli, Bert Campaneris, Toby Harrah, Bucky Dent, Robin Yount, and Mark Belanger.
Today, we ask “what gives?”, but it was a different game then. Teams were built around these guys to anchor defense.
(as for the above…Young didn’t play at all-star level til the 80’s, and then was moved to the outfield, and Belanger, despite being a marvelous fielder, was totally lost with a bat…)
so…in this era of shortstops…who was the best?
The players need to be judged in context.
The same holds true for another all-time Reds great, third baseman Heine Groh. When he played, 3b was a fielding position first (lots of bunts) and hitting second; 2b was a hitting position first, fielding 2nd.
He was a fantastic third baseman, but as he got old he was such a good hitter he was moved to 2b (with the all-time great Giants teams of the time).
Without understanding the context of the game, the voters are frankly, lost, and that’s why a knowledgeable veterans’ committee can correct oversights.