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According to a source here, the Orioles have made substantial progress over the past 24 hours on the prospective deal that would send Ramon Hernandez to the Cincinnati Reds for fourth outfielder Ryan Freel and a mid-level prospect.
There is a general manager’s meeting going on right now, but it’s possible the deal could be announced very soon. If there is any holdup, it could be because the Commissioner’s Office will have to approve the deal, since more than $1 million in cash will also change hands to subsidize Ramon’s salary….
Hernandez became expendable for a couple of reasons — the first, of course, being the quick progress of top catching prospect Matt Wieters. But the Orioles had become increasingly disenchanted with his lack of intensity behind the plate.
Anyone enthused about the 200-300 ABs Hernandez will get in a Reds uniform if this deal goes through? Me either.
UPDATE: As has been noted in the comments, it’s official now.
The Cincinnati Reds plugged a hole behind the plate, acquiring Ramon Hernandez from the Baltimore Orioles for frustrated utilityman Ryan Freel and two minor leaguers Tuesday.
The rebuilding Orioles also receive infield prospects Justin Turner and Brandon Waring. As part of the deal, Baltimore will give Cincinnati cash to offset part of Hernandez’s contract. He is owed $8.5 million next year.
“Ramon is a guy we put high on our list and stayed with it,” Reds general manager Walt Jocketty said. “We set our offseason objectives and one of the big things for us was to try to acquire a quality catcher. We felt there was something that we were lacking last year.
“Ramon was a perfect fit for our club because he provides good leadership — got very good reports that sent several scouts out to watch him this year. He provides good defense, handles a staff well, and will give us a good offense. And in our park, we think he’ll have a very good year.”
Read the entire article linked above for quotes from Dusty Baker and Ryan Freel. And for what it’s worth, here are Hernandez’s stats. Note the sharp decline over the last couple of years.
No
The deal is done. http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/8916168/LIVE:-Tuesday-updates-from-winter-meetings
It’s Freel plus two for Hernandez and 1 million in salary relief.
A defensive catcher Ramon Hernandez is not, but don’t discount him offensively.
He would have qualified as a Type A FA this year, so it is likely if the Reds decline his option and offer arbitration, which he declines, the Reds are in for at least a sandwhich pick next season.
Also, given the names that have been out there including Bengie Molina, Shoppach, Laird, Salty, etc. I’d rather have Hernandez. To me he is an upgrade over Shoppach. He’s comparable with Laird and won’t cost the propsects it would take to get Salty or Molina.
Ugh Ugh Ugh.
I’d love to be proven otherwise but this deal just seems flat out stupid.
Outfield is looking more and more like swiss cheese, not saying Freel was the glue holding it together but yea…
Would this remove $4mil from the books from Freel? Hopefully part of some other wheeling and dealing that Walt is doing.
A positive thought…at least we won’t have Bako behind the plate and Patterson in the outfield in the future!!!
I don’t mind this. If we resign Hairston, then we still have a ’super utility guy’, and now we add a catcher who hopefully will help out Hannigan. Catcher is one position where I don’t mind ‘veteran presence’ as long as our young guy can still get some playing time. I think about the raves Hernandez got for his job with that pitching staff in Oakland (Zito, Muldar, Hudson)and how he was given some credit for the Cy Young season Zito had. I think platooning these guys gives us an immediate upgrade at catcher, sort of.No big deal and nothing to be to excited about. Yeah, he’s older, but that works to Hannigan’s benefit for playing time. I’m willing to give this one a pass. I’m just curious who that ‘mid-level prospect’ will be.
Piggybacking on Phill’s comment: looks like we will be adding some outfielders shortly.
Freel’s $4M would be off the books, but Hernandez’s 2009 salary is $8M. So, it depends how much money the Orioles are sending.
If the cash coming our way is substantial, this will give us a nice pair of backstops. If there’s anywhere you need depth of quality, it’s catcher. That’s the lesson of the Bako fiasco. This is a decent addition and has no negative effect on our ability to fill our other holes. Just don’t give up a top 15 prospect to do finish it.
You know, Hernandez’s kids are Tejada’s godchildren and vice-versa and one of the reasons he went to Baltimore to begin with was to play with him…….
Based on the comments at the Baltimore Sun it doesn’t sound like this is a good deal for us. Here are two good ones:
“I agree with dumping Hernandez even if it is for Ryan D.L. Freel.”
“it’s a great trade. to get a live body for hernandez is remarkable. “
Goodbye to the hardest-playing Red since Pete Rose.
Hernandez is getting more than 200-300 ABs, especially at his salary. He’s the starter.
And he’s absolutely horrible defensive. Makes LLM look like Pudge Rodriguez.
Here’s my favorite comment from Roch Kubatko’s site at MASN: “i can hardly believe my ears that some sucker would pony up 1 major leaguer and 2 prospects for that bum ramon hernandez.”
Taken from Lt. Labner’s post on Redszone,
if you magically drop his 2008 numbers in at Catcher
YEAR NAME AGE PA EqA OBP SLG VORP
2008 Ramon Hernandez 32 507 .252 .308 .406 8.3
2008 David Ross 31 173 .267 .381 .366 4.9
2008 Javier Valentin 32 144 .254 .326 .411 2.6
2008 Paul Bako 36 338 .217 .299 .328 -6.9
And that’s in a bad year. Given that this will be a contract year, he’s had great numbers in the past, it’s apparantly payroll neutral.
What’s not to love?
Who would you rather have given the 200-300 AB’s to?
First, it isn’t payroll neutral because the O’s are only sending a million our way. That means altogether the Reds have Hernandez for 7 million and dumped Freel’s 4 million figure.
A second Hernandez to ponder and scratch your head about:
Livan Hernandez signed by reds.
http://blog.seattletimes.nwsource.com/mariners/2008/12/09/woods_to_indians.html
Reds added yet another RH starter in Livan Hernandez. http://blog.seattletimes.nwsource.com/mariners/2008/12/09/woods_to_indians.html
Geoff Baker announced his own mistake. He heard Hernandez and thought Livan when it was in fact Ramon.
I love this trade, depending on the prospect of course.
hate we gave up waring
I agree Mike. He had a really bad year last year, and in all likelihood won’t do any worse and will probably improve. And what’s with the love affair with Ryan Freel? The guy is guaranteed to not last the whole season, and is WAY more replaceable than a dependable, solid catcher. Even with the prospects and the extra money, this is a great deal. Especially considering we didn’t have to give up any top-tier prospects and the other catchers that were out there.
And as for bloggers on other posts, just go read the ridiculousness on Fay’s blog to realize you can’t trust all blog comments.
http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20081209&content_id=3708460&vkey=news_cin&fext=.jsp&c_id=cin
Prospects are Brandon Waring and Justin Turner.
“Waring, a 22-year-old third baseman, spent all of last season with Class A Dayton, batting .270 with 20 home runs and 71 RBIs in 119 games.
Turner, a 24-year-old second baseman, batted .289 with eight homers and 42 RBIs in 78 games for Double-A Chattanooga, after batting .316 in 33 games for Class A Sarasota.”
Given our depth at 3B and 2B these prospects seem expendable.
we are deep with prospects at third so i’m not to worried about giving up waring since we have prospects above and below him there and the ones who currently play short that are projected to play corners (IF or OF) in the future.
turner at 2B we can give up to because we still have a young phillips at second with again prospects at other IF spots that could move over.
overall I actually seem to be one of the few that likes the trade because Hernandez has talent and has really shown it in the past. He had a down year this past year but he has the talent to turn it around. Plus he is a veteran that will help Hanigan.
Remember he tore it up when in SD in a unhitter friendly park so this could turn out being a low risk high reward. By low risk I mean that we have Hanigan and that he has talent. Plus giving up two prospects and Freel who is always on the DL.
Freel can be replaced. Look if Gonzalez is healthy as SS you have Keppinger as a utility player and if we resign Hairston Jr. then you have two utility players that can play both Infield and Outfield.
If to get a live body for Hernandez is remarkable, getting a live body for Freel is a miracle. I like that part of the trade. We might some day regret letting Waring go, but as has been pointed out, we’re deep in 3B prospects (some of them currently playing SS).
Hernandez-Hannigan is a big upgrade over what we’ve had at catcher the last few years. Overall I like the trade.
One concern: why couldn’t Hernandez throw anyone out last year ? Is that his history ? (yes I could look it up)
I still don’t get what is/was wrong with David Ross? Once you consider the cost that gives you a great upside to Ross and I think Ross threw out a lot of base runners several years in a row. I am glad to get rid of Freel as he is always injured.
Ross would’ve been a better, cheaper option. But our manager never liked him.
I don’t know why anyone is expecting a turnaround for Hernandez at age 33. He’ll get a slight bump from coming back to the NL, and maybe there will be a contract year effect, but I can’t imagine how he’ll be worth $4M (the difference b/w him and Freel).
“He tore it up in SD” is a bit of an exaggeration (I was there). He played 210 games in two seasons. More importantly, he was 28-29 those years. Heck, Vinny Castilla led the league in RBI in ‘04 – that’s how much things can change.
33-year-old catchers are rarely good, and very more rarely better than they were when they were 32.
It’s official. Today the Reds announced the acquisition of C Ramon Hernandez and cash from the Baltimore Orioles in exchange for IF/OF Ryan Freel and minor league infielders Justin Turner and Brandon Waring.
http://www.straitpinkie.com
I like the getting Hernandez for Freel part. I don’t like giving up Waring. That being said, Hernandez is a significant upgrade over the catchers we had last year. I’m OK with the deal, but I’m not in love with it. We’ll see what over moves that Walt makes.
The main reason Hernandez signed with the O’s to begin with was to play with Tejada. They are mutual godfathers to each other’s kids……..how about a family reunion in the Red’s dugout?
This trade seems to be little more than the moving of bodies.
I’m not enthused about this trade but I’m still giving jocketty the benefit of the doubt, at this point. Let’s see what happens with the rest of the team this offseason before we erupt. If they do nothing else, now then is a time to yell.
O’s will send 3 mil not 1 mil
If not Hernandez, then whom? Corky Miller, Gary Bennett, and Paul Bako are in demand because catching is thin. Getting a legitimate catcher for a brittle Freel and 2 prospects at positions where the Reds have some depth is a good trade. Hernandez is in his walk year and will want to redeem himself after, apparently, skating through last season.
As I said above, David Ross.
Javy Valentin is a better option for the money, IMO.
Is Gary Bennett really in demand? He had all of 21 ABs last year. Corky has played in 132 games in 8 seasons, and Paul Bako lucked into the only team dumb enough to give him 300 ABs.
Has anyone heard if Farney is going to Baltimore with Freel? I really liked the way that guy played…
QUOTE:
Based on the comments at the Baltimore Sun it doesn’t sound like this is a good deal for us. Here are two good ones:
“I agree with dumping Hernandez even if it is for Ryan D.L. Freel.”
“it’s a great trade. to get a live body for hernandez is remarkable. “
————————————————————————————
Perhaps the O’s online fans are just as inherently negative and short-sighted as a lot of my fellow Reds fans are. Good! I was starting to get worried.
Ross would’ve been a better, cheaper option. But our manager never liked him.
————————————————————————————-
You mean David Ross, the career .222 hitter? Didn’t he stink up our backstop for long enough?
Hard to get thrilled about this deal. Can’t imagine that Hernandez will do any better than Hanigan could have.
BA OBP SLG OPS
2008 AVG ML C .255 .324 .389 .713
2007 Hernandez .258 .333 .382 .715
2008 Hernandez .257 .308 .406 .714
Career Hernandez .263 .326 .421 .747
2008 Reds Catchers .234 .330 .351 .681
2008 Hanigan .271 .367 .365 732
Career Minors Hanigan .294 .383 .372 755
Hernandez will be 33 next season, he hasn’t hit well since he had a nice run from 2003-2006 at ages 27 -30 where he put up OPS’s of .789, .818, .772, and .822. A rebound to that level at age 33 would be tough. He’s here for $8M this season and we’ll most likely get an average catcher for that, and it is pretty much a given that his $8.5M option for 2010 will not be picked up, so he’s probably here for one year and he cost two decent mid-level prospects.
We’ve got to go get some OFs. Right now we got Dickerson/Hopper/Burce starting with Anderson/Cumberland/McDonald competing for the last two spots.
We just spent an extra $4M on next season and didn’t improve the club much if at all. Hope Walt’s got something much more impressive cooking.
David Ross? Been there. Done that. His one good year, 2006, was an aberration. Look, Bako was, is, and always will be a brutal hitter. His main job, and any catcher’s main job, is to catch. Is the backstop in that foxhole with the pitcher? Does he block the plate or does he shy away from the contact? Does he throw well enough, along with the staff holding runners, to keep the running game at bay? The reason Miller, Bako, Bennett, Zaun, Sal Fasano, Mike Redmond, Raul Chavez, et. al. seemingly are around forever certainly isn’t for their hitting. It’s because they do all of those things I mentioned well enough to be wanted by some team. I bet a lot of catchers are considered the best teammates because of their selfless play.
i’m with the o’s fans, to get a live body for a 32 year old catcher who barely scratched together a .700 ops and can’t play defense is an early christmas gift. if it was for freel straight up, sure, because freel is equally worthless at this point.
but why give up the depth in the minor leagues?
i certainly don’t see this as a huge loss for the reds, in terms of cash or prospects, but when you’re getting no value in return, why give up anything?
>>Outfield is looking more and more like swiss cheese, not saying
>>Freel was the glue holding it together but yea…
the OF is currently Bruce, Dickerson and Hopper
which would be the worst OF in the major leagues.
There is nobody else on the 40-man roster who can even play the OF with the exception of Votto.
the Reds need offense and a leadoff hitter so they trade a guy who can get on base and lead off for a 32 year old declining catcher?
The offense is going to suck
Mike’s right. They needed a catcher, but not really THIS catcher. No way a catcher making $8 million is going to sit behind Ryan Hanigan unless Hanigan hits .400/50/150. Dusty likes Hernandez too much.
Walt’s going to have to get not one, but two or even three outfielders this winter, and the Reggie Taylor types aren’t going to cut it. They need to acquire at least one potential all-star, plus a league-average bat with a slick glove, and a bench guy. Maybe the bench guy is Hairston. Whatever the case, Walt can’t sit on his hands or this team will have ok pitching and worst offense in the majors.
I don’t care about losing Freel, he’s often injured and reckless anyway. A replacement for him is easy to find.
My concerns are that there is much talk about strengthening the defense up the middle. This doesn’t do it. Hanigan is the back up, they aren’t going to pay Hernandez $8M to sit. But that still isn’t my main problem with the deal…
I think it shows the team has diverted from the plan AGAIN. If we were going young, trading Turner and Waring makes no sense.
Turner was the best 2B in the organization, at least until we see more of Alex Buchholz. Turner could open the season at Louisville and possible be big league ready this year.
Waring was probably the second or third best 3B.
He strikes out a lot, but has shown the ability to get on base and has played 3B and 1B.
As for depth at 3B in the organization, I don’t believe Frazier ends up a 3B, I think he ends up an outfielder (with the Reds current OF situation, if I were Frazier, I’d be begging to move to the outfield). Francisco makes EE look like a Gold Glover and has zero plate discipline….and Soto is barely above rookie ball. Lot’s of questions there, IMO.
If it had been Freel for Hernandez even up, I’d have no problem with it. But to give up a player at the weakest position on the team, take on salary, give up two pretty decent prospects for a catcher that needs a “change of scenery” because he supposedly gave zero effort last year, who plays bad defense, is coming off a bad offensive year, and is 33?
Seems like short term thinking to me and doesn’t improve THIS YEAR’s team that much.
Agree wholeheartedly with Bill and, as you’d expect with the outlay of players, the Reds got substantial money in return: $3 million. That means the Reds will be adding only $1.5 million in 2009 salary (above Freel’s contract) along with the $1 million buyout for 2010.
I guess I can live with that. But the point about stockpiling depth AND Hernandez being a complete dog defensively AND no other team chasing him in a year of catching need means it’s a very iffy deal.
“I think it shows the team has diverted from the plan AGAIN. If we were going young, trading Turner and Waring makes no sense.”
I suppose this is my biggest concern about the Reds right now. I don’t think this is a bad move at all…IF this is part of loading up for a serious run this season. Unless I see two of the following names being acquired to go along with this, then I don’t trade prospects for one year’s service: Beltre, Dye, Tejeda, Furcal, etc. Are we building from within or are we buying a winner right now? I think either is possible, but if you do a ’smattering’ of both then you get a ’spattering’ of….well, you get the idea. I really think with two well placed trades we could compete for this division and beyond right now. Personally, I hope this is the route that is taken because I’m just tired of sub-par. I know it’s not the popular sentiment around here, but it’s my viewpoint. But I would wait for another year if I knew there was a serious plan in the works. I’m beginning to feel like I’m stuck in a Who song: ‘meet the new boss, same as the old boss’. Either get aggressive in the market, or see what the kids like Hannigan can do full time. Just quit the half-way nonsense.
The reason I hate the trade is this.
He will probably be the starting catcher over Hanigan because he is making 8 million and he could be the worst defensive starting catcher in the majors. Last year:
1. He was #1 is steals allowed (99 in 123 attempts)He allowed 80% of runners to advanced.
2. He was 3rd in passed balls with 10.
3. He was fourth in errors with 9.
4. His fielding percentage was .988, maybe the worst among starting catchers.
Here are some #s.
These are projected 2009 performance, first Bill James’s projection then Marcel.
Personally I think the trade is pointless and does not improve the team in any way. I also have renewed fears that the Reds will continue their cheap ways and carry three catchers on the active roster.
Projected OPS
James/Marcel
na/.762 Castillo
.739/.748 Hanigan
.741/.742 Hernandez
essentially Hernandez is projected to hit almost identical to Hanigan.
.891/.800 Bruce
.814/.851 Dickerson
na/.728 Hopper
.700/.697 Freel
I wonder what the big difference in projection for Bruce is
and funny to think that Hernandez is projected to hit better than Freel.