Loading ...I don’t really believe that John Fay has the finger on the pulse of what the fans are saying about this team, but small portions of this article makes a lotta sense:
What they are ticked off about is management’s reluctance to turn the page.
What they are ticked off about is that Corey Patterson’s still on the team. I’ve got nothing against Patterson. But he’s hitting .196. It’s Aug. 23. He has as much chance of being on the Opening Day roster for 2009 as I do.
If Castellini and Jocketty wanted to win points with fans, they should have designated Patterson for assignment, called up Drew Stubbs and played Stubbs, Chris Dickerson and Jay Bruce in the outfield for the rest of the year.
Is Stubbs ready? I’ve got no clue. But he has to be on the 40-man roster next year, and it’s time to find out.
Patterson isn’t the only guy who should be sent out. Josh Fogg is in the starting rotation. Let him go and put Matt Maloney or Homer Bailey in there.
Ryan Hanigan should be catching five days a week.
Turn the page.
That’s what fans want.
First things first: what the fans want is very rarely what is best for the team. If the Reds took advice from the mouthbreathers who call in to WLW, the Reds would be even worse than they are.
Secondly, bringing up Drew Stubbs is a remarkably bad idea.
However, the Patterson, Fogg, and Paul Bako stuff is what everyone here has been saying since Opening Day.
Read the entire article. It’s clear that Fay really has very little clue what makes a good franchise, but it makes for good reading. Plus, it gives us something else to argue about discuss, as if we needed anything else. 
Big Bob watched the whole debacle. And today is an off day. I’d bet that there will be some fireworks today. Firings, call-ups, something to shake up the batch.
1 – Fay and other yearn for a youth movement. Take a look at the upper level of the minors. There’s not much left there that’s not already up.
2 – Fay would like to think that Patterson is not with this team next year, but then Fay is not a favorite of Dusty Baker either. Baker was able to go over Krivsky’s head. We’ll see if he can do it again with Jocketty.
3 – Arroyo will continue to be valued internally (and paid) as a #2 starter, yet will continue to pitch like a back-of-the-rotation guy.
4 – Too much value also being placed on utility guys like the Keppingers, Hoppers, Hairstons, etc. and expecting any (or worse, multiple) of these players taking on starting roles in 2009. The team is stronger with these guys taking on a bench role, but weaker if they are the best options at various starting positions.
Geat post GregD.
What is the risk in bringin Stubbs up? I’ve said for the entire year that he would hit as well, if not better than Patterson AND play better defense. He’s been raking since his AA promotion.
Here’s my thoughts:
1.) DFA Patterson, Bako, Fogg…replace them with some young guys for evaluation.
2.) DFA or Trade Weathers. He won’t be here next year either, bring up Adkins.
3.) Leave Stubbs in AAA, he’s not ready, although he has looked great since his callups. If he stuggles at Cincy then his confidence is shaken, when he could be feeling good coming off what he has done this year.
4.) Make a decision now if Votto is your 1B and EE is your 3B. If you doubt their play at their current positions then move one to LF.
5.) Shut down any of the guys who are hurting. It makes no sense to play guys that are not healthy, it will only put them further behind in the spring.
I agree w/ you down the line except for one important thing, bruble — Totally agree that we need to shut guys down (especially Cueto and Volquez!) BEFORE there are troubles.
So if you’re going to shut them down, you need someone to pitch! I’d keep Fogg around to eat up as many innings as needed.
As for position players, yeah, I agree — let’s see what we’ve got. These games can tell you MUCH more than spring training games against other minor leaguers can tell you.
GregD with some much-needed objectivity. Nice to see.
Dan:
You said something that I thought was an obvious point, but apparently is not so obvious to professional sportswriters: You can’t shut down the new guys without having some old guys on the roster to play in their place. That’s why a guy like Fogg will have a job in the latter part of every season. I agree about Hanigan, let him play. I don’t think Stubbs should be rushed to the Reds, but with the way this season is going I could be convinced. But honestly, guys: don’t you think there are other pieces of that bullpen that should be sent packing before Weathers? He’s everybodys whipping boy, but he hasn’t been that bad. I’m not saying he’s been good, but we have more dead weight than him. He could be dealt for something.
This team needs some big help to compete next year. If we don’t get a guy who can hit at least 35hr/100rbi next year, some pop from the right side coming off the bench and a real catcher (play Hanigan to find out if he’s the guy), we will find ourselves in the cellar again.
1) Great point on keeping Fogg around. So long as this injury to Cueto isn’t serious, it could be the best thing for him. But realistically speaking, they’re not going to shut down Edinson. At least not without reason. Anyone have contact information for him? Let’s get him to start feigning injury.
2) I think the Stubbs debate is best solved by taking the happy medium. Leave him in Louisville now and let him play in the playoffs. Once completed, then call him up. So far he’s had (roughly) 158 ABs at both AA and AAA. That’s not many, but what’s it hurting by making him a September call up? We need as much firepower as possible to knock Patterson out of this lineup.
3) Not to beat a dead horse, but what about the Phillips to SS debate? Within the next two years we’re going to see some of our minor-league infielders pressing for time…and most of them are SS in name only. Valaika and Frazier, by most accounts, are destined for 2B or 3B. Yes, Phillips is arguably the best 2B in the league, but having a strong farm system is only useful if those players actually get to play. I hope Valaika and Frazier can stick as SS…but let’s not hold our collective breath.
4) Edwin to LF? Ryan Braun lite? Maybe.
I don’t know about Edwin to LF, but Votto has played LF significantly in the minors and did last year when he came up. E-5 has also played some 1B, as recently as last year.
How about Kepp at 3rd, Gonzo/Hairston at SS, Phillips at 2nd, and EE at 1st?
And I hate Paul Bako playing as much as the next guy, but we can’t just up and DFA him. We still need him on the roster, but as a BACKUP. Hanigan needs to play 5 out of 7 days. Patterson is worthless though. I bet if we called up Drew Anderson of Shaun Cumberland, they would do much better than he is. It’s too early for Stubbs though. Let him start next year in AAA and THEN see if he’s ready.
Agree!! These are all good questions and we just don’t know the answers. Why not try these things out some?
–EE in LF
–EE at 1B
–Votto at LF
–Phillips at SS (Personally, I think this would be huge, for all the reasons you named. In general, it’s just easier to find a good 2B than it is to find a good SS.)
I agree completely about dumping Patterson. You can slot Dickerson into CF or if needed Bruce can do it and let the veterans take left field or if they wanted to try expirementing with an infielder they’d have the option.
I don’t think they should dump a single pitcher. Chances are they dump a pitcher we’ll probably be seeing names like Coffey and Belisle back on the roster. Funny thing, the Reds bullpen ERA ranks 7th in MLB and 3rd in NL which is surprising for how overworked they’ve been this year.
Stubbs has barely been in AAA. Just as it would be crazy to annoint Chris Dickerson the starting centerfielder for next year off of what he’s done so far it’d be stupid to rush Stubbs with what he’s done as well.He’ll more than likely get the invite to big league spring training if he keeps knocking the cover off the ball.
As far as moving Edwin or Votto, they make a lot of errors. That’s what happens with young players. Most 24,25 year olds don’t hit the majors getting gold gloves.
Oh, one other thing, re: innings… Why hasn’t Affeldt started a game? Even once? I bet he’d like a shot at it. If he got 6 or 8 decent starts in, I bet that would make him another million on the free agent market.
And again, that could save wear and tear on the young arms that are the future.
All these comments ignore the major problem: Dusty Baker!! This team needs a big kick in the butt; not a so-called players manager like Dusty.
Affeldt’s been very good, by the way. Not that it mattered to the season at all, but that one was a good signing. (Random factoid about Affeldt… last offseason he was the only free agent last year under the age of 30. I think…)
I wonder where John Fay gets his ideas about what the fans are saying. I seriously doubt he has talked to any fans. Probably reads some of the comments on his blog and assumes that’s enough.
I wish Erardi would take over as beat writer.
OK, that brings me back around to another soapbox issue of mine… free agents.
By its very nature, free agency is for guys who have been around for a while. 95% of free agents are over 30. It’s also their first big chance to get a big, open-market contract.
Put that all together and what you get is this: Free agents are old and overpaid. OK, not all of them. But LOTS. How many free agent contracts become albatrosses that the GM is desparately trying to pawn off at the next trade deadline?
I guess my point is this — The Reds are not just one player away. They need many things, and their time horizon is probably a few years off.
This team needs good, young, up-and-coming players, NOT free agents. This is not a quick-fix situation.
I’m worried that Castellini and Jocketty are deluded and impatient (Castellini especially) and they’re going to act like they have a team that is one player away… and they don’t.
Applying veteran patches is a recipe for long-term mediocrity.
Trading for GOOD young players, before their value is fully realized (like getting into a bad neighborhood just before it turns around) is how you make killer deals.
All right… end rant. Thanks for listening…
Weathers? He’s everybodys whipping boy, but he hasn’t been that bad. At Cordero’s present rate he’s going to be considerably worse as a closer than Weathers was last year, and cost a lot more money.
I agree, I’m very scared that Jocketty gets the go ahead and spends $80mil on some 33 year old and then trades some of our young talent for another 33 year old, the team wins 83 games next year, Castellini declares a success, then the team stinks the next 4 seasons. This team has been patching with vets for the last 6-8 years…how’s that worked out?
Reds fan for life…why do you think the Reds need a hot head for a manager?
The Detroit Tigers have a no-nonsense Jim Leyland. Guess what? They’re 64-66 with one of the best on-paper offenses and put out a pretty ridiculous salary on the field.
Atlanta has Bobby Cox who is another no-nonsense guy. His team is 57-74(identical to the Reds).
Just because you think someone screaming and berating the media means they’re a good manager doesn’t make it true. The only two hothead managers I can think of that have a winning team are Piniella and Guillen. Both Chicago teams, both have a well put together team with a larger payroll.
I like that you use the term “mouth breathers” (one of my faves), but I think you kind of hit on something we should all remember.
“If the Reds took advice from the mouthbreathers who call in to WLW, the Reds would be even worse than they are.”
That includes everyone here. As much as we all think we’re right, social standing isn’t the only reason the people in the organization got their jobs. They are good at them, or at least better than people that don’t have their jobs. Maybe not absolutely knowing, for a fact, that everything this organization does is completely the opposite of what they should be doing is why I’m able to be a fan.
Oh, Belisle is out for the year, blew out his knee.
While a hot-head may not necessarily be the magic pill to solve the Reds woes, a manager who make smart decisions (or even one who simply doesn’t make bad decisions) would help stem the disease permeating our clubhouse. Poorly managed pitching and bad lineup decisions are only part of the problem. Maybe it’s only a personal belief, but the manager does hold some of the blame for poor fundamental play. The manager does hold some blame for clubhouse and team attitude. I’m not asking for a manager who religiously reads Baseball Prospectus, but simply one who doesn’t shoot himself in the foot. Corey Patterson is merely a microcosm of a greater problem.
I don’t think it’s asking to much to have a manager who pays attention to the game and the players who play it.
And maybe a fire-breather wouldn’t be a bad thing. As a Reds fan, and one who pays attention, I’m furious with the way this team is being managed day-to-day. Given the state of affairs, I think a manager who feels the same way would be appropriate. These men play baseball for a living. And all the “it’s-beautiful-game” talk aside, it is their job to play it to the best of their ability. Just as I think coddling an employee in the corporate world is a recipe for mediocre output, so to is complacency in managing an under-performing ball club.
Jim Leyland has one World Series ring from his days with the Marlins, one AL Pennant from his days with the Tigers, and 3 division championships from his days with the Pirates.
As for Bobby Cox? One season does not a manager make. Unless you haven’t been paying attention for the last decade and a half, you’d have to know that the man has 15 division championships, four NL Pennants, and a World Series ring.
I’d welcome either of them onto the Reds.
No, I don’t think screaming and berating the media is necessarily the way to go. But I, for one, think that the Cincinnati media has been a detrimental influence on the Cincinnati Reds. Again, see Adam Dunn as the microcosm. Berating the media (intelligently) isn’t necessarily a bad thing if you can do it with a decent argument behind you. I think the White Sox are winning in spite of Guillen and not because of him. So no, fire, pomp, and circumstance aren’t always the best way to go for a manager. But a little emotion might not be such a bad thing.
Phill – I didn’t mean to flame you here. I’ve gotten pretty worked up over the managing of the Cincinnati Reds.
I want the Reds to trade Weathers to the Mets. Those guys are desperate to avoid another collapse like last year. Wagner’s out 3 more weeks. Surely we could cherry-pick a decent prospect from them. Bring up Herrera or Roenicke to replace.
I like it Sultan. Makes sense.
Plus, we got 2 surprisingly good players from the Mets last year for like 6 weeks of Jeff Conine! (OF Sean Henry and an infielder named Castro – not Juan – I think it was.)
Ryan, I understand what you’re saying. I’ve got no problem with wanting a manager that makes better decisisions especially in regards to who gets playing time and how much. I think the problem I have with people wanting guys who yell is that it always starts with the assumption the team is lazy and doesn’t want to win. Dusty doesn’t have a ring(as a manager) but he’s got 3 divisional championships and one pennant.
The team Dusty had this year was bad. Part of it was his fault, Patterson. The other stuff like Griffey not even near his 07 numbers, Edwin not putting his normal numbers and actually declining, having to rely on utility guys as starters, injuries to position players and pitchers(one of them possibly his fault) and having 3 catchers who would be backups playing once maybe twice a week on any normal team. I’d like to see any manager get a winning team out of that. He is most definately to blame for fundamental errors. Things like how the players don’t seem to know how to field bunts or getting picked off constantly. Playing Patterson. I’m not trying to say Dusty is without fault or anything. I do however believe the Reds can be better next year starting with if Alex Gonzalez can be healthy and play. That allows Keppinger to go back to what he should be, a bench/utility man.
I wish there was a way for a reporter or someone to sit down with Brook Jacoby and just literally ask him “Why is it that the Reds can’t hit? Especially in RISP situations.” I mean has the team/fans overvalued some of the players so we are expecting too much or what is it?
Now that idea of Weathers to the Mets is one I like. He’s worth something to somebody.
Oh, and we have a good bench. Unfortunately they are starting for us right now.
Dan – I agree with a large part of what you wrote about FA. However, the Reds have a lot of flexibility going into this winter and can use FA to do what it is supposed to do i.e. provide even more flexibility (for July deals) and add depth. I don’t know what they will do, but I know they have probably more avenues than any other team (save the Rays) for improving their roster.
The Reds have 8 MLB ready starters in Harang, Arroyo, Volquez, Cueto, Owings, Belisle, Bailey and Thompson.
More likely than not at least two of those guys won’t be wearing Reds’ unis next year.
They could try to rid themselves of a few of the prospects like Bailey and Thompson for an established player like(Matt Holliday) to try to make the playoffs next year. Or they could center a package around Harang and get a few 25 year olds such as Matt Kemp and Blake DeWitt to build around guys like Bruce, Votto, Volquez and Cueto.
Either way, with the number of reliable 2-3 type starters on the market (Sheets, Penny, Lowe, Garland, with Lackey having a club option), the Reds may have the ability to trade or even package a Harang, a Bailey, or an Arroyo, depending on how the market shakes out.
I guess my point is this: FA isn’t the end all be all, but it could allow the Reds to add a FA arm, which gives them HUGE flexibility.
I’m excited to see what Jocketty can do.
Another interesting thing that I’ve yet to understand is that Dave Weathers passed through waivers.You would think he would draw the interest of ANY team trying to contend.
Probably reads some of the comments on his blog and assumes that’s enough.
Most of his posters are among the most uninformed minds in the Reds world.
In the back of my mind I picture Jacoby getting the ax this fall – maybe not fair, but this team underperforms with the bat – beyond not hitting, they are not patient and don’t work the count. Many’s the time I’ve seen the other team work Reds pitching and wish our guys would do the same.
Keep pitching veterans (Fogg, Weathers, etc.) until Oct 1st and bring up Belisle and Coffey with youngsters from AAA. Bring up Stubbs after the Bats post-season is over to give him a taste. If nothing else, he can play defense and hit a little!! I follow AA and AAA as close or closer than the Reds and there is some depth down there in 1B and OF and a little pitching (Lecure, Juckich, Manuel). SEND HOMERUN BAILEY back down to AA and build his confidence…it is destroyed (knee problem or not). AND LAST BUT CERTAINLY NOT LEAST…FIRE DUSTY BAKER and BRING UP RICK SWEET TO REWARD HIM FOR DOING SO WELL WITH YOUNG PLAYERS, this will automatically fix the other problem in that horrible name COREY PATTERSON = DFA!!!!
For years hey say in Sprng Training that we don’t need to worry about the ofense and every year we end up worrying about the offense and every two or three years fire the hitting coach.
Maybe it is the hitters and not the coach.
I would take Cox in a heartbeat but they can keep Leyland. I am suprised he hasn’t quit in Detroit yet. He has has quit on 3 teams without being fired. He quit in Pittsburgh when they got rid of their talent, he quit in Florida when they got rid of their talent, he quit in Colorado when they didn’t win. We don’t need a quitter.
Sultan-I totally agree, I hadn’t thought of that, we should tell Jocketty
Phil, my answer is to change the attitude we need a new kind of manager. I’m not going to comment on Leyland or Cox obviously they aren’t coming here. I wish we had not fired Mackanin but he’s gone and probably not coming back.I would like to see someone like Bobby Valentine or Larry Bowa but also think Sweet deserves a chance or maybe just to see Marty’s reaction, Buck Showalter.