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	<title>Comments on: Doubletalk</title>
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	<link>http://redlegnation.com/2008/06/22/doubletalk/</link>
	<description>A Cincinnati Reds Blog &#124; Dishing out hot, creamy bowls of bloggy goodness</description>
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		<title>By: GregD</title>
		<link>http://redlegnation.com/2008/06/22/doubletalk/#comment-1100555</link>
		<dc:creator>GregD</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jun 2008 19:11:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://redlegnation.com/2008/06/22/doubletalk/#comment-1100555</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t recall anything (complaint-wise from the broadcasters) with Patterson on Saturday.  0-0 bases loaded w/2 out in the top of the 7th...Encarnacion singles to make it 2-0.  Yankees bring in RH reliever to face Patterson.  Patterson hit the 2-Run HR.  

The incident that everyone (including George Grande) was questioning Baker was the at-bat earlier in the week vs. a LH reliever.  

So, the bench for these AL games is 2 catchers, Janish, and Hopper or Patterson?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t recall anything (complaint-wise from the broadcasters) with Patterson on Saturday.  0-0 bases loaded w/2 out in the top of the 7th&#8230;Encarnacion singles to make it 2-0.  Yankees bring in RH reliever to face Patterson.  Patterson hit the 2-Run HR.  </p>
<p>The incident that everyone (including George Grande) was questioning Baker was the at-bat earlier in the week vs. a LH reliever.  </p>
<p>So, the bench for these AL games is 2 catchers, Janish, and Hopper or Patterson?</p>
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		<title>By: Mr. Redlegs</title>
		<link>http://redlegnation.com/2008/06/22/doubletalk/#comment-1100445</link>
		<dc:creator>Mr. Redlegs</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jun 2008 16:07:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://redlegnation.com/2008/06/22/doubletalk/#comment-1100445</guid>
		<description>Then I don&#039;t think we&#039;re talking about the same incidents. I missed some of the Dodgers series but there was something in the Saturday Yankees game. I&#039;m 139 years old. Whaddya expect? Billy Werber memory? Bah.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Then I don&#8217;t think we&#8217;re talking about the same incidents. I missed some of the Dodgers series but there was something in the Saturday Yankees game. I&#8217;m 139 years old. Whaddya expect? Billy Werber memory? Bah.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris</title>
		<link>http://redlegnation.com/2008/06/22/doubletalk/#comment-1099977</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jun 2008 02:20:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://redlegnation.com/2008/06/22/doubletalk/#comment-1099977</guid>
		<description>No, the first instance that Baker is discussing was in the Dodger game on Tuesday (Cueto&#039;s last start). 

Bottom7:  Torre brought in Beimel with the bases loaded 1, out, and the Reds down 2.  Valentin hit for Cueto (questionable, since he can&#039;t hit RH at all, but I can&#039;t recall whether the PH was announced before the pitching change).  Javy chops one to Loney, the run scores, and the runners go to 2nd and 3d.

Now you have Patterson up with the tying/go-ahead runs in scoring position, vs. a tough lefty.  Both A. Phillips and Ross are on the bench at the time.

Welsh, Marty - everybody was shouting about &quot;where&#039;s the pinch hitter?&quot;   It was a big deal, and when asked about it, Dusty gave that crazy answer quoted above.

I just checked -- &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.baseball-reference.com/pi/p-pvb.cgi?n1=beimejo01#choice=&amp;bats=&amp;minPA2=0&amp;minPA=0&amp;orderbydir=DESC&amp;orderbydirb=ASC&amp;n1=beimejo01&amp;as=pitcher&amp;year_game=career&amp;opp_id=CIN&amp;orderby=PA&amp;orderbyb=Name&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Patterson was 1 for 13 against Beimel, going in.  &lt;/a&gt;Unreal.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No, the first instance that Baker is discussing was in the Dodger game on Tuesday (Cueto&#8217;s last start). </p>
<p>Bottom7:  Torre brought in Beimel with the bases loaded 1, out, and the Reds down 2.  Valentin hit for Cueto (questionable, since he can&#8217;t hit RH at all, but I can&#8217;t recall whether the PH was announced before the pitching change).  Javy chops one to Loney, the run scores, and the runners go to 2nd and 3d.</p>
<p>Now you have Patterson up with the tying/go-ahead runs in scoring position, vs. a tough lefty.  Both A. Phillips and Ross are on the bench at the time.</p>
<p>Welsh, Marty &#8211; everybody was shouting about &#8220;where&#8217;s the pinch hitter?&#8221;   It was a big deal, and when asked about it, Dusty gave that crazy answer quoted above.</p>
<p>I just checked &#8212; <a href="http://www.baseball-reference.com/pi/p-pvb.cgi?n1=beimejo01#choice=&#038;bats=&#038;minPA2=0&#038;minPA=0&#038;orderbydir=DESC&#038;orderbydirb=ASC&#038;n1=beimejo01&#038;as=pitcher&#038;year_game=career&#038;opp_id=CIN&#038;orderby=PA&#038;orderbyb=Name" rel="nofollow">Patterson was 1 for 13 against Beimel, going in.  </a>Unreal.</p>
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		<title>By: AnnapolisRed</title>
		<link>http://redlegnation.com/2008/06/22/doubletalk/#comment-1099963</link>
		<dc:creator>AnnapolisRed</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jun 2008 01:55:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://redlegnation.com/2008/06/22/doubletalk/#comment-1099963</guid>
		<description>You can&#039;t defend the decision to let Patterson bat.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You can&#8217;t defend the decision to let Patterson bat.</p>
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		<title>By: Mr. Redlegs</title>
		<link>http://redlegnation.com/2008/06/22/doubletalk/#comment-1099793</link>
		<dc:creator>Mr. Redlegs</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Jun 2008 21:47:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://redlegnation.com/2008/06/22/doubletalk/#comment-1099793</guid>
		<description>Both situation were against the Yankees, not Dodgers, right? One Saturday, another Sunday.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Both situation were against the Yankees, not Dodgers, right? One Saturday, another Sunday.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris</title>
		<link>http://redlegnation.com/2008/06/22/doubletalk/#comment-1099788</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Jun 2008 21:40:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://redlegnation.com/2008/06/22/doubletalk/#comment-1099788</guid>
		<description>I suppose we can look on the bright side and say that Dusty learned his lesson and changed his ways?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I suppose we can look on the bright side and say that Dusty learned his lesson and changed his ways?</p>
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		<title>By: Chris</title>
		<link>http://redlegnation.com/2008/06/22/doubletalk/#comment-1099787</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Jun 2008 21:40:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://redlegnation.com/2008/06/22/doubletalk/#comment-1099787</guid>
		<description>Mr. Redlegs, &lt;a href=\&quot;http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/CIN/CIN200806170.shtml\&quot; rel=\&quot;nofollow\&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;the Reds were losing in both games. &lt;/a&gt;Valentin\&#039;s bases-loaded groundout off Beimel cut the Dodgers\&#039; lead to 2-1. A successful pinch-hit would\&#039;ve &lt;em&gt;given &lt;/em&gt;the Reds the lead, but you certainly don\&#039;t avoid making a move because it might work, and give you a lead that might be hard to defend.

I\&#039;d say the two games were pretty comparable:

*Patterson\&#039;s .190 isn\&#039;t measurably better than Janish\&#039;s .180.

*There was a reasonable platoon-appropriate option off the bench (A.Phillips vs. Beimel; Javy vs. Rivera).

* And there was an acceptable, if not ideal defensive option. Remember, Cabrera has played &lt;strong&gt;nearly 300 games&lt;/strong&gt; in the OF. That\&#039;s much, much more than Hairston had played at SS before he was named the regular, and obviously more than Javy had played at 3b in his life.

There\&#039;s really no way to explain the move on Tuesday, other than to nod to Dusty\&#039;s wildly misplaced faith in Corey Patterson. Dusty\&#039;s after-the-fact attempts to explain himself simply don\&#039;t gibe with a pattern of moves as recently as Sunday afternoon.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mr. Redlegs, <a href=\"http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/CIN/CIN200806170.shtml\" rel=\"nofollow\" rel="nofollow">the Reds were losing in both games. </a>Valentin\&#8217;s bases-loaded groundout off Beimel cut the Dodgers\&#8217; lead to 2-1. A successful pinch-hit would\&#8217;ve <em>given </em>the Reds the lead, but you certainly don\&#8217;t avoid making a move because it might work, and give you a lead that might be hard to defend.</p>
<p>I\&#8217;d say the two games were pretty comparable:</p>
<p>*Patterson\&#8217;s .190 isn\&#8217;t measurably better than Janish\&#8217;s .180.</p>
<p>*There was a reasonable platoon-appropriate option off the bench (A.Phillips vs. Beimel; Javy vs. Rivera).</p>
<p>* And there was an acceptable, if not ideal defensive option. Remember, Cabrera has played <strong>nearly 300 games</strong> in the OF. That\&#8217;s much, much more than Hairston had played at SS before he was named the regular, and obviously more than Javy had played at 3b in his life.</p>
<p>There\&#8217;s really no way to explain the move on Tuesday, other than to nod to Dusty\&#8217;s wildly misplaced faith in Corey Patterson. Dusty\&#8217;s after-the-fact attempts to explain himself simply don\&#8217;t gibe with a pattern of moves as recently as Sunday afternoon.</p>
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		<title>By: mhopp</title>
		<link>http://redlegnation.com/2008/06/22/doubletalk/#comment-1099776</link>
		<dc:creator>mhopp</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Jun 2008 21:26:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://redlegnation.com/2008/06/22/doubletalk/#comment-1099776</guid>
		<description>I think the point everyone that is a Reds fan would like to make is that Dusty Baker has made some foolish mistakes that even a rookie manager would not make. They have been key mistakes with little rationale for why. Mark Sheldon on mlb.com just did his Mailbag write up and said:&quot;As for what&#039;s wrong, I think a lot of it goes back to May 25. That was the day of the 18-inning loss at San Diego where Harang worked four innings and threw 63 pitches in emergency relief. Overall that week, he pitched three times in eight days and never really got a chance to recover -- not just his arms but his legs, too.

One longtime scout told me Harang&#039;s mechanics haven&#039;t been the same after that relief outing. In his last five starts since, he is 1-4 with a 7.20 ERA. That Padres game could have more lasting effect on the Reds than any game this season.&quot;
The Reds have the best young talented team I have ever seen in 25 years of following them. Hopefully Dusty Baker&#039;s foolishness and pride won&#039;t ruin it. Jocketty has to grow some balls soon.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the point everyone that is a Reds fan would like to make is that Dusty Baker has made some foolish mistakes that even a rookie manager would not make. They have been key mistakes with little rationale for why. Mark Sheldon on mlb.com just did his Mailbag write up and said:&#8221;As for what&#8217;s wrong, I think a lot of it goes back to May 25. That was the day of the 18-inning loss at San Diego where Harang worked four innings and threw 63 pitches in emergency relief. Overall that week, he pitched three times in eight days and never really got a chance to recover &#8212; not just his arms but his legs, too.</p>
<p>One longtime scout told me Harang&#8217;s mechanics haven&#8217;t been the same after that relief outing. In his last five starts since, he is 1-4 with a 7.20 ERA. That Padres game could have more lasting effect on the Reds than any game this season.&#8221;<br />
The Reds have the best young talented team I have ever seen in 25 years of following them. Hopefully Dusty Baker&#8217;s foolishness and pride won&#8217;t ruin it. Jocketty has to grow some balls soon.</p>
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		<title>By: Mr. Redlegs</title>
		<link>http://redlegnation.com/2008/06/22/doubletalk/#comment-1099612</link>
		<dc:creator>Mr. Redlegs</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Jun 2008 17:43:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://redlegnation.com/2008/06/22/doubletalk/#comment-1099612</guid>
		<description>And who did Valentin hit for with the game on the line?

Janish. Batting .180

So you figure, already trailing, one inning for Valentin isn&#039;t going to kill you. Whereas in the prior example of putting Phillips or Cabrera in the outfield with you LEADING could cost you the game.

C&#039;mon. These examples are not close to the same because of th egame situations. But yes, Votto at third would have been a better bet. Guessing not a single person on-staff knew Votto came up as a 3b.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And who did Valentin hit for with the game on the line?</p>
<p>Janish. Batting .180</p>
<p>So you figure, already trailing, one inning for Valentin isn&#8217;t going to kill you. Whereas in the prior example of putting Phillips or Cabrera in the outfield with you LEADING could cost you the game.</p>
<p>C&#8217;mon. These examples are not close to the same because of th egame situations. But yes, Votto at third would have been a better bet. Guessing not a single person on-staff knew Votto came up as a 3b.</p>
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		<title>By: AnnapolisRed</title>
		<link>http://redlegnation.com/2008/06/22/doubletalk/#comment-1099591</link>
		<dc:creator>AnnapolisRed</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Jun 2008 16:59:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://redlegnation.com/2008/06/22/doubletalk/#comment-1099591</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t have a problem with Valentin at third, it was kind of the way it worked out, but that isn&#039;t Chris&#039; point. The point is he is a big fat liar when it comes to Corey Patterson and he clearly doesn&#039;t know his team.  It is time for Walt to pull the plug on Dusty and Patterson.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t have a problem with Valentin at third, it was kind of the way it worked out, but that isn&#8217;t Chris&#8217; point. The point is he is a big fat liar when it comes to Corey Patterson and he clearly doesn&#8217;t know his team.  It is time for Walt to pull the plug on Dusty and Patterson.</p>
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		<title>By: mhopp</title>
		<link>http://redlegnation.com/2008/06/22/doubletalk/#comment-1099565</link>
		<dc:creator>mhopp</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Jun 2008 16:23:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://redlegnation.com/2008/06/22/doubletalk/#comment-1099565</guid>
		<description>But it is things like that that have damaged the Reds and caused key losses. Clearly Dusty Baker is either a slow learner or has early Old-timer&#039;s Syndrome. I say that Walt needs to pull the plug on the Crusty &quot;The Clown&quot; Baker experience and then Patterson will go too.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>But it is things like that that have damaged the Reds and caused key losses. Clearly Dusty Baker is either a slow learner or has early Old-timer&#8217;s Syndrome. I say that Walt needs to pull the plug on the Crusty &#8220;The Clown&#8221; Baker experience and then Patterson will go too.</p>
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		<title>By: Shawn</title>
		<link>http://redlegnation.com/2008/06/22/doubletalk/#comment-1099456</link>
		<dc:creator>Shawn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Jun 2008 13:33:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://redlegnation.com/2008/06/22/doubletalk/#comment-1099456</guid>
		<description>Votto, or Hopper, who used to be an infielder.  At least it didn&#039;t do any damage.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Votto, or Hopper, who used to be an infielder.  At least it didn&#8217;t do any damage.</p>
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		<title>By: Relient k Car</title>
		<link>http://redlegnation.com/2008/06/22/doubletalk/#comment-1099209</link>
		<dc:creator>Relient k Car</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Jun 2008 05:23:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://redlegnation.com/2008/06/22/doubletalk/#comment-1099209</guid>
		<description>you know who shoulda been at 3rd
Votto
he came up as a 3B!
then put javy at 1B!
idiots... just idiots... or idiot</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>you know who shoulda been at 3rd<br />
Votto<br />
he came up as a 3B!<br />
then put javy at 1B!<br />
idiots&#8230; just idiots&#8230; or idiot</p>
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		<title>By: Shawn</title>
		<link>http://redlegnation.com/2008/06/22/doubletalk/#comment-1099173</link>
		<dc:creator>Shawn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Jun 2008 04:08:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://redlegnation.com/2008/06/22/doubletalk/#comment-1099173</guid>
		<description>Yeah, it&#039;s crazy.  Not that we don&#039;t all do contradictory things, but it&#039;s frustrating.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah, it&#8217;s crazy.  Not that we don&#8217;t all do contradictory things, but it&#8217;s frustrating.</p>
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		<title>By: Y-City Jim</title>
		<link>http://redlegnation.com/2008/06/22/doubletalk/#comment-1099122</link>
		<dc:creator>Y-City Jim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Jun 2008 02:22:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://redlegnation.com/2008/06/22/doubletalk/#comment-1099122</guid>
		<description>Of all outfielders with 100 or more at bats, Corey Patterson has the lowest OBP and he has almost 200 at bats. Walt, pull the plug on the Corey Patterson experiment. BTW, he ranks 125th among MLB outfielders with 100 or more at bats. Bruce and Dunn? 14th and 15th.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Of all outfielders with 100 or more at bats, Corey Patterson has the lowest OBP and he has almost 200 at bats. Walt, pull the plug on the Corey Patterson experiment. BTW, he ranks 125th among MLB outfielders with 100 or more at bats. Bruce and Dunn? 14th and 15th.</p>
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