Loading ...There are plenty of culprits for the pathetic performance of the Reds offense thus far in 2008, no question about it. There can be no doubt, however, that Corey Patterson is one of the biggest problems (if not the biggest).
Ladies and Gentlemen, take a look at your everyday leadoff hitter: a .205 batting average and a .268 on-base percentage. .268!!!
That’s right, Dusty Baker’s buddy Corey Patterson is absolutely killing the Reds because Dusty insists on letting him lead off. A .268 on-base percentage is not just unacceptable out of a leadoff hitter, it’s indefensible. There can be absolutely no justification for hitting him first in the lineup.
Because he can’t get on base, he’s rarely on base for the Reds best hitters to drive in. As I said, there are plenty of reasons for the team’s poor hitting (it’s not all Patterson’s fault), but it’s hard for the best hitters to drive in runs when a certified out machine is “hitting” in the leadoff spot.
Dusty, if you have to play him, bat Patterson 8th where he can do less damage. He’s been generally okay on defense (other than last night’s Little League-esque dropped fly ball), and he has hit with a little pop when he actually hits the ball…but Patterson has no business leading off.
Here at Redleg Nation, we have tried to have an open mind about Dusty, and we’ve defended him on several occasions. He’s done a better job than his critics would have imagined, in several areas. Baker appears to be a good/excellent motivator of his troops, for example. But this absurd Patterson situation is one area where he is completely wrong, and he needs to reverse course immediately. (If anyone can defend Dusty on this one point, I’d like to hear it.)
Then again, at least Patterson isn’t clogging up the bases.
When Patterson was playing really well the first couple of weeks of the season, I was high on him but I also said that the full verdict won’t be in until he gets 200-300 AB’s.
I still think that’s true. Last nights error aside, Patterson’s the best OF’er on the team. But I definitely would do things: put him in a strict platoon with Freel and when he’s in the line-up he should be batting 8th.
Aren’t you guys getting sick of dredging up the “clog up the bases” quote? Seriously, one of yall manage to work it into every thread. You can’t honestly believe Baker meant it in the same context that you agressively use it…..can you?
No, we aren’t sick of bringing that up because Baker has said it more than once and it’s the most ridiculous thing in the world. Yes, we use it in a tongue-in cheek manner (like in the post above), but read his quotes on the topic. It’s crazy.
That said, it sounds like we agree completely on Patterson. I’m not saying the Reds should just dump the guy (after all, he does some things that help the team), but he needs to be dropped in the order immediately. And a platoon with Freel is an excellent idea.
Baker’s said that more than once. He meant it.
I was listening to the first couple innings on the radio last night, and Marty was questioning the manhood (yes he was) of Griffey, Dunn, and “even Brandon Phillips.” No mention of Corey Patterson’s continued futility. I’ve always thought that a red-hot April 1-10 would get you out of a lot of criticism, but this is ridiculous.
I agree that Marty goes way overboard on the Griffeys, Dunns, and Phillips’ — you know, the good players — but to be fair, during the previous game, Marty and Thom spent a full inning and a half hammering Patterson. It was in the context of Freel’s comments about wanting to play more.
It was mostly Thom, as I recall, but Marty was certainly agreeing with him.
But, to get back to the point, it appears that a hot week and a half has given Patterson a pass on being terrible. I’m very worried that Dusty will never move him out of the leadoff spot. After all, Patterson has played for Baker before. Dusty should know how terrible he is…and yet, he continues to lead him off.
Sheesh….
I wish Marty would stick to what he is good at, describing the plays of the game to me. If he actually did that rather than ***** and complain about everything, I might actually listen to the radio again for Reds games. Instead, when I can’t watch the game, I just hope we win and check out the box score later.
First of all, if he’s said it more than once, I’d like to see it. Second, the only time I’m aware of Baker saying anything like that he was talking about Dunn and possibly Votto, although I’m not sure about Votto.
Everytime someone, anyone takes a collar yall bring up that (should be) obscure quote and follow it up with saying Baker’s probably happy or something to that effect.
Seriously, do you really think he doesn’t want guys on base? C’mon.
I agree with you Chad, Freel is swinging a hot bat & getting on base. I have to agree with Freel … how can you keep someone that had such a great series like Ryan did in SanFran & not keep him in the lineup? Its simple, Dusty’s man crush on CP is getting to the point where its blatent that he is playing his boy over whats good for the team.
I agree Ron. I have been as open as I can to Dusty’s decisions, but I am downright frustrated. It makes no sense to me when Farney is hot why you wouldn’t play him. Isn’t that part of the idea of a platoon? I mean Freel finds ways to make things happen. We need this especially on a team where nothing is currently happening.
Tampa Red, here’s the issue with the quote. The first time he said it that I’m aware of was in 2006:
Do the Cubs need to improve their on-base percentage next year? They currently rank last in the National League with a .318 OBP.
“On-base percentage is great if you can score runs and do something with that on-base percentage,” Baker said. “Clogging up the bases isn’t that great to me. The problem we have to address more than anything is the home run problem.”
Isn’t it a little scary that the context of this article is that the Cubs were dead last in OBP and Baker totally dismisses it? Sure he pays it lip service, but his focus is on other problems. If you’re dead last, whether or not you need more HR, you should understand that it’s a problem that needs to be addressed.
The reds also have other problems, so Dusty can still deflect away, but the quote is a symbol of a larger fear amongst fans that Baker doesn’t understand the importance of OBP. Leading off with Patterson is about the best way to confirm that fear, so the quote gets beat around.
The reds are currently 9th in the NL. In OBP, 8th in SLG, and 10th in ERA for what it’s worth.
Also, if you want to get all old school about it, NL average BA against goes up 6 points with runners on. So clogging the bases is also a good way of getting more hits.
I moved here two years ago from Chicago and thought I got away from Dusty! He used that clogging up the bases line frequently over there. We got Nefi Perez and now you have Corey Patterson. The more it;s complained about the more he will play. Dusty will try to use it to rally the team. An us against them mentality is what he will go for. He caused the Cubs to lose Steve Stone, which is why he is universally hated in Chicago to this day. Losing didn’t have much to do with it. Most managers have lost in Chicago. He and Thom will have a problem before this is over I’ll bet.
Dusty’s decision for who bats leadoff has nothing to with how horrible Griffey/Dunn/Phillips have been at the plate. That’s the problem. Complaining about Patterson batting leadoff like bitching about the rain during a tornado.
Bottom line those guys have to hit. Dunn/Griffey need to get their trade value up. The market for power bats at the deadline this year will be strong, and they most certainly will be dealt….hopefully for maximum value.
Even if we start winning, I think one or both still get dealt.
Assuming that they both get back to recent norms, why would we deal both? Who would we play in the outfield? By your own logic, this team sinks or swims with their success at the plate. Aren’t they the tornado?
Of they start to hit, then one of them will probably be dealt, I’d guess griffey. Dunn get’s extended, Bruce takes over right, and we’re still elft with a hole at CF.
But more to the point of the post, Dave has done exactly what Baker does. Downplay the importance of OBP by pointing to other problems. That’s like saying I’m failing math and science, so talking about how i’m also failing english is a waste of time.
If the reds can improve their team, they should. Dusty can’t make Jr hit, but he can make a lineup where the guys who make less outs get up to bat more than the guys who make more outs.
It’s just stupid not to.
This will get reposted in the game thread, but thought it was interesting for this discussion as well. Here’s tonight’s lineup from Fay:
Freel cf
Jr rf
Phillips 2b
Votto 1b
EdE 3b
Dunn lf
Kepps ss
Ross c
Belisle p
And we’re facing a lefty.
This looks a lot better to me. Hopefully it works because with Belisle on the hill, we’ll probably need a good showing at the plate.
Bailey should be on the hill
I actually like that lineup. Puts the slumping guys between guys who are (kinda) hitting, so they don’t have a black hole in the middle of the lineup.
None of this will matter if Belisle sucks it up tonight, though, and if he does, Dusty will probably go back to the old lineup tomorrow.
Al:
I have to ask, where was Baker wrong? Seriously, you can lead the league in OBP and it doesn’t mean much of anything unless you get runs out of it. If you don’t, then you lead the league in another category, LOB.
I seriously doubt Baker would care if his team scored 3 runs on a HR or 6 straight walks. His points are valid, and I seriously doubt Baker would give a spit if he got 3 runs from 6 straight walks, a bases loaded throwing error or a 3-run knock.
You guys on the other hand, I suspect you would enjoy the walks a good bit more.
His points aren’t valid. There’s no statistical validity to the thought that you can have too many runners on base. Guys who lead the league in OBP are invariably at the top of the league in runs scored.
And yes, some of us do enjoy the walks. Rickey Henderson, Babe Ruth, and Barry Bonds are all in the top 3 in walks and the top 4 in runs scored. Funny how that correlates.
By no means am I advocating Patterson at lead-off, I’m just saying Dunn, Griffey, and Phillips all look horrible.
I really really like that line-up. Lets hope they score 20 runs so Belisle has a shot at winning and Dusty will keep that line-up.
Yeah Tampa, I just think you’re off base on this one.
team slugging and on-base percentage are almost exactally equal in terms of correlation with team runs. If a reporter asks you if you should improve yor team’s OBP (because you’re the worst in the league), and your response is that you need more homers, then you clearly aren’t seeing the whole picture.
Maybe the cubs then (and reds now) do need more slugging, but to just ignore OBP is foolish.
Also, Dusty or his defenders should respond to the fact that it gets easier to hit with men on base.
The whole team looks horrible. They’re morale is low and that spreads like wildfire, it affects pitchers and hitters. If you think negative you’ll play negative and that is what is going on. How can you think positive when your manager likes to play someone who can not even get one base? So what if he can steal bases…you have to get on base to steal bases! I’m making the trip to the Cinci area from NC and was going to see a Reds game but I’m heading to Louisville instead. Why should I pay major league prices for minor league play?
I’d say it’s a management issue. Does anyone think it’s possible to get Tony Larussa in the future since we have St. Louis execs in Cinci?
OBP or not, nobody is hitting clutch. Take out Keppenger and Votto and this team wouldn’t have one a game this year. I’ve been a Reds fan for over 25 years and this is the most disappointed I’ve been in a team yet.
Clutch? Nobody is hitting. period. People don’t get on base. There are no clutch situations.
You missed a player: Encarnacion has saved a couple of games with his bat and another with his glove.
This lineup isn’t better than any of the others. R-L-R-L-R-L-R. This whole setting up a batting order in anticipation of the other team’s bullpen is driving me nuts. Put a batting order out there that will have greatest success against the other team’s STARTER!
I do disagree with Baker on this one. Patterson should not see the light of day in the leadoff spot. And if Krivsky’s parting comments are true, it is completely Baker’s doing that Patterson is even on the team (going over Krivsky’s head to the owner.)
However, his clogging bases comments while in a Reds uniform, was in reference to Joey Votto K’ing on taken 3rd strikes in some early spring games. In context of his total conversation on the topic, he was saying that he thought people were looking for walks and not swinging at hittable pitches.
I didn’t know of Krivsky’s remarks about Crusty Baker going over his head? Boy, that is the kind of thing that can really stir problems in an organization. It’s common sense that you don’t do that kind of thing right away and you best be sure it is going to make a difference.
From the beginning it sounded to me like Crusty wanted to have some buddies in case things get heated. Seems like el Crusty one is a micro manager and is trying to control what his batters do a bit too much. I thought that at the beginning and now it’s confirmed. There’s no doubt they have the ability to score tons of runs. I’d take Bob Boone at this point!! Bring back Pete Rose!
They’re swinging at hittable pitches but only they’re missing them. The bottom line is that if you can’t hit you need to sit! Patterson and Hairston need to go. What a mess, maybe next year.
Al:
I think we just fundementally disagree, which I often do with the fine folks here at Redleg Nation, LOL.
I like aggressive hitters. If I had to pick a player whose approach I most like, it would be Manny Ramirez. I realize that he gets his fair share of walks, but judging by the games I’ve watched, he isn’t looking for one.
When Ramirez gets his pitch, and hitters usually get one or two an AB, he’s ready. The Reds hitters rarely are.
I guess my point is, except in certain situations like starting an inning, I like to see hitters looking for a pitch to drive.
And yes, I know that’s not a popular opinion among the sabermetric/moneyball group.