Loading ...We’ve been quick to pull the trigger on criticism of Dusty Baker (and there are significant concerns about a couple of his decisions in the last two games), but I have to offer sincere praise for his handling of the pitching staff thus far. Especially with respect to Johnny Cueto last night, Baker has been easy on the arms. He could have very easily sent Cueto back to the mound to try to complete a one-hitter.
This is one area where Dusty’s reputation was not good, and where we have been worried. So far, Dusty looks to have learned his lesson; he hasn’t let a pitcher go more than 100 pitches a single time. Kudos! Keep it up, Dusty.
I agree. Thanks for posting this.
I read somewhere this spring that Baker\\\’s reputation may have been more a worry than it should\\\’ve been. The thinking was that yes, Prior, Wood, and Big Z threw entirely too many innings – but even though that was only 5 years ago, it was a different era as far as pitch counts go. (apologies to whomever wrote that piece).
Take a look at BP\\\’s Pitcher Abuse Points reports: In \\\’03, Freddy Garcia racked up 49913 \\\”abuse points,\\\” and ranked #35 in the bigs.
Last year, Javy Vasquez had 49103, and ranked #15. Last year, there were 52 instances where a starter threw over 122 pitches, and ZERO where they went over 133. In \\\’03, those numbers were 142 and 12.
Baker was bad, but he wasn\\\’t of a completely different species from the other guys running ballclubs in 2003. Back then, it was Will Carroll and a few other guys shouting into the wind about pitch counts. The other managers eventually learned the lessons, and it\\\’s reasonable to assume that Dusty did too.
everyone’s rushing to give credit to dusty for taking cueto out, but i still contend that it was a bad move. if the reds had actually scored runs yesterday, then sure, take him out.
all i know is that no one on the dbacks was close to hitting him, and 92 pitches is not that many. if i were on the dbacks bench and saw stormy weathers coming in, down 2, i think “this is where we come back.” if i see cueto come in, i think “well, we’ll get to the plane early at least.”
and it very nearly cost us the game. we were extremely lucky to get away with that one yesterday. if another run had scored in the 8th, would people still be dishing the love for dusty?
to me that seems like praising someone for getting lucky and having mike lincoln of all people bail them out.
still, just an awesome game yesterday, despite what i see as a mistake.
The other thing to take into consideration is that the Cubs were in a playoff race. Sure he probably overworked but not just for the fun of it. With the Cubs being who they are, you can kinda rationalize the decision a little more.
So…it’s ok to jeopardize a pitcher’s season and possibly his career because the 3rd game of the year is a close one? I vehemently disagree.
that is such outrageous hyperbole i don’t even know what to say.
no wait, i do.
if you think that the difference between 92 pitches and 105 pitches is going to jeopardize cueto’s career, you either know something terrible that i don’t about cueto’s weak arm, or you are crazy.
show me that study. if you’re going to make claims like that, show me the study that shows career ending injuries due to 105 pitch starts, vs. 92 pitch starts. i demand evidence.
and as for it being the 3rd game of the season, i would also like to see the rule changes that baseball made that weight the importance of wins.
if this team is going to contend, they need all the wins they can get, no one is predicting that we’re going to run away with anything. so yes, i think trying to win these games is important.
if the kids aren’t ready to pitch, then they should be in extended spring training. homer bailey threw more than 100 pitches in his big league debut. who cares that it only got him through 5 innings?
in the end, we won, and it’s over. but i don’t get all this support for dusty almost giving the game back.
1. Homer Bailey’s major league debut was in June, on an 82 degree day, after he’d made 10 starts in the minors.
2. Cueto was making his first start of the year, on a cold, rainy day.
3. David Weathers saved 33 games last year, and Francisco Cordero saved 44. They’re being is being paid around $15M to pitch the 8th and 9th innings this year.
So if you really think that turning a game over to those two guys for the 8th and 9th innings (with a 3-1 lead) is “giving it back,” then contending isn’t something we need to worry about this year, anyway.
no, you know what i consider “almost giving the game back?” not using the best available player in a situatin where doing so would be responsible.
cueto pitched in winter leagues and has easy mechanics and he didn’t seemed too bothered by the rain. i just don’t think that 10-12 more pitches would have been unhealthy. if he had been at 105 at the end of the 7th i don’t think many people would have thought that too much.
for those 10 or 12 pitches, i think johnny cueto was the best available pitcher the reds had, save maybe cordero. i advocate using the best available plaers on the team when that is possible and responsible.
i think i’ve made it pretty clear that i don’t think david weathers is a shutdown relief ace. i think cordero’s great, and that day i would have let cueto pitch to 105 to get coco the ball, because cueto was dominating.
david weathers is totally passable, but he doesn’t dominate really, as was shown.
do you think cueto, in 10 or 12 more pitches would have done worse than david weathers did? if not, and the 10-12 more pitches wouldn’t hurt him, then why not use him?
no, you know what i consider “almost giving the game back?” not using the best available player in a situatin where doing so would be responsible.
cueto pitched in winter leagues and has easy mechanics and he didn’t seemed too bothered by the rain. i just don’t think that 10-12 more pitches would have been unhealthy. if he had been at 105 at the end of the 7th i don’t think many people would have thought that too much.
for those 10 or 12 pitches, i think johnny cueto was the best available pitcher the reds had, save maybe cordero. i advocate using the best available plaers on the team when that is possible and responsible.
i think i’ve made it pretty clear that i don’t think david weathers is a shutdown relief ace. i think cordero’s great, and that day i would have let cueto pitch to 105 to get coco the ball, because cueto was dominating.
david weathers is totally passable, but he doesn’t dominate really, as was shown.
do you think cueto, in 10 or 12 more pitches would have done worse than david weathers did? if not, and the 10-12 more pitches wouldn’t hurt him, then why not use him?
Chris, interesting stuff on pitch count reviews, but I don’t think it was Will Carroll and the BP folks who shed the light. Player agents were screaming bloody hell because . . . and this is no joke . . . the higher the pitch count, the potential for a shorter the career, or injury, and at 5 percent for the agent and whopping salaries for their players, there were screams. I know of a few instances agents burning the ears off GMs about their clients’ pitch counts for this very reason. And who’s to say they’re wrong? Technically.
I don’t disagree, Mr. R. You were closer to the agents ears than I was. Carroll and a few other were the public voices, but you’re probably right – their impact was minimal compared to the nameless five percenters.