Loading ...I don’t have a big problem with the Reds’ lack of activity around the trading deadline. The Lohse trade was good enough, and though I hoped to see GM Wayne Krivsky trade Jeff Conine and/or Scott Hatteberg, there’s no point in just giving those guys away for nothing. If Krivsky didn’t get a good offer, well, he can still trade those guys (there’s no reason to believe they wouldn’t clear waivers and, thus, be trade-bait once again).
On the other hand, I’m not happy at all that Joey Votto is sitting at AAA while the Reds use guys with an average age of 40.5 at first base.
This is part of the problem I have with the administration of this team. Scott Hatteberg and Jeff Conine have been fine contributors to the Reds; Hatteberg especially has been outstanding in his two years with the team. They are each model citizens and seem to be all-around good guys. But neither of them are going to be around the next time the Reds contend for a championship.
Joey Votto just might be the 1B on the next good Reds team. Why, then, are they allowing him to waste half a season in AAA when he could be up here in Cincinnati getting some major league ABs in a lost season for the Reds? What is the downside to bringing him up now? He can’t make the team worse, and getting some at-bats against major league pitching might help Votto progress a little quicker.
I’ve been much more patient than most when it comes to the clear lack of direction for this team. Playing forty year old guys in a lost season like this, however, is unforgivable. It’s evidence of a serious lack of long-term foresight. Why not take the opportunity to get a young guy some experience and allow him to adjust to the majors without pressure?
Or maybe Wayne Krivsky is just trying to save his job instead of doing what is best for the future of the Reds. You decide.
Free Joey Votto.
amen.
Ditto. In a lost season (make that, DECADE), there is no logical explanation for Votto rotting at AAA. I could even understand keeping Hatty, presuming he’s cool becoming the lefty PH the rest of the year. If he’s not cool with it, then he doesn’t have the organization’s best interest at heart and we should dump him. Yeah, it sucks to put a player in that position, but it has to happen. I’m just completely fatigued by malaise that has settled over this franchise. Getting swept by the Nats has got to be the lowest of lows. There’s a difference between playing bad and winning and playing good and losing. This team plays bad AND loses. The pitching is what it is at the moment, but I’ll argue til I’m blue in the face about this offense underperforming too, despite their overall statistical rankings. Even MacKanin hates the seeming all-or-nothing nature of the offense (“We score by the long ball, but we don’t seem to be able to generate anything else.”) Plus they’re the ML worst against lefties. That tells me they can only hit the straight stuff. My point is that even a supposed strength is a weakness if you look close enough. This team is a disaster. Wake me up when Bruce, Votto, Hamilton, and Bailey all start in the same game. Only then will we know they actually have a long term strategy. Anyone care to bet it will happen this year?
I pretty much agree with you. Votto doesn’t seem like a can’t-miss prospect like Bruce, but it’s time to see what he can do.
It must be that the Reds are trying to “showcase” Conine. Feeling the need to showcase a guy who’s been in the league as long as Conine doesn’t make a lot of sense, but what else can it be?
I don’t buy into the conspiracy theories that Krivsky is just trying to save his job. Honestly, that’s ridiculous. The Reds are in last place with the worst record in the NL.
I’m pretty sure any decision on Krivsky’s fate has already been made (I think he gets another year), and anything Conine can or can’t do to help the Reds ain’t gonna matter.
There’s always a logical explanation, and if you look at the day of the month and the roster you’ll figure it out.
Tampa, if it’s not Krivsky trying to save his job, then what’s the explanation?
You might be right, the decision might already be made, but that doesn’t mean that HE knows it has.
Fighting to save his job is the only explanation that I can come up with that makes sense.
Here, from John Fay’s blog. This makes sense:
. . . it’s only Aug. 2 and it takes a few days for players to clear waivers. And if a claim is put in, it’s a 48-hour process.
And also, any player that has to be added to the 40-man roster has his service clock immediately punched, starting him toward free agency and arbitration. On Sept. 1, players can be called up without it counting toward their service time.
Plus, there’s about 2 1/2 weeks left in the minor league season. If you bring up all these guys your clamoring for, it creates an organizational shift to fill the vacancies. Ya know, the Reds aren’t sending Stanton, Conine, Hatteberg and whomever you’re hating today to Louisville to fill out the season.
So instead of screaming about the idiot GM, maybe you should know how some of these processes work.
And if you look at the roster, they suddenly have an outfield problem if Freel is really hurt. Besides, they’re not going to bench Dunn to play Votto.
So that leaves the 1b situation. You have to think as soon as they move Conine or Hatteberg they will call up Votto. Otherwise, what they really need if Freel is hurt is another outfielder, not a third 1b.
……And how about a player, any player, having the balls to call out his team for chrissakes. This entire season, not one playters-only meeting called, nothing in the media other than platitudes. Where’s Harang or Weathers, Griffey or Dunn? I’m not advocating conflict, but at some point in a losing season I need to see or hear that these guys get emotional about losing and that they hold each other accountable. Just once. For as much energy as I put into this team, it’s the least they could do. There’s the old saying that ‘baseball doesn’t build character, it reveals it’. Does it reveal anything about these guys? Who’s the Larkin, Vaughn, or O’Neill? Their attitude is sooo little league (show up, play, winning isn’t important so long as you tried your best goshdarnit).
For what it’s worth, I think Krivsky will be back next year. And to disagree once again with most of my RN colleagues, I think Krivsky should be back for another year.
But this Votto thing makes no sense. I know about all the service time issues and roster issues and waiver issues. But every day that passes is a day wasted in terms of gauging whether Votto can play on this level.
He’s hit at every other level. Let’s try him in the majors now, when the games are meaningless. Don’t wait until next spring when there’s a chance the games will mean something.
Here’s the deal though and I hope to post something on this in the next week or so…what if Votto comes up?
The Reds are AWFUL at bringing their players up and helping them succeed at the major league level. It’s been this way through three administrations (Bowden, O’Brien, Krivsky). The player struggles a little bit and the media and the administration turn on the player.
DUNN: Could never do enough for the team. Hasn’t shown much growth the past few years either.
KEARNS: See above. Stagnated and has regressed in the majors
EDWIN: Struggles for a spring and has no place on the team anymore.
And there are others. I wonder how much Marty has to do with this. If the player isn’t fundamentally sound and struggles a bit, he kills that player on the radio. Just kills him. And so many people view what he says as gospel.
Here’s my prediction on Votto…he’ll never be a player good enough to satisfy the team or the fans. He’ll be good, don’t get me wrong. But this town prays for the prospects to come and save us but then turns on that player within a year or two.
I agree. Votto should be up. But the pessimist in me just sees what is going to happen eventually.
It’s an issue of the media and club administration concentrating more on what a player *can’t* do than appreciating what the player brings to the table.
I agree Sultan but look at the personalities you’re talking about. It seems like Harang and Dunn are pretty quiet guys–followers–and just because Griffey is the star doesn’t make him a natural leader. That’s not been his trait at any point in his career. Weathers is a leader but relief pitchers are almost never the leading clubhouse guys because they’re alwaysin the bullpen.
Leadership is not something bestowed in the workplace or with sports, it appears. It’s something that comes naturally and is shrouded with respect.
Cal Ripken Jr. was never a leader on the Orioles. But guys like Rick Dempsey, B.J. Surhoff and Miguel Tejada were natural leaders.
The Reds definitely need a lightning personality in the locker room but if Dunn and Griffey ain’t taken that rod by now they ain’t ever taking it.
Blame the announcer? That one’s up there.
Or out there. Either way.
Chad I agree with you on Krivsky and 18 months on the job isn’t time enough to judge the system-wide work he’s doing. Also, at some point you have to stop replacing the GM every few years. It shows signs of instability to players and agents and makes it almost impossible to get players to come or stay.
It’s not like this team needs any more problems trying to attract players.
But I really don’t think Votto finishing out the minor league season or having to wait until Conine or Hatteberg are moved retards his growth. It’s a few weeks, not months.
It may not retard his growth, but it’s a waste of a wonderful opportunity to get him major league experience in a pressure-less environment (or, at least, less of a pressure-filled environment than he’d face next April).
Why not use this lost season to do something that might pay dividends later? We’re getting nothing else out of this year.
It’s a few weeks, not months.
If he has to wait until April, it will be months.
If he’s brought up in September, it’s a waste of a month…and don’t be surprised to see him riding the pine even if he is called up in September. Mackanin, certainly, and possibly Krivsky are trying to save their jobs.
I’m not as cynical as Eric, but this team has done a very poor job of nurturing young talent over the last decade or two.
-Rick-
You don’t think Marty has any influence on how people view the players?
And I’m not blaming it on Marty. Just raising a question.
Here’s the problem with not bringing Votto up now.
The team will have to judge whether he’s ready or not based on about 80 spring training at bats, which is silly. But it will happen.
He has a strong minor league record. And there’s an opportunity to get a few months of actual major league time in here.
I think everyone and his brother, plus his dog and cat, knows Votto is coming up in September. It’s a few weeks.
And at this point what indication does anyone have, namely from the owner, that Krivsky needs to save his job? It’s all blog speculation.
I have yet to see a word written about this in the three newspapers that cover the team everyday and that’s not the kind of story McCoy tends to let go by. It’s too juicy, too important, too newsy.
Has it been reported by Rosenthal, Olney, Justice, Ringolsby, Gammons, Stark or any of the other big-name baseball writers and notebookers? Not that I’ve seen.
Catch 22.
You have players you want to trade to make room for the youngsters. If you bring the Votto’s up now and play them then you can’t expect to get much for Hatteberg and Conine if they never play.
One step at a time. Yes it is frustrating but it would be foolish to either just dump older players with absolutely nothing in return or bench them so you can see what you may have in a younger player.
August 31st is the real trade deadline. I believe you will see some movement by then. Some will like the moves, some won’t. After all it is still a business.
That is so true Bogey. So true.
Are you related to Double-Bogey?
BTW: A post on Rosecrans’ blog says if Freel is unable to play or needs to be DLed the move the Reds should make is Jay Bruce, not Votto.
They have a more serious outfield situation than the need for another 1b if Freel has to be DLed.
I would think a Bruce appearance the final 2 months would excite the masses.
I’m going to have to disagree with that, Bogey. If major league teams don’t know what they’re getting in Hatteberg and Conine, then they haven’t been paying attention for the last decade and a half. Those guys are established. Other teams know what they can do.
On the other hand, I think it’s foolish NOT TO “just dump older players with absolutely nothing in return or bench them so you can see what you may have in a younger player.”
Conine and Hatteberg, both good guys, aren’t going to be around the next time the Reds are competitive. It’s foolish not to get the young guy who might be able to help you in a future pennant race some pressure-less ABs against major league competition now.
That said, Hatteberg has become one of my favorite players, and I’ll hate to see him go. But it’s time.
I wouldn’t argue with Bruce being promoted, if they will play him four or five times a week.
But Votto needs to come up too.
If you can get something of potential for a player, why wouldn’t you? And if that means waiting a few days into the waiver wire period, so be it.
My wife comes home with the kids from the pool the other night and drops a Whopper meal on the table. Burger King has a special BUY A WHOPPER MEAL, GET A FREE CRISPY CHICKEN SANDWICH!
It’s free, it’s a value and all you have to do is take it.
But the women never take the Whopper and then they complain because we’re getting fat. Go figure.
If I take my merchandise off the shelf and don’t showcase it, what kind of return can I reasonably expect?
Discarding merchandise that I am heavily invested in because I fall in love with the latest fad makes for a very strange and fool hardy business model.
It’s OK to be a fan, but it is still a business. How would you handle the situation if it were your money?
I don’t follow the logic with Votto getting pressure-free ABs. That just tells you he can hit pressure-free ML pitching, not pitching when it matters.
September callups are never a good predictor of what a player can do in a race. Lots of prospects come up and have a good September, but can’t put it together for a full season, and wash out. September stats are about as unreliable as spring training stats.
I agree that Conine and/or Hatteberg need to go to make room for a youth movement, but in the interest of “seeing what Votto can do” that’s not something you’re gonna get a reliable sample on this year. If they bring him up, he needs to stay for a while, not get 20 ABs and get sent to AAA again in the spring.
By the way, I completely agree with Eric’s assessment of how the broadcasters, the media, and the fans turn on young players for rookie mistakes. The list of former Reds who couldn’t perform here but set the world on fire elsewhere is endless.
I agree that Conine and/or Hatteberg need to go to make room for a youth movement, but in the interest of “seeing what Votto can do” that’s not something you’re gonna get a reliable sample on this year. If they bring him up, he needs to stay for a while, not get 20 ABs and get sent to AAA again in the spring.
You think evaluating him on 50 spring ABs is better than evaluating him on two months of playing regularly in the major leagues? Because if he isn’t brought up now, that’s what the Reds will be basing their evaluation on next spring.
And if Votto proves he can hit pressure-free ML pitching, as you described it, I’ll take my chances with him when it matters in the future.
Who are some of those rookies who set the world on fire some place else, with the emphasis on “setting the world on fire?”
And be sure to assert how the broadcasters were the direct cause of their failure with the Reds.
If I take my merchandise off the shelf and don’t showcase it, what kind of return can I reasonably expect?
Discarding merchandise that I am heavily invested in because I fall in love with the latest fad makes for a very strange and fool hardy business model.
These guys have no value, anyway. Certainly nothing approaching what Votto’s value might be, potentially.
Ignoring or delaying the development of a potential high-value asset, in order to chase the possibility of obtaining a much lower-value asset (in return for the old guys) seems like the fool-hardy business model to me.
Votto is going to be of more value than anyone the Reds receive in trade for Hatty or Conine. To me, his development should come first. Now, leaving him in AAA this season doesn’t mean he’s necessarily going to be delayed in progressing toward being a competent major league hitter. But the Reds are wasting a valuable opportunity to push him further along the development track than they might have been able to in other circumstances.
It’s OK to be a fan, but it is still a business. How would you handle the situation if it were your money?
Simple. I would be looking to grow the value of the franchise by turning it into a winner. The Reds long-term chances of success are bettered if Joey Votto turns out to be a good player.
So I play him now to get him some experience against big league pitchers. If that happens, maybe he’ll be better prepared to be that good major league hitter by the time the Reds are competitive again.
The issue of “pressure-free” ABs is a bit of a mis-nomer and the issue of the reliance on Septemmber stats is wholly incumbent upon your schedule.
If the Reds are playing teams in August-September that are fully in the race, then the player’s performance is a decent gauge for heading into the spring.
But if they are playing mostly teams out of the race and using their own call-ups, then the performance is not worth much other than getting familiar with the surroundings. They have usually already faced these pitchers in the minors.
My history may be murky but it seems the Padres have a long history of having great Septembers (being nasty spoilers to the Dodgers or Giants) when the Pads were out of the race and playing for nothing, thus amping expectations into the next season.
And I’ll continue to argue that Votto’s growth is not being retarded if he has to wait a few more weeks.
I agree completely with the post on Rosecrans’ blog that having only three healthy outfielders (regardless of the season’s circumstance) has precedence right now. So does trying to figure out the rotation mess.
I don’t think anyone has argued that his growth would necessarily be retarded, just that the Reds are wasting an opportunity to give him some major league experience when the Reds are just playing out the string. It’s very short-sighted not to bring Votto up now, but it’s not going to be the reason why he makes it in the bigs or doesn’t.
I don’t think it can be argued that a person has a better idea of what it takes to hit major league pitching when he’s been doing it for two months. Let’s get those two months out of the way so that he’ll be acclimated to the environment next year when we’ll be counting on him.
Same with Homer Bailey, for what that’s worth. I agreed with his promotion for precisely that reason.
Showcasing Hatteberg and Conine in August…. well Wayne, you have had 4 freaking months to showcase them, what have you been doing?
The Reds suck. Their manager sucks because he is a puppet for a general manager that sucks even more and doesn’t know how to do his job.
Period.
If you get the kids comfortable with August and September then in their at bats next April they will have more big league experience to fall back on and every AB will be more “pressure-free”. Start the Arb clock. And I am talking from a business perspective; if they gain some experience now and prove they can play, you know what holes you need to fill before next season to make your team competitive and the quicker you begin to win, the more money you can make. A winning team makes happier players, and happier players make happier free agents who will look at Cinci as more than a “B” level stop; winning makes happier fans who will more happily buy tickets and merchandise making the vendors happy. Happier management and a happier fan base will make a happier Marty who will be forced to be less caustic. Then when August 1st comes around again next year I will be talking about October possibilities instead of griping about the state of affairs and looking forward to Spring training. That makes a happier preach. A happier preach makes for a happier preach’s wife. If for no other reason, let’s call up the kids for the sake of my marriage. Let the kids play!!
I am with preach. He needs a happier marriage!
i cant wait till votto and bruce come up
The talk here is as if it’s certain that Hatteburg and Conine will be traded sometime this month. What makes you believe this is a certainty?
What makes you think the offers for them will increase over what it was when Krivisky didn’t trade them last week?
They’re less valuable to other teams now than they were last week b/c they’ll be helping those teams for a shorter period of time.
And any team that is looking at them, knows what they’re capable of them, whether they play much this month or not. Saying they need to be “showcased” doesn’t make much sense to me.
I don’t understand the “showcase” theory on Conine and Hatteberg mainly because it’s nonsense. These guys have been around for 10,000 years.
I also don’t agree with the shorter period of time argument. For one, Hatteberg has a 2008 option for under $2 million. For another, the closer the contending teams get to the playoffs race the more they will be willing to pay guys who might help them.
Still, a week or so after the deadline doesn’t make much difference. I read somewhere that more deals are made now in the waiver period than before the deadline, and another article said they ought to just get rid of the deadline and waiver periods and set it for the middle of August since so many players pass waivers.
Also, saying Krivsky’s done anything to deserve another year (and I understand the argument about needing stability and agree with it) to me is like saying, “Let’s give the captain of the Titanic another ship. He’ll do better next time.”
Anytime you sink Leonardo DiCaprio you deserve another ship.
Great discussion.
My main issue with not trading Hatteberg and/or Conine is not so much with clearing the way for Votto this year, but with clearing the way for him next year and with extracting value from players that don’t figure in future plans. As rickNmd has very reasonably pointed out, three to four weeks more time in AAA this year doesn’t make a big difference, and if service time is a factor, it helps that too.
However, the fact that the Reds let the non-waiver trade deadline pass while keeping Conine AND Hatteberg indicates a few possibilities:
1) The Reds are willing to let Hatteberg walk and Conine retire after the season while receiving little or no draftpick compensation, leaving a free path for Votto to earn the job for 2008.
2) The Reds want to pick up Hatteberg’s option and then ease Votto into the majors with no pressure to give it to him outright. (fearing another Brandon Larson?) Hatteberg could then potentially be trade bait at next year’s deadline.
3) The Reds don’t believe Votto is going to be a viable major-leaguer for whatever reason, and will pick up Hatteberg’s option and shop Votto in a trade package with Weathers or somebody over the winter. (another Ben Broussard, maybe?)
No matter what the plans are for Votto and Hatteberg, the soon-to-retire Conine should have been traded and hopefully still can be. Maybe Giambi’s return from injury won’t last long? Or perhaps the Mets want him for some unfathomable reason?
If Conine and Hatte aren’t traded, it reflects a major failure by Krivsky. It’s the equivalent of taking skee-ball tickets home from Chuck-E-Cheeze. Even if all you can get is a plastic spider, it’s better than nothing.
No matter what you think of Krivsky, I don’t think you can believe he’s that incompetent.
My take on Votto: You simply don’t know whether he’s going to be able to handle the 1b job next year. You need to figure that out – and figuring it out before the off-season lets you come up with a Plan B.
Will you have a definitive read on Votto from two months of play? No. But whether they’re are high-pressure, low-pressure, 150 major league plate appearances is much better information than anything else you’ve got.
The point of calling Votto up now isn’t development, as much as it is evaluation. And salvaging something out of this season.
Seriously, Preach is my new favorite person alive for today.
Rick, thanks for pointing out that Hatte has an option year. I had totally forgotten that. I think he’s probably worth the $1.75M (he’s going to decline quickly at some point, but I don’t think it’s 2008).
That might change my opinion about keeping him around. I’d still really like to evaluate Votto, though.
Thanks, Doug.
By the way Chris, From having a five year old I can TOTALLY relate to that Chuck E Cheez thing. I still have some of those stupid tickets in my sock drawer, knowing that I will probably never set foot in that 21st century version of Dante’s vision, but I just can’t throw them away. It’s a bargaining chip with no value. Shoulda got the orange spider when I had a chance. c’mon, wayne, at least get us a spider.
I NEED SOME HELP
On Sunday, August 12 after the game Josh Hamilton will be sharing his testimony and my wife’s favorite band (Mercyme) will be playing. I would love to take her to the game, but being that it’s on a Sunday, and I am a pastor, makes that impossible. Does anyone know of any way I can get a copy of the post game festivities? I would be very grateful for any help.
Didn’t mean to hijack the thread, but I didn’t know where it would be appropriate to put it.
Thanks.
I don’t mean to be rude or a smartass, but you guys act like Krivsky and the Reds can operate the organization like they are running a fantasy team.
These are real people and real players with real contracts. You don’t just release an asset like Conine who still has some value and can still be traded, even if it’s just for organizational depth. The value of that is always underestimated.
You also simply can’t option him to the minors (if he even has any options left).
You start treating class guys like Conine who have had distinguished careers and are well respected around the league like garbage, what desireable player is going to want to come to Cincinnati?
The Conine situation will work itself out and Votto will be up soon enough. But then what do you do with Hatteburg? Decline his option? I wouldn’t release that production.
A voice of reason, Steve!
Trading a guy b/c he’s 41 and your team isn’t going anywhere this year is not treating him “like garbage,” Steve. It also is not “like they are running a fantasy team.” It just makes sense.
Conine knows that too.
By your reasoning, it sounds like you’d never make any trades, ever.
Dan:
I really don’t think you read what I wrote, or if you did you just took out of it what you wanted to take out of it.
I said you can’t simply release or demote a guy like Conine, for the reasons I stated. I also said he had value at some level in a trade, and that it will work itself out soon enough.
In fact, I would trade Conine and would have done so before the deadline. But since it didn’t happen, it only makes sense to hold on to an asset until you can get value out of it.
How many big league AB’s will Votto REALISTICALLY miss out on in the next 1-3 weeks? It’s not exactly going to stunt his development.
If you want everyone to be precise in responding to your posts – and that’s fair – you should probably avoid starting them by attributing statements to the broad “you guys,” especially when not one soul in this comment thread actually made the statement you’re refuting.
I just spent 5 minutes re-reading this thread, to see who was advocating releasing or demoting Conine. Nobody was, it turns out.
I have to agree with one sentiment on this thread: I think the Reds should do everything in their power to ensure that preach has the happiest marriage possible.
Enquirer has a rather lengthy article today on Joey.
Chris:
What does this statement by Chad mean:
On the other hand, I think it’s foolish NOT TO “just dump older players with absolutely nothing in return or bench them so you can see what you may have in a younger player.”
It sure sounds like dumping Conine is exactly what Chad is advocating.
Did I read that wrong?
Thanks for the sentiment, Chad.
My wife and I own a siamese cattery and she takes the business very seriously. There is a device that you can acquire that will enable you to keep your male cats who are not fixed in the house without the problem of spraying and she was interested in getting one. Why do I bring this up, you ask? I just want to offer a little piece of advice to anyone who wants a clean computer. Trust me on this one: Never, ever google the term “stud pants”. Please learn from our mistake….
At lease it didn’t happen at the church.
Tampa, I can’t make heads or tails of it.