Loading ...This is the big deadline trade?
The Cincinnati Reds on Saturday acquired infielder Jorge Cantu for a pair of minor-league pitchers and future considerations.
Tampa Bay also sent minor league outfielder Shaun Cumberland to the Reds for righthander Calvin Medlook and lefthander Brian Shackelford.
Cantu, 25, batted .286 with 28 home runs and a club-record 117 RBI for the Devil Rays in 2005. His batting average dropped to .249 and he hit just 14 homers with 62 RBI last season.
Cantu hit just .207 with no home runs and four RBI in 25 games this year and will be optioned to Class AAA Louisville.
I really don’t know what to think about this deal. Cantu had an outstanding season at the major league level, at age 23 no less, but has been terrible since. Plus, he refuses to take a walk. And his minor league numbers look pretty bad.
I guess he’s worth taking a flyer on — the Reds really gave up little in exchange — but Devil Ray fans are happy to see the guy go. If you read this description of Cantu (from a Devil Rays blog that I read occasionally), he sounds a lot like Danny Graves, i.e., he plays awful and blames everyone else.
We’ll see, I guess. My worry is that Cantu is the Reds next third baseman after they trade Edwin Encarnacion for crappy middle relievers.
UPDATE: Check out Justin’s analysis here. Be sure to read the entire post for a great breakdown of the trade, but here’s the conclusion:
I don’t see much of anything to be excited about with Cumberland, so Cantu is the only booty here. And the most attractive thing about him is that he is still young, and already has shown decent performance in the major leagues in the past. So maybe he’ll somehow put it together and be a nice source of power off the bench or as a part-time starter. Unfortunately, his defense at 2B and 3B has been atrocious, which means that his future probably lies at either first base or left field. And at those positions, his power-only offense looks, at best, average…and probably well below average. Still, in a limited role, I can see him proving useful.
In terms of the cost that it took to get him, I can’t get too upset about losing Shackelford. But Medlock seems to me to be a legitimate contender for a bullpen spot next year, and goodness knows they could use some new arms out there. He still might not have made the staff out of spring training next year, but he absolutely would have represented some quality organizational depth as we opened the season.
So I don’t like this deal very much. It’s not that I hate Cantu or even that I see this as a lopsided deal in terms of the talent being exchanged. The issue I have is that Medlock is precisely the kind of player that I’d like to see the Reds hoarding right now–he’s young, clearly has some talent, and could provide a boost to the bullpen as early as next season. I’m not saying that the kid is a future closer by any means. But it won’t surprise me if he’s performing well in a middle relief or set up role in the near future. And that’s clearly something that the Reds need. Furthermore, it bugs me that this deal seems to be have moved the Reds away from, not toward, the goal of improved pitching and defense, even if only a small amount.
Good points all.
take it easy. nobody said this was the big deadline trade. they still have 2 more days so see what happens than make your expert analysis.
I would imagine that the Reds aren’t done dealing.
I don\’t like giving up Medlock when we\’re hurting to badly for bullpen help, but it as apparent that the Reds didn\’t value him, leaving him in AA for at least 1/2 season longer than they should have. But why trade away a commodity that you\’re sorely lacking? Where does Cantu fit in with the Reds? It\’s almost like Bowden\’s fixation on 5 tool players, whether they had a spot here or not.
It’s really not all that hard to understand.
Cantu is 25 years old, he has four years in the big leagues and has shown power, he can play all infield positions, he gives them a badly needed RH power bat off the bench, and most of all he gives them an additional infielder since Castro will go on the DL, Lopez is on the DL, who knows how long Gonzo will be out, and we know Conine won’t be back next year.
The statement about deadline deals was tongue-in-cheek, John.
It’s exactly like Bowden’s fixation with 5 tool OFs. Except Krivsky gets a big ole woody over utility IFs.
Freel
Castro
Keppinger
Lopez
Gil
Cantu
Bellhorn
Herr
Bannon
Machado
Cruz
I mean really, if you can find a rhyme or reason for this fixation, someone let us know. The disturbing part is, he let the best of collection, Brandon Harris, go to Tampa for nothing. I hope Medlock is lights out in Tampa.
This is a good deal for the Reds. I’m a lifelong Reds fan who grew up in Huntington, but have lived in Tampa for the last 12 years and have followed the Rays closely.
Cantu was hurt all of last year and missed most of spring training and the early part of the year and never got in a groove.
Like most players not named A-Rod, he has holes in his game. He’s below average defensively — mostly due to a lack of range — but he can hit. He’s over-agressive at the plate but if he gets his pitch he mashes it. And he hits when it counts.
Honestly, I don’t understand the angst over this. Cantu’s at least as good as Encarnacion at the plate (I think given equal opportunity he’s better and he’s proven it) and he can play numerous postions.
This reminds of last year when everyone was worried that Phillips was going to take AB’s away from Freel.
I say let it play out. The Reds gave up very little for Cantu and Cumberland, who’s still only 22 and playing at AA.
Shackleford won’t be missed and I think most fans over value Medlock, who’s behind on the organizational depth chart similiar type pitchers Burton, McBeth, Salmon, Coffey and Majewski from the right side.
. . . And fairly certain Krivsky’s fixation on middle infielders is clearly what he sees and we we clearly see from the current state of the big league roster is a dire lack of depth in the organization.
That info is readily available on a roster sheet, not stats sheet.
Tampa, I don’t disagree with much of your post. We probably got the best of the deal. However…
No way in hell he’s a better long-term bet than Encarnacion. Worse offensively and defensively. Cantu’s on-base “skills” are non-existent, and that’s why he’s bottomed out as a hitter. Pitchers know they don’t have to throw him a strike.
And I don’t see any angst over this at all. It’s a nothing move for spare parts. Cantu is a bench player, at best, and the Reds gave up very little to get him. He can’t play any defense, but he plays it badly at several different positions, so that raises his value a bit, if that makes sense.
As bench players, I have no problem with Cantu and Keppinger. They’re both a million times better than the Juan Castros and Pedro Lopezes of the world.
(They’re Norris Hopper types that can help a team off the bench, but are overmatched in a starting role.)
I agree, Randy. If Cantu is a Castro replacement off the bench, the Reds are a better team. He’s better than anyone the Reds currently have on the bench.
As a starter, no thanks. He had a great year a couple of years ago, but it looks more and more like a fluke.
UNLESS he can learn how to reach base on a consistent basis. If he could do that, his power makes him a good little player, although I don’t know where you play him.
In the end, though, I don’t have a problem with the deal, unless it means they are going to ship Encarnacion out the door in order to play Cantu at 3B. I think that makes the Reds a worse team.
It’s not really correct to say “Cantu can play all the infield positions.” Probably more accurate to say, “Cantu is willing to play all infield positions.” His range factors are significantly below average for each position, even with the boost playing behind lousy pitchers (who strike out fewer batters, and have to pitch more 9th innings) give the RF. Encarnacion, for all the complaints, is above average. Cantu has a 96 lifetime OPS+, Encarnacion 93. Slight edge there to Cantu.
He sounds like Brandon Phillips of the Cleveland Indians.
Randy:
I think you’re not being fair to Cantu. Let’s compare Cantu to Encarnacion using 2006 as an example.
AB’s
Cantu 413
Encarnacion 406
HR’s
Cantu 14
Encarnacion 15
RBI’s
Cantu 62
Encarnacion 72
Walks
Cantu 26
Encarnacion 41
That was Cantu’s BAD year and Encarnacion’s GOOD year.
There one year apart in age and light years apart in actual big league production, with Encarnacion having the advantage of playing in the best hitters park in the big leagues.
You guys act like Encarnacion is some on-base, moneyball freak. The guys has walked 28 times in 306 AB’s this year. Come on!! I like the guy, but his trend isn’t any different than Cantu’s. He’s slugging a measly .369 for the year, which wouldn’t be that bad for a SS, but WELL below average for a 3B.
I’m not saying to write Encarnacion off and I think it would be a mistake to trade him, but I think it’s going to be interesting next spring to watch and see how Encarnacion, Cantu and Keppinger battle it out for playing time.
Randy:
God forbid if you try to talk any sense on this board about Encarnacion.
Here is Baseball America’s take on the trade. Sounds like they aren’t too high on Medlock. The Reds certainly don’t need anymore fly-ball pitchers.
http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/majors/news/264573.html
You guys act like Encarnacion is some on-base, moneyball freak. The guys has walked 28 times in 306 AB’s this year.
Which is exactly what he looks like when compared to Cantu who is a perfect example of a free swinging, hacking, out machine. See their career numbers below.
PLYR AB BB AVG OBP SLG
EE 926 89 .259 .339 .429
JC 1242 59 .272 .308 .448
Cantu’s OBP reeks, he will be below average offensively unless he can make 2005 his norm. He has to hit .300+ with 25+ HRs to be good, since he doesn’t know what a BB is. In 2005 he had an incredible 19 BBs in 600+ PAs.
EE is about league average in BB and OBP. His power lapse this year is a matter of concern, but I still have a hard time seeing Cantu as competition for him, especially since his glove is very questionable also.
It’s funny that people said the exact same thing about the Brandon Phillips trade that they are saying about Cantu. He’s a backup. He doesn’t have any patience at the plate. There isn’t a spot for him.
Maybe people overvalue Phillips a bit too much. But nobody on the team is more overvalued by the fans than EdE. Some people act like he is a season or two away from Cabrera numbers. IF Cantu plays primarily at third base which is a big IF I don’t think you can argue that you lose that much.
EdE hasn’t come close to touching 28 HR, 117 RBI, .286./.311/.497. And there defense is spot on as bad and bad.
Still, even if the Reds did bring in a guy like Cabrera half the fan base would be ticked off primarily because EdE would lose PT.
From what we’re reading now, it appears Cantu is going to get playing time at 1b, meaning potentially the right-handed power bat they have been missing.
I like Cantu and I think he will be a great addition from the bench. I followed him quite closely since ‘03 and I think he still has some potential that has not been scratched yet. He’s still young, and as was noted earlier, we are down a couple of middle infielders for various reasons. I did wince a little when we lost Medlock. I would have liked have seen him in Spring training next year battling for a spot. I think Cantu will be a good addition and will make a decent impact with the club and I’m glad we have him….of course, I was on record saying that about Saarloos as well, but I guess I can’t always be wrong….
Preach, this is just a guess but is it possible the Devil Rays fans (all 6 of them) are claiming THEY got hosed on this deal?
Tom:
OK, you got me, in 2005 Cantu had less than 20 walks. But he had 117 freakin’ RBI’s.
I guess if Cantu would have taken, what, 50 walks that have been OK? Screw the actual run production, I guess.
It’s funny that you say Cantu will be well below average offensively, then you throw up the career stats and the ONLY category Encarnacion leads in is OBP. Not slugging, not average, not RBI’s, not runs scored, not, well, anything. At all.
If we could be honest about it, you could remove the names of the two guys and just throw up their career stats and you would have to be crazy not to take Cantu.
As I said, I like Encarnacion, but he is incredibly overvalued around here.
Maybe he wouldn’t be overvalued if the Reds management would quit jacking him around…put him in, leave him alone, let him play. Have some patience with a young player…
The reason they don’t have patience is because he makes at least one boneheaded play a night. After a while . . .
Bill:
It’s the big leagues. You have to produce. Especially a guy like Encarnacion, who’s NOT a rookie and has nearly a 1000 big league AB’s.
I mean, how much better is he going to get? Seriously. What is that everyone around here sees in him that I don’t?
He doesn’t hit for power, and hasn’t throughout his career.
He’s never going to win a batting title, or a Gold Glove.
He doesn’t run well or with instincts.
His throwing mechanics are screwed up and inconsistent.
He’s not a patient hitter. Tom’s comments aside, the stats bear that out.
My opinion is that the best we can hope for out of Encarnacion is for him to have a David Bell/Bill Meuller/Ty Wiggington type career.
That’s not all bad, but doesn’t put him into the “lock for the lineup” category. The Reds need competition here.
What is that everyone around here sees in him that I don’t?
I don’t know, but Encarnacion has an excellent record of hitting at every level. Cantu’s minor league numbers were not good at all.
In Cantu’s defense, his only good year occurred in the majors, and you can’t discount that. But when you consider that his minor league numbers weren’t good, and that he hasn’t been able to replicate his good season, you have to start wondering if that season was a fluke.
My personal opinion is that pitchers have learned he has NO plate discipline, so they know they don’t have to throw him a strike. Until Cantu shows he’s learned and exhibits some plate discipline, he’s a bench player and nothing more.
Encarnacion has hit at every level, but he’s been jerked around like crazy by the current administration. I feel very confident, based on his past, that EdE would be just fine if they’d leave the guy alone and let him play. That’s just my opinion, though.
By the way, Tampa Red, I wanted to thank you for disagreeing without being disagreeable.
I don’t agree with part of your thesis, but it’s fun to discuss/argue it. Some people (on both sides of this and other arguments) act like they are the smartest guy in the room and can’t be wrong about anything, and feel like they have to be condescending.
I am trying to always remember that we’re all Reds fans, whether we agree or disagree. You seem to be doing the same. We all want the same thing: a world championship.
Hear, hear, RagTag.
If we could be honest about it, you could remove the names of the two guys and just throw up their career stats and you would have to be crazy not to take Cantu.
Ragtag explains it very well above:
In Cantu’s defense, his only good year occurred in the majors, and you can’t discount that. But when you consider that his minor league numbers weren’t good, and that he hasn’t been able to replicate his good season, you have to start wondering if that season was a fluke.
When I look at Cantu’s numbers, his 2005 and 2006 seasons stand out like a sore thumb. I don’t consider him the same class of hitter as Edwin, since Edwin has done it at every level. Their major league numbers may look similar, but there is much more evidence that Edwin will be the better hitter going forward.
I actually like the Cantu signing, I just have no faith the Reds will use him correctly, and he does not seem to be Krivsky’s type of player at all. Decent pop, questionable glove.
If they catch lightning in a bottle and Cantu can start doing what he did in 2005/2006 we will have something good. If not, he’s yet another lump in the middle infielder dung pile. Of course, if he can return to form, he’d be yet another great reason to dump Gonzalez and shift Phillips back over to SS.
It’ll sure be interesting to see how Cantu pans out.
I guess we (all who commented) just view Encarnacion differently. I see EE as being a solid big leaguer along the lines of Ty Wiggington or David Bell and others see him as a potential All-Star who just needs time to develop.
It’s early, but it seems like the Reds aren’t looking at Cantu as a 3B, but I think that’s a mistake. The Reds need competition at 3rd base, and Freel and Keppinger don’t count.
I view the 3rd base situation no differently than I viewed the 2b situation last year. There was a lot of hand-wringing when Krivsky got Philips last year, but the Reds needed more, not less, competition there, and they need it at 3rd base now and into next year.
Honestly, EE hasn’t had a good year and blaming it on his handling by management doesn’t serve anyone well, including EE. He’s a big leaguer and needs to perform like one. If he doesn’t (and he hasn’t) then increase, not decrease, the competition.
What’s wrong with that?