I wouldnt be surprised if he got a first place vote or two though. He wont win, but with no runaway winner this year, a guy who had the most wins and most strikeouts could get a first place vote or two.
I will take that for a team that has been so starved for good pitching for so long.
I wondered as well when the last time the Reds had two starters getting votes. So I decided to try and find out if that has EVER happened
The last time any Reds pitchers received any votes was
1995 when Pete Schourek, who actually came in 2nd in the Cy Young voting got 55 points (No first place votes) Maddux won by a landslide basically getting a perfect score with 28 first place votes and 140 points, which is the max.
1993 Rijo came in 5th in Cy Young voting with 8 points, no 1st place votes
1991 Rijo came in 4th with 13 points, 1, 1st place vote, and Glavine won by a landslide.
So that’s the last few times a single Red got votes but TWO Reds?
Reds pitching has sucked for 30-50 years. I’d have to go back pre 1970 if I was guessing
Seaver and Soto never had great seasons the same year and didn’t overlap enough
Ha, while looking this up and looking at other voting I was looking at the NL MVP voting from 1976. 6!!! Reds received votes, 4 finished in the top 10, in order Morgan, Foster, Rose, Griffey, Eastwick, and Geronimo. How did Geronimo get votes and not Concepcion and Bench that year? And Eastwick got votes and not Zachry?
AH HA! Found it! In 1974, 3(!) Reds received Cy Young votes
Billingham got 8 points and finished 6th
Gullett got 8 points and finished 7th
and
Carroll got 2 points and finished 8th
Here is an interesting comparison since we aren’t far off having 3 very good pitchers like ‘74 and I think an argument could be made that we had BETTER pitching on the whole THIS season than in ‘74
Top pitching teams in 1974
RSAA RSAA
1 Braves 111
2 A’s 97
3 Royals 59
4 Dodgers 48
5 Cardinals 44
6 Expos 33
7 Mets 29
8 Red Sox 28
9 Giants 27
10 Reds 21
Top 10 pitching team this past season
RSAA RSAA
1 Tigers 106
2 Twins 84
3 Astros 78
4 Dodgers 59
T5 Diamondbacks 54
T5 Blue Jays 54
7 Reds 53
8 Padres 49
9 Angels 48
T10 A’s 27
T10 Rockies 27
Now who were the main contributors for the Reds these two seasons. RSAA in ()
One difference is that while the 74 team had Billingham who had a bad year (he has a good year and the Reds win the division) but this years team gave 71 starts to Ramirez, Milton, Mays, Williams, and Claussen.
Of course, the difference was that in 1974 the Reds had the 2nd best offense in baseball behind only the Dodgers and in 2006 was not even among the top 20 in baseball.
You nailed it! This is exactly what I was trying to say when I mentioned the 71 starts by Ramirez, Milton, Mays, Williams, and Claussen.
There was clearly less deviation on the 74 pitching staff than the 2006 staff.
This is something that I think is commonly overlooked. It’s not always about the stars. It can very well be about who your #4 and #5 starter are and who it is that you have pitching the 7th if you’re starter didn’t last. If those guys are awful, like the 2006 Reds even having incredible performances by Arroyo and Harang can’t save you
I don’t have my copy of Big Red Dynasty handy, but the pitching staff of the BRM was not mediocre at all. They were better than league average almost every year of the ’70’s.
They were most assuredly helped by the strong defense up the middle of Bench, Concepcion, Morgan, and Geronimo, but their starters were usually solid and they had a very good bullpen.
1970 3rd well above average
1971 15th average
1972 13th average
1973 18th below average
1974 10th average
1975 4th above average
1976 13th average
1977 22nd awful
1978 17th bad
1979 14th average
The 70s as a whole the Reds rank 12th and average.
and again, a reminder, this past season the pitching was better than the hitting
mike
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I wouldnt be surprised if he got a first place vote or two though. He wont win, but with no runaway winner this year, a guy who had the most wins and most strikeouts could get a first place vote or two.
I will take that for a team that has been so starved for good pitching for so long.
Hey, you’ve got to like two of your guys getting votes. When was the last time that happened for Reds starters?
I wondered as well when the last time the Reds had two starters getting votes. So I decided to try and find out if that has EVER happened
The last time any Reds pitchers received any votes was
1995 when Pete Schourek, who actually came in 2nd in the Cy Young voting got 55 points (No first place votes) Maddux won by a landslide basically getting a perfect score with 28 first place votes and 140 points, which is the max.
1993 Rijo came in 5th in Cy Young voting with 8 points, no 1st place votes
1991 Rijo came in 4th with 13 points, 1, 1st place vote, and Glavine won by a landslide.
So that’s the last few times a single Red got votes but TWO Reds?
Reds pitching has sucked for 30-50 years. I’d have to go back pre 1970 if I was guessing
Seaver and Soto never had great seasons the same year and didn’t overlap enough
Ha, while looking this up and looking at other voting I was looking at the NL MVP voting from 1976. 6!!! Reds received votes, 4 finished in the top 10, in order Morgan, Foster, Rose, Griffey, Eastwick, and Geronimo. How did Geronimo get votes and not Concepcion and Bench that year? And Eastwick got votes and not Zachry?
AH HA! Found it! In 1974, 3(!) Reds received Cy Young votes
Billingham got 8 points and finished 6th
Gullett got 8 points and finished 7th
and
Carroll got 2 points and finished 8th
mike
May we have days like when Gullett, Billingham, and Carroll pitched for the Reds! Thanks, Mike.
Here is an interesting comparison since we aren’t far off having 3 very good pitchers like ‘74 and I think an argument could be made that we had BETTER pitching on the whole THIS season than in ‘74
Top pitching teams in 1974
RSAA RSAA
1 Braves 111
2 A’s 97
3 Royals 59
4 Dodgers 48
5 Cardinals 44
6 Expos 33
7 Mets 29
8 Red Sox 28
9 Giants 27
10 Reds 21
Top 10 pitching team this past season
RSAA RSAA
1 Tigers 106
2 Twins 84
3 Astros 78
4 Dodgers 59
T5 Diamondbacks 54
T5 Blue Jays 54
7 Reds 53
8 Padres 49
9 Angels 48
T10 A’s 27
T10 Rockies 27
Now who were the main contributors for the Reds these two seasons. RSAA in ()
1974: Carroll(16),Gullett(14),Norman(8),Kirby(7),Borbon(5),Eastwick(3)
2006: Arroyo(41),Harang(28),Coffey(11), Weathers(11), Schoenweis(7),Belisle(6), Guardado(6)
One difference is that while the 74 team had Billingham who had a bad year (he has a good year and the Reds win the division) but this years team gave 71 starts to Ramirez, Milton, Mays, Williams, and Claussen.
Of course, the difference was that in 1974 the Reds had the 2nd best offense in baseball behind only the Dodgers and in 2006 was not even among the top 20 in baseball.
mike
Another difference is if you take away the top 6, according to your stats:
1974: -32 RSAA
2006: -51 RSAA
i.e., the 2006 back end was *much* worse. But we knew that.
1974: -32 RSAA
2006: -51 RSAA
You nailed it! This is exactly what I was trying to say when I mentioned the 71 starts by Ramirez, Milton, Mays, Williams, and Claussen.
There was clearly less deviation on the 74 pitching staff than the 2006 staff.
This is something that I think is commonly overlooked. It’s not always about the stars. It can very well be about who your #4 and #5 starter are and who it is that you have pitching the 7th if you’re starter didn’t last. If those guys are awful, like the 2006 Reds even having incredible performances by Arroyo and Harang can’t save you
mike
Those 1970s staffs were pretty thoroughly mediocre, rescued by sterling defense by the likes of guys such as Geronimo and Concepcion.
Yes, but I will still be pleased to be mediocre in some areas and still be regarded as one of the great dynasties.
I don’t have my copy of Big Red Dynasty handy, but the pitching staff of the BRM was not mediocre at all. They were better than league average almost every year of the ’70’s.
They were most assuredly helped by the strong defense up the middle of Bench, Concepcion, Morgan, and Geronimo, but their starters were usually solid and they had a very good bullpen.
Reds 70s pitching ranks (in all of baseball)
1970 3rd well above average
1971 15th average
1972 13th average
1973 18th below average
1974 10th average
1975 4th above average
1976 13th average
1977 22nd awful
1978 17th bad
1979 14th average
The 70s as a whole the Reds rank 12th and average.
and again, a reminder, this past season the pitching was better than the hitting
mike